NCAA?

[plansrme]

I am not particularly looking for advice on my kid and her swimming career, but from what I have seen--and obliviously I have not looked at every Div 1 school's conference championship times (when everyone is shaved and tapered), but I have looked at a couple, and those times are not in the ballpark. I have looked at some NAIA schools as well, and the times were laughable. So yes, everyone can swim somewhere, but I would not use that chart as a guide to where one is likely to end up. I have not seen kids on my daughter's team get hung up on divisions or wash out after a year or any of those other horror stories, though I do not doubt that it happens. It is just not the norm in our circle.

Terri

[Lolly]

I am not particularly looking for advice on my kid and her swimming career, but from what I have seen--and obliviously I have not looked at every Div 1 school's conference championship times (when everyone is shaved and tapered), but I have looked at a couple, and those times are not in the ballpark. I have looked at some NAIA schools as well, and the times were laughable. So yes, everyone can swim somewhere, but I would not use that chart as a guide to where one is likely to end up. I have not seen kids on my daughter's team get hung up on divisions or wash out after a year or any of those other horror stories, though I do not doubt that it happens. It is just not the norm in our circle.

Terri

 

 

That's the thing, you aren't going to see all of the swimmers at the div 1 championship meet. You are going to see their best.

[Lolly]

 

What happens when they cut the swimming program with no warning? Univ. of Maryland just dropped men's and women's swimming and diving the year after completing a beautiful new aquatics center.

 

From the articles I read, it looked like swimmers on scholarship were allowed to keep them; but if they wanted to swim, they had to transfer somewhere else. There was one swimmer for whom it was the second time his college team had folded.

 

I believe that depends on the agreement between school and student. Some contracts are for 4 years. Others are renewed yearly. I can only find where div 1 schools can offer multiple years of scholarship. I specifically questioned the athletic director of the div 2 school one of my girls is looking at, I have his guarantee in writing that if the sport is cut my dd will keep her scholarship money (even if he has to personally pay it). He thought it was funny that I asked him to put it in writing when he made the comment. No idea if it is legal or not, but hey, it is something! I actually hope dd doesn't chose that school. That was also a consideration when the other dd chose a div 3 school. All money is tied to academics, and the coach is very behind the academics being met! He knows that is the real reason they are in school and has no problems with them missing practice for class or studying. That is not the case in div. 1 schools I have known kids to attend.

[Blue Hen]

I'm working on filling out these NCAA worksheets and am at a loss for the 'Types of Assessment Used' section. Having a kid who would be play a sport in college was never, ever in the plans back in 9th and 10th grade. Then DS discovered shooting, and that he is really, really good --- right now he shoots better than the vast majority of Division 1 collegiate shooters .....

 

I'm jumping through the NCAA hoops, filling out the worksheets but what do I to put into this section? Often we just had conversations to determine his understanding, or as in math he just kept doing problems until he demonstrated mastery.

[swimmermom3]

I disagree with this as a hard and fast rule. My daughter is young, but swimming is her life. If she is ever going to get through college, she is going to do it to stay on swim team. We will be looking at the team, coach and pool first and then crossing our fingers that she can get in.

 

Terri

 

 

Terri, swimming was my youngest's life. He had been doing the six day a week drill for a couple of years and was a Sectional swimmer as a flyer and backstroker. He blew out his shoulder and that came to an end. The shoulder has healed nicely and as best can be told with no scar tissue. The transition was a learning experience for us. Ds had schools picked out starting at ten years old. Plan Bs are good. We've seen a few dreams go down the pike as bodies matured and times got much faster. The passion for swimming is still there for my son, but the focus has shifted to swimming well at a lower level with a full-range of motion and without pain. I am not negating your daughter's dreams in any way, but want to add perspective. Swimming cannot be all she has.

[swimmermom3]

What I am saying is just don't get hung up on swimming in any particular division. THere are kids on my kids' team who are so caught up in having to swim for a division 1 or 2 team that they don't care about anything else. THey cannot believe my dd has signed with a division 3 when she has times that could get her into div. 1. They think it is beneath them. (She chose it because the school has a 94% acceptance rate to the graduate school area she is aiming for, gives good academic scholarships, has small classes, and has a coach and kids on the team that she clicked with.) Most of these kids if accepted on a division one team will not see much competition time. They won't receive much coaching. They will just be a body who has to be at practice.

 

Honestly, your dd is 12?, things are going to change in the next several years. In high school, most kids realize that swimming is not going to be their life. It is something they can continue, but it will be in a different realm than it is now. When she gets to the point you need to be looking at colleges, list the schools that have teams. There are schools in all categories of academics with swim teams! Then, look at the schools academics. Then, look at the team and the pool. Being a good swimmer can certainly open doors to schools where she might not stand a chance otherwise, but do you really want her to be in the bottom 5% academically? Try not to chose a school based solely on swimming. It is a recipe for misery. I've witnessed that mistake many times as I've watched kids graduate and move on, only to return home within the year.

 

Lolly, I missed your post earlier. This is great information and congratulations to your dd.

