SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[Rosie_0801]

Your prior post had ritual and superstition hand-in-hand. Let's separate them: Do you think that getting rid of superstition alone leads to a less rich life? Or do you think the two are intrinsically tied together, and thus can't answer the question?

 

I think that one can have ritual without having superstition.

 

 

One can have ritual without superstition. If one skips her morning coffee does she think anything worse is going to happen than she's going to be grumpy? That's not superstition that's biochemistry.

 

I object to the idea that we need to declare war on ALL superstitions. I don't think anyone will be healthier for being gone through with a fine tooth comb. There are some superstitions that are dangerous on a large scale. There are some that are unhealthy on an individual scale (so we call that OCD.) I really don't think people need to give up *playing* with superstitions like having lucky dice or lucky socks.

 

Now "less rich life" is a problematical phrase. Giving up my (let's pretend) belief in lucky socks would mean my life was slightly less rich than before. I am now lacking a little quirk I got some pleasure out of. No, I don't think my world is going to crumble and throw me into the depths of depression, but nor do I think I am now more rational in a significant way. I don't think I've swapped one thing for anything of greater value.

[Rosie_0801]

When people get superstitious like "if one more baby is aborted then god will throw a MAJOR temper tantrum and *I* don't want to have to deal with that so I'd better do what I can to make sure no one aborts a pregnancy!", that's when I have a problem.

 

 

:ack2:

 

There's a god that needs to grow up.

[Guest inoubliable]

:ack2:

 

There's a god that needs to grow up.

 

 

I've always thought that the Christian god must be a bit of a perv. He (and they) are very very concerned with what one does with their bits and pieces. Abortion - nope. Ghey seks - nope. "Self love" (what?? LOL. someone else called it that on another thread.) - nope. Seks before marriage - nope.

 

Why does anyone care where someone puts their gigglestick?? Why does anyone care if someone doesn't prefer a gigglestick? It's all so weird and icky that they think about it enough to have rules and sermons and books and lectures and punishments and interviews and.... WEIRD.

[Rosie_0801]

I've vaguely wondered what that god thinks of asexuals. Haven't known who to ask though. :p

[Guest inoubliable]

I've vaguely wondered what that god thinks of asexuals. Haven't known who to ask though. :p

 

 

There are oh, so many social groups here that you could poll.... :laugh:

[Audrey]

wouldn't it be nice to live a life that didn't revolve around the old christ-moble anymore?

 

 

 

Yes. It is much nicer living my life and almost never giving a thought to the old christ-mobile.

[Lady Florida.]

 

I've always thought that the Christian god must be a bit of a perv. He (and they) are very very concerned with what one does with their bits and pieces. Abortion - nope.

 

 

 

Actually abortion - yes, if a man thinks his wife cheated on him and got pregnant by another man.

[Jennifer3141]

 

Was that an unauthorized love bank deposit you just made?

 

Kidding, kidding. I think. That "married and no friends who wear pants" discussion has got me.

 

 

It was, KK. Post something clever and I'll make a love deposit to you too. ACKK!!! :laugh:

[Jennifer3141]

 

 

Yes. It is much nicer living my life and almost never giving a thought to the old christ-mobile.

 

 

If it wasn't for this forum and an occassional episode of The Office, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't give a thought to the christ-mobile. That Angela gets me every time though. She's plays it so accurately!!!

[albeto]

We might have to agree to disagree-ish there.

 

Sure, no problem. My point is that if someone wants to support their opinion that a particular superstitious belief is valuable, I'm not interested censoring myself to comfort their ignorance. If information makes someone *feel* offended, that ought not be mistaken with it *being* offensive.

 

No. I'm not saying removing superstitious belief is going to turn a person into some kind of robot or sci-fi style race. I don't see that people need to be liberated from their harmless little superstitious quirks though.

 

Fair enough.

 

Ja, look. I'm not explaining myself well and from the words of mine you are highlighting, I don't get the idea you are interested in putting the effort into helping me into commonly understood language. Maybe someone else will understand and reword, or maybe they won't.

 

 

I can only go by the words written in the post. I don't know what you mean by comparing a lack of superstitious belief to thinking like computers, or it leading to being stronger to the point of weakness. Further, on a thread that functions as a social hang-out for people who discard theistic and religious claims, it should come as no surprise that these comments would be rejected.

[Jennifer3141]

Sure, no problem. My point is that if someone wants to support their opinion that a particular superstitious belief is valuable, I'm not interested censoring myself to comfort their ignorance. If information makes someone *feel* offended, that ought not be mistaken with it *being* offensive.

 

 

 

Fair enough.

 

 

 

I can only go by the words written in the post. I don't know what you mean by comparing a lack of superstitious belief to thinking like computers, or it leading to being stronger to the point of weakness. Further, on a thread that functions as a social hang-out for people who discard theistic and religious claims, it should come as no surprise that these comments would be rejected.

