SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[Jennifer3141]

 

We can marry right here in good old Washington State. But our husbands just miiiigggghhht have an issue with it, no? :)

 

That would be dependent upon my husband's mood at the very least. He might find it interesting but what I can tell you? We're pervs because we have no morals. :D

[Guest inoubliable]

We can marry right here in good old Washington State. But our husbands just miiiigggghhht have an issue with it, no? :)

That would be dependent upon my husband's mood at the very least. He might find it interesting but what I can tell you? We're pervs because we have no morals. :D

 

You two are cracking me up. I had to explain to DH what I was laughing about when I spit out some tortilla chip all over him. And now he wants to know, "Well do I get invited to your lesbian wedding?" I guess I'd better go find me a partner! LOL.

[Guest inoubliable]

o,0

 

On the Quiverfull thing - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull#Notable_adherents

"Farris, a conservative United States constitutional lawyer, founded the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) and Patrick Henry College. His wife Vickie is the author of A Mom Just Like You (2002). The couple has ten children and six grandchildren.^[41][42]"

 

This explains a lot regarding those fearful emails the HSLDA sends out occasionally.

[Audrey]

 

I just googled that. I think that's what I was thinking of. I read a few things.

 

I have no more words just now.

 

 

Quiverfull isn't a sect or denomination, though. There are quiverfull components to several Christian "groups" (mostly the evangelical fundamental sects). On paper, the RCC is quiverfull despite how many Catholics might use birth control. It is one of "The Church's" strictures, so it doesn't matter how many Catholics don't follow that rule, it's still RCC. Some orders of Mennonites are also of the quiverfull mindset, although that only seems to be the conservative orders. There are also some Islamic sects that are quiverfull minded.

 

There are probably more, but IMO, you are most likely to find the quiverfull mindset in the most patriarchal sects. It's one of those strictures that seem designed to ensure a woman's servitude and disconnect from any pursuits or life outside the family home. "Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant" is one of the most repugnant forms of patriarchy AFAIC.

[Audrey]

o,0

 

On the Quiverfull thing - http://en.wikipedia....table_adherents

"Farris, a conservative United States constitutional lawyer, founded the Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) and Patrick Henry College. His wife Vickie is the author of A Mom Just Like You (2002). The couple has ten children and six grandchildren.^[41][42]"

 

This explains a lot regarding those fearful emails the HSLDA sends out occasionally.

 

 

The whole quiverfull thing comes from Psalm 127:

Children are a heritage of the Lord and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.

Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. They shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

 

So, you have to understand that it is not just about having as many children as you can (to keep the woman down), but really about amassing an "army for god/jesus," so that the boys can go out and take on the heathen enemies and the girls can breed more "soldiers for god/jesus."

[albeto]

Well I hope you had a nice landing!! :D

 

Hehe, soft enough. I should prepare for the inevitable next launch, I suspect.

 

It would be awesome to think that the people who should be embarressed to be hateful and discriminatory would be but I'm afraid that by calling names...

 

When calling bigoted behavior "bigotry" is considered, "calling names," people aren't listening, they're reacting.

 

(especially on an internet message board) all that does is marginalize those people and entice them to put their headphones and blinders on and then everyone who is kind of on the sidleines trying to figure out where they fall sees them as victims. Then it becomes a matter of protecting the poor picked on bigots, before the bystanders themselves too are turned on by the droves of raving homosexual atheists. :lol:

 

That's a shame. Chalk that up to one more problem with religious thinking - convincing people that personal emotions are more valuable than information.

 

But you're not going to embarress any one of those kinds of people. They are unembarressable. First of all, they think they are in some sort of jihad and every time you strike back with name calling, they get to turn themselves into martrys just a little bit more. They truly believe you and I are out to get their kids and make them gay and rip them from god's boobies. You can't embarress that. I can't even type it without laughing but once you've gone waaaayyy down the road of that thinking, that isn't going to change by any post on the internet - no matter how clever or intelligent or logical or funny that post may be.

 

I hear you, there. So in that case, when any mention of any concept that doesn't flatter them is interpreted as offensive and name-calling (despite the actual lack of calling any poster any name), why bother pandering to the most delicate of egos? It's an impossible goal. Why not conduct a conversation based on facts and information? In the mean time, people who aren't deluded into thinking any negative comment is a personal attack will be able to read and discern the value of any given argument, right?

 

Let them run away from organizations for becoming progressive. Let them make their creepy little cult groups and wait for the second coming of cheebiz. Humanity has been under religion's thumb for a loooooong time. We aren't going to fix that in the next 10 years, despite how awesome Facebook and the internet are. But it is going to be harder and harder to hide under rocks because if there's one thing humans like more than making gods up, it's learning. There may be one or two or 100 people who want to live with their heads in the sand, but there are 100 million more who like their microwaves and smart phones.

 

I'm with you here, as well. :)

[albeto]

Or they will be woven into, or partially woven into currently held causes. A Pagan earth worshipper has much in common with every other environmentalist around. A kitchen witch could fit in with the slow food movement types, and every woman and her dog dabbles in aromatherapy and herbal medicine. Who is going to mind if the ingredients have been charged under the full moon if they smell nice and are reasonably priced?

 

You might be right, but if people decide the pagan interpretation of life is no more reliable than the Xian interpretation, then that will fizzle away, too, don't you think? Then again, I don't think superstitious thinking of any kind will ever leave human society. For that reason I think the blog posts have some interesting predictions.

