SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[Izzy]

 

See, that just supports my agnostic tendency, though "equiprobable" is a problematic term for me since I'm not sure how one would compile a probability statistic. And I'm unclear as to whether this would include a superior power that is not personified... So the very question of how to approach the question falls into the "unquantifiable, can't go forward" box for me.

 

I am impartial. The existence or non-existence doesn't factor into my ethics, conduct or thought - other than when it is a topic of discussion, obviously - at all.

 

 

That chart puts me leaning towards theist but that's not how I'd define myself. My beliefs are still evolving since I'm such a new de-convert but I don't think god is knowable or interacts with us. Maybe if there is a god this god spun everything in action and that's it? And this god may not be a god in the same way we think of gods. Just a higher power. IDK but I don't feel the need to know. It makes my head hurt just thinking about it. :p I also believe we can tap into ourselves on a much deeper level like meditation. Maybe that will be scientifically proven someday? I guess I'm sort of an Athiest/Agnostic mutt. lol

[Izzy]

 

 

Religion barely shows up in UK politics. When Tony Blair - protestant later converted RC - was in power, his press secretary famously parried questions about religion with the phrase 'We don't do God.' The casual calling on a god that US politicians go in for would be considered.... overly intimate? Religion in the UK is normally a private matter, and it seems pushy when politicians bring it up.

 

Laura

 

Americans could learn a few things from Canadians. Politics are a mess here and religion is such a big reason why.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that the most peaceful countries are the most Athiest and the most violent ones are the most religious.

[Izzy]

 

saw a quote on fb yesterday - a guy said that when he tells people he doesnt believe in god, they ask him what keeps him from raping and murdering. He said that he rapes and murders exactly as much as he wants to - which is not at all.

 

Its weird that people think belief in a diety is the only thing that keeps them from doing awful things, and then when believers DO awful things, they just say, oh, we are humans and we arent perfect but god will forgive us. Um, but that whole belief thing didnt STOP you from doing anything bad, then, it just makes you feel better about it?

 

I saw that quote too. Even as a Christian I never understood the reasoning behind people believing athiests were immoral. It amazes me that people truly believe this and honestly don't get why it offends people. Really??

[Guest inoubliable]

I'ma post this here because I'm hoping it's a safe place to do so.

 

I cannot see how anyone can think it's healthy to define their place in this world and their role in relationships based on a collection of stories written in a civilization and society 2000+ years ago.

 

*sigh*

[Guest inoubliable]

I saw that quote too. Even as a Christian I never understood the reasoning behind people believing athiests were immoral. It amazes me that people truly believe this and honestly don't get why it offends people. Really??

 

Turn that quote around on them. I've done it. People telling me that I couldn't possibly know right from wrong unless I knew Jesus or had studied the Bible.

 

"Quite honestly, if the only thing keeping you from raping and murdering is a collection of fables and myths then I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with your reality."

[Guest inoubliable]

 

This is probably not a safe place, but what the heck....along these lines I wonder how so many people can believe it. And I wonder why I don't. What is different about my brain (and your brain, and the brain of those like us)? KWIM?

 

I don't know. :( I know that it makes me sad and angry at the same time. And glad that I have no daughters. As it is, I have three sons that I am committed to raising and making sure that they see that PEOPLE should be equal regarding human rights, and that strengths and weaknesses in ANY relationship should be acknowledged and taken into consideration when figuring out their roles in relationships of any kind.

 

In my own marriage, I take care of all the finances. Because I'm better at the math, I had the experience of living on my own before DH did (and with a kid!), and because I have no problems with calling up and cancelling, setting up services, getting refunds, requesting better service, etc. DH was happy to have me take over from day one. Does that mean that I'm the "head of the household"?? *snort* There is no head here. It's knights of the round table here, baby! Everyone equal, no one is at the head of anything.

 

How does anyone think it's sane or wise to figure out their place in the world based on a book?? Wouldn't the best gift to give of yourself and to your children be the one where you identify and encourage and celebrate your strengths? Ack.

[4kidlets4me]

I think most people take comfort in believing there is a plan, a reason bad things happen to good people etc.

[4kidlets4me]

 

 

I don't know. :( I know that it makes me sad and angry at the same time. And glad that I have no daughters. As it is, I have three sons that I am committed to raising and making sure that they see that PEOPLE should be equal regarding human rights, and that strengths and weaknesses in ANY relationship should be acknowledged and taken into consideration when figuring out their roles in relationships of any kind.

