Am I the only one who feels

[gardenmom5]

And your point is what? I do not believe irrational behaviours should be excused just because of mental illness. Mental illness may explain them, but should not allow the person off the hook. I feel the same way about any mental illness, and if my own son grew up to do such a heinous act I would certainly hope they would stop him at all costs from harming another even if that meant they had to kill him.

there may well be some different definitions going on here, passing communication.

I don't mean excuse in that they shouldn't be stopped - they need to be. It does mean they are not fully responsible and do not deserve our condemnation as being less than human as we don't have all the facts.

 

there should still be compassion, and that is what seems to be lacking - and what the OP brought up in her original post with her concern about the comments that were totally lacking in compassion. (and some downright bloodthirsty,)

[SKL]

 

Being glad someone is dead still sounds like "joy" to me.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I said "glad," I didn't mean jubilant. I meant that this outcome is better than the alternative in some way. I am glad the perp's fate does not have to be decided in the criminal justice system. That doesn't mean I'm breaking out the champagne.

 

Others might also use "glad" in a similar way.

[Jenny in Florida]

I've been so busy in the evenings lately that I haven't been able to watch the news and I never have it on during the day, so I haven't been following this too closely. However, I did sneak into my AP app yesterday and saw an article on the incident. My initial reaction - voiced to dh - was NOT thank goodness they killed the ---, but wow, it sounds like he had such and such mental illness. I'm just sad about every bit of the situation. Someone up thread mentioned feeling sadness when bin Laden was killed, too. That's how I felt, too. Not because I thought he was a great man (I don't think he was) but because I thought it was horrific to see and hear people glorying in the death of another human. Again, the whole situation was sad. It was sad that while he lived, he was a monster doing evil things; it was sad that he needed to be stopped and the only apparent way to do so was to take his life; it was very sad to see and hear so many people rejoicing in another's death. That's how I feel about the AL incident, too. I guess what I'm trying to say is I just feel regret that things ever come to such a head. I wish the world was such a place that these sorts of thing didn't ever have to happen.

 

You may say I'm a dreamer . . . (Lennon)

 

But you're not the only one.

 

I completely agree. I felt no joy when Osama bin Laden was killed, either. Instead, I felt a mix of relief and sadness. I was sad that his life turned into what it did, that he was responsible for the deaths and suffering of so many other people, that no one had found any other way to stop him from harming again. Was I relieved it was over? Yes, but it wasn't the feeling that was foremost in my mind or my heart.

 

And both relief and sadness were quickly overwhelmed by horror at the images of people celebrating his death. That is what sticks in my mind and keeps me awake, makes me feel hopeless for my world.

 

And this, in a smaller way, evokes similar responses from me. While I was worried about that child and both relieved and saddened by the way the incident ended, what makes me want to curl up in my hidey hole and weep for a while is the cries of "let him rot" and "I'm glad the man is dead."

[PachiSusan]

 

I think this whole thread is about compassion and understanding. Let's all show we're capable of some.

 

Goodness, yes!

[Jenny in Florida]

and yet, you still state that mental health issues aren't an excuse for highly irrational behavior?

 

And that she "has no compassion" for this man. I don't get it, either.

[Mom-ninja.]

I have to say that no, I don't feel compassion for the man. Sorry, I can't help how I feel. I just don't.

 

I feel sad when I think that every single person was once a child and I'm sad about what went wrong, but once that something (whatever it is) has gone wrong then sometimes the worst needs to be done. As much as we don't like it, it doesn't change the fact that there are times in life when it is kill or be killed. In situations of killing to protect the innocent, I don't have a problem with that.

 

You know what? I'm still a lovely person. :)

[SKL]

Does anyone think the man would be happier alive right now? Personally I doubt it.

[PachiSusan]

Does anyone think the man would be happier alive right now? Personally I doubt it.

 

No, but I don't think it was the point of the OP. The point was that the jubilation that some people were showing that he was dead was bothering her.

[SKL]

 

No, but I don't think it was the point of the OP. The point was that the jubilation that some people were showing that he was dead was bothering her.

 

I agree. But some folks are sounding as if compassion equals being sorry the man is dead. From what I've heard, the man was not happy before this incident, and after all that happened in the past week, didn't have a whole lot to look forward to in this life. I feel sorry for him for being so messed up in his life. Not for his losing his life after all that occurred.

[PachiSusan]

I agree. But some folks are sounding as if compassion equals being sorry the man is dead. From what I've heard, the man was not happy before this incident, and after all that happened in the past week, didn't have a whole lot to look forward to in this life. I feel sorry for him for being so messed up in his life. Not for his losing his life after all that occurred.