 

Your imbedded quote was interesting. I think a lot of Wiccan ritual and dogma has been developed to legitimise it as a *proper* religion according to law but it serves a purpose for those fleeing Christianity. Do you think what he was saying seemed probable? I don't think it would be in an Australian context if we were left to our own devices, but we live in a global age so we're not. *shrug*

 

 

I do, if I recall the posts correctly. I watched a Ken Burns documentary about the Shakers with my daughter a few years ago and we were struck with the natural attraction the community had to formalizing behavior. Within a generation of the foundress' death, the original, impulsive "shaking" and "dancing" response to the faith was replaced with choreographed dances, practiced and rehearsed. Further, other rituals sneaked their way into daily life, such as leading a step with the right foot only, and a refusal to interact with the other gender. The once free-spirited colony became a rigidly guided community with punishment from inside as well as out. That's what religion does - trains the member to police him or herself in order to obey whatever standards are deemed appropriate. Human nature being what it is, we find patterns and correlations even between unrelated events, incorporating certain ideas into rituals in expectation of there being a connection. I think the only way to really prevent superstitious rituals of any kind is to counter with information and critical thinking skills. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

So, you have to understand that it is not just about having as many children as you can (to keep the woman down), but really about amassing an "army for god/jesus," so that the boys can go out and take on the heathen enemies and the girls can breed more "soldiers for god/jesus."

 

 

That is truly terrifying.

[albeto]

And on the BSA thing specifically, people still believe they or their kid will get attacked if they room/tent with a gay roommate?

 

Attacked or "tempted." I think the phrase, "contribute to my child's temptation" was actually used on the BSA thread.

 

How are these kids going to go to college?

 

Christian colleges, where teh gays don't go. ;)

 

Does this apply to girls as well as boys? (People seem to be more afraid of gay boys?)

 

Because when one man "violates" the other, that's wrong. What do women do? Kiss. That's hot. Wrong, but hot, dontchaknow.

 

And I was thinking of re-enrolling my boys in scouts, but I'm afraid of the Eagle board of review if they are somehow probing into Eagle Scouts' sexuality. I wanted to ask before the thread got locked, but I just don't understand how that comes up. Gay or straight, I don't want one of my kids' high school achievements to somehow be linked to an investigation of their sexuality. How does that come up? (serious question)

 

"Turn your head to the side and cough. Did you like that?"

 

Seriously, I can't imagine.

[LucyStoner]

 

On paper, the RCC is quiverfull despite how many Catholics might use birth control. It is one of "The Church's" strictures, so it doesn't matter how many Catholics don't follow that rule, it's still RCC.

 

The Catholic Church explicitly condones and allows for fertility awareness and for abstaining. While that is quite restrictive, it is nothing compared to what is promulgated by those fashioning themselves quiverfull. Also, it is rare IME to encounter a Catholic priest who will counsel or pressure a couple to keep having children when there are health and stability concerns. There very few Catholics who claim to be quiverfull. They are out there, but it is pretty uncommon. Quiverfull explicitly opposes any planning to avoid pregnancy in marriage.

[LucyStoner]

I totally agree with Audrey that patriarchal forms of Christianity seem to go hand in hand with quiverfull. It's all just very disturbing. If there were a god in the Christian sense, he wouldn't have given women clear fertility signs or 9 month gestational periods, reduced fertility in breastfeedjng or menopause for that matter. (Heck, or created rubber tree sap for all those darn condoms.) For the goal of having as many kids as possible, there sure are plenty of de facto limits on getting pregnant.

[Audrey]

 

That is truly terrifying.

 

 

 

But if you believe that converting souls is a mandate from your god, then its a glorious mission.

[Izzy]

"Rowthorn has developed a model that shows that the genetic components that predispose a person toward religion are currently “hitchhiking†on the back of the religious cultural practice of high fertility rates. Even if some of the people who are born to religious parents defect from religion and become secular, the religious genes they carry (which encompass other personality traits, such as obedience and conservativism) will still spread throughout society, according to the model’s numerical simulations."

 

This quote is from a page I found on the religion gene. It sounds like there's a biological reason having "armies for god" works so well to spread religion. This gene can be passed to the children but even if it's not passed to that child it can still be passed to the next generation. Generally speaking, people who don't carry the gene take a more Humanistic approach and not have as many kids or if they do they are more likely to adopt. So Secular Humanism/Athiesm isn't being spread but that's not what a Humanist is trying to do anyways. OTOH a quiver full or a religious large family does their part in spreading the gene.

 

This could explain why the non religious groups are growing as family size is shrinking.

 

[Ipsey]

:iagree:

 

If my son's sexuality was ever an issue in scouting, I am seriously liable to punch the person raising it. It's just SICK to think of a panel of mostly older men quizzing my son on the topic.

 

This is a tricky issue in the LDS church as well. I've had ex-Mormon friends (I always tend to have a ton of Mormon friends--though a lot more exMormons nowadays) who often point to their "temple recommend interviews." Sexual "purity" is a very big issue for members of the LDS church (it's why you often see them, on the board, come down very hard on masturbation). Boys, and sometimes girls, are asked whether they masturbate or not, and if they do, they can be denied a temporary recommend to perform proxy baptisms for the dead. This is also a terrible, painful struggle for missionaries. They can be reprimanded if they admit to masturbation, and some of my ex-mish friends have admitted (blushing) that they felt their self-love was the reason they didn't have many converts/got so homesick/got ill etc. on their missions.

 

I didn't know whether to believe them at first, honestly. It was shocking to me that parents would let their child go into a room, alone, with a man and let him ask questions* (ones that could address sexual issues). But, I've heard it from many different people in all parts of the US. I don't know what it's like overseas though. Also, I did live near Utah and one time. . . so, I know the LDS church is a big more strident there.

 

It seems to depend on the man performing the "worthiness interviews," too, but it's not unusual.

 

Not a lot of privacy there, so who know what and LDS Scout troop might think is ok to quiz a boy about.

 

*I'd feel differently if this was a medical issue, but not a religious issue!

[Lady Florida.]

I never seem to find time to do more on this thread than click like, or post a quick response to what someone else posted. Here are some random things I've been meaning to post.

 

As far as atheists being "in your face", that kind of atheism actually helped me let go of belief. PZ Myers, who pulls no punches, and the people who comment on his blog, made me take a hard look at my beliefs. (His hard line anti-homeschooling stance bothers me though. He refused to believe secular homeschoolers exist.) In all fairness though, by the time I found some angry atheist websites I was already questioning things. While I agree that the most religious people will dig in their heels when called things like bigots, there may be those who are on the edge and such talk will push them over into non-belief. I was one of them. I think someone here (albeto? kk?) mentioned that there are usually more people reading those threads there are people responding to them. You never know who is out there, and by speaking plainly it might help someone take the final leap away from faith.