 

In my own marriage, I take care of all the finances. Because I'm better at the math, I had the experience of living on my own before DH did (and with a kid!), and because I have no problems with calling up and cancelling, setting up services, getting refunds, requesting better service, etc. DH was happy to have me take over from day one. Does that mean that I'm the "head of the household"?? *snort* There is no head here. It's knights of the round table here, baby! Everyone equal, no one is at the head of anything.

 

How does anyone think it's sane or wise to figure out their place in the world based on a book?? Wouldn't the best gift to give of yourself and to your children be the one where you identify and encourage and celebrate your strengths? Ack.

 

What did you mean by glad you don't have daughters?

[dbmamaz]

I think most people take comfort in believing there is a plan, a reason bad things happen to good people etc.

But i hope that most rational people know its just a comforting fable - even if it is comfortable to them in the moment, that doesnt make it reality

[Izzy]

I used to think I was THE world's worst Christian because I couldn't bring myself to submit to DH, use Christian curriculum, look for my life answers in the bible, or even teach my kids the bible. My oldest is 13 and doesn't even know about hell except for what he's heard elsewhere. We even stopped going to church after we had kids. All of this time I thought I was being bad but really I was just listening to my gut instincts. Now I'm just thankful I listened those red flags even though I considered myself a Christian. They didn't experience the brainwashing I did. I'm amazed at how ironic it all is. The whole time I thought I was being immoral I was actually doing the right thing by listening to myself!

 

I love the threads about one person trying to interpret the bible to make some life decision. Really? We have more than enough reason and instinct to lead our lives.

[Guest inoubliable]

What did you mean by glad you don't have daughters?

 

 

I think it would be hard for me (this is my personal opinion, you see) to encourage a daughter of mine to seek equality and own her sex in our political climate. (This is all without saying too much. I honestly think it's already a little risky on this forum just having this thread active.) Given that our politics in this country can be and are heavily influenced by certain religious groups, I mean.

 

It's hard to say outright, kwim?

 

I'll say that I teach my boys to be responsible. I teach them that they're EQUAL in that responsibility. I teach them that a woman's body is her own, and her decisions are her own. See where I'm going?

[Izzy]

I think most people take comfort in believing there is a plan, a reason bad things happen to good people etc.

 

That was one of the toughest issues for me as a Christian. Bad things happened to people because of original sin and God's will. But if you get enough people praying you can change God's will. I'm so much more comforted just knowing bad things just happen because that's life. I also had a problem with a plan that meant 1/5 of the world's population was spending an eternity in hell. Maybe I'm different but that never comforted me. I remember telling my mom I didn't want to go to heaven because it meant so many were going to hell. It depressed me.

[Guest inoubliable]

That was one of the toughest issues for me as a Christian. Bad things happened to people because of original sin and God's will.

 

That part of Christian teaching never made sense to me. An entire continent of people are starving because someone ate an apple that they weren't supposed to?? It has nothing to do with over-farming, shifts in ecology and climate, and overpopulation? Good grief. The detentions I used to get in Catholic school because I *dared* to ask these questions...

[Izzy]

 

 

 

I think it would be hard for me (this is my personal opinion, you see) to encourage a daughter of mine to seek equality and own her sex in our political climate. (This is all without saying too much. I honestly think it's already a little risky on this forum just having this thread active.) Given that our politics in this country can be and are heavily influenced by certain religious groups, I mean.

 

It's hard to say outright, kwim?

 

I'll say that I teach my boys to be responsible. I teach them that they're EQUAL in that responsibility. I teach them that a woman's body is her own, and her decisions are her own. See where I'm going?

 

You know, I don't think it's risky having this group. I don't think a Christian would be tempted to open this thread. I could be wrong though.

 

I don't have girls (4 boys) but I can see how it would be hard to raise a girl in the current homeschooling climate. I might be naive but aren't women otherwise pretty equal these days? I'm asking that as a genuine question as I really don't know the answer for sure. I'm not being snarky. :D

[Guest inoubliable]

You know, I don't think it's risky having this group. I don't think a Christian would be tempted to open this thread. I could be wrong though.

