SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[Guest inoubliable]

Edited to keep this on track.

[Guest inoubliable]

Have any of you found a good, neutral-ish book of Bible stories? My daughter LOVES her Daulaire myth books, and while reading a Greek myth of the flood tonight I said, "wow, does this remind you of anything?" and she said, "no, what?" and it dawned on me that perhaps I have skipped some 'cultural knowledge'-type Bible stories. Oh. We have a couple bibles around here somewhere, but I would prefer something that presents your typical Bible stories rather like the Daulaire books present Greek and Norse myths, iykwim.

 

I haven't read through this entire thread here: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/153220-books-about-christian-mythology-for-non-christians but the OP edited to add some recommendations. We have an illustrated Bible here (I can't think of the name of it) that we used last year while going over the Ancients and a general study of religion and mythology.

[Marylou]

On my way to bed, so I'm not sure if I want to click on your link; what is it? A pic, an article?

[Free]

Since the topic of abortion/equality for women (and also Christianity) have come up several times on this thread, I'm wondering if anyone wants to give his opinion on this article written by a Christian? If not, that's fine.

 

I guess my question would be: when people talk about equal rights for women (regarding reproduction), is it like this: "Women should be no more encumbered by the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy than men"? I would like to hear what non-Christians have to say about it.

 

There are multiple lines of thought. There are people who do not believe that a fetus is a person legally or ethically. My personal views are that the person hood of the fetus is irrelevant. No person can claim rights on another's body whether that person be a fetus, a child or an adult. This said I would definitely not want to convert this into a debate thread.

[albeto]

Since the topic of abortion/equality for women (and also Christianity) have come up several times on this thread, I'm wondering if anyone wants to give his opinion on this article written by a Christian? If not, that's fine.

 

I guess my question would be: when people talk about equal rights for women (regarding reproduction), is it like this: "Women should be no more encumbered by the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy than men"? I would like to hear what non-Christians have to say about it.

 

Lots of thoughts, but...

This said I would definitely not want to convert this into a debate thread.

 

There's value in keeping this thread from taking that direction, in my opinion. That said, if a thread opened up to discuss that question, I would share my thoughts there.

 

:)

[Rosie_0801]

I guess my question would be: when people talk about equal rights for women (regarding reproduction), is it like this: "Women should be no more encumbered by the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy than men"? I would like to hear what non-Christians have to say about it.

 

I think the bolded is biologically impossible, so badus luckus, to use the original Latin (:p)

 

I am pro-choice, which does not mean pro-abortion, of course. I believe that people who have been born have rights that unborn people don't because I see that as the most practical option.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

I am lurking here and really enjoying hearing what some of you have to say, especially former believers who have left the church. For whoever posted earlier about Christians NOT reading this thread because there is nothing here to interest them, I think you are mistaken. If this turns into an ab*rtion debate, they will arrive in droves. I am not quite ready to "out" myself as I am in a part of the country that is highly religious and political (the two are almost synonyms), and where you risk complete ostracism for anything other than evangelical Christianity. KK (or whoever is leading the thread), can you steer it away from the political hot buttons?

[Guest inoubliable]

I am lurking here and really enjoying hearing what some of you have to say, especially former believers who have left the church. For whoever posted earlier about Christians NOT reading this thread because there is nothing here to interest them, I think you are mistaken. If this turns into an ab*rtion debate, they will arrive in droves. I am not quite ready to "out" myself as I am in a part of the country that is highly religious and political (the two are almost synonyms), and where you risk complete ostracism for anything other than evangelical Christianity. KK (or whoever is leading the thread), can you steer it away from the political hot buttons?

 

 

The bolded is why I think we (as a group on this thread) should probably not respond any further on that topic. I think the asker knew it was a loaded question, to be honest. Asking a question about equal rights (which I see as more a political issue than a religious one) from a "non-Christian" perspective? Please. There are liberal and conservative non-Christians. This will only end up as a political debate if it goes any further and could get this thread shut down. Not sure if deliberately trolling or just ignorant of the difference between abortion stances and lack of religious beliefs.

