SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[lailasmum]

I remember seeing a documentary a few years back about abstract and concrete thinking and religion. It's long enough ago that I can only vaguely remember what it was about. It was on the BBC. I remember it was trying to explore whether concrete thinkers are more religious and abstract thinker less so. It seemed to say that certain parts of the world tended to one type of thinking and it had something to do with genetics and therefore those parts of the world were more/less religious.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

This fascinates me too. I'm also interested in faith and the brain. I wish I'd been able to participate in a study about religious people! Then, maybe I could see how my brain has changed between the super religious faithful me, and the atheist me.

 

Also, I'm familiar with some studies that show a correlation between fear and conservatism. I thought this was fascinating, and I think it might tie in with the religions idea.

 

I'll look them up if anyone is interested in them.

 

I am interested.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

That is very interesting. I'm convinced my brain is different. LOL

 

LOL. I think so, too. In the most flattering way, of course. More seriously, I think there's something to this thought that genetics must play a role in how religious or not a person is. I think I'll do some googling today and see what I can come up with, too. I think I had some studies bookmarked that were to take place last year or early this year.

 

Sort of along that same thought, did anyone see the docu-series on The Rise of the Nones? I think it was done on PBS? I saw some clips on Patheos a while back. The report itself is interesting. 1 in 5 adults in the U.S. is unaffiliated now.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Unaffiliated/NonesOnTheRise-full.pdf

 

Some quick stats and graphs (because who doesn't love graphs??)

http://www.pewforum.org/unaffiliated/nones-on-the-rise.aspx

 

Some more interesting stats thrown out by Hemant Mehta. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/01/14/the-best-charts-about-the-rise-of-the-nones-youll-see-all-year

(His new book is aimed at high school aged kids struggling with their atheism when they're surrounded by the religious. Mentioned this as a possible resource for those of us struggling, and perhaps a good read for high school aged kiddos. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AB0XK2Y/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00AB0XK2Y&linkCode=as2&tag=wwwfriendlyat-20 )

[lailasmum]

This isn't the documentary I was talking about a few posts back but a different one, some of you might find it interesting.

A brief history of disbelief. There are 3 or 4 epsiodes I think.

[Ipsey]

 

I am interested.

 

Here's the original study. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/321/5896/1667/reply

 

You have to register to read it, but it's free--and it's SCIENCE magazine (!) YAY :)

[Guest inoubliable]

This isn't the documentary I was talking about a few posts back but a different one, some of you might find it interesting.

A brief history of disbelief. There are 3 or 4 epsiodes I think.

 

 

Thank you for sharing!

[Guest inoubliable]

Here's the original study. http://www.sciencema...5896/1667/reply

 

You have to register to read it, but it's free--and it's SCIENCE magazine (!) YAY :)

 

 

Thanks! This is very interesting!

[Guest inoubliable]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/29/16749268-christian-school-sues-ex-teachers-who-refused-to-give-proof-of-faith

 

Thoughts? Anyone in CA who can shine a light on the legal issues?

[Jennifer3141]

Today is an UGH day. We have GS at 3:00 and archery at 6:00. I'm going to have to be around people today!! Two batches of them!! I have to leabe my den today. <sigh>

 

Darnit, You all keep posting links I have to go read and then poof! there went my morning.

 

KK, I came on to see when our "fun" thread closed down last night. It made it a lot longer than I thought it would!!

[Lady Florida.]

I thought this was hilarious and sad.

 

http://www.colbertna...012/don-mcleroy

 

I can't seem to embed the actual video, but the link leads to Comedy Central and is about Texas textbooks. Funny how so many religious homeschoolers say they don't want the secular influence their children would get from going to school. I'm just the opposite. I'm glad I homeschool because I don't want religious people choosing my child's science books.

 

My favorite Colbert quotes from the interview:

 

"Science can be a personal choice."

 

"I've personally chosen that it is true."

 

"I have always been a fan of reality by majority vote."

 

 

I love it when Colbert rips his guest a new one and the guest doesn't even realize it's happening.

[Guest inoubliable]

LOL. I wasn't too surprised to see it go *poof*, but I was a little sad that my "glitter and fabulousness" point got deleted. I thought that was one of the least contentious points made! *shrug*

 

So I'll just leave this here.

 

http://imgur.com/xAB90Ea

[Guest inoubliable]

I thought this was hilarious and sad.