 

I don't have girls (4 boys) but I can see how it would be hard to raise a girl in the current homeschooling climate. I might be naive but aren't women otherwise pretty equal these days? I'm asking that as a genuine question as I really don't know the answer for sure. I'm not being snarky. :D

 

One never knows... LOL.

 

I'd like to think that women are pretty equal these days, except for a) when I run across religious people trying to justify what amounts to abuse and/or oppression because their holy book said it's the way it should go down, B) abortion, though many years legal, is still debatable today, and c) I still hear people say that even though Hillary made a fantastic Secretary of State, they won't vote her as President because a woman can't do that job. Yep. I've heard that last one said quite a few times while out in public the last couple of weeks. I think in some areas of the country, in some professions, in some circles it's trendy to make certain that women be equal. I think that some people genuinely get it. Whatever the reason, the entire country clearly isn't all on the same page.

[Izzy]

 

 

That part of Christian teaching never made sense to me. An entire continent of people are starving because someone ate an apple that they weren't supposed to?? It has nothing to do with over-farming, shifts in ecology and climate, and overpopulation? Good grief. The detentions I used to get in Catholic school because I *dared* to ask these questions...

 

It's kind of a lazy way out too. God is more powerful than those issues so why try to make a difference? God will take care of it. It's our job to have as many kids as possible and god will worry about the environmental issues...that sort of thought process. Truth is, if we were all to put more faith into ourselves we could change the world for the better. We have the power in us. Pretty cool if you think about it.

[Izzy]

 

 

One never knows... LOL.

 

I'd like to think that women are pretty equal these days, except for a) when I run across religious people trying to justify what amounts to abuse and/or oppression because their holy book said it's the way it should go down, B) abortion, though many years legal, is still debatable today, and c) I still hear people say that even though Hillary made a fantastic Secretary of State, they won't vote her as President because a woman can't do that job. Yep. I've heard that last one said quite a few times while out in public the last couple of weeks. I think in some areas of the country, in some professions, in some circles it's trendy to make certain that women be equal. I think that some people genuinely get it. Whatever the reason, the entire country clearly isn't all on the same page.

 

Yeah, I meant outside of the religious circles. Could it be that the same people who wouldn't vote for Hillary because she's a women are religious so wouldn't vote for her regardless?

[Guest inoubliable]

It's kind of a lazy way out too. God is more powerful than those issues so why try to make a difference? God will take care of it. It's our job to have as many kids as possible and god will worry about the environmental issues...that sort of thought process. Truth is, if we were all to put more faith into ourselves we could change the world for the better. We have the power in us. Pretty cool if you think about it.

 

Kinda like the whole "I'll pray for you" sentiment. *sigh* I seem harsh today! What I mean is that, while I appreciate someone's thinking of me and my situation or anyone's situation, really, a prayer isn't doing anything but making the prayer feel a little better about...not having to do anything.

 

Pray for those affected by Hurricane Sandy? *snort* Go donate blood, donate blankets and food, go to NJ and NY and help on the ground, send money directly to people affected....

 

Praying for those affected by the shooting in Connecticut? You'd do more if you took the time to help someone with a mental illness, donated to the Red Cross, donated blood (again), lobby for security systems in schools...

 

 

I think I may need a nap. It's snowing and cold and my parents just cancelled on DS7 and so now I'm a tad bit cranky.

[Guest inoubliable]

Yeah, I meant outside of the religious circles. Could it be that the same people who wouldn't vote for Hillary because she's a women are religious so wouldn't vote for her regardless?

 

 

Not sure, honestly. I suspect that they are. I've not had anyone say this in conversation with me. It's more like I overheard someone at the supermarket and the library kind of thing. My town is very conservative and deeply religious.

[Izzy]

 

 

Kinda like the whole "I'll pray for you" sentiment. *sigh* I seem harsh today! What I mean is that, while I appreciate someone's thinking of me and my situation or anyone's situation, really, a prayer isn't doing anything but making the prayer feel a little better about...not having to do anything.

 

Pray for those affected by Hurricane Sandy? *snort* Go donate blood, donate blankets and food, go to NJ and NY and help on the ground, send money directly to people affected....

 

Praying for those affected by the shooting in Connecticut? You'd do more if you took the time to help someone with a mental illness, donated to the Red Cross, donated blood (again), lobby for security systems in schools...