 

I don't know exactly where I stand about it right now except that I'm so very happy the boy was released and safe.

[Guest inoubliable]

I agree. But some folks are sounding as if compassion equals being sorry the man is dead. From what I've heard, the man was not happy before this incident, and after all that happened in the past week, didn't have a whole lot to look forward to in this life. I feel sorry for him for being so messed up in his life. Not for his losing his life after all that occurred.

 

 

I'm not sorry that he's dead - I thought that was a likely outcome in the very beginning and one that the man seemed to have planned for since he was barricaded in a bunker. I do feel sorry for what I think he must have endured emotionally and/or mentally before all this. I feel sorry that he didn't see another way out, wasn't given another way out, couldn't take another way out. I feel sorry for his friends and family who are probably beating themselves up over not intervening and are probably missing him and angry all at the same time.

 

None of that makes me feel less relieved that the boy was rescued and physically unharmed. None of that would have meant that I didn't want to see the man charged and tried for his crimes if he had been taken alive.

[Crimson Wife]

And both relief and sadness were quickly overwhelmed by horror at the images of people celebrating his death. That is what sticks in my mind and keeps me awake, makes me feel hopeless for my world.

 

 

Did you forget the THOUSANDS who celebrated in the streets on 9/11 in the Arab world? *FAR* fewer Americans celebrated the death of the criminal bin Laden than Arabs who celebrated the deaths of innocent civilians who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...

[gardenmom5]

I agree. But some folks are sounding as if compassion equals being sorry the man is dead. From what I've heard, the man was not happy before this incident, and after all that happened in the past week, didn't have a whole lot to look forward to in this life. I feel sorry for him for being so messed up in his life. Not for his losing his life after all that occurred.

 

no - I think compassion means not *gloating* or rejoicing he's dead because he's "such a scummy human being". (or the bloodlusty comments the OP originally referred to.)

[gardenmom5]

 

Did you forget the THOUSANDS who celebrated in the streets on 9/11 in the Arab world? *FAR* fewer Americans celebrated the death of the criminal bin Laden than Arabs who celebrated the deaths of innocent civilians who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...

 

 

not to mention the celebrations in certain areas in the US on 9/11. (didn't get as much coverage, but it was there nonetheless.)

[PachiSusan]

not to mention the celebrations in certain areas in the US on 9/11. (didn't get as much coverage, but it was there nonetheless.)

 

I saw the throngs of people at the White House yelling and celebrating OBL's death that night and I had tears streaming down my face at seeing the jubilation at another's death. In the same vein, I could not get into the campaign slogan "Bin Laden is Dead, GM is Alive".

 

I have a hard time celebrating anyone's death. I just do.

[PachiSusan]

 

Did you forget the THOUSANDS who celebrated in the streets on 9/11 in the Arab world? *FAR* fewer Americans celebrated the death of the criminal bin Laden than Arabs who celebrated the deaths of innocent civilians who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...

 

That was just plain wrong too.

[Rebecca VA]

Why are we all turning on each other? Are we all trying to prove we're more compassionate than anyone else? I think we all basically feel the same way. Sorrow that this happened, relief that the boy is safe. What more is there to say?

[SKL]

 

Did you forget the THOUSANDS who celebrated in the streets on 9/11 in the Arab world? *FAR* fewer Americans celebrated the death of the criminal bin Laden than Arabs who celebrated the deaths of innocent civilians who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...

 

That made me sad, too. Sad to know that there are humans who would celebrate civilian deaths under any circumstances.

[Embassy]

I think celebration of death as well as other non-compassionate acts are becoming more and more part of the American culture. Some of the things people say are quite shocking and show an alarming lack of compassion.

[Rebecca VA]

Are you not familiar with history? There have been public executions from the beginning of time where the whole village turned out to watch. People have been tortured and killed in the most horrible ways from the very beginning.

 

Human nature does not change. We're exactly the same as our ancestors. The difference is that the Internet makes it possible for everyone to know anything immediately.

[Mergath]

 

Did you forget the THOUSANDS who celebrated in the streets on 9/11 in the Arab world? *FAR* fewer Americans celebrated the death of the criminal bin Laden than Arabs who celebrated the deaths of innocent civilians who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...

 

And how would you know that? There were a heck of a lot of people out dancing in the streets for both events. I don't remember seeing a graph.

 

Either way, both cultures were wrong to do it.

[PachiSusan]

Are you not familiar with history? There have been public executions from the beginning of time where the whole village turned out to watch. People have been tortured and killed in the most horrible ways from the very beginning.