 

We have seen both sides of the fence in our club. Scholarships for our elite club swimmers are the norm. Completing all four years while swimming is a different story. One young woman went to a Division I team full ride. She was on the U.S. National Team and went to Olympic Trials. All of this is great, but there is still a life after swimming at some point. She is going on to graduate school and the school/student/swimmer fit has been very good.

 

One of our male swimmers, formerly one of the fastest age-group sprinters in the country, followed the same trajectory but returned home his sophomore year, I believe. The school and the academics were not a good fit. What do kids do in this situation? Often they help coach at their former clubs. It is a far cry from the earlier glory days. Don't get me wrong, we need coaches and this may be their calling, but back-up plans are a must. Those schools first and foremost must be the right academic fit. If you fail classes because you can't keep pace with the practices and schoolwork, it won't matter how fast you are in the long-run. You still have to be prepared for life after any collegiate sport.

[Lolly]

Lolly, I missed your post earlier. This is great information and congratulations to your dd.

 

We have seen both sides of the fence in our club. Scholarships for our elite club swimmers are the norm. Completing all four years while swimming is a different story. One young woman went to a Division I team full ride. She was on the U.S. National Team and went to Olympic Trials. All of this is great, but there is still a life after swimming at some point. She is going on to graduate school and the school/student/swimmer fit has been very good.

 

One of our male swimmers, formerly one of the fastest age-group sprinters in the country, followed the same trajectory but returned home his sophomore year, I believe. The school and the academics were not a good fit. What do kids do in this situation? Often they help coach at their former clubs. It is a far cry from the earlier glory days. Don't get me wrong, we need coaches and this may be their calling, but back-up plans are a must. Those schools first and foremost must be the right academic fit. If you fail classes because you can't keep pace with the practices and schoolwork, it won't matter how fast you are in the long-run. You still have to be prepared for life after any collegiate sport.

 

You also have to realize that some majors and swimming will not work together at some schools. I have seen swimmer after swimmer from our team who were recruited to our local big Div 1 school (they usually take 2 a year) last only one semester because their class schedule could not be done with the swim schedule. They are NOT allowed to miss practices. (Something insane like only 1 missed practice a season.) What do you do when you are a theater major who has play practice? Fail your class or be kicked off the team? Nursing? good luck, the schedule conflicts with practice. Watching this happen year after year kept my girls from even considering it.

[swimmermom3]

You also have to realize that some majors and swimming will not work together at some schools. I have seen swimmer after swimmer from our team who were recruited to our local big Div 1 school (they usually take 2 a year) last only one semester because their class schedule could not be done with the swim schedule. They are NOT allowed to miss practices. (Something insane like only 1 missed practice a season.) What do you do when you are a theater major who has play practice? Fail your class or be kicked off the team? Nursing? good luck, the schedule conflicts with practice. Watching this happen year after year kept my girls from even considering it.

 

 

I thought too that when we talk to about someone getting a "full ride" in swimming that is as long as they keep their academic eligibility correct? And that is on a year to year basis? Maybe I am thinking of an athletic scholarship versus an academic scholarship? The young woman I referenced above had a strong academic performance record whereas the young man had swimming and swimming only.

[Lolly]

I thought too that when we talk to about someone getting a "full ride" in swimming that is as long as they keep their academic eligibility correct? And that is on a year to year basis? Maybe I am thinking of an athletic scholarship versus an academic scholarship? The young woman I referenced above had a strong academic performance record whereas the young man had swimming and swimming only.

 

The academic merit scholarships are usually for 4 years if academic levels are met. Different academic scholarships have different requirements; some have to be reapplied for every year. Athletic scholarships depend on the individual agreements. Some can be increased/decreased based on performance. Some are set over the 4 yrs. Some are yearly. There aren't many full ride scholarships in swimming. Normally if someone is getting a full ride, it is a combination of athletic and academic scholarships.

[Corraleno]

Then what exactly is the $70 for?

 

So, they get everyone. who thinks as a freshman or sophomore, that they would like to play in college to pay the fee, but only do the work for a few of them?

It's an even bigger scam than I thought it was.

 

According to the stats I've read, ~160,000 HS students register with NCAA (and pay the $70 fee) every year. Only ~60,000 of those actually end up playing at a D1/D2 school. They will not even look at your file until a D1/D2 coach requests that they start the process, so they are making up to $7,000,000/yr from students who register but never end up playing.

 

NCAA say that the review process can take up to 6 months, so if you wait until you know you have a D1/D2 coach interested, that could be summer before Sr year, at which point you might not even get your preliminary approval until Christmas, when ED applications are over.

 

So, really, you need to find a D1/D2 coach somewhere (even if it's not a school you really care about) who is willing to request a review, and send in all your material and your registration fee around January of Junior year, so that you can be sure you'll have preliminary approval by summer, when most coaches are deciding how to use their recruitment slots.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Regarding using totally different transcripts/course titles for NCAA and admissions, I found a description of the eligibility report that gets sent to coaches, and it says that the back of the report does list each of the courses that they used to determine eligibility, along with the grades. It also lists the SAT/ACT scores sent to NCAA, so if anyone was planning to use the "freebie" report for NCAA, with the idea of using score choice to later select the best score(s) to send admissions, be aware that scores sent to NCAA will get to the colleges as well.