 

 

I think I may need a nap. It's snowing and cold and my parents just cancelled on DS7 and so now I'm a tad bit cranky.

 

 

I'm in Texas so have no clue what snow is. It's 77 degrees here. ;) Grandma and Grandpa are taking the kids tomorrow. I'm declaring a cleaning day!

[Guest inoubliable]

I'm in Texas so have no clue what snow is. It's 77 degrees here. ;) Grandma and Grandpa are taking the kids tomorrow. I'm declaring a cleaning day!

 

 

Very nice! LOL. We did a little more cleaning here today than usual because I was antsy about my parents showing up. Oh well. At least I had a good excuse to bleach the bathroom floors for a third time this week and not have my family look at me like I'd lost my mind.

 

I think it might be time to make something sweet and delicious and covered in chocolate.

[BrookValley.]

You know, I don't think it's risky having this group. I don't think a Christian would be tempted to open this thread. I could be wrong though.

 

I don't have girls (4 boys) but I can see how it would be hard to raise a girl in the current homeschooling climate. I might be naive but aren't women otherwise pretty equal these days? I'm asking that as a genuine question as I really don't know the answer for sure. I'm not being snarky. :D

 

 

I dunno, I totally check out the Christian social group threads, not because I'm interested, but because I think it's interesting, if that makes sense? If I were a Christian I would check out this thread, too. I don't think that it's risky, though. No one is being disrespectful; just discussing their beliefs. Besides, the folks on this board seem mellow enough to agree to disagree and understand that all homeschooling families are not cut from the same cloth.

 

My opinion? Yes and no. I wouldn't quite say that women are not pretty equal these days because I think there's still a lot of room for improvement. The same goes for other minority groups. Are things pretty good? Yes. Has a lot been accomplished for various civil rights over the last century or so? Absolutely. But there's still quite a bit of inequality--it's just a lot more subtle, in most cases (such as unequal pay between genders. Not as in-your-face as not having the right to vote, but still an inequality). And everything KKinVA said in response to your question...I agree.

 

As for Hillary, I think there's definitely a percentage of the population that is religious and their political views are in line with their religious views, so no, they wouldn't vote for Hillary anyway. But there are plenty of democrats who wouldn't vote for Hillary because she was a woman. It goes back to that more subtle sexism and inequality. There are plenty of people who just aren't there yet. I don't get it, but I see it all the time.

[dbmamaz]

again, i just avoid religious people . . . i'm not particularly social. My daughter actually dumped ALL of her high school friends because she tried to help re-start the gay-straight alliance at her high school and NONE of her friends would come - because they arent gay, because their parents wouldnt approve, because its against the bible. She was heartbroken. Luckily one other kid from our UU church totally took it on and got it big and successful. But she was pretty convinced that living in Virginia was making her crazy. She thought she would make friends this year, in the university. But the first person who seemed like a friend finally admitted he didnt believe in evolution. Well, ok, maybe she could work with that. Then he said he didnt believe in SCIENCE. Uggg. Richmond VA is a small, southern city, but its a city! how can people be so ignorant! I tell you, the longer we study the civil war, the less I want to live here. and i already hated it.

[Audrey]

Americans could learn a few things from Canadians. Politics are a mess here and religion is such a big reason why.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that the most peaceful countries are the most Athiest and the most violent ones are the most religious.

 

 

 

Hmm... well I really wouldn't call Canada or the UK atheist. Quite the contrary. The majority of people in both countries identify as Christian of one stripe or another.

 

What our countries ARE, though, is publically secular. There is a huge difference between atheist and secular. The secular public sphere of Canada does not deny the existence of gods (as atheism does). Rather, the secular public sphere of Canada has no comment on gods. Period.

 

As Laura said -- religion is treated as a private matter, between the individual and the gods of his/her choice.

[Guest inoubliable]

Richmond VA is a small, southern city, but its a city! how can people be so ignorant! I tell you, the longer we study the civil war, the less I want to live here. and i already hated it.

 

Mhmm. I've been here all my life. I've lived in the Tidewater region, the Piedmont, and in the Blue Ridge. It's like that state-wide, unfortunately. It's a whole other twist on "deep south" and "good old boys' club".

[Guest inoubliable]

Hmm... well I really wouldn't call Canada or the UK atheist. Quite the contrary. The majority of people in both countries identify as Christian of one stripe or another.