 

http://www.colbertna...012/don-mcleroy

 

I can't seem to embed the actual video, but the link leads to Comedy Central and is about Texas textbooks. Funny how so many religious homeschoolers say they don't want the secular influence their children would get from going to school. I'm just the opposite. I'm glad I homeschool because I don't want religious people choosing my child's science books.

 

My favorite Colbert quotes from the interview:

 

"Science can be a personal choice."

 

"I've personally chosen that it is true."

 

"I have always been a fan of reality by majority vote."

 

 

I love it when Colbert rips his guest a new one and the guest doesn't even realize it's happening.

 

 

Watching. I only saw some quotes posted somewhere and had the same thought that you did. One of the reasons that I homeschool was because of the non-secular stuff that was starting to creep into the local public schools. That and the fact that DS12 was getting some nastiness from classmates about his citizen status (he's Native American and Hispanic on his bio donor side) and his school refused to do anything about it or help him when he was standing up for Hispanic classmates getting bullied. But that's a whole 'nother story.

[Jennifer3141]

Watching. I only saw some quotes posted somewhere and had the same thought that you did. One of the reasons that I homeschool was because of the non-secular stuff that was starting to creep into the local public schools. That and the fact that DS12 was getting some nastiness from classmates about his citizen status (he's Native American and Hispanic on his bio donor side) and his school refused to do anything about it or help him when he was standing up for Hispanic classmates getting bullied. But that's a whole 'nother story.

 

 

I tell the crazy religious people at park day that we homeschool for religious reasons too. My religious reason is that I want to keep my children away from whackos who think people road around on dinosaurs 80 years ago. :D

The creepiness of some of this curriculum into public school textbooks is truly frightening.

 

So yes, I homeschool for religious reasons.

[Lady Florida.]

Darnit, You all keep posting links I have to go read and then poof! there went my morning. KK, I came on to see when our "fun" thread closed down last night. It made it a lot longer than I thought it would!!

 

What? Did a whole thread go poof? A fun thread? I always miss the good stuff.

[albeto]

I'm keeping busy by researching the possibility of a religious gene. I'm convinced there is a link between religion and intolerance. There has to be an evolutionary purpose?

 

 

Diane Benscoter talks about how cults rewire the brain. Richard Dawkins hypothesizes the evolutionary instinctual behavior for children to believe adults makes belief in religion easy to pass from one generation to the next. The evolutionary advantage of instinctual belief can be seen in emotional bonding (built in love/trust between infant and child), as well as safety. This promotes propagation of the species.

[Guest inoubliable]

What? Did a whole thread go poof? A fun thread? I always miss the good stuff.

 

 

Fun?

 

Well, it was full of the Boy Scouts and teh gehys and ChocolateReign dropped by. I thought it was fun!

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/451385-boy-scouts-may-revise-their-national-policy-regarding-inclusion-of-gays/page__hl__%20bsa

[BrookValley.]

I thought this was hilarious and sad.

 

http://www.colbertna...012/don-mcleroy

 

I can't seem to embed the actual video, but the link leads to Comedy Central and is about Texas textbooks. Funny how so many religious homeschoolers say they don't want the secular influence their children would get from going to school. I'm just the opposite. I'm glad I homeschool because I don't want religious people choosing my child's science books.

 

My favorite Colbert quotes from the interview:

 

"Science can be a personal choice."

 

"I've personally chosen that it is true."

 

"I have always been a fan of reality by majority vote."

 

 

I love it when Colbert rips his guest a new one and the guest doesn't even realize it's happening.

 

 

Watching Colbert in character take down someone unawares is seriously the best pastime evah.

 

We were at the Jon Stewart and Colbert "Rally to Restore Sanity/March to Keep Fear Alive" in DC a couple years ago. Sooooo much fun. Even better were the signs!

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Diane Benscoter talks about how cults rewire the brain. Richard Dawkins hypothesizes the evolutionary instinctual behavior for children to believe adults makes belief in religion easy to pass from one generation to the next. The evolutionary advantage of instinctual belief can be seen in emotional bonding (built in love/trust between infant and child), as well as safety. This promotes propagation of the species.

 

 

Nice TED talk find!

[Guest inoubliable]

Watching Colbert in character take down someone unawares is seriously the best pastime evah.

 

We were at the Jon Stewart and Colbert "Rally to Restore Sanity/March to Keep Fear Alive" in DC a couple years ago. Sooooo much fun. Even better were the signs!

 

 

I missed it, I was sick. :( But my friends went and brought me back one of the towels they were handing out.

[Lady Florida.]

 

Fun?