 

I had no idea there were people who didn't accept evolution (I refuse to use the phrase "believe in" when referring to science) until we started homeschooling. Whether it's intelligent design or strict creationism, they think it's on the same level as science. Blows my mind.

 

I don't think Richard Dawkins is "mean". He doesn't pull any punches, and he challenges those who question him about science, but he isn't mean to the average religious person. It took me 3 tries to read The God Delusion, but I'm glad I finally read it. Look how polite he is to this total idiot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULv2B51HY80

 

I'm tired of religion getting a pass when it comes to being criticized. Why are we atheists the bad guys, the mean ones, just for questioning what we believe is foolish? We point out that the emperor has no clothes and we get chastised for it. I think it's because most intelligent religious people are afraid to examine their beliefs too closely. It's because they're intelligent that they're afraid of what they'll come away with.

 

I know there were more things I thought of that I wanted to post, but they're not coming to me right now. Hopefully I'll have time soon to be more active in this thread.

[Jennifer3141]

You have to laugh at trying to govern masturbation. What's next? Poo size? If it's got corn in it, you're going straight to h-e-double hockeysticks!

Seriously, you have to wonder about the leaders who make this stuff up. So you expect me to believe that LDS men don't handle that? Yeah. Right. 100s of thousands of years of evolution but only they figured out how to stop that. :laugh:

 

Why stop it? Or care about it? You have to wonder whose life it was interfering with!! I would be embarressed to have that as part of my mandate. Why the heck are they worrying about it so much!?! Issues much??

 

Did anyone else hear the NPR story on L. Ron Hubbard the other day? Another whacko. :laugh:

[BrookValley.]

You have to laugh at trying to govern masturbation. What's next? Poo size? If it's got corn in it, you're going straight to h-e-double hockeysticks!

 

 

 

Hehe. I got pics of rally signs for that (If anyone isn't familiar with the whack-a-do who inspired the sign, just google Christine O'Donnell; have the brain bleach handy):

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55341827@N02/5132443255/

 

And just because it fits...

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55341827@N02/5132978256/

 

 

Linking to my flikr album 'cause I'm not sure if they would be considered appropriate (by moderators) if I posted the actual graphics.

[albeto]

I'm tired of religion getting a pass when it comes to being criticized. Why are we atheists the bad guys, the mean ones, just for questioning what we believe is foolish? We point out that the emperor has no clothes and we get chastised for it. I think it's because most intelligent religious people are afraid to examine their beliefs too closely. It's because they're intelligent that they're afraid of what they'll come away with.

 

 

If being tired of tolerating the taboo against challenging religious claims makes me an "angry atheist," then so be it, but I'm tired of it too. But I'm not just tired of it, I'm concerned and won't let my silence be mistaken for consent. Your post reminded me of the following blog post (pictures too big to post):

 

The year is 2013. In some of the most advanced countries on the planet, most of the children are being taught the fact about the boat that fit 2 of every animal onboard. They’re being taught the fact about being whizbanged up into the clouds on the day Jesus comes again. Or the Fact that human sexuality is a choice. Or the FACT that a 5 day old blastocyst has a soul, feels pain, and is arguably more precious than its host.

 

The year is 2013. The most relentlessly violent region of the world is an active threat to the entirety of the human species because one side can’t convince the other that god promised the land to them.

 

The year is 2013. We can see 14 billion light-years into our cosmic past and we can also have a person with special powers reserved for a select few tell us what our deceased grandparents are eating up in heaven.

 

The year is 2013. Stem cell research, gay rights, abortion rights, indeed civil rights of all kinds are being actively barricaded, monopolized, impeded, and stonewalled for reasons which, when boiled down to their simplest argument, read something like this: God wouldn’t like that.

 

 

[chiguirre]

Hehe. I got pics of rally signs for that (If anyone isn't familiar with the whack-a-do who inspired the sign, just google Christine O'Donnell; have the brain bleach handy):

 

 

Well, at least, she wasn't a witch!

 

:laugh:

 

Looking back, 2010 was a good year for comedy!

[Lady Florida.]

Hehe. I got pics of rally signs for thathttp://www.flickr.com/photos/55341827@N02/5132443255/

 

You should have warned us not to take a drink before clicking on that one. "Not simulaneously" :rofl:

[BrookValley.]

Well, at least, she wasn't a witch! :laugh: Looking back, 2010 was a good year for comedy!

 

 

I believe this was the back side of the first sign.

 

 

You should have warned us not to take a drink before clicking on that one. "Not simulaneously" :rofl:

 

(anymore)

 

you gotta read the really fine print, too! lol

[Lady Florida.]

(anymore)

 

you gotta read the really fine print, too! lol

 

 

I missed that. That's even better.

[Guest inoubliable]

I never seem to find time to do more on this thread than click like, or post a quick response to what someone else posted. Here are some random things I've been meaning to post.

 

As far as atheists being "in your face", that kind of atheism actually helped me let go of belief. PZ Myers, who pulls no punches, and the people who comment on his blog, made me take a hard look at my beliefs. (His hard line anti-homeschooling stance bothers me though. He refused to believe secular homeschoolers exist.) In all fairness though, by the time I found some angry atheist websites I was already questioning things. While I agree that the most religious people will dig in their heels when called things like bigots, there may be those who are on the edge and such talk will push them over into non-belief. I was one of them. I think someone here (albeto? kk?) mentioned that there are usually more people reading those threads there are people responding to them. You never know who is out there, and by speaking plainly it might help someone take the final leap away from faith. I know what you mean. PZ is an amazing guy, but his homeschool thing pisses me off. I've written him about it and well, the response wasn't what I was hoping. I do participate in pharyngulating sometimes, though, and enjoy his blog. And this http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/p-z-pouts-and-rages-as-cats-sweep-to-victory/ cracked me up while it was going on. I admit to being on the WEIT true side there.