 

What our countries ARE, though, is publically secular. There is a huge difference between atheist and secular. The secular public sphere of Canada does not deny the existence of gods (as atheism does). Rather, the secular public sphere of Canada has no comment on gods. Period.

 

As Laura said -- religion is treated as a private matter, between the individual and the gods of his/her choice.

 

Which is how it should be. If only we had something in our constitution stating that....

[MistyMountain]

Have you all seen the Dawkins Scale? Going by the scale, I am a de facto atheist. Even though my beliefs align with Secular Humanism, I am a strong atheist. None of us can know for certain if there are any gods. We just have to go by what we know and what is probable.

 

I never saw this scale before. It puts me at defacto atheist but it is funny I would consider myself like Dawkin mentioned maybe a 6.9. I am not a 7 but 6 doesn't seem strong enough either. I label myself a secular humanist because that does a decent job of describing how I view things.

 

I started attending a UU church recently. I originally went for the children's program. I wanted my kids to learn about all different religions in a non biased way especially since they were exposed to a lot of religion. I attend the services and I like it more than I thought I would. I enjoy the discussions on humanitarian issues and how everyone is accepted including secular humanists of which there are many there. I really like the people that go there. I wanted the community aspect of church but not the belief in a deity and I get that there.

 

I was raised a Catholic but was pretty much always at least a pure agnostic. I was never into the church or classes and was pretty much forced to go. I would often pretend to be asleep as I got older to get out of going. I became an atheist as a teenager. Part of what kept me in believing in the possibility was the threat of hell and at that age I examined my beliefs and met an atheist that was out and had lots of discussions. I never wavered from it once I became one. I'm very hesitant to tell people though. Atheists is the group that has the least trust from people. I had people tell us we are going to hell. I won't lie but I don't really tell everyone either.

 

I don't talk to my kids about my beliefs much yet. I don't feel they are old enough and have the critical thinking or cognitive to really grapple it at their ages yet. I just have simple conversations and don't force them into my views. As they get older I will have deeper talks about it. I hope they have similar beliefs but I don't want to force them into it. I want them to have knowledge of religion from a general and informational perspective.

[Izzy]

 

 

 

 

Hmm... well I really wouldn't call Canada or the UK atheist. Quite the contrary. The majority of people in both countries identify as Christian of one stripe or another.

 

What our countries ARE, though, is publically secular. There is a huge difference between atheist and secular. The secular public sphere of Canada does not deny the existence of gods (as atheism does). Rather, the secular public sphere of Canada has no comment on gods. Period.

 

As Laura said -- religion is treated as a private matter, between the individual and the gods of his/her choice.

 

 

I should have worded that differently. I meant countries with the highest percentage of athiests versus countries with highest percentage of religious people.

 

 

I remember the outrage when Obama was elected because he was supposedly Muslim. I felt like to only person saying so what? Why should we care if our president is Muslim? We have no business knowing our president's religious affiliation and he or she has no business sharing it.

 

I hope Hillary does decide to run for president.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

 

I hope Hillary does decide to run for president.

 

 

Me too.

[Izzy]

 

 

I never saw this scale before. It puts me at defacto atheist but it is funny I would consider myself like Dawkin mentioned maybe a 6.9. I am not a 7 but 6 doesn't seem strong enough either. I label myself a secular humanist because that does a decent job of describing how I view things.

 

I started attending a UU church recently. I originally went for the children's program. I wanted my kids to learn about all different religions in a non biased way especially since they were exposed to a lot of religion. I attend the services and I like it more than I thought I would. I enjoy the discussions on humanitarian issues and how everyone is accepted including secular humanists of which there are many there. I really like the people that go there. I wanted the community aspect of church but not the belief in a deity and I get that there.

 

I was raised a Catholic but was pretty much always at least a pure agnostic. I was never into the church or classes and was pretty much forced to go. I would often pretend to be asleep as I got older to get out of going. I became an atheist as a teenager. Part of what kept me in believing in the possibility was the threat of hell and at that age I examined my beliefs and met an atheist that was out and had lots of discussions. I never wavered from it once I became one. I'm very hesitant to tell people though. Atheists is the group that has the least trust from people. I had people tell us we are going to hell. I won't lie but I don't really tell everyone either.