 

What I haven't been able to figure out, despite investing waaaaaay too many hours researching these stupid issues, is whether the report sent to the coaches stays with the coaches, or ends up in the student's main file.

 

I think I will either try to vaguely match the two titles (e.g. Epic Poetry in World Lit on admissions transcript = World Lit on NCAA transcript; European Philosophy: Descartes to Derrida = Philosophy; etc.), or else use really generic titles like English 9, 10, 11, and then put a footnote somewhere in the admissions application that generic titles were used for the NCAA due to their limited list of approved course titles. :mad:

 

Jackie

[In The Great White North]

NCAA say that the review process can take up to 6 months, so if you wait until you know you have a D1/D2 coach interested, that could be summer before Sr year, at which point you might not even get your preliminary approval until Christmas, when ED applications are over.

 

I was under the impression that the NCAA would not evaluate homeschooler's applications until after graduation, when they have the final transcript, which would certainly be after Christmas.

 

 

"The NCAA Eligibility Center will evaluate home school coursework only after all required documents have been received."

http://fs.ncaa.org/D...Information.pdf

[Corraleno]

I was under the impression that the NCAA would not evaluate homeschooler's applications until after graduation, when they have the final transcript, which would certainly be after Christmas.

"The NCAA Eligibility Center will evaluate home school coursework only after all required documents have been received."

 

There are 2 levels of review; the first will result in "Preliminary Certification" of eligibility, and can be done in the junior year. The student only needs to submit a transcript for courses taken up to that point. Students must complete 10 of the 16 core courses by the end of 11th grade, and 7 of those must be in English/math/Science. NCAA will not begin reviewing your file until (1) the materials which are necessary for the preliminary review have been submitted, AND (2) a D1 or D2 coach has sent them an official request for review by putting the student's name on the "Institutional Request List." Once the review is completed, then any coach can get the report, not just the one who requested it. But unless at least one coach requests it, they won't even start the review.

 

There is also now apparently a path called "Early Academic Qualification" which involves completing 14 of the core courses, with a minimum GPA of 3.0, plus scoring a minimum of 900 (M+CR) on the SAT or a sum score of 75 on the ACT, by the end of 11th grade. Most homeschoolers who take at least one course per year in English, math, science, history, and foreign language would have 15 "core courses" by the end of 11th grade, so should qualify for this (assuming NCAA accepts the courses :glare: ).

 

From what I've read about college recruiting, many coaches will not give you a recruiting slot/"likely letter" unless you already have some kind of preliminary assessment of eligibility. After the student graduates and sends the final transcript in, NCAA issues the Final Certification — but at that point, recruitment is over and application deadlines have long passed. Waiting until after the student graduates only makes sense if he or she is planning to join a team as a walk-on — and even then the coach would have to request the review, so the review wouldn't start until the student is accepted onto the team anyway.

 

This site describes the eligibility reports. This is a slide presentation covering the qualification process.

 

Jackie

[Susan of Croton]

All I can say is that I am so glad the short course season is finally over. I'm sick of knitting socks sitting on bleachers... time to yarn bomb the starting blocks! DS 14 is so obsessed with the numbers, the times, and he's his own harshest critic. I am really just a dorky middle-aged cheerleader who can offer no praise or assessment of the results! I am a wide-eyed newbie to the world of competitive swimming, and thus no judge of "horseflesh", I think the hardest thing is seeing the truth of the matter... is there potential (which would warrant my sacrifice of time/money) or just passion for swimming? Wanting it badly is not enough! It's all about the times! And showing up at the race today! There is no stopping, and family vacations get clipped to not interfere with readiness (in a year-round sport, this is insane). And the little voice at the back of his head is "if not now, when? It's now or never! Go it!" Time to ride the tiger lest we get chewed! It's my job to provide balance and brake action here, and perspective, but I surely don't want to prune such rampant, and joyous growth, at least, as long as the school work is getting done...... Anyone else feel this way?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

All I can say is that I am so glad the short course season is finally over. I'm sick of knitting socks sitting on bleachers... time to yarn bomb the starting blocks! DS 14 is so obsessed with the numbers, the times, and he's his own harshest critic. I am really just a dorky middle-aged cheerleader who can offer no praise or assessment of the results! I am a wide-eyed newbie to the world of competitive swimming, and thus no judge of "horseflesh", I think the hardest thing is seeing the truth of the matter... is there potential (which would warrant my sacrifice of time/money) or just passion for swimming? Wanting it badly is not enough! It's all about the times! And showing up at the race today! There is no stopping, and family vacations get clipped to not interfere with readiness (in a year-round sport, this is insane). And the little voice at the back of his head is "if not now, when? It's now or never! Go it!" Time to ride the tiger lest we get chewed! It's my job to provide balance and brake action here, and perspective, but I surely don't want to prune such rampant, and joyous growth, at least, as long as the school work is getting done...... Anyone else feel this way?