 

I had no idea there were people who didn't accept evolution (I refuse to use the phrase "believe in" when referring to science) until we started homeschooling. Whether it's intelligent design or strict creationism, they think it's on the same level as science. Blows my mind. This reminds me of this http://oneblueeye.me/2011/you-dont-get-to-not-believe-in-facts I didn't know, for a while, the people really don't "believe" in evolution. I thought they said that as a way of saying that they "prefer" to subscribe to the creationism thing because they didn't want to get in trouble with their sky fairy. And then some people told me that, no, they really really really do BELIEVE that's how it went down. :ohmy:

 

I don't think Richard Dawkins is "mean". He doesn't pull any punches, and he challenges those who question him about science, but he isn't mean to the average religious person. It took me 3 tries to read The God Delusion, but I'm glad I finally read it. Look how polite he is to this total idiot. Agree. And, although Hitchens was a bit more colorful and a bit louder when he was interviewed or debated or challenged, I'd say he got his point across well, too. If no one has heard/seen a good Hitch-slap, get thee to Youtube asap.

 

I'm tired of religion getting a pass when it comes to being criticized. Why are we atheists the bad guys, the mean ones, just for questioning what we believe is foolish? We point out that the emperor has no clothes and we get chastised for it. I think it's because most intelligent religious people are afraid to examine their beliefs too closely. It's because they're intelligent that they're afraid of what they'll come away with. Agree. It does make me angry that atheists are still treated as second class citizens. I have some links to share but will have to do more digging to grab them. (I seriously need to organize my bookmarks!)

 

I know there were more things I thought of that I wanted to post, but they're not coming to me right now. Hopefully I'll have time soon to be more active in this thread. Thank you for sharing. Hope you see you around more!

 

[Jennifer3141]

If being tired of tolerating the taboo against challenging religious claims makes me an "angry atheist," then so be it, but I'm tired of it too. But I'm not just tired of it, I'm concerned and won't let my silence be mistaken for consent. Your post reminded me of the following blog post (pictures too big to post):

 

 

I'm utterly tired of it too. I cannot wait until we all wake up.

 

However, how many of us are former Xtians of any form? I am. And heck I tried them ALL. Started out Reformed, converted through the RCIA program to Catholocism, went to a Wesleyan church and then lastly a Christian Reformed church with my ex. The one thing I can tell you is that people were cycling in and out with me. You know what drove them out? CHRISTIANS.

 

I think churches would have better chances for success if they limited the interactions of their members. Just put your book on a chair and let people read together. Good grief.

 

I simply don't want to see athesim go down the same path. Deconversion is a form of conversion. It's the last step but it's still a step.

 

I'm so much more content here than I ever was. I get the anger. I feel it too. Heck, I danced and danced watching the RR fall in November.

 

If we as a collective ONLY mock and insult and belittle, we will never be able to change people's minds. We're going to look like scary lunatics. Mock and insult when you need to because the stupidity sometimes just BURNS but try not to let it be the ONLY way you communicate.

 

If an atheist and a Xtian are in the street and "debating" god, and the Xtian goes bat poo crazy but you as an atheist stand your ground calmly, passersby are going to see that. Anyone with an inkling of doubt is way more likely to pause and think, "Geez. Why is that nut screaming so much?!?!" We've got to be a safe place for the doubters. We WANT the doubters!! You have to be SMART to doubt.

 

20% of Americans (at least) now identify as "non-religious." That's progress!!! Just keep calm and let the whackos continue to drive the thinking members of their churches away. Doing that has more than one consequence. I've watched more than one church around here collapse when just a few families left. You know why? Doubters are thinkers and thinkers make the money. (Same as the blue verses red states!) You take the money away and POOF! You're left with a broke, powerless group of whackos.

 

I've picked more than my share of wars with the non-thinking Xtians here too. But someone very quietly once asked for confirmation of what I was saying because she was doubting and you know what? She's deconverted in very small part because I STFU for just a moment.

 

I especially think we need to avoid looking nutty because it feels like we are being inundated with nuttiness from the outside world right now. We have whackos walking into schools and blowing kids away. Avoid the whacko whenever you can.

 

Get snarky in private all you want though. I ADORE a good message or email we can all laugh about.

[Izzy]

Jennifer, I am an ex Xtian too. Your post reminded me of the 5 stages of deconversion. I went through all 5 stages over 4 years. I still go back and forth between acceptance and anger. I didn't want to link because this comes from a forum for ex-christians. Beware - it's long!

 

 

Phase 0 - The Pre-deconversion

This step really isn't a step at all. This is just the generalized time before deconversion. In this phase you are 100% committed to your belief, you call yourself a christian, you think of yourself as a christian, you know all the ways to answer all the questions about your faith and the idea of not being a christian has yet to enter your mind. This phase could be brief or quite lengthy, but it is characterized by the complete lack of questioning about your faith. You may be confronted about your faith by others, and you respond with all the "right" answers, but you yourself have yet to put your belief under the microscope. Some can go their whole lives without ever leaving this state, but we are talking about deconversion here, so on to phase 1.

 

Phase 1 - Curiosity killed the cat.

 

This is what I would consider to be the real first step toward deconversion; The point at which you first examine your own faith. Now, this can come about in many ways. For some, their zeal for discovering more about their religion leads them to examine themselves, ironically enough this quest for a greater faith leads them towards a lesser (or non-existent) one. For others, this questioning process is brought about by the inquiries of others. One particularly poignant question becomes the seed from which reason sprouts. Others still may find that in their increased knowledge of the natural world, they find things in conflict or even contradiction to their previously held beliefs. Sadly, many... far too many come to this step through tragedy or hardship, when the question isn't about religion per se, but about the nature of god itself. "How could god let this happen?" or "Why would he let this happen to us" or such questions simply cannot be answered to any satisfaction.

 

There are many other ways this questioning process can be kicked off, but the point is that at some point the walls around your faith that protected it from introspection yield. I have a suspicion that most believers encounter this phase of deconversion at least once in their life of faith, though most find cause to ignore or suppress it. The bible itself warns against such questioning. The entire apologetics industry is designed to push phase 1ers back to phase 0, as demonstrated by the fact that anyone well into their deconversion (not to mention anyone of other faiths or non-faiths) find apologetic arguments laughable or downright insulting.