 

Well, it was full of the Boy Scouts and teh gehys and ChocolateReign dropped by. I thought it was fun!

http://forums.welltr.../page__hl__ bsa

 

 

 

Oh, I thought it was a separate thread.

[albeto]

 

Nice TED talk find!

 

 

 

Thanks. It's short, and doesn't say much, but I imagine she has a book that explains more.

 

This is one of my favorite TED Talks: Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions

[Jennifer3141]

What? Did a whole thread go poof? A fun thread? I always miss the good stuff.

 

 

 

You didn't miss it!! You were there before it went poof! Which reminds me... I have to call our local UU church with a question.

[Guest inoubliable]

I thought you were there! I admit to not following it too closely. I wasn't joking when I said I popped in just to make sure Choc.R was there and I could like the comments instead of having to blow a capillary in my eye from typing too hard and not tolerating the intolerance.

[Jennifer3141]

I thought you were there! I admit to not following it too closely. I wasn't joking when I said I popped in just to make sure Choc.R was there and I could like the comments instead of having to blow a capillary in my eye from typing too hard and not tolerating the intolerance.

 

I disagreed with CR on a couple of posters. There was one mom theere who said she didn't like the change but she would work with anyone and see how it went. I have respect for those people. Those are the people who hearts and minds can be opened and changed by positive experiences. If it happens, it will be a HUGE change for progress. It's not as big a change as I hope for but it's a definite step in the right direction. And if we narrow ourselves to only those people who share our exact non-belief then we are just as guilty as they are of ignorance.

 

I have been friends with Xtians. Distance ended a few of those frienships. Lunacy ended another but she really went nuts and it had zero to do with her faith. I don't really care what other people believe as long as we can all joke about it. My friend used to tease me about hell being just like the womyn's fest we met at - August in Michigan with 10,000 lesbians, porto potties, and nut loaf (Oh nut loaf, how I loathe you!!!). As long as there's no prosyletizing to my kids, I'm ok. I may think you're nuts privately and I don't necessarily want to hear about your spiritual Sunday service but I'm ok. I'll assume you don't want me to wax poetic about the consistency of my ducks' poo either.

 

So many Xtians have driven people from Xtianity that I don't want atheism to become just as bad. Who would want to go hang out with crazy angry people every other Thursday voluntarily?? As long as people keep their religion to themselves, I have no problem with them. Now try to creep your religious agenda in MY uterus or my kids' science books and then we will have a problem. Do whatever you want with your uterus. Heck, dress it up and buy it a Coldstone ice cream cone for all I care.

[Guest inoubliable]

Heh. I agree that it's a huge chance for progress. And I was happy to see that some people were not going to fight it even though they didn't agree. That still made me angry, though. Not going to fight it? How big of you. And, I didn't think anyone should get a prize for being outwardly tolerant just to go with the majority while openly embracing intolerance within a smaller community (their church) and passing it on to their kids. That annoys me. It doesn't strike me as tolerant, it smells of harboring resentment towards the masses and digging in your heels behind the curtain.

[Jennifer3141]

Heh. I agree that it's a huge chance for progress. And I was happy to see that some people were not going to fight it even though they didn't agree. That still made me angry, though. Not going to fight it? How big of you. And, I didn't think anyone should get a prize for being outwardly tolerant just to go with the majority while openly embracing intolerance within a smaller community (their church) and passing it on to their kids. That annoys me. It doesn't strike me as tolerant, it smells of harboring resentment towards the masses and digging in your heels behind the curtain.

 

 

 

I know. But you cannot change some people's minds. Death and eternal nothingness handles them. :D

 

I keep clinging to what George Willl said about gay marriage in America. GEORGE WILL!

We don't really have to do anything catastrophic. We just have to wait for that generation to die off. Civil rights for gay people IS coming. All over America. And that's ultimately a GREAT thing for progression because what if we just eliminated that idea that some sex is evil and means you're going down south? So if gay people don't go south after death, who does? Maybe we should just stop worrying about it??

 

I see these crazy conservative efforts to do things like ban atheists from high school diplomas and crazy uterine legislation as a latch ditch effort to bring back some sort of conservatism to the country. But the thing is, it's not working. More and more people have contact with gay people and think, "Meh. So what? Let's move on to real stuff!" The same is happening with atheism. More and more people are saying, "Whoa! I didn'y know you were an atheist!" and then sitting back and thinking, "Wait a second here... I thought you were supposed to be able to see the difference..." So the conservative movement just keeps throwing crazier and crazier stuff out there in a vain effort to appease their shrinking base.