 

I had real reservations about going to 5 practices a week. It finally came down to the fact that swimming is something he took great ownership of. I figured that I could take that trait and show him how to apply it to other areas.

 

Dh and I also know several adults who were high level swimmers who ended their swim careers suddenly and bitterly. I'd rather hold back a little for a lifetime of fitness than put lift life in the backseat to swimming glory. Balance is something we're trying to find.

[swimmermom3]

I had real reservations about going to 5 practices a week. It finally came down to the fact that swimming is something he took great ownership of. I figured that I could take that trait and show him how to apply it to other areas.

 

Dh and I also know several adults who were high level swimmers who ended their swim careers suddenly and bitterly. I'd rather hold back a little for a lifetime of fitness than put lift in the backseat to swimming glory. Balance is something we're trying to find.

 

 

Hold on to this thought. Swimming is an amazing sport and I do not regret the years and years we gave to it. I do; however, regret some of our choices, but not the last one.

 

Swim kids, who are passionate about their sport, will give and give and give. They give up vacations, overnights with friends, dances, and the opportunity to explore other areas of interest. They swim through exhaustion, disappointment, and yes, pain.

 

Shortly before my son was injured, a dear swim friend's youngest daughter could not raise her arms above shoulder height without the tears streaming down her face. At fifteen she held numerous state records and was on our elite squad. She had the ability to be even greater than her older sister who had been on the National team. It's all gone. There is too much scar tissue and she will likely never have quite the full range of motion. For several years, we hosted international swimmers at our home. Really good breast strokers can walk like little old people outside of the pool.

 

It's so easy to get caught up in the numbers and it feels good when they read off your kid's name at state and then sectionals, but they are kids. We are the adults and they trust us to make good decisions for them that will allow for a successful and happy life now and later. There will be a life after swimming no matter what level your child swims at. Be prepared for that.

[Blue Hen]

First, what wonderful information is in this thread! Thank you to all who contributed.

[snowbeltmom]

There has been an ongoing NCAA discussion on another list I am on. Someone posted today that she was told by the NCAA that PA Homeschooling classes are approved by the NCAA.

 

I posted a few months back in this thread about this issue. When I called the NCAA, I was told that the PA Homeschooling classes are not approved by the NCAA.

 

Clearly, one of us was given the wrong information by the representatives at the NCAA. I am hoping it was me. I tried contacting the NCAA, but no one is available now to take my call. I will try back after lunch.

[In The Great White North]

For Type of Assessment:

 

conversations to determine his understanding

 

In eduspeak: "Oral Examinations"

[swimmermom3]

There has been an ongoing NCAA discussion on another list I am on. Someone posted today that she was told by the NCAA that PA Homeschooling classes are approved by the NCAA.

 

I posted a few months back in this thread about this issue. When I called the NCAA, I was told that the PA Homeschooling classes are not approved by the NCAA.

 

Clearly, one of us was given the wrong information by the representatives at the NCAA. I am hoping it was me. I tried contacting the NCAA, but no one is available now to take my call. I will try back after lunch.

 

Please let us know what you hear. We just enrolled in a PA Homeschooling course and I could have sworn that I saw that they would send a transcript to the NCAA. To me that implies that they are now accredited, but it would be great to have confirmation.

 

ETA: Never mind, I can't find anything about accreditation.

 

So this means that if I have to submit forms to NCAA, I cannot acknowledge that PAH taught the class? And then by removing them from the picture, I also cannot state that ds took an AP course because I was not the person who submitted the audit? This whole thing makes me want to go wash my hands. Ick.

[snowbeltmom]

I spoke with an NCAA homeschooling rep. named Shawn. Shawn told me that we can go into the NCAA website and determine whether a class is approved by the NCAA. https://web1.ncaa.or...l/exec/hsAction

 

There are a two different options when conducting the search. The first option is to enter the school's CEEB code. The second option is to enter in the school's state,and a list of schools located in that state will be displayed.

 

The good news: PA Homeschoolers is on the list. The CEEB code is 392057. The ironic news for me: I signed my son up directly with ChemAdvantage when he took AP Chemistry, so his class will not be approved. :cursing: . I was diligent last school year by verifying with the NCAA that I was in compliance. It's not fair to the students that the NCAA is permitted to change its rules halfway through the student's high school years . Luckily my son will have enough other science classes that I don't need to list this course.

 

CTY online classes are also approved by the NCAA.

 

 

I could not find AoPS listed in the database. I don't know what state Lukeion is based out of, so I could not search for them.

 

 

The rep told me that if the online class is not listed in the database, the worksheet will not be approved.

[swimmermom3]

I spoke with an NCAA homeschooling rep. named Shawn. Shawn told me that we can go into the NCAA website and determine whether a class is approved by the NCAA. https://web1.ncaa.or...l/exec/hsAction

 

There are a two different options when conducting the search. The first option is to enter the school's CEEB code. The second option is to enter in the school's state,and a list of schools located in that state will be displayed.