Phase 2 - The quest for answers.

 

Ok, so now you've got a mind full of questions... or maybe just one or two particularly persistent ones. Who has the answers? For most, the first place we look is also the least helpful, religion. We scour the bible, meet with our pastor, call up our strong christian brothers and sisters. We peruse christian message boards and we read christian literature. So careful are we to avoid any secular literature for fear that it may seek to lead us away from our faith. The answer-seekers are convinced that they are still trying to save their faith, to fortify it with godly answers. This phase is characterized by one emotion; Fear.

 

It is a particular brand of fear, I can liken it most to the feeling of being lost. Like you were hiking in the woods and lose your bearings, all of the sudden you are struck by this sense of "I don't know where I am." Luckily for you, you are surrounded by others and can simply ask for directions. Unfortunately the answers you get are thoroughly unsatisfying. In fact, sometimes your questions aren't answered at all, but rather turned around onto you as some sort of flaw in your faith. You are told to consult the tour guide, but he just tells you to stay with the flock, and go read your guidebook. You check your guidebook but it barely seems to make sense anymore; "What the hell are these guys talking about palm trees for? I'm in the rocky mountains!!"

 

In your search to find slightly more satisfying answers, you find a secular source. It may be by accident, a non-religious friend or relative, or it may be on purpose under the guise of curiosity, such as stumbling onto exchristians.net, but none-the-less you find someone, somewhere, who will actually answer your questions. However, far from sealing this one tiny leak in your otherwise unsinkable faith-tanic, you are spurred on to new questions, until you inevitably find yourself at "the" question, and the answer isn't 42.

Phase 3 - Do I believe?

 

Most people, I find, don't actually ask this question until their deconversion is at such a point that the answer is "No". We skirt around the question, avoiding it for fear of the consequences. This can be a very desperate time for some, especially if your whole life is built on a christian foundation. It isn't just a question of changing perspective, but of giving up everything you've ever known. Desperately, you seek the counsel of your friends and mentors, but to your surprise your hints at a failing faith are met with hostility, condemnation, and rebuke. I suspect that this is because your open questioning of faith sheds light on their private questioning of faith and their aggression is really a defensive maneuver. Either way, this can be a very lonely time, one at which you fell isolated from your normal support group, if not physically isolated, than emotionally isolated. Some are lucky to find others of fading faith for support, others unfortunately face this transition alone.

 

In some ways, and for some people however, this can be a very liberating process. If you find yourself in a religiously neutral environment, the pursuit of knowledge of the world and yourself can be exciting, filled with new discoveries every day. You can throw off the shackles that bound you to your faith and are free to explore all sorts of new things you may have never heard of before.

 

Nevertheless, at some point the question is asked, by yourself or by someone else; "Do you believe?" and you answer, "No."

Phase 4 Anger

 

"Congratulations! You are now a non-believer. Here is your hat and t-shirt. We're having a bake-sale this Saturday at the park and I'll go ahead and sign you up for our newsletter...." Well, not exactly. When you converted, there was all sorts of pomp and circumstance. People were showering you with attention, everyone was your friend and you were instantly tied into a new social group. Your moment of deconversion, the moment you first answer that question "No", by contrast is wholly unsatisfying. The sky doesn't part, lightning doesn't strike your house, demons don't stab you in the ass with pitchforks... In a way you almost wish you did get stabbed in the ass, at least there would be something that happened to signify your deconversion, some sort of moment in time that you could point to as the beginning of a new life. We could all sit around and talk about our deconversion moment: I'd ask, "So when did you get stabbed in the ass with a pitchfork?" and you'd reply, "Oh, it was back in aught-six, I was visiting my parents for christmas. Do you want to see the scar?" at which point I'd reply, "No thanks.... You should really pull up your pants now, this is awkward."

 

Unfortunately for all of us, there is no signifying moment of deconversion. We still live the same life we did, but now we are constantly bombarded with reminders of our old faith. We can feel very rejected, very hurt, insulted, or degraded. You end up feeling embarrassed by your former belief, and you feel so dumb for falling victim to it for so long. You feel betrayed by the people you trusted so much to tell you the truth of the world. Above all things, you begin to feel angry.

 

And you should feel angry! You were lied to, you were kept in fear. You expected love from these people but they were just using you. When you needed support while giving up your faith, they told you it was your fault! How dare they! These people called themselves your friends but once you had a little ideological difference they abandoned you, they judged you, they completely ignored you. Oh the hypocrisy! They stole your life from you, you'll never get those years back. All the embarrassing things I've said to non-religious co-workers and friends. How could I have been such a fool! etc...

 

For many, many of us, the anger phase lasts a long time. It manifests itself in all sorts of ways, sometimes overtly, sometimes passively. Don't get me wrong, it's good to feel anger, it is good to get these feelings out, but at some point the anger must give way. The anger feels so good, it is so emotionally satisfying that we sometimes want to hang onto it too long, but we must give it up to move on to phase 5.

Phase 5 Acceptance

The ultimate tragedy of being a deconvert is the fact that even though we stop believing, we won't let it go. Imagine your old faith like a car. For a while you loved it, you took care of it and drove it all the time but one day it breaks down. You get out and try to fix it, but you can't. You ask a mechanic but he just asks for 10% of your income and tells you to fix it yourself. You consult the user manual but it was written for a horse-and-buggy. In desperation, you start kicking the car, swearing at it, throwing rocks at it. You hate it, and somehow punishing it for leaving you stranded makes you feel some amount of relief. You push it home, kicking it and swearing at it the whole way. You get up in the middle of the night just to take a leak in the gas tank. Then you start acting weird.

 

You start pushing the car wherever you go, breaking out the windows and scratching the paint. You get a new car and tow the old one behind it just so it's available for abuse whenever you need. You may even attack other peoples cars of the same make and model; "Your car's garbage! Throw it away, you can't depend on it!" Admit it, you actually enjoy being mad at your car.