 

I don't talk to my kids about my beliefs much yet. I don't feel they are old enough and have the critical thinking or cognitive to really grapple it at their ages yet. I just have simple conversations and don't force them into my views. As they get older I will have deeper talks about it. I hope they have similar beliefs but I don't want to force them into it. I want them to have knowledge of religion from a general and informational perspective.

 

 

Once I got over the hell issue my de-conversion was smooth sailing. But that was no easy feat to get over. It's the threat that keeps us believing even when we don't. :(

[dbmamaz]

yeah, i'm from pennsylvania. when i reconnected with some old college friends on youtube, i was shocked to realize some of them are pretty in to their xtianity. its just something we never talked about in our social circles.

 

but also explains why VA just doesnt feel like home . . i'm yankee

[Jennifer3141]

Born and raised in Michigan and it's pretty yucky at times too. Especially with a wingnut running the state. Hey, you cannot use scientific names for women's genitalia here. :glare:

I had a good friend move away from west Michigan because there were, "Too many Hispanics and not enough churches" and we've never quite been able to get our friendship past that idiotic statement.

 

And then we moved up north and the milita is seriously here. :laugh:

 

I don't read the Xtian threads here. It hurts to read people deliberately not think. And not all the threads are like that but I've seen far too many, "Just take it on faith!" responses to last a lifetime.

 

The praying thing makes me laugh too, KK. As my DH once replied, "Well, thank you so much for doing nothing for X. I was really worried you'd make sure he had enough to eat and a warm place to sleep." :confused1:

[LaxMom]

 

 

I saw that quote too. Even as a Christian I never understood the reasoning behind people believing athiests were immoral. It amazes me that people truly believe this and honestly don't get why it offends people. Really??

 

Well, if we concede the assumption that morality comes from the Bible, I would claim Amoral. The biblical, "moral", code simply doesn't factor in, in that case. IMmoral suggests I'm living in conflict with the code, which I don't think is possible for an ethical person. (I'm obviously speaking to the ones having to do with the treatment of fellow humans, not the belief ones) I don't lie, cheat, steal, kill, or covet. I honor ALL people (sometimes by stepping away from them when their conduct and psychology is questionable).

 

Of course, as an ethical person, I think the Bible doesn't go far enough, and in many cases falls flat, in the ethical treatment of people, so... Yeah, I've had this conversation with a conservative Christian friend before.

 

Eta: and, yes, I know that ethics and morality both tread the same path. Morality seems to have more of a direct religious connotation, though, at least in American culture... Maybe it's simply been usurped?

[Izzy]

Born and raised in Michigan and it's pretty yucky at times too. Especially with a wingnut running the state. Hey, you cannot use scientific names for women's genitalia here. :glare:

I had a good friend move away from west Michigan because there were, "Too many Hispanics and not enough churches" and we've never quite been able to get our friendship past that idiotic statement.

 

And then we moved up north and the milita is seriously here. :laugh:

 

I don't read the Xtian threads here. It hurts to read people deliberately not think. And not all the threads are like that but I've seen far too many, "Just take it on faith!" responses to last a lifetime.

 

The praying thing makes me laugh too, KK. As my DH once replied, "Well, thank you so much for doing nothing for X. I was really worried you'd make sure he had enough to eat and a warm place to sleep." :confused1:

 

My DH and kids are Hispanic so "too many Hispanics and not enough churches" would make me ballistic. Ugh the ignorance!

 

I don't read the religious threads either. I did join the Progressive Christianity one which was extremeley helpful in letting go of religion. I also like the new Alternative Spirituality one. I'll be lurking on that one. I already told them though. :p

 

I'm struggling with my 7 yo possibly having dyslexia and the decisions I have to make. How nice it would be to pray and have faith it will all work out. How liberating it is to trust my judgment and not have to pray about every. single. thing waiting for god's answer. I got this. :D

[Izzy]

 

Well, if we concede the assumption that morality comes from the Bible, I would claim Amoral. The biblical, "moral", code simply doesn't factor in, in that case. IMmoral suggests I'm living in conflict with the code, which I don't think is possible for an ethical person. (I'm obviously speaking to the ones having to do with the treatment of fellow humans, not the belief ones) I don't lie, cheat, steal, kill, or covet. I honor ALL people (sometimes by stepping away from them when their conduct and psychology is questionable).