 

The good news: PA Homeschoolers is on the list. The CEEB code is 392057. The ironic news for me: I signed my son up directly with ChemAdvantage when he took AP Chemistry, so his class will not be approved. :cursing: . I was diligent last school year by verifying with the NCAA that I was in compliance. It's not fair to the students that the NCAA is permitted to change its rules halfway through the student's high school years . Luckily my son will have enough other science classes that I don't need to list this course.

 

CTY online classes are also approved by the NCAA.

 

 

I could not find AoPS listed in the database. I don't know what state Lukeion is based out of, so I could not search for them.

 

 

The rep told me that if the online class is not listed in the database, the worksheet will not be approved.

 

Thank you so much. This is good news for us, but I wish you had good news as well. I am not sure how the NCAA can deny a class on the transcript, if it was approved for the year that your child took the course. I would think that could create a big mess for a bunch of people. It's a bit like arresting someone two years after the fact for doing something that is no longer legal, but was legal it the time the "crime" was committed. :tongue_smilie:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I spoke with an NCAA homeschooling rep. named Shawn. Shawn told me that we can go into the NCAA website and determine whether a class is approved by the NCAA. https://web1.ncaa.or...l/exec/hsAction

 

There are a two different options when conducting the search. The first option is to enter the school's CEEB code. The second option is to enter in the school's state,and a list of schools located in that state will be displayed.

 

The good news: PA Homeschoolers is on the list. The CEEB code is 392057. The ironic news for me: I signed my son up directly with ChemAdvantage when he took AP Chemistry, so his class will not be approved. :cursing: . I was diligent last school year by verifying with the NCAA that I was in compliance. It's not fair to the students that the NCAA is permitted to change its rules halfway through the student's high school years . Luckily my son will have enough other science classes that I don't need to list this course.

 

CTY online classes are also approved by the NCAA.

 

 

I could not find AoPS listed in the database. I don't know what state Lukeion is based out of, so I could not search for them.

 

 

The rep told me that if the online class is not listed in the database, the worksheet will not be approved.

 

Lukeion has not requested NCAA approval. I don't think that it is on their to do list. They could spend a lot of time trying to satisfy a bureaucracy that isn't concerned with academic quality so much as completing paperwork drills. I think they'd rather just teach Latin well.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So here is what frosts me about the NCAA worksheets. Looking at the Home School Information form that covers non-traditional courses vs home schooling.

 

If my kids take a once a week online class and I spend 4-7 days a week making sure they understand the material, have done the assignments and are ready for quizzes it is a non-traditional course.

 

If I hire a tutor to come to my home and teach the subject while I do something else that is homeschooling.

 

If I use a packaged curriculum to tell me what pages to assign, what points to discuss and what to think about each reading that is homeschooling.

 

If I have a motivated independent learner who does advanced science with video lectures that is probably a non-traditional course.

 

If I register for a class with a state public virtual academy it is approved. If I register for the same class with the provider who sells the course services to that state public virtual academy it isn't approved.

 

A student who gets C's in a brick and mortar setting is eligible. A student who used one too many non-approved non-traditional course on his way to passing AP exams, earning high scores on SAT reasoning and subject tests or medaling on the NLE is out of luck. Tell me again how this protects the interests of the scholar athlete.

 

It makes me so unhappy to think that I might decide to pass on a demanding and rewarding course just because it's not approved by a sports consortium.

[snowbeltmom]

 

A student who gets C's in a brick and mortar setting is eligible. A student who used one too many non-approved non-traditional course on his way to passing AP exams, earning high scores on SAT reasoning and subject tests or medaling on the NLE is out of luck. Tell me again how this protects the interests of the scholar athlete.

Let's not forget about the student who gets a whopping score of 200 on both the Math & Reading sections of the SAT is also eligible. :scared:

 

This organization is not concerned with protecting the interests of the scholar athlete. Once you realize it is all about the $$$, it all makes sense.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So for a banal practicality . . .

 

if you submitted NCAA worksheets did you type on the form, handwrite or submit the info on your own page that contained all the same information?

[swimmermom3]

So for a banal practicality . . .

 

if you submitted NCAA worksheets did you type on the form, handwrite or submit the info on your own page that contained all the same information?

 

 

What??? After getting me all in a lather, you ask about paperwork, Sebastian? :tongue_smilie:

 

If I were to be totally honest, thinking about the NCAA is only the icing on a stale cake. Today I signed my boys out of school after their first period class. It seems the rest of the day was going to be devoted to

. Yes, this is in a district that cut at least four days of education due to budget-reductions.

 

Need I mention how I feel as a tax payer? This to celebrate their pride as a school. Don't ask me about the 70% failure rate in ds's freshman physics class - yes, it is conceptual physics.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What??? After getting me all in a lather, you ask about paperwork, Sebastian? :tongue_smilie:

 

If I were to be totally honest, thinking about the NCAA is only the icing on a stale cake. Today I signed my boys out of school after their first period class. It seems the rest of the day was going to be devoted to

. Yes, this is in a district that cut at least four days of education due to budget-reductions.