 

For a time that anger is very therapeutic, it helps you cope with the loss of a major component of your life. Now however, your life is just as consumed with this car as it was when it worked, and you don't even get to drive it anymore! To truly be past it, you need to go ahead and drop it off at the dump. You don't need to rush yourself, have fun tearing the hunk-o-junk up, but wouldn't it be nice to live a life that didn't revolve around the old christ-moble anymore?

 

[Jennifer3141]

Izzy, that is just plain beautiful!!! Thank you so much for putting that out there.

[Izzy]

You're welcome. :) It's amazing how similar deconverts' stories can be. I found a lot of comfort in knowing I wasn't alone.

[Guest inoubliable]

Izzy, that is just plain beautiful!!! Thank you so much for putting that out there.

 

 

Was that an unauthorized love bank deposit you just made?

 

Kidding, kidding. I think. That "married and no friends who wear pants" discussion has got me.

[Guest inoubliable]

You're welcome. :) It's amazing how similar deconverts' stories can be. I found a lot of comfort in knowing I wasn't alone.

 

 

I never thought of people going through steps! I need to read through that more and see if I can find times in my life where I went through those steps. For me, it seems like one day I just woke up and said "this makes no sense" and then no one was willing to give me any answers so atheism seemed the only logical thing to describe me. I was a child, though. I was born and raised in the RCC and it made very little sense to me very early on.

[Guest inoubliable]

http://video.pbs.org/video/2325563509?starttime=1200000

 

The PBS documentary The Revisionaries can be watched online now for a limited time.

From IMDB "The theory of evolution and a re-write of American history are caught in the crosshairs when an unabashed Creationist seeks re-election as chairman of America's most influential Board of Education."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2091398/

 

We'll be watching tonight.

[deannajo]

 

I first started coming to this forum in 2001 or 2002. It was fundie central. No kidding. Just FULL of very vocal ultra-conservative American evangelical Christians. Of course, the membership was much, much smaller then. The majority of the regulars from that time have been long gone -- some banned, some graduated their kids and moved on, some left after complaining that the boards weren't Christian enough anymore. About the time that SWB pulled the plug on political discussions, a bunch more of them left, too.

 

See? Progress. ;)

 

 

I was actually coming here around then too - I didn't last long, and I don't think I even created a user ID - but I had read TWTM around then, and was hanging out here to get advice and suggestions - I lurked for several months and then just stopped coming. I visited sporadically over the years, but didn't feel I belonged here until recently - and in the past 6 months or so, I've been coming more and more regularly, and trying to post some too. Its so much different from what it was!!!

[deannajo]

I'm working my way up, so if I'm repeating posts, I apologize. Anyway, this is my first winter in Portland, and its lovely - we've had two or so "cold" days so far - I put cold in quotes because we moved here from the midwest, and despite how the Oregonians responded, those days were so not COLD :blink: - these people don't know cold :lol: - today its around 50 degrees. It is rainy here though - I like it, but I know that isn't for everyone. This is the perfect climate for me - not too hot in the summers, not too cold in the winters. Everything is so green and pretty (because of all the rain) and the sunny season is just amazing!

 

But... Portland is supposed to have really nice weather year-round! http://en.wikipedia...._Oregon#Climate

Never really gets cold enough to snow, doesn't even get much snow. I can get behind that!

 

[Mnemosyne]

I'm working my way up, so if I'm repeating posts, I apologize. Anyway, this is my first winter in Portland, and its lovely - we've had two or so "cold" days so far - I put cold in quotes because we moved here from the midwest, and despite how the Oregonians responded, those days were so not COLD :blink: - these people don't know cold :lol: - today its around 50 degrees. It is rainy here though - I like it, but I know that isn't for everyone. This is the perfect climate for me - not too hot in the summers, not too cold in the winters. Everything is so green and pretty (because of all the rain) and the sunny season is just amazing!

 

 

Portland is a very nice area. I love visiting there. I'm from just north of you in WA, but stuck for the next year in GA... the difference is quite amazing. I think I definitely prefer the NW.

[albeto]

If we as a collective ONLY mock and insult and belittle, we will never be able to change people's minds.

 

I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to expose hypocrisy, supremacy, bigotry, ignorance and the like without offending someone. At this point in my life, I feel like letting the nannies take care of the whiners. I'd much rather talk with mature adults.

 

We're going to look like scary lunatics.

 

Only to those who react negatively to being confronted with their denials.

 

Mock and insult when you need to because the stupidity sometimes just BURNS but try not to let it be the ONLY way you communicate.

 

I'm not sure why you're making this point. Are you understanding me to advocate only mockery and insults? I'm not. I'm advocating rational, reasonable discussion.

 

Get snarky in private all you want though. I ADORE a good message or email we can all laugh about.

 

 

I'll get snarky in public if I think it's warranted, and amusing.

[Ipsey]

http://video.pbs.org...arttime=1200000

 

The PBS documentary The Revisionaries can be watched online now for a limited time.

From IMDB "The theory of evolution and a re-write of American history are caught in the crosshairs when an unabashed Creationist seeks re-election as chairman of America's most influential Board of Education."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2091398/

 

We'll be watching tonight.

 

 

 

Watching this now.

 

Watching the opening prayer at 38:30 is exactly why prayer is NOT EVER an appropriate opening for a governmental proceeding.

 

This thing makes me sick.

 

I, like a couple of others have mentioned, have become angrier and angrier about religion as I go. I, honestly, hate most religion--even liberal stuff--because the foundation (essentially, wanting to believe in something fanciful) is untrustworthy.

 

This is exactly where it leads. :(

[lailasmum]

Here there has (rightly) been a lot of uproar about local council meetings beginning with prayers. It's basically been stopped recently but religious groups can come together prior to the council meeting to pray but it can't be part of the meeting itself. This is the BBC report about it last year.

[Guest inoubliable]

I would absolutely do what I must if prayer was being said at my local government meetings. Admittedly, I've not been to one here and so I don't know if that is happening or not. It wouldn't surprise me if it was. Although, we're very close to several cities in VA who had their "Tis The Season for Reason" banners vandalized and our city didn't even try to put up a manger scene in front of the courthouse. DH and I fully expected them to since our local paper was all over the Loudoun County vandals and were supporting the vandalism.