 

Of course, as an ethical person, I think the Bible doesn't go far enough, and in many cases falls flat, in the ethical treatment of people, so... Yeah, I've had this conversation with a conservative Christian friend before.

 

Eta: and, yes, I know that ethics and morality both tread the same path. Morality seems to have more of a direct religious connotation, though, at least in American culture... Maybe it's simply been usurped?

 

Agreed.

 

Sort of random but this made me think of free will and whether or not we actually have it. I've seen this discussed on Dawkin's site and I don't fully understand it yet. Some people believe we don't actually have free will and we just think we do. It's really interesting.

[Izzy]

Here is a good link about free will.

 

http://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/do-we-have-free-will/

[Jennifer3141]

What I don't understand about the whole argument about only finding morality in the bible is how people make that claim when:

 

1. We have documentation of hundreds, maybe thousands of cases of child molestation by the catholic church

2. We have Westboro Baptist. That whackjob isn't reading from the Koran every weekend.

3. We have ministers who have shot people, had affairs with their parishoners, embezzeled money, etc. etc.

 

And on and on and on....How many Xtian televangelists in this country have been caught with hookers and/or Bentleys again?? So when I hear that argument I chuckle. At least give me something challenging!!!

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

As for Hillary, I think there's definitely a percentage of the population that is religious and their political views are in line with their religious views, so no, they wouldn't vote for Hillary anyway. But there are plenty of democrats who wouldn't vote for Hillary because she was a woman. It goes back to that more subtle sexism and inequality. There are plenty of people who just aren't there yet. I don't get it, but I see it all the time.

 

 

MIL and FIL are hardcore Republicans, but not at all religious. They wouldn't vote for Hilary for the same reason they wouldn't vote for Obama, or Kerry, or Al Gore, etc. Because they're Democrats.

[Izzy]

But those people aren't "true believers". That's the out. I don't get it either but there's always an ambiguous answer for everything. That ambiguity is what makes it so easy to turn religion into whatever you want it to be and so hard for so many to let go of religion. The answers to tough questions are usually have faith, we don't fully understand god but god is always right, you're reading that out of context, we are unworthy humans deserving of hell so have no right to question god, true Christians vs. professing Christians, and if all else fails...go find a bible study. There are no real answers.

[Izzy]

 

 

MIL and FIL are hardcore Republicans, but not at all religious. They wouldn't vote for Hilary for the same reason they wouldn't vote for Obama, or Kerry, or Al Gore, etc. Because they're Democrats.

 

 

I can completely respect that. :D

[Cafdog]

Late to the party...but so happy this thread was started. Thank you!

 

I am one of the few atheist homeschoolers in my small, conservative CA town. It's pretty lonely.

[Guest inoubliable]

Late to the party...but so happy this thread was started. Thank you!

 

I am one of the few atheist homeschoolers in my small, conservative CA town. It's pretty lonely.

 

 

Welcome aboard! :)

[LaxMom]

What I don't understand about the whole argument about only finding morality in the bible is how people make that claim when:

 

1. We have documentation of hundreds, maybe thousands of cases of child molestation by the catholic church

2. We have Westboro Baptist. That whackjob isn't reading from the Koran every weekend.

3. We have ministers who have shot people, had affairs with their parishoners, embezzeled money, etc. etc.

 

And on and on and on....How many Xtian televangelists in this country have been caught with hookers and/or Bentleys again?? So when I hear that argument I chuckle. At least give me something challenging!!!

 

Well, let's not forget the thousands of years of killing and torturing and pillaging before trappings of modern greed popped in. I like to think I am much more moral than that.

[Jennifer3141]

Well, let's not forget the thousands of years of killing and torturing and pillaging before trappings of modern greed popped in. I like to think I am much more moral than that.

 

 

 

Well, there's that too but I didn't want to brag or anything...

 

I've had a couple of weeks of good conversations with my religious nut mother. Tonight was more the norm. I do believe it's a full moon though so there you go. I can't see squat through all this snow!!!

[Free]

I think most people take comfort in believing there is a plan, a reason bad things happen to good people etc.