 

Human nature does not change. We're exactly the same as our ancestors. The difference is that the Internet makes it possible for everyone to know anything immediately.

 

I'm very familiar with history. I don't have to like that about human nature, I can wish it didn't happen, and hope we grow away from this blood lust.

[Embassy]

Are you not familiar with history? There have been public executions from the beginning of time where the whole village turned out to watch. People have been tortured and killed in the most horrible ways from the very beginning.

 

Human nature does not change. We're exactly the same as our ancestors. The difference is that the Internet makes it possible for everyone to know anything immediately.

 

Yes, I am familiar with history. I'm talking about personal observations about the culture in America. I guess it is possible that the lack of compassion that I'm observing has always been there and I haven't seen it. Maybe the internet brings these "rejoicings" or statements that lack compassion more to light than in the past as well.

[Cindy in FL.]

Every life starts with such potential and possibility. Circumstances, actions, decisions close off more and more of that potential as we go along. Some of us wind up like rats hiding in a hole (this kidnapper, OBL, Arafat) or in other terrible situations. Don't get me wrong, I realize they made their own decisions, but it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart how we ruin our own lives and those of our loved ones and the horrors we inflict on one another.

 

While I fully support justice and am bothered by injustice, I can't be happy about the end of a human life.

[gardenmom5]

 

I saw the throngs of people at the White House yelling and celebrating OBL's death that night and I had tears streaming down my face at seeing the jubilation at another's death. In the same vein, I could not get into the campaign slogan "Bin Laden is Dead, GM is Alive".

 

I have a hard time celebrating anyone's death. I just do.

It said more about them that it did obl. and it wasn't a positive something.

[PachiSusan]

It said more about them that it did obl. and it wasn't a positive something.

 

No, it most certainly was not a positive in my book.

[jujsky]

 

Did you forget the THOUSANDS who celebrated in the streets on 9/11 in the Arab world? *FAR* fewer Americans celebrated the death of the criminal bin Laden than Arabs who celebrated the deaths of innocent civilians who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...

 

2 wrongs don't make a right. If we want to show that our country is more civilized than Arab nations, celebrating the death of another human (or demon wearing a person-suit -- that's how I viewed Bin Laden) doesn't make us look much better. I was at a birthday party for a friend when they announced his death, and a couple of her friends started cheering. I had to leave. It made me sick -- literally -- I almost threw up. I never thought I'd have such a strong reaction, but then again I never expected to see such jubilation from the people at the party over a death. He deserved to die. He had to die. I felt a sense of relief that he was gone, but disgust to the core of my being that others would celebrate it with such joy and enthusiasm. All I could think of was how people used to come out for public executions as a form of entertainment. We look at those people and think of them as savages, but the reaction of people in this era to Bin Laden's death wasn't any better.

 

I think the most of the people on this thread who have commented they are glad when someone like Bin Laden or someone like this kidnapper dies mean they feel a sense of relief -- not joy. As far as the kidnapper goes, I'm sorry the police felt it was necessary to kill him, but they may not have had a choice. Their life or a crazy man's life? I was pretty certain that if he didn't send that boy out soon, he was going to die, and maybe he wanted that. If he wanted to live he would have let the boy go and surrendered.

[LucyStoner]

What makes me more sad than the man's death is the celebration/joy in any death. It may be a normal human response, but normal or common doesn't equal right.

 

The only way forwards after something like this is forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't mean no consequences or response, but instead that you will always be better off personally if you can free yourself from hate and anger.

 

That said, law enforcement did their job. Their job was to get the boy safely out. He is home safe and sound. I think this man's death is tragic, but it is essentially on his own hands.

[gardenmom5]

As far as the kidnapper goes, I'm sorry the police felt it was necessary to kill him, but they may not have had a choice. Their life or a crazy man's life? I was pretty certain that if he didn't send that boy out soon, he was going to die, and maybe he wanted that. If he wanted to live he would have let the boy go and surrendered.

talks had broken down, and he was seen brandishing a gun, making the police *very* nervous about what he would do. It was storm the bunker and kill him, or risk him killing the little boy.

I saw a report this evening. confirmed, he was shot by police as he was firing at them.

[PachiSusan]

What makes me more sad than the man's death is the celebration/joy in any death. It may be a normal human response, but normal or common doesn't equal right.

 

The only way forwards after something like this is forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't mean no consequences or response, but instead that you will always be better off personally if you can free yourself from hate and anger.