[Rosie_0801]

You might be right, but if people decide the pagan interpretation of life is no more reliable than the Xian interpretation, then that will fizzle away, too, don't you think? T

 

We are already out to sea if we are talking about *the* pagan interpretation of life. *shrug*

 

 

That's what religion does - trains the member to police him or herself in order to obey whatever standards are deemed appropriate.

 

That's what people do. If you destroy religion entirely, you'll be no better off. People will behave the same way with regard to politics, etiquette or something else.

 

Human nature being what it is, we find patterns and correlations even between unrelated events, incorporating certain ideas into rituals in expectation of there being a connection. I think the only way to really prevent superstitious rituals of any kind is to counter with information and critical thinking skills. I'm not holding my breath, though.

 

 

I don't think humans would be improved by removing all superstition and ritual. I think we'd be less human. I used to be with a fellow who valued thinking like a computer. It was interesting, and not in a good way, from my pov. Some superstition, myth and ritual has a negative affect, absolutely. Take it all away and I think humankind would be stronger to the point of weakness. But now we're getting into philosophy an/or science fiction. :p How to take those things away en masse and still have spiritually, emotionally healthy people is tricky. Alain de Botton has gone into some of that with his book Religion for Atheists. I haven't read it, but listened to the podcast early last year.

 

 

Now, I need to yell a little about discussing evolution with ID people who don't know what evolution really means and even worse, people who aren't even religious but can't tell that evolution is science and ID is religion. Here goes:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH.

 

Didn't help much, but did a little. Thanks for listening. :p

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

 

 

I live in Austin and have not had problems here. There are mostly Christian homeschool groups and co-ops but there is a large inclusive group and plenty of secular activities. As far as the non homeschooling world, people don't talk about religion. It's just not an issue. But Austin is a very liberal city in a very conservative state.

 

 

I live near Austin and this is very true.

 

My son and I were part of a great liberal secular homeschool group for 7 years or so. All of our kids are in college or graduated and working now.

 

They all still keep in touch and get together very regularly (almost weekly) as an alumni group and we moms have made a book club, movie, out for drinks group out if it. It's fabulous.

 

There's a lot about Texas to . . . Dislike. But Austin and the burbs around it are fine. I'm a big, fat, out of the closet gay in an interracial relationship, Afro wearing hippie, and no one bats an eyelash at me. At least not to my face, but I'm the kind of girl who'd nip that in the bud, lol.

[albeto]

That's what people do. If you destroy religion entirely, you'll be no better off. People will behave the same way with regard to politics, etiquette or something else.

 

I disagree. Politics, etiquette, virtually every ideology can be held accountable to the details that support its premises. Religion is unique in that there is no possible way to hold the ideals accountable to reason. They are "revealed" in some completely subjective and unsupportable way.

 

I don't think humans would be improved by removing all superstition and ritual. I think we'd be less human.

 

I patently disagree with the idea that living without superstition and ritual makes me or anyone else "less human."

 

I used to be with a fellow who valued thinking like a computer. It was interesting, and not in a good way, from my pov. Some superstition, myth and ritual has a negative affect, absolutely. Take it all away and I think humankind would be stronger to the point of weakness. But now we're getting into philosophy an/or science fiction. :p How to take those things away en masse and still have spiritually, emotionally healthy people is tricky. Alain de Botton has gone into some of that with his book Religion for Atheists. I haven't read it, but listened to the podcast early last year.

 

Because... just look how screwed up Scandinavia is with all their rational approach to life?

 

Now, I need to yell a little about discussing evolution with ID people who don't know what evolution really means and even worse, people who aren't even religious but can't tell that evolution is science and ID is religion. Here goes:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH.

 

Didn't help much, but did a little. Thanks for listening. :p

 

 

I'd join the chorus with you if it would help.

 

:)

[Rosie_0801]

I disagree. Politics, etiquette, virtually every ideology can be held accountable to the details that support its premises. Religion is unique in that there is no possible way to hold the ideals accountable to reason. They are "revealed" in some completely subjective and unsupportable way.

 

You seem to be saying it is ok for people to behave like domineering jerks, spineless submissives or complete bs artists if they have a non-supernatural reason for it? Surely I'm misinterpreting you.

 

 

I patently disagree with the idea that living without superstition and ritual makes me or anyone else "less human."

 

I disagree with the idea that you or anyone else lives without ritual.

 

 

Because... just look how screwed up Scandinavia is with all their rational approach to life?

 

You've lost me there.

 

 

I'd join the chorus with you if it would help :)

 

 

Thanks for the offer, but no. Sadly it won't. :banghead: If it mentions the supernatural in any way, it is not science. A simple definition to understand. Argue all you like that science should not be defined that way, but in the meantime, supernatural is not science! GAH!

[Guest inoubliable]

I live near Austin and this is very true.

 

My son and I were part of a great liberal secular homeschool group for 7 years or so. All of our kids are in college or graduated and working now.

 

They all still keep in touch and get together very regularly (almost weekly) as an alumni group and we moms have made a book club, movie, out for drinks group out if it. It's fabulous.

 

There's a lot about Texas to . . . Dislike. But Austin and the burbs around it are fine. I'm a big, fat, out of the closet gay in an interracial relationship, Afro wearing hippie, and no one bats an eyelash at me. At least not to my face, but I'm the kind of girl who'd nip that in the bud, lol.

 

I almost just moved to Austin just now.

 

Seriously, thanks for sharing that. :)

[Lady Florida.]

Agree. And, although Hitchens was a bit more colorful and a bit louder when he was interviewed or debated or challenged, I'd say he got his point across well, too. If no one has heard/seen a good Hitch-slap, get thee to Youtube asapy

 

I can't quote because your text was within my quote, but oh how I wish Hitch didn't die.

 

 

 

If we as a collective ONLY mock and insult and belittle, we will never be able to change people's minds. We're going to look like scary lunatics. Mock and insult when you need to because the stupidity sometimes just BURNS but try not to let it be the ONLY way you communicate.