 

I heard an evangelical on NPR yesterday talking about climate change and he was specifically asked about atheists. I loved his response that a quarter of Americans now don't believe or care about god. He said of course they have to work with atheists because all of the best scientists are and they cannot ignore hundreds of millions of Americans calling for change or we would just think they were nuts and ignore them. Some of them DO get it. And what he quoted from the bible was beautiful. If that inspires people to recycle, COOL.

[albeto]

I disagreed with CR on a couple of posters. There was one mom theere who said she didn't like the change but she would work with anyone and see how it went. I have respect for those people. Those are the people who hearts and minds can be opened and changed by positive experiences. If it happens, it will be a HUGE change for progress. It's not as big a change as I hope for but it's a definite step in the right direction. And if we narrow ourselves to only those people who share our exact non-belief then we are just as guilty as they are of ignorance.

 

In what way does pointing out bigotry and exposing hypocrisy "narrow ourselves to only those people who share our exact non-belief"? And in what capacity would that make one guilty? Guilty of what?

 

As long as there's no prosyletizing to my kids, I'm ok.

 

Some of us aren't okay because the proselytism *is* directed at our kids, and our neighbors' kids, and every child, adult, and infant in a society that incorporates (forces) religious beliefs into public policy.

 

So many Xtians have driven people from Xtianity that I don't want atheism to become just as bad. Who would want to go hang out with crazy angry people every other Thursday voluntarily??

 

Me. The angrier the better. That shows me they're aware of what's going on, and are not satisfied with being patronized by platitudes such as the idea that these beliefs are limited to the walls of their churches and religious organizations. This is patently untrue. As they say, Don't p*ss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

 

As long as people keep their religion to themselves, I have no problem with them.

They don't. Your friends may, but chances are, they are among the 90some % of Americans who believe in a "higher power" and likely some of them fall into the 40some % that actually believes Jesus is coming back in their lifetime. Anyone who contributes to public policy through voting, inspired by these "truths," affects us all, regardless of how likable they are personally.

 

Now try to creep your religious agenda in MY uterus or my kids' science books and then we will have a problem. Do whatever you want with your uterus. Heck, dress it up and buy it a Coldstone ice cream cone for all I care.

 

 

So you see why some of us have a problem?

[BrookValley.]

Heh. I agree that it's a huge chance for progress. And I was happy to see that some people were not going to fight it even though they didn't agree. That still made me angry, though. Not going to fight it? How big of you. And, I didn't think anyone should get a prize for being outwardly tolerant just to go with the majority while openly embracing intolerance within a smaller community (their church) and passing it on to their kids. That annoys me. It doesn't strike me as tolerant, it smells of harboring resentment towards the masses and digging in your heels behind the curtain.

 

 

I struggle with this a LOT. But the worst for me is family and aquaintances. I know some very lovely people (not being patronizing--truly good people that I sincerely love) who are Christian and say that they support LGBT rights, gay marriage, etc. But then they go to church every Sunday and give their money to a church that has poured so much money into fighting pro-equality legislation (such as prop 8 in CA). :confused1: What? How? Why? When confronted with this, they say that it's ok because their church also does so much good work (e.g., for the poor). Does not compute. That level of hypocrisy astounds me.

[Guest inoubliable]

Some of the threads here turn me into the "angry atheist", I'll admit. I admit to being completely intolerant of others' intolerance. We have rights in this country. They have the right to be bigoted or racist or sexist. And the rest of us have the right to challenge that (legally) and call them on it. Otherwise...I'm a peaceful atheist. Keep your religious intolerance to yourself and I'm cool with that. The minute you start legislating against a group of people, I take issue with that.

 

I appreciate the thought that the close-minded generation will eventually die off. I don't want to give up the fight waiting on that, though. :(

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I struggle with this a LOT. But the worst for me is family and aquaintances. I know some very lovely people (not being patronizing--truly good people that I sincerely love) who are Christian and say that they support LGBT rights, gay marriage, etc. But then they go to church every Sunday and give their money to a church that has poured so much money into fighting pro-equality legislation (such as prop 8 in CA). :confused1: What? How? Why? When confronted with this, they say that it's ok because their church also does so much good work (e.g., for the poor). Does not compute. That level of hypocrisy astounds me.

 

 

Yes. I struggle with it, too. I just cannot let the stink of bigotry and hate be washed away by soup kitchens and battered women shelters (especially when those receiving the help get healthy doses of rosaries, prayer cards, pamphlets, and free bibles along with their meal and bed).