 

I'm asking that we stay away from it. The asker is going to have to go somewhere else and discuss this issue in a more appropriate forum.

[Guest inoubliable]

Anyone else see this today?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/01/26/atlanta-city-council-issues-proclamation-in-honor-of-charles-darwin

 

Way to go, Atlanta!!

[Izzy]

Anyone else see this today?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/01/26/atlanta-city-council-issues-proclamation-in-honor-of-charles-darwin

 

Way to go, Atlanta!!

 

:party:

 

On a side note, I was searching the forums yesterday for quantum physics and found some really heated threads about creationism versus science. I don't get it. Science is science. It's not up for debate.

[Izzy]

There are Athiest pro-life groups. I just wanted to debunk whatever theories PP was going for.

[Jennifer3141]

I don't really CARE what Xtians think about abortion frankly. If someone wants to start a thread for that go for it. I don't expect to perform on demand for anyone else's morality path and if anyone has questions like that, post them yourself in another thread. I will say I'm not exactly shocked by the lack of respect. But that's ok. I'll just add this to my pile of eyeroll Xtianisms.

[Izzy]

I don't really CARE what Xtians think about abortion frankly. If someone wants to start a thread for that go for it. I don't expect to perform on demand for anyone else's morality path and if anyone has questions like that, post them yourself in another thread. I will say I'm not exactly shocked by the lack of respect. But that's ok. I'll just add this to my pile of eyeroll Xtianisms.

 

 

Conversion FAIL. lol

[LucyStoner]

We are using SOTW at this level as well, and we treated Christianity just like all the other religions we don't believe in. We didn't skip anything that I remember. I remember hesitating at first, but "some people believe" are the go to words around here, too. :)

 

We used SOTW and emphasized the importance of knowing about the religions that have shaped our history in terms of politics, geography and paradigm. In our country and the countries that our ancestors came from, the main religious influence has been the Christian faith in some flavor or another. I used it as a jumping off point to explain the religion that has shaped our family- I come from a very religious background and I think it is helpful for him to understand his relatives and the beliefs others have. My son was an insta-non-thiest, declaring at age 3 that what I explained about Christian beliefs "could not possibly be true" so I didn't worry about him taking myth as fact. I have considered having him read more of the bible when he is older for the literary and cultural references that are connected to all different parts of our culture, even outside of religious life.

[Jennifer3141]

Conversion FAIL. lol

 

 

Dagnabit it. You really think so? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[LucyStoner]

There are Athiest pro-life groups. I just wanted to debunk whatever theories PP was going for.

 

Yes, this is not merely a religious issue. I know many people who are atheists or agnostics who are not ok with abortion. What distinguishes them from most of the religious pro-lifers that I know is that they are far more likely to see their view of it as theirs, applying only to them, and not want to legislate it for others.

[dbmamaz]

On a side note, I was searching the forums yesterday for quantum physics and found some really heated threads about creationism versus science. I don't get it. Science is science. It's not up for debate.

My daughter met a kid in college who seemed like a nice guy. then they got in to a discussion where he admitted he didnt believe in evolution. she said, ok, she could deal with that. Then he said he didnt believe in science. thats when she ended the friendship. he said she was being close-minded.

[LucyStoner]

My daughter met a kid in college who seemed like a nice guy. then they got in to a discussion where he admitted he didnt believe in evolution. she said, ok, she could deal with that. Then he said he didnt believe in science. thats when she ended the friendship. he said she was being close-minded.

 

The fiance of one of my friends doesn't believe in evolution. He's not especially religious either and is not a young earth creationist. I am not sure what he believes in but it through me for a big loop in the middle of a dinner conversation. :blink: Thankfully he is not anti-science and is a really nice guy. Otherwise I would be wondering about her judgment. She's a scientist. :p

[dbmamaz]

my husband says he isnt convinced of evolution, but he also says he hasnt read much about it because its not of interest to him. i tend to ignore him and talk about it as a fact . . . and no, he is NOT willing to learn more

[Rosie_0801]

Evolution is the change within a species over generations. I think a person must have to try really hard not to believe in that. Most of us catch the common cold twice a year.