 

That said, law enforcement did their job. Their job was to get the boy safely out. He is home safe and sound. I think this man's death is tragic, but it is essentially on his own hands.

 

I can totally agree with this.

[LucyStoner]

Don't get me wrong, I am not one to celebrate death and I am very anti-death penalty (when my moral side beats back my vengeful side) but I really am uncomfortable with the idea that keeps popping up that senseless violence = mental illness. There are many, many people who are mentally ill but not violent. Mental illness may be an explanation but it is not present in every violent crime. I think that there are some violent people who are just ass backwards angry jerks. Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway had personality disorders but was that an illness that excused their actions? Um, no.

[Laurie4b]

Glad I'm not the only one. Whew!

 

I'm not saying that anyone did wrong in taking him out. I wasn't there. I don't have the training and experience that the people who were in charge have. I think they did the best thing that they could in that situation. I just couldn't understand the angry and cruel and violent reactions from some people regarding the hostage taker. It just seemed so obvious that the man was sick! He needed help, you know?? And what about HIS family? The horror they must be going through. Not trying to marginalize the tragedy from the little boy's or his family's stand point, but I see multiple victims of this guy's mental disease.

 

I just cannot do a happy dance for the death of this guy. And I'm completely taken aback at others jumping for joy.

 

That's why hangings and other public executions used to be social events. I don't get it myself, but it's clearly there in humanity.

[jelbe5]

The violent death of anyone, no matter what horrible things that person has done, should never be celebrated in my humble opinion.

 

I am editing to add that, while individuals who do these things may be mentally ill, they have the ability to plan these elaborate attacks which hurt many, many people. That ability, in my opinion, should be the reason not to exempt them from punishment. Compassionate treatment should be involved, but I don't think anyone who commits these acts should ever be allowed to be part of general society again. As a social worker, I have worked with many mentally ill people, none of whom were violent.

 

It makes me question why there is this relatively new phenomenon of rampaging and then committing suicide by a self inflicted act or through a battle with law enforcement.

[Word Nerd]

It makes me question why there is this relatively new phenomenon of rampaging and then committing suicide by a self inflicted act or through a battle with law enforcement.

 

I'm sure there are many reasons, but the first one that comes to mind in this era of 24/7/365 news coverage and social media chatter is a greater likelihood of having their name live on in infamy—at least for 15 minutes.

[gardenmom5]

 

That's why hangings and other public executions used to be social events. I don't get it myself, but it's clearly there in humanity.

 

 

what else was there to do? (not that it's right) mobbings etc. frequently happened in the winter. to early to plant, and the harvest was over.

[Squiddles]

 

 

On the other hand though, there's a part of me that thinks about the little boy this monster once was and wonders what must have happened to him to change him into who he was. I have compassion for that little boy and who he could have become. I fully acknowledge that he was responsible for the choices he made and the actions he chose to make. Still, I do feel a weird sadness about the man.

 

 

this is how i feel.... I can't help but feel compassion for every "bad guy" out there, and wonder who they were as a child, and what could have helped change their path in life... my heart breaks to see pictures of Hitler as a little boy

[katilac]

<snip> Ds and I recently discussed some of these issues. We're currently reading The Iliad and are on the part where Achilleus is in a blind rage avenging the death of Patroklos. Ds and I have been talking about why Patroklos was so special. Men were dying all around them in a war that has been running for 9 years, why this person. Literary device? Were the other men not so special? <snip>

 

Well, this one is far more answerable than the other questions in this thread! Patrocluss was Achille's beloved friend. They met as boys, both refugees of a sort, and grew to manhood together. Achilles loves Petroclus as he loves no one else, and is often seen to be tender and understanding with him (as opposed to his usual arrogant manner with others). So, not (strictly) a literary device, but a natural offshoot of humanity: we are all far more upset when tragedy strikes those we love. No, the other men were not so special to Achilles. Patroclus was, and adding to Achille's grief was the guilt of sending his best friend into the battle that killed him.

 

And your point is what? I do not believe irrational behaviours should be excused just because of mental illness. Mental illness may explain them, but should not allow the person off the hook. I feel the same way about any mental illness, and if my own son grew up to do such a heinous act I would certainly hope they would stop him at all costs from harming another even if that meant they had to kill him.

 

This debate is making me think of a book titled The Truth Machine. There is now a 'perfect' lie detector, so crimes are swiftly discovered and punished - with no thought to whether the criminal is mentally ill or not, that is seen as irrelevant. The victim is dead regardless of the motive or mental state of the criminal; it is not taken into account. I'm going by memory, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate, and it's a very interesting read.