[Jennifer3141]

In what way does pointing out bigotry and exposing hypocrisy "narrow ourselves to only those people who share our exact non-belief"? And in what capacity would that make one guilty? Guilty of what?

 

 

 

Because the moment you start a conversation with, "You bigot!" you lost the person you are conversing with. Tell me how many speeches of MLK started with, "Hey! You white %$#!%$#%#! Listen up!"

 

Start a conversation with me of with, "Hey, you white %$#!%$#!" and I'm pretty much blocking you out.

 

And as people interested (at least theoretically!!) in classical education, we can do better than that. I don't remember Sophocles or Buddha starting out any teachings by calling people names. There's a difference between conversing with someone and screaming and belittling them. How well does that work for teaching your children??

 

I wish religion fell off the planet yesterday. But it didn't. Screaming at the religious and not figuring out WHY some people have such a strong need to believe in a sky daddy who apparently spends a great deal of time watching some people touch themselves while ignoring giant swaths of starving children is important work for ALL of humaity to figure out. You are not going to be able to "cure" religion by marginalizing the religious. You are only going to make martyrs of them. And that is EXACTLY what people like that want.

[BrookValley.]

Some of the threads here turn me into the "angry atheist", I'll admit. I admit to being completely intolerant of others' intolerance. We have rights in this country. They have the right to be bigoted or racist or sexist. And the rest of us have the right to challenge that (legally) and call them on it. Otherwise...I'm a peaceful atheist. Keep your religious intolerance to yourself and I'm cool with that. The minute you start legislating against a group of people, I take issue with that.

 

I appreciate the thought that the close-minded generation will eventually die off. I don't want to give up the fight waiting on that, though. :(

 

 

That's pretty much exactly where I stand.

 

I'm tired of waiting on that generation to go away. When the pro-equality legislation in CA and ME lost a few years ago, I took off my wedding ring and got a big equal sign tatooed on my wrist instead. I said I wouldn't wear my rings again 'till everyone had the same 'ol legal rights that I do. I'm kinda tired of waiting to put my rings back on--I hate to think I won't see a reason to in my lifetime. (Though we DID make some good progress last election cycle! Woohoo!)

[Guest inoubliable]

Because the moment you start a conversation with, "You bigot!" you lost the person you are conversing with. Tell me how many speeches of MLK started with, "Hey! You white %$#!%$#%#! Listen up!"

 

Start a conversation with me of with, "Hey, you white %$#!%$#!" and I'm pretty much blocking you out.

 

And as people interested (at least theoretically!!) in classical education, we can do better than that. I don't remember Sophocles or Buddha starting out any teachings by calling people names. There's a difference between conversing with someone and screaming and belittling them. How well does that work for teaching your children??

 

I wish religion fell off the planet yesterday. But it didn't. Screaming at the religious and not figuring out WHY some people have such a strong need to believe in a sky daddy who apparently spends a great deal of time watching some people touch themselves while ignoring giant swaths of starving children is important work for ALL of humaity to figure out. You are not going to be able to "cure" religion by marginalizing the religious. You are only going to make martyrs of them. And that is EXACTLY what people like that want.

 

 

You're absolutely right. I wouldn't come right out with something like that, myself. Not at the outset anyway. LOL. Not my style and it doesn't really help my position. I think there are compelling and classy ways of pointing out hypocrisy and bigotry, though. In ways that make the other person think. Really, THINK about what they believe in or what they're saying or supporting.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I'm tired of waiting on that generation to go away. When the pro-equality legislation in CA and ME lost a few years ago, I took off my wedding ring and got a big equal sign tatooed on my wrist instead. I said I wouldn't wear my rings again 'till everyone had the same 'ol legal rights that I do. I'm kinda tired of waiting to put my rings back on--I hate to think I won't see a reason to in my lifetime. (Though we DID make some good progress last election cycle! Woohoo!)

 

Very nice! DH and I were going to do something similar. We've often said that we almost regret making our commitment legal since it's not an option for everyone. We do have the word Ubuntu tattooed, though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy) An interpreter that I worked with told me about it and we loved the idea of it since it's very close to how we are in this family and how we see ourselves as a part of the human race - "I am because we are". The children plan to have matching tattoos when they reach 18. Sort of our family philosophy.

 

We have a nice bumper sticker on the back of the van for the Human Rights Campaign. We've gotten a lot of discussions started in parking lots over that.

[albeto]

Because the moment you start a conversation with, "You bigot!" you lost the person you are conversing with. Tell me how many speeches of MLK started with, "Hey! You white %$#!%$#%#! Listen up!"