[dbmamaz]

i actually have a friend who has said that she does believe that bacteria evolve, but not that humans evolved - god made people just as they are. but seriously, there are LOTS of people on this board who dont believe in evolution. LOTS.

[Maela]

Late to the party...but so happy this thread was started. Thank you! I am one of the few atheist homeschoolers in my small, conservative CA town. It's pretty lonely.

We are in the central valley. I'll assume that's where you are? I'm near Modesto. It's very lonely sometimes. And I'm worried about my kids having friends (especially homeschooling ones). I want them to have some homeschooling friends, but I'm also nervous about the first time the parent asks me, "So what church do you go to?" We do belong to a UU church, so that helps a little. But I feel like I'm hiding something if I don't let them know it's not exactly a Christian church.

[Audrey]

I don't really CARE what Xtians think

 

 

I would have just put the period right there.

 

So much of that crap gets really old, really fast. Talk to me about life, but those Scriptures? They're irrelevant. The world was turning just fine before those came along. It'll keep turning just fine when they're long forgotten dust. It's not that I don't like have conversations with Christians, but they lose me when it starts veering toward or revolving around the god/bible stuff. I already know that book very well. That's 99.9 % of the reason I don't buy it.

[LucyStoner]

Evolution is the change within a species over generations. I think a person must have to try really hard not to believe in that. Most of us catch the common cold twice a year.

 

 

Well, for some it's "Head! Meet sand!" I don't get it at all- the ones that deny it all and also those folks who acknowledge "mircoevolution" while denying "macroevolution". That's "Head! Meet wall!" for me.

[Rosie_0801]

I understand the pov when it comes from a literal Bible creationist type, but from people who aren't? :confused1:

 

But anyway, I'm enjoying my Genetics and Evolution class through Coursera. We're starting week 4, so there's still time to join in and catch up! ;)

[Cafdog]

We are in the central valley. I'll assume that's where you are? I'm near Modesto. It's very lonely sometimes. And I'm worried about my kids having friends (especially homeschooling ones). I want them to have some homeschooling friends, but I'm also nervous about the first time the parent asks me, "So what church do you go to?" We do belong to a UU church, so that helps a little. But I feel like I'm hiding something if I don't let them know it's not exactly a Christian church.

 

 

Yep - Central Valley here. I moved here from Seattle many years ago. Serious culture shock! LOL

 

Our local homeschool group is inclusive, but pretty chock-full of fundamentalists. Nice enough people, but I kind of freak them out. And vice-versa.

[Jennifer3141]

I don't get the anti-science thing. I seriously don't. I get it from Amish-type people, somewhat. If you want to give up electricity and use candles from your own beeswax, go for it. We can intersect societally because I also believe in treading lightly upon our planet.

 

But when the anti-science people are on their iphones, driving around in their computerized cars, and go to the hospital for gene therapy on their cancer kid, I just want to laugh. What the heck? It's like they think there's a technology garden and god just randomly drops stuff like antibiotics and Roku players. Meh. I guess if god can drop manna (which tastes like carp, by the way), he could theoretically drop iphones too. Kinda weird that he doens't though, isn't it???

[Clarkd]

My partner was raised catholic. My mom was paegan, my grandparents (who were very involved in my upbringing) were catholic and russian orthodox. I tried to be catholic during college, but that whole coming out lesbian thing got in the way ;-)

My partner and I live in the rural midwest. There are no local hs groups that are secular. One of the groups "allows" us to follow their fb page and we get a lot of good info about community events, but mostly we are not welcome. The local 4h and scouts are also highly christian. Adoption and post adoption groups in the area, again, highly christian. One of those groups "allows" me to follow on fb. There are a couple secular families who hs where I work, but their kids are much older. It is fairly isolating. This board and the "other" board that another post mentioned are huge supports for us. A multi ethnic, secular family with two moms and four adopted kids who have some needs, yeah, not the beacon for social invitations. On the other hand, we have a great life and a great time hs ing. I wouldn't have that any other way. Thanks for starting this thread!