 

But i hope that most rational people know its just a comforting fable - even if it is comfortable to them in the moment, that doesnt make it reality

No I don't think most rational people know this. I am a recent atheist. I accepted there is no God a little over a year back. For a long, long time I took the existence of God for granted. Not the angry, petty God who demands obedience and worship. I am a Hindu - such a concept of God is alien to us. Just a higher power, "the first cause", if you will. I never even thought to ask myself the question "Is there a God?". The people who thought there is no God were as ridiculous to me as the people who thought the bible stories truly happened.

 

It was when I did finally ask myself, "Is it even possible that there is no God?" and "How can I know there is a God?" that I started on the thought journey that ended in atheism. Sometime during the process of questioning, I think I realised that one of the reasons I believed in God was because I desperately "wanted" to believe in God. I wanted my existence to have some meaning. When I looked at the complexity in nature and the vastness of the universe I kept asking myself - "How can this be? How can all of this have no purpose, no meaning?". I wanted the self aware, intelligent humans to have a purpose beyond just living and dying. I remember clearly that I finally got over that mental block when one day I was looking at an ant-hill with ants scurrying about their own busy lives. What would happen if I crushed a few hundred or even a few thousand of those ants? What difference would it make to anything? What would happen if I destroyed that ant-hill? In my mind, I likened it to a tsunami hitting a city :laugh:. The ants however don't search for meaning in their existence or ask "Why?". They just go about rebuilding. What made me think then that humans living or dying made one bit of a difference to this universe. I mean, just look at our earth. It is one tiny speck, even compared to it's fellow planets, let alone the trillions of stars and multitudes of galaxies.

 

It disturbed me initially though to think that this was it. This was one life I had, and I had already messed it up plenty. It was a depressing thought....until I realized how wonderful it was in reality. How miraculous life was, how miraculous intelligence was. That my life did have a meaning and a purpose - to me. That if there was anything I wanted to do, I better do it right now, right here in this life.

[Guest inoubliable]

That my life did have a meaning and a purpose - to me. That if there was anything I wanted to do, I better do it right now, right here in this life.

 

That is beautiful.

[albeto]

This is probably not a safe place, but what the heck....along these lines I wonder how so many people can believe it. And I wonder why I don't. What is different about my brain (and your brain, and the brain of those like us)? KWIM?

 

7 if not 8.

 

;)

 

I know there is no god as sure as I know my shoes don't sprout wings and fly around my bedroom when I'm sleeping.

 

I raised my kids to be good Catholics, and now one of them doesn't remember who Moses was. As they get older and start to apply their critical analysis skills to current events (like bills in AZ suggesting one must make an oath to yahweh as part of graduation ceremony, former presidential candidates throwing out bizarre conspiracy theories such as gay marriage, abortion, and porn are due to "college indoctrination." or the president's inaugural address mentioning the need to fight for current civil rights), they find less and less sympathy for the plights of the religion. As far as I'm concerned, I'm no more inspired to teach my kids to respect religion than I am inspired to teach my kids to respect the KKK or any other supremacy/hate-group. Tradition =/= Noble.

[Marylou]

What I don't understand about the whole argument about only finding morality in the bible is how people make that claim when:

 

1. We have documentation of hundreds, maybe thousands of cases of child molestation by the catholic church

2. We have Westboro Baptist. That whackjob isn't reading from the Koran every weekend.

3. We have ministers who have shot people, had affairs with their parishoners, embezzeled money, etc. etc.

 

And on and on and on....How many Xtian televangelists in this country have been caught with hookers and/or Bentleys again?? So when I hear that argument I chuckle. At least give me something challenging!!!

 

Have you ever done a study on the visible/invisible Church? That might be challenging!

[Marylou]

Since the topic of abortion/equality for women (and also Christianity) have come up several times on this thread, I'm wondering if anyone wants to give his opinion on this article written by a Christian? If not, that's fine.

 

I guess my question would be: when people talk about equal rights for women (regarding reproduction), is it like this: "Women should be no more encumbered by the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy than men"? I would like to hear what non-Christians have to say about it.

[jar7709]

Have any of you found a good, neutral-ish book of Bible stories? My daughter LOVES her Daulaire myth books, and while reading a Greek myth of the flood tonight I said, "wow, does this remind you of anything?" and she said, "no, what?" and it dawned on me that perhaps I have skipped some 'cultural knowledge'-type Bible stories. Oh. We have a couple bibles around here somewhere, but I would prefer something that presents your typical Bible stories rather like the Daulaire books present Greek and Norse myths, iykwim.