 

That's not what I read. I read "The dying cry of bigots," a general statement that applies to a general comment.

 

Start a conversation with me of with, "Hey, you white %$#!%$#!" and I'm pretty much blocking you out.

 

When people "read into" what they think someone says, or means to say, the communication has already broken down. There is no conceivable way to predict how each listener will react, and then choose words to appeal to the most sensitive in the audience. There simply is no way to completely prevent offense when offensive ideas are being exposed. The most people can do is speak carefully and make their words count. In a conversation like this where the audience is greater than the participants, words matter, ideas matter, emotional appeal may matter, but ultimately the argument should stand or fall on the merits of the information that supports it. Or at least it should, because one's civil rights aren't a matter of placating those who want to oppress by asking them nicely, pretty please, to reconsider.

 

And as people interested (at least theoretically!!) in classical education, we can do better than that. I don't remember Sophocles or Buddha starting out any teachings by calling people names. There's a difference between conversing with someone and screaming and belittling them. How well does that work for teaching your children??

 

Irrelevant, since CR made a general statement, identifying no individual in her comment.

 

I wish religion fell off the planet yesterday. But it didn't. Screaming at the religious and not figuring out WHY some people have such a strong need to believe in a sky daddy who apparently spends a great deal of time watching some people touch themselves while ignoring giant swaths of starving children is important work for ALL of humaity to figure out. You are not going to be able to "cure" religion by marginalizing the religious. You are only going to make martyrs of them. And that is EXACTLY what people like that want.

 

I don't see conversations like this as only marginalizing the religious. They do that themselves enough to discount any contribution I could make. I see conversations like this exposing hypocrisy, and bringing into the light those things people work very hard to deny. I see it as informative when facts come into play, because facts have nothing to gain or loose. They simply exist. Ignorance is what supports religion. Information is the antivirus. That some people react emotionally to information is lamentable, but expected, and one should hope the majority of participants can read the actual words on a page and not infer intent based on their own emotional responses to such ideas.

 

 

 

 

I realize this forum is a little touchy with certain subjects. If my post is considered crossing the line such that this thread is in jeopardy of being locked, please let me know and I will edit it accordingly. Otherwise, I don't know if this should be my last post on this particular subject or not.

[delaney]

Some of the threads here turn me into the "angry atheist", I'll admit. I admit to being completely intolerant of others' intolerance. We have rights in this country. They have the right to be bigoted or racist or sexist. And the rest of us have the right to challenge that (legally) and call them on it. Otherwise...I'm a peaceful atheist. Keep your religious intolerance to yourself and I'm cool with that. The minute you start legislating against a group of people, I take issue with that.

 

I appreciate the thought that the close-minded generation will eventually die off. I don't want to give up the fight waiting on that, though. :(

Yes it seems that it is acceptable to question when someone does NOT believe but don't you dare swim against the stream and question believers. That whole undertone really turns me off to the board in general and leaves me coming here less and less. I feel totally homeless when it comes to boards. :crying:

[Jennifer3141]

 

You're absolutely right. I wouldn't come right out with something like that, myself. Not at the outset anyway. LOL. Not my style and it doesn't really help my position. I think there are compelling and classy ways of pointing out hypocrisy and bigotry, though. In ways that make the other person think. Really, THINK about what they believe in or what they're saying or supporting.

 

See, I loved that thread. You saw some of the truly ignorant posting and did you notice how that just kind of rolls around and goes nowhere? Let that kind of stuff come out and let the people in the middle think, "Say what?" Just be a safe place for people who are otherwise confused.

 

I explained it this way to my kids: If you have a flood in the backyard, you cannot fix that with more water. If our barn burns, we don't set the house on fire. Hate doesn't kill hate. Love does. And love requires patience. And just showing up normal. Every time a gay person in this country gets married and just lives their normal life, it kills this prejudice so much more effectively than screaming, "Bigot!" on an internet message board.

 

You can't really fix people who hate. You just quietly stand there and point to them and nicely ask people if that's how they would feel about their son or daughter if they happened to be gay.

 

My gay best friend is the guardian of my children - over the objections of my family. Over the years, they have come to see why and they can't argue it. This doesn't mean I don't have an IRON CLAD will. But I stated it, left it out there to roll around and walked away from the fight. MLK had that down so well.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I realize this forum is a little touchy with certain subjects. If my post is considered crossing the line such that this thread is in jeopardy of being locked, please let me know and I will edit it accordingly. Otherwise, I don't know if this should be my last post on this particular subject or not.