[Jennifer3141]

You are welcome here, Clarkd!

[Izzy]

 

My daughter met a kid in college who seemed like a nice guy. then they got in to a discussion where he admitted he didnt believe in evolution. she said, ok, she could deal with that. Then he said he didnt believe in science. thats when she ended the friendship. he said she was being close-minded.

 

How does one not believe in science?? Although denying evolution IS denying science so why not take it a step further and deny the whole blasted subject?!

[Izzy]

i actually have a friend who has said that she does believe that bacteria evolve, but not that humans evolved - god made people just as they are. but seriously, there are LOTS of people on this board who dont believe in evolution. LOTS.

 

I've heard arguments saying since we've never actually seen a species evolve in our lifetime then evolution never happened. They don't get that a species doesn't evolve in one lifetime. At least visibly enough to notice.

[Marylou]

Sorry, I can only write on the forums after supper, so there are always huge gaps between posts.

 

I can understand why no one would want to talk about abortion. No problem. I used to think that those who had no qualms about aborting the preborn held that position because they didn’t think those children were humans. But now with all the advances in science and technology and the proof that the preborn have feelings and are, in fact, just mini-version of ourselves, I was intrigued when I read that article and considered why there is still so much support for it. Since I believe people of all faiths (and none) have a moral compass, I was interested in your thoughts, too. [i only mentioned that the author is Christian so that anyone who wanted to avoid the article on that basis could do just that w/o opening it].

 

You're all safe; I don't see the droves of prolifers swooping in to cause havoc :driving: Carry on.

[Izzy]

My partner was raised catholic. My mom was paegan, my grandparents (who were very involved in my upbringing) were catholic and russian orthodox. I tried to be catholic during college, but that whole coming out lesbian thing got in the way ;-)

My partner and I live in the rural midwest. There are no local hs groups that are secular. One of the groups "allows" us to follow their fb page and we get a lot of good info about community events, but mostly we are not welcome. The local 4h and scouts are also highly christian. Adoption and post adoption groups in the area, again, highly christian. One of those groups "allows" me to follow on fb. There are a couple secular families who hs where I work, but their kids are much older. It is fairly isolating. This board and the "other" board that another post mentioned are huge supports for us. A multi ethnic, secular family with two moms and four adopted kids who have some needs, yeah, not the beacon for social invitations. On the other hand, we have a great life and a great time hs ing. I wouldn't have that any other way. Thanks for starting this thread!

 

 

This makes me so sad and angry at the same time. There's just no excuse for a human to treat a fellow human that way. They wonder why some athiests are angry?

[Jennifer3141]

Sorry, I can only write on the forums after supper, so there are always huge gaps between posts.

 

I can understand why no one would want to talk about abortion. No problem. I used to think that those who had no qualms about aborting the preborn held that position because they didn’t think those children were humans. But now with all the advances in science and technology and the proof that the preborn have feelings and are, in fact, just mini-version of ourselves, I was intrigued when I read that article and considered why there is still so much support for it. Since I believe people of all faiths (and none) have a moral compass, I was interested in your thoughts, too. [i only mentioned that the author is Christian so that anyone who wanted to avoid the article on that basis could do just that w/o opening it].

 

You're all safe; I don't see the droves of prolifers swooping in to cause havoc :driving: Carry on.

 

 

 

Oh, I'm open to discussing abortion. But I discuss it with intelligent people.

[Izzy]

But anyway, I'm enjoying my Genetics and Evolution class through Coursera. We're starting week 4, so there's still time to join in and catch up! ;)

 

 

Very cool! I just took a look at the Coursera website and saw the classes are free. How did I not know about this? :D

[Audrey]

I'm not entirely following you here, but I don't know too many people who have "no qualms about aborting the preborn". I'm not saying there is nobody out there who thinks like that, but being pro choice does not mean one is pro abortion.

 

 

Psst... Wendy. If you're out, I can lend you some

 

because... you know...