 

Need I mention how I feel as a tax payer? This to celebrate their pride as a school. Don't ask me about the 70% failure rate in ds's freshman physics class - yes, it is conceptual physics.

 

Sorry, to switch gears on you. I decided that I really needed to write up worksheets on the courses we have gotten done, so they are complete while the subjects are fresh in my mind. I was also hoping that if I saw that I had a good number of core courses complete (even without counting the courses we use outside providers for) I would have more of a sense of peace about the whole thing. The truth is that my son is a long shot to be a recruited athlete and that we do actually do the bulk of our subjects in a home centered way. My emotional responses to NCAA regs have more to do with my long seated frustration with any educational bureaucracies that put checking boxes above academic excellence. I'm sure if it really becomes an issue, we'll have no problem coming up with 16 acceptable core courses in the end.

 

Oh, and I went back to the worksheets and they are fillable pdf files. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be savable, so make sure you print a copy. I'll probably rough out the content in a document that I can past into the appropriate form (because it's possible it might even change again before my kids are seniors) if the time comes.

 

FWIW, One thing I am doing is writing up the grades for the coop class I taught with all the info (ISBN, course description, assessment method) needed for a worksheet. I have a couple soccer players. Who knows if they might find themselves needing the info down the road.

[snowbeltmom]

Thank you so much. This is good news for us, but I wish you had good news as well. I am not sure how they can deny a class on the transcript, if it was approved for the year that your child took the course. I would think that could create a big mess for a bunch of people. It's a bit like arresting someone two years after the fact for doing something that is no longer legal, but was legal it the time the "crime" was committed. :tongue_smilie:

Exactly. The problem is that I have no written proof of what I was told. Any future communication with this scummy organization is going to be via email.

[Blue Hen]

 

Oh, and I went back to the worksheets and they are fillable pdf files. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be savable, so make sure you print a copy. I'll probably rough out the content in a document that I can past into the appropriate form (because it's possible it might even change again before my kids are seniors) if the time comes.

 

Be careful with using their *fillable* forms and filling them with information. I filled in several with information, printed them using a pseudo-print sw that actually writes it as a pdf and then found that on my pc the information I had painstacking filled in did not appear. On my son's pc the form was all nicely completed. Really weird. I spoke to Margaret at NCAA about the issue and she said they are having all sorts of issues with the fillable forms. She advised that we make our own form in WORD or some other program and use it, making sure that all the information pieces are there.

 

I submitted 15 CCW to NCAA last week, all with typed information. DS just completed 4 courses at the CC, 3 should count as Core Courses, so the transcript from there is headed to NCAA too.

[Blue Hen]

I spoke with an NCAA homeschooling rep. named Shawn. Shawn told me that we can go into the NCAA website and determine whether a class is approved by the NCAA. https://web1.ncaa.or...sAction

 

Great detective work! Great to know that PA HS'ers is in there.

 

Are you able to find Potter School? I haven't had any success locating them in the database. DS took 2 French classes from them---worked a lot----and I'd really like to find them in the database.

 

Thanks for your help.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Be careful with using their *fillable* forms and filling them with information. I filled in several with information, printed them using a pseudo-print sw that actually writes it as a pdf and then found that on my pc the information I had painstacking filled in did not appear. On my son's pc the form was all nicely completed. Really weird. I spoke to Margaret at NCAA about the issue and she said they are having all sorts of issues with the fillable forms. She advised that we make our own form in WORD or some other program and use it, making sure that all the information pieces are there.

 

I submitted 15 CCW to NCAA last week, all with typed information. DS just completed 4 courses at the CC, 3 should count as Core Courses, so the transcript from there is headed to NCAA too.

 

 

Thanks for the heads up. Fillable pdf forms have been the bane of my life lately (the BSA Eagle Scout workbook has been pretty buggy for us too). I will probably just create a file with all the info needed and wait to actually fill or create a form until we need it.

 

But it's good to know that they are willing to accept a reasonable facsimile.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I found a few more popular sources. I'm just giving the high school code, since I don't think a link will take you to the school specific page.

 

Veritas Press Scholars' Academy High School Code: 392122

Center for Talented Youth - aka Johns Hopkins CTY High School Code: 975334

EPGY aka Stanford Online High High School Code: 054127

 

One I've had my eye on, but not used yet is Virtual Virginia (High School Code 851054). It is the state Department of Eductation Virtual High School provider (not to be confused with the K12 provider with a similar name).

[snowbeltmom]

Are you able to find Potter School? I haven't had any success locating them in the database. DS took 2 French classes from them---worked a lot----and I'd really like to find them in the database..

 

I could not find Potter School in the database. The Potter School has a mailing address based in Texas, so I am assuming that they would be operating within the state of Texas. Neither "The Potter School" or "Potter School" is in the database.

 

Please keep us updated on how the process goes for you. Good luck.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I could not find Potter School in the database. The Potter School has a mailing address based in Texas, so I am assuming that they would be operating within the state of Texas. Neither "The Potter School" or "Potter School" is in the database.

 

Please keep us updated on how the process goes for you. Good luck.