 

I don't think mock and insult should be the only way to communicate, but it certainly has its place.

 

Phase 4 Anger

We can feel very rejected, very hurt, insulted, or degraded. You end up feeling embarrassed by your former belief, and you feel so dumb for falling victim to it for so long. You feel betrayed by the people you trusted so much to tell you the truth of the world. Above all things, you begin to feel angry. And you should feel angry! You were lied to, you were kept in fear. You expected love from these people but they were just using you. When you needed support while giving up your faith, they told you it was your fault! How dare they! These people called themselves your friends but once you had a little ideological difference they abandoned you, they judged you, they completely ignored you. Oh the hypocrisy! They stole your life from you, you'll never get those years back. All the embarrassing things I've said to non-religious co-workers and friends. How could I have been such a fool! etc...

 

Thank you for sharing the phases. I agree with them for the most part. However, I believe the above will depend on the flavor of Christianity you came from. I never felt lied to. For one thing, the people (my family) who taught me those beliefs believed them too. They weren't lying to me, they were passing along what they believed to be true. Since I've always surrounded myself with open minded friends (religious or not), they did not abandon me when I stopped believing. Neither did my family. We already had some atheists in the family. I was just one more. :) I also never said things to non-believers that I'm now ashamed of, because I always believed that religion was a personal thing, I know I can't be the only one like this.

 

No, my anger is directed at people who want to legislate based on their religious beliefs. I've always been for the separation of church and state, but it I admit I've become more angry since letting go of belief.

 

 

 

I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to expose hypocrisy, supremacy, bigotry, ignorance and the like without offending someone.

 

This.

[Lady Florida.]

Now, I need to yell a little about discussing evolution with ID people who don't know what evolution really means and even worse, people who aren't even religious but can't tell that evolution is science and ID is religion. Here goes: AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH. Didn't help much, but did a little. Thanks for listening. :p

 

You are one brave woman. I've been watching that but would not be able to play nice, so I stayed out of it.

 

 

There's a lot about Texas to . . . Dislike. But Austin and the burbs around it are fine. I'm a big, fat, out of the closet gay in an interracial relationship, Afro wearing hippie, and no one bats an eyelash at me. At least not to my face, but I'm the kind of girl who'd nip that in the bud, lol.

 

Dh had family who lived in Dallas for a long time, but moved to Austin several years ago. HUGE difference. They love Austin! (I had to keep correcting because I'm reading Pride & Prejudice and kept trying to type Austen.)

[albeto]

You seem to be saying it is ok for people to behave like domineering jerks, spineless submissives or complete bs artists if they have a non-supernatural reason for it? Surely I'm misinterpreting you.

 

That is not what I mean to convey. Superstitious beliefs can (and have and do) inspire some horrifying events. Political beliefs can (and have and do) inspire some horrifying events as well. The difference is that political beliefs can be discussed, the details analyzed critically, finding value or revealing none in any given argument. Religious beliefs are exempt from this by their very nature. The details amount to what one *believes/thinks/imagines* is true.

 

I disagree with the idea that you or anyone else lives without ritual.

 

No doubt. Any rituals I may have, however, are not inspired by superstitious beliefs. Further, those of us who live free from superstitious beliefs are not "less human" for it.

 

You've lost me there.

 

These countries are among the least religious in the world and yet there is no indication they suffer the kind of dystopia suggested from freedom from religion (thinking like computers, being stronger to the point of weakness - whatever that means).

[dbmamaz]

mm, that was why i couldnt bring myself to become a pagan. too many rituals. i like routines to get things done, but not rituals for rituals sake.

 

never been deconverted from anything. still think of myself as culturally jewish tho i knew i didnt believe in god by the time i was 10, and my synagogue seemed ok with that. it was very liberal.

[katilac]

<snip> I disagree with the idea that you or anyone else lives without ritual. You've lost me there. Thanks for the offer, but no. Sadly it won't. :banghead: If it mentions the supernatural in any way, it is not science. A simple definition to understand. Argue all you like that science should not be defined that way, but in the meantime, supernatural is not science! GAH!

 

Your prior post had ritual and superstition hand-in-hand. Let's separate them: Do you think that getting rid of superstition alone leads to a less rich life? Or do you think the two are intrinsically tied together, and thus can't answer the question?

 

I think that one can have ritual without having superstition.

[Lady Florida.]

 

Was that an unauthorized love bank deposit you just made?

 

Kidding, kidding. I think. That "married and no friends who wear pants" discussion has got me.

 

 

I just caught up there. Now I understand this post as well as your new avatar. :)

[Rosie_0801]

That is not what I mean to convey. Superstitious beliefs can (and have and do) inspire some horrifying events. Political beliefs can (and have and do) inspire some horrifying events as well. The difference is that political beliefs can be discussed, the details analyzed critically, finding value or revealing none in any given argument. Religious beliefs are exempt from this by their very nature. The details amount to what one *believes/thinks/imagines* is true.

 

We might have to agree to disagree-ish there.

 

 

 

No doubt. Any rituals I may have, however, are not inspired by superstitious beliefs. Further, those of us who live free from superstitious beliefs are not "less human" for it.

 

No. I'm not saying removing superstitious belief is going to turn a person into some kind of robot or sci-fi style race. I don't see that people need to be liberated from their harmless little superstitious quirks though.

 

 

These countries are among the least religious in the world and yet there is no indication they suffer the kind of dystopia suggested from freedom from religion (thinking like computers, being stronger to the point of weakness - whatever that means).

 

Ja, look. I'm not explaining myself well and from the words of mine you are highlighting, I don't get the idea you are interested in putting the effort into helping me into commonly understood language. Maybe someone else will understand and reword, or maybe they won't.

[Guest inoubliable]

Harmless little superstitious quirks don't bother me in the least. I know older people who throw salt over their shoulders and people who won't park in the 13th space in a row. Meh. When people get superstitious like "if one more baby is aborted then god will throw a MAJOR temper tantrum and *I* don't want to have to deal with that so I'd better do what I can to make sure no one aborts a pregnancy!", that's when I have a problem.