 

Please don't edit. I think you're just fine.

 

I think it's important to note, though, that there are "peaceful atheists" who don't want to rock the boat and want to enjoy the progress being made and look forward to progression. And there are "angry atheists" who are the ones pointing out the unfairness, and willing to go on record, and don't mind being the squeaky wheel. Neither approach is wrong or right. There is diversity in atheism and humanism.

 

I think that if we can acknowledge that and the fact that CR is often a contentious member who is outspoken and can quickly get some folks riled up, then we can move on.

[Jennifer3141]

 

Oh see I think things have calmed down considerably since when I first started coming here.

 

Me too!! You should have been here 6 years ago!!! Whew. It was absolutely terrifying at times. It almost drove us right back to public school. :D

[Jennifer3141]

That's not what I read. I read "The dying cry of bigots," a general statement that applies to a general comment.

 

 

 

Irrelevant, since CR made a general statement, identifying no individual in her comment.

 

I realize this forum is a little touchy with certain subjects. If my post is considered crossing the line such that this thread is in jeopardy of being locked, please let me know and I will edit it accordingly. Otherwise, I don't know if this should be my last post on this particular subject or not.

 

 

Except that she just happened to be posting immediately after the most contentious person on the "other side." Nobody fell off the turnip truck on this forum (ok, a couple of people did but surprisingly, they didn't make it to that thread in time to post!) and everyone knew who CR was in a battle of wits with.

 

And so you're fighting with a group of bigots but instead of saying, "Mr. Smith, you're an ignorant bigot!" you just point to the whole group and say the same thing?? You think that makes it kinder somehow? (I'm imagining Jim Halpert from The Office cocking his head at that one.)

 

CR can drop a good truth bomb. But own it and the consequences of it. And CR didn't change anyone's mind last night. It was great fun to watch but it didn't cause anything positive to actually happen.

[albeto]

Please don't edit. I think you're just fine.

 

Okay, thanks.

 

I think it's important to note, though, that there are "peaceful atheists" who don't want to rock the boat and want to enjoy the progress being made and look forward to progression. And there are "angry atheists" who are the ones pointing out the unfairness, and willing to go on record, and don't mind being the squeaky wheel. Neither approach is wrong or right. There is diversity in atheism and humanism.

 

True dat. I can be as sweet as a spoonful of honey, but today I'm not interested in stroking the egos of someone who won't listen to reason, and requires flattery to consider applying the law appropriately.

 

I think that if we can acknowledge that and the fact that CR is often a contentious member who is outspoken and can quickly get some folks riled up, then we can move on.

 

Ah, I'm not familiar with CR, so I don't know the back story. I just went by the words written on the screen.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

 

 

Ah, I'm not familiar with CR, so I don't know the back story. I just went by the words written on the screen.

 

 

She's a peach and I lurve her to bits. Most folks here see her as too-blunt and only around when the thread is going to get heavy and uncool. She's got a special place in her heart for the BSA, too. You can imagine how she's received by most. She often speaks truth, but doesn't mince words and can be off-putting to the very people she's trying to reach.

[Ipsey]

You're absolutely right. I wouldn't come right out with something like that, myself. Not at the outset anyway. LOL. Not my style and it doesn't really help my position. I think there are compelling and classy ways of pointing out hypocrisy and bigotry, though. In ways that make the other person think. Really, THINK about what they believe in or what they're saying or supporting.

 

 

This was partially what happened in my case. I was on a board, perhaps 10 years ago, as a super fundie, and we were talking about equal rights for gays, and I was explaining how I was against them--for the same reasons even well-meaning Christian types are today, particularly the ones trying to be open-minded. Arguing that I thought gays should have civil unions but not marriage, etc. because marriage was a "Christian" value. . . (*headdesk*)

 

While noone called me a "bigot" directly I did realize that word applied to me. I spent a long time struggling with that, eventually trying to accept the fact that religious bigotry--based solely on religious views mandated by God was ok. Not to the "world" but to "God." I had to accept the fact that I was, in fact, a bigot. I didn't like the word, I hated it, and accepted it (grudgingly) into my opinion of myself.

 

I was so glad when I didn't _have_ to be a bigot anymore :)

 

I felt obligated by my god to view certain people in certain ways.

 

That was about the time I realized that my boyfriend from high school was gay (or, accepted it, at any rate). I wound up tracking him down. He and his partner both, and they came and visited overnight on a cross-country trip. We have gay neighbors we like very much. And I no longer am obliged to think their love is sinful, or that they are ill or willfully wicked. I am SO GLAD!