 

[dbmamaz]

yup. not going there, not here, not with that lead-in.

[Guest inoubliable]

LOL. Y'all had to know we'd get one eventually. ;)

[Jennifer3141]

LOL. Y'all had to know we'd get one eventually. ;)

 

 

I suppose. But good grief, did it have to be such an obvious one?!?!

[Guest inoubliable]

http://www.indiegogo.com/InterviewAtheists

 

Anyone interested? "Interview an Atheist at Church Day is a community project aimed at bettering the understanding between atheists and religious persons."

I have to admit that I am not quite sure what this is supposed to accomplish. Maybe I'm being cynical but I see this as church-goers going full on conversion tactics while an atheist goes on the defensive and hopes they don't get death threats afterwards. Or maybe it's because I live in the South...

 

Thoughts? Have you ever had a fruitful, meaningful, respectful conversation with a believer about why you don't believe?

[Clarkd]

Thanks for the support Izzy. After awhile I just move on and find the places where the support can be found, like here.

:-)

[Guest inoubliable]

Thanks for the support Izzy. After awhile I just move on and find the places where the support can be found, like here.

:-)

 

 

Too bad you're not in VA! I'd absolutely hang out with you. :) Glad you found us here.

[Izzy]

Ha!

[Izzy]

http://www.indiegogo.com/InterviewAtheists

 

Anyone interested? "Interview an Atheist at Church Day is a community project aimed at bettering the understanding between atheists and religious persons."

I have to admit that I am not quite sure what this is supposed to accomplish. Maybe I'm being cynical but I see this as church-goers going full on conversion tactics while an atheist goes on the defensive and hopes they don't get death threats afterwards. Or maybe it's because I live in the South...

 

Thoughts? Have you ever had a fruitful, meaningful, respectful conversation with a believer about why you don't believe?

 

 

IDK. I can see churches training the interviewers in apologetics so they can convert the athiests, kind of like a ministry.

[albeto]

Sorry, I can only write on the forums after supper, so there are always huge gaps between posts.

 

I can understand why no one would want to talk about abortion. No problem. I used to think that those who had no qualms about aborting the preborn held that position because they didn’t think those children were humans. But now with all the advances in science and technology and the proof that the preborn have feelings and are, in fact, just mini-version of ourselves, I was intrigued when I read that article and considered why there is still so much support for it. Since I believe people of all faiths (and none) have a moral compass, I was interested in your thoughts, too. [i only mentioned that the author is Christian so that anyone who wanted to avoid the article on that basis could do just that w/o opening it].

 

You're all safe; I don't see the droves of prolifers swooping in to cause havoc :driving: Carry on.

 

 

I won't be a part of derailing this thread, but I have strong opinions on the matter, including the idea that people didn't think fetuses were humans. I'm dying to know what this means, but not on this thread.

[Guest inoubliable]

Ha!

 

That guy is a dead-ringer for a college roommate of mine...

[Guest inoubliable]

IDK. I can see churches training the interviewers in apologetics so they can convert the athiests, kind of like a ministry.

 

That's sort of what I was thinking. Thinking of all the "angry atheists" that I know, too, I wonder how many would be able to have a conversation without losing their cool.

[albeto]

Thoughts? Have you ever had a fruitful, meaningful, respectful conversation with a believer about why you don't believe?

Yes, I have. I have one friend who has moved from fundamentalism all the way to a deist-hanging-on-to-faith kind of belief. She's been incredibly awesome with not taking my words as personal jabs just because a particular idea might sting. I never mean them that way, but most people I converse with in any seriousness do seem to end up feeling personally attacked. It doesn't surprise me because it can be really tough to hear criticism about things you hold dearly, it can also create emotional conflict to be confronted with those things you deny. That's not limited to theists, of course, but in these conversations it seems to apply in that direction, which means most conversations are not ultimately fruitful, meaningful or respectful. But they can be.

[radiobrain]

JUst wanted to pop in and say hello, lest some of you forget that I exist or don't belong here. :D

 

Too much to read, going to sleep.

[Guest inoubliable]

Good seeing you!