 

 

They also have an address in VA. But I didn't find anything there either.

[Chez J]

Is Apologia for science or any Bob Jones text/course "approved" by NCAA?

[snowbeltmom]

This article was posted recently on another list I am on:

 

http://www.theatlant...ports/308643/4/

 

 

The Myth of the “Student-Athleteâ€

 

Today, much of the NCAA’s moral authority—indeed much of the justification for its existence—is vested in its claim to protect what it calls the “student-athlete.†The term is meant to conjure the nobility of amateurism, and the precedence of scholarship over athletic endeavor. But the origins of the “student-athlete†lie not in a disinterested ideal but in a sophistic formulation designed, as the sports economist Andrew Zimbalist has written, to help the NCAA in its “fight against workmen’s compensation insurance claims for injured football players.â€

[Sebastian (a lady)]

This article was posted recently on another list I am on:

 

http://www.theatlant...ports/308643/4/

 

 

 

 

The Myth of the “Student-Athleteâ€

 

 

 

Today, much of the NCAA’s moral authority—indeed much of the justification for its existence—is vested in its claim to protect what it calls the “student-athlete.†The term is meant to conjure the nobility of amateurism, and the precedence of scholarship over athletic endeavor. But the origins of the “student-athlete†lie not in a disinterested ideal but in a sophistic formulation designed, as the sports economist Andrew Zimbalist has written, to help the NCAA in its “fight against workmen’s compensation insurance claims for injured football players.â€

 

 

 

Wow, I really did not need to read that. I've only gotten through a few pages and it is just horrific.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Wow, I really did not need to read that. I've only gotten through a few pages and it is just horrific.

 

 

Also from The Atlantic's article:

 

Within big-time college athletic departments, the financial pressure to disregard obvious academic shortcomings and shortcuts is just too strong. In the 1980s, Jan Kemp, an English instructor at the University of Georgia, publicly alleged that university officials had demoted and then fired her because she refused to inflate grades in her remedial English courses. Documents showed that administrators replaced the grades she’d given athletes with higher ones, providing fake passing grades on one notable occasion to nine Bulldog football players who otherwise would have been ineligible to compete in the 1982 Sugar Bowl. (Georgia lost anyway, 24–20, to a University of Pittsburgh team led by the future Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Marino.) When Kemp filed a lawsuit against the university, she was publicly vilified as a troublemaker, but she persisted bravely in her testimony. Once, Kemp said, a supervisor demanding that she fix a grade had bellowed, “Who do you think is more important to this university, you or Dominique Wilkins?†(Wilkins was a star on the basketball team.) Traumatized, Kemp twice attempted suicide.

 

In trying to defend themselves, Georgia officials portrayed Kemp as naive about sports. “We have to compete on a level playing field,†said Fred Davison, the university president. During the Kemp civil trial, in 1986, Hale Almand, Georgia’s defense lawyer, explained the university’s patronizing aspirations for its typical less-than-scholarly athlete. “We may not make a university student out of him,†Almand told the court, “but if we can teach him to read and write, maybe he can work at the post office rather than as a garbage man when he gets through with his athletic career.†This argument backfired with the jurors: finding in favor of Kemp, they rejected her polite request for $100,000, and awarded her $2.6 million in damages instead. (This was later reduced to $1.08 million.) Jan Kemp embodied what is ostensibly the NCAA’s reason for being—to enforce standards fairly and put studies above sports—but no one from the organization ever spoke up on her behalf.

[swimmermom3]

 

Also from The Atlantic's article:

 

Within big-time college athletic departments, the financial pressure to disregard obvious academic shortcomings and shortcuts is just too strong. In the 1980s, Jan Kemp, an English instructor at the University of Georgia, publicly alleged that university officials had demoted and then fired her because she refused to inflate grades in her remedial English courses. Documents showed that administrators replaced the grades she’d given athletes with higher ones, providing fake passing grades on one notable occasion to nine Bulldog football players who otherwise would have been ineligible to compete in the 1982 Sugar Bowl. (Georgia lost anyway, 24–20, to a University of Pittsburgh team led by the future Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Marino.) When Kemp filed a lawsuit against the university, she was publicly vilified as a troublemaker, but she persisted bravely in her testimony. Once, Kemp said, a supervisor demanding that she fix a grade had bellowed, “Who do you think is more important to this university, you or Dominique Wilkins?†(Wilkins was a star on the basketball team.) Traumatized, Kemp twice attempted suicide.

 

In trying to defend themselves, Georgia officials portrayed Kemp as naive about sports. “We have to compete on a level playing field,†said Fred Davison, the university president. During the Kemp civil trial, in 1986, Hale Almand, Georgia’s defense lawyer, explained the university’s patronizing aspirations for its typical less-than-scholarly athlete. “We may not make a university student out of him,†Almand told the court, “but if we can teach him to read and write, maybe he can work at the post office rather than as a garbage man when he gets through with his athletic career.†This argument backfired with the jurors: finding in favor of Kemp, they rejected her polite request for $100,000, and awarded her $2.6 million in damages instead. (This was later reduced to $1.08 million.) Jan Kemp embodied what is ostensibly the NCAA’s reason for being—to enforce standards fairly and put studies above sports—but no one from the organization ever spoke up on her behalf.