 

For myself, I'm glad that I realized that my beliefs were bigoted.

 

I'm more glad that my beliefs were false, though. :)

 

I don't know how I would have responded had someone just called me a bigot though.

[albeto]

Except that she just happened to be posting immediately after the most contentious person on the "other side." Nobody fell off the turnip truck on this forum (ok, a couple of people did but surprisingly, they didn't make it to that thread in time to post!) and everyone knew who CR was in a battle of wits with.

 

Okay, my bad. I don't know the players here, I don't know who is considered contentious and who isn't. I was just responding to the post itself. So, I guess I'm the one who fell off the turnip truck! ;)

 

CR can drop a good truth bomb. But own it and the consequences of it. And CR didn't change anyone's mind last night. It was great fun to watch but it didn't cause anything positive to actually happen.

 

 

Oh, I don't know. One of the things that helped me see past the claims of religion was simply being embarrassed to be associated with what, I would eventually find out, the religion actually supports. One should be embarrassed to be a bigot, imo. There's nothing noble or valuable about it. If a reader here is embarrassed to support bigoted policy, embarrassed to be a part of a bigoted community, she will likely struggle with that conflict. Ideally, she'll disregard what she will discover is an outdated and clearly erroneous belief (homophobia), one that is increasingly embarrassing to hold in high esteem today. Instead, she may decide to hang on to that which she can feel good about. As classical home educators, I imagine people look to the details of any given argument to see if they have merit. Those who are emotionally driven only will not be persuaded by reasonable arguments anyway. These discussions will be discerned by those who are interested in looking at the details, even if they never speak up in the thread.

[Ipsey]

See that is interesting to me. Not all religious people are bigots. Not all Christians take the Bible literally. And many Christians in my life rejected (reject) a great deal of what was taught to them and were just fine with that and felt no need to reconcile those thoughts at all. How did/do they explain the discrepancies? I guess they think that some parts of what we are told about "god" is made up by people, but not god.

 

I no longer believe in the concept of god (as creator, etc.) because I simply have never had any reason to believe it is true. It does nothing for me. But when I did believe there was such a thing, I still knew some of what I was told was not correct. If that makes me bold...whatever. But surely there are many religious people who don't buy into all of it and believe wholeheartedly in a god.

 

 

Oh, no, I'm not saying all religious people are bigoted. But I was. I didn't want to be. I really didn't think that gay people were any different from me, but I felt obliged to "spiritually" fight against their equality--though, again, I didn't want to. As a Bible believer, I didn't feel I had a choice. Sometimes, doing the hard thing was proof that it was the right thing.

 

Believing, and following through on my faith, was a duty. One I loved in many ways, but one that was eating me from the inside out in others.

 

I do wonder how many religious people have toe the bigot line, even though their heart is not in it. Even though they know their position is bigoted. I bet it hurts them like it hurt me. However, there are only so many options at that point. And abandonning the faith just isn't one of the options for most people.

 

But, as I have said to other friends, "it's important to remember that we have a special word for the type of bigotry that's based on personal and deeply held religious beliefs. 'Bigotry.'"

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Interestingly some of the ugliest hearted people I have met were supposedly very religious. This makes no sense to me. It is such an insane contradiction. They will even tell you they can't walk straight without it. But not only do they not walk straight with it, it seems to make them uglier. Hopefully I'm making sense.

 

 

At the risk of dropping something political in here, your post reminded me of this -

 

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfiny9rFA11qat9xfo1_500.jpg

 

People getting very venomous at election time over Obama's skin color, welfare, taxes, war, healthcare, etc. And justified their positions by quoting their priest or pastor. At least, that was happening in my neck of the woods. Bizarre.

[Rosie_0801]

I think it's important to note, though, that there are "peaceful atheists" who don't want to rock the boat and want to enjoy the progress being made and look forward to progression. And there are "angry atheists" who are the ones pointing out the unfairness, and willing to go on record, and don't mind being the squeaky wheel. Neither approach is wrong or right.

 

 

That's a matter of opinion.

[HomeschoolMamaOfTwo]

Every time I go to this chat forum, this post is right at the top. :thumbup:

[Guest inoubliable]

 

That's a matter of opinion.

 

 

I was coming from an angle of different personality types and people's comfort level with being direct and outspoken.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I can see that. I'm pretty opinionated, but I'm also very introverted. I'm not the type to attend a protest. I might write a letter if I'm upset and that's as radical as I get. KWIM?

 

 

Yeah. I know a few like that. It's all good.