 

I found it very difficult to read this article. It left me both furious and tearful. What would the face of American collegiate sports look like if the NCAA actually did what it purports to do?

[Candid]

What??? After getting me all in a lather, you ask about paperwork, Sebastian? :tongue_smilie:

 

If I were to be totally honest, thinking about the NCAA is only the icing on a stale cake. Today I signed my boys out of school after their first period class. It seems the rest of the day was going to be devoted to

. Yes, this is in a district that cut at least four days of education due to budget-reductions.

 

Need I mention how I feel as a tax payer? This to celebrate their pride as a school. Don't ask me about the 70% failure rate in ds's freshman physics class - yes, it is conceptual physics.

 

 

Looks like a new modern building? And they were having fun? Isn't that what school should be?

[Lolly]

Is Apologia for science or any Bob Jones text/course "approved" by NCAA?

 

I know Bob Jones is. At least, they approved it for my girls. That is for the text, we did not use their online class.

[teachermom2834]

The whole thing is really frustrating. I just filled out worksheets for my current 9th grader because I will be totally overwhelmed if I try to do this all in his senior year. I know he might not need it but I feel better keeping up with it just in case.

 

I feel like it is just all jumping through hoops and rewriting our transcript. We use Kolbe for many courses. Kolbe has separate English and Literature courses each year and if you are enrolled with Kolbe they are each for a full credit. I thought most colleges would expect English and lit to be combined so we've been doing nearly all of it (we probably did 80%) of both courses but I was just calling it "English 9" and giving one credit. Well, in the NCAA database of approved courses they approve all the different Kolbe English and lit courses. So, I guess I can fill out worksheets for English 9 and Ancient Greek Literature as two separate courses.

 

I have had outside help in some classes from co-op teachers. I still give the final grade and oversee the whole course and am involved but the co-op teacher is very involved, too. I hate feeling like if I list the co-op teacher as "other" teacher on the course and say she designed/ created assessments the whole thing could get muddied up. The way I am reading it is that a co-op class would be a "non-traditional course" and not be approved. So frustrating.

[snowbeltmom]

The way I am reading it is that a co-op class would be a "non-traditional course" and not be approved. So frustrating.

 

 

It is extremely frustrating and I think that the NCAA is blurring the line between homeschoolers and online public schoolers with these new worksheet requirements. By definition, imo, homeschooled classes are "non-traditional."

 

Fwiw, I have decided not to follow the instructions I was given by the reps I spoke with. I am the person who is in charge of issuing the grade and assigning credit. I am declaring myself the teacher of record for everything. Even though my son has taken classes that aren't approved by the NCAA, his contact with the instructors amounted to 1.5 hours per week maximum. I am viewing that more as a role of a tutor than a main instructor. If the traditionally schooled kids hire a tutor, they don't need to report that to anyone.

 

I am not going to muddy the water by mentioning online components of a class. I am simply going to list the textbooks used.

[Chez J]

I know Bob Jones is. At least, they approved it for my girls. That is for the text, we did not use their online class.

 

 

Thanks!!!

 

Apologia Chemistry and Biology anyone?

[teachermom2834]

It is extremely frustrating and I think that the NCAA is blurring the line between homeschoolers and online public schoolers with these new worksheet requirements. By definition, imo, homeschooled classes are "non-traditional."

 

Fwiw, I have decided not to follow the instructions I was given by the reps I spoke with. I am the person who is in charge of issuing the grade and assigning credit. I am declaring myself the teacher of record for everything. Even though my son has taken classes that aren't approved by the NCAA, his contact with the instructors amounted to 1.5 hours per week maximum. I am viewing that more as a role of a tutor than a main instructor. If the traditionally schooled kids hire a tutor, they don't need to report that to anyone.

 

I am not going to muddy the water by mentioning online components of a class. I am simply going to list the textbooks used.

 

 

I have come to the conclusion that this is the approach I will use as well. That is, if things don't change completely by the time my ds is graduating.

[In The Great White North]

What would the face of American collegiate sports look like if the NCAA actually did what it purports to do?

 

Take that one step further - what if there were no NCAA? Could it possibly be worse?

 

​With the NCAA, we have drugs, cheating, coercion, coaching/schools/NCAA making millions off kids free labor, injuries, graduates with no scholastic skills, sex abuse, practices that interfere with class schedules, etc.

[snowbeltmom]

 

Apologia Chemistry and Biology anyone?

 

I spoke with the homeschooling rep, Kevin, last year about this issue. He said that they don't publish a list of approved textbooks. I was told that as long as the textbook is considered a high school level text or higher, the textbook will be approved.

[HodgesSchool]

Have any of you had math classes approved using Thinkwell as the major text?

[Lolly]

 

Thanks!!!

 

Apologia Chemistry and Biology anyone?

 

 

Aha! yes. Ddb used Apologia Anatomy! It also was no problem!!!