 

 

I'm going to join with Rosie here and capture her phrase about disagree-ishness. I'm tired of repeating myself so you just post away. But don't expect a lot of backing from those of us who have grown beyond bitterness. And be aware that you will probably be banned here and if this is someplace you come to for help with your child's education, that might be a problem. If you're only here to insult people, you'll be fine.

[albeto]

 

 

I'm going to join with Rosie here and capture her phrase about disagree-ishness. I'm tired of repeating myself so you just post away. But don't expect a lot of backing from those of us who have grown beyond bitterness. And be aware that you will probably be banned here and if this is someplace you come to for help with your child's education, that might be a problem. If you're only here to insult people, you'll be fine.

 

Is it expected to support religious beliefs on this forum? Even on an atheist social group thread?

 

Thanks for the warning.

[Jennifer3141]

 

Is it expected to support religious beliefs on this forum? Even on an atheist social group thread?

 

Thanks for the warning.

 

 

No, religious belief is clearly not required. But there are rules for behavior here. If you want to break those, go for it. IME, the mods are very generous with people. But if you want to bait and harrass, you will eventually be banned.

[Rosie_0801]

Let's try and panel beat this back into some sort of aesthetically pleasing shape.

 

Religion in general has a lot of negatives to it, but clearly it serves a function for many people. What benefits of religion could be achieved secularly? (Approaching this from the idea that exchanging less healthy for more healthy is likely to have greater long term affect than ditching one and leaving a vacuum. A point amply illustrated in all the diet threads. :p)

 

Here's the first link I found on the benefits of religion: http://www.articleclick.com/Article/10-Benefits-Of-Religion/1192956

 

 

1. Friendship Friendship is a vital element of any religion. Congregation members can make wonderful and lasting friendships that can last a lifetime. The church is a place to meet others that share your beliefs giving you a strong platform to build a friendship on.

 

2. Spiritual Growth Your beliefs will be strengthened and confirmed. You will explore your spirituality and from that can come personal growth. Your faith can help you find answers to those difficult questions and help you better understand your purpose in this world. Spiritual growth is a very personal adventure.

 

3. Mental Health Religion has been show to improve a person’s mental well being. Their belief system is reinforced and the interaction with other congregational members is very beneficial to one overall mental health.

 

4. Physical Health We have all read and heard about cases where a person’s physical well being has been improved by their religious beliefs. There are many documented cases where person’s beliefs have been the reason for their ability to fight a disease and become healthy again or to overcome obstacles and challenges relating to their health.

 

5. Community Religion builds community as individuals share their faith with other brothers and sisters of their religion. Social gatherings and meeting encourage a community to grow and prosper within the faith.

 

6. Creative Exp

ression Religion also builds creativity and artistic skills through music and prayer. Congregational members are also able to increase their skill by participating in the choir or helping decorate the hall for a celebration.

 

7. A Break Attending church sets a recognizable break away from work, family issues, and self fulfilling issues. It’s a time out period that is dedicated to concentrating on the Lord.

 

8. Consoling Many people have found help for loneliness and grief in religion. In fact many have been known to turn to religion after the loss of a partner or loved one. In times of sadness and loneliness the church congregation and religion can be very consoling to a person.

 

9. Strength The faith in ones religion can give a person the strength to carry on, to struggle through obstacles and become a stronger and better person from the experience.

 

10. Life Changing For some finding faith can be life changing. We’ve all heard of criminals that found God and turned their lives around to become a productive member in society.

 

(I am not saying this is a very good list. That last sentence is kind of :ack2: But let's work on building rather than merely destroying. No obligation to participate, of course.)

 

[Guest inoubliable]

I think you're right, Rosie, that religion can and does serve a purpose for some people. And some of those people DO use their religious beliefs to be kind, generous, loving, accepting, and productive people in society. That is so extremely rare here, though. (Meaning the U.S., you see.) I can't know how it is in other countries, beyond what I've read and what people who live abroad have told me. Here, though, I'd say the majority of people use religious to exclude people, to humiliate and oppress people, to justify their bigotry and hate.

 

Most of my American atheist/agnostic friends ARE angry. Religion pervades our government. It's on Fox News. It's around when banners are torn down and law suits have to be filed to keep prayer posters out of public schools. It shows up on bills throughout the country trying to keep gay people from having civil rights in marriage. It is infuriating at times. It is extremely hard to see any good in religion or see any good religious people here. (This is all my own opinion, of course, based on what I personally have seen/heard/gone through.)

 

Take your #1 off your list. Friendship. I have no idea how it works elsewhere, but *here* if your social circle is your church congregation, you're not very likely to form friendships outside of your religion. What's more, any friendship you have outside of church is likely to be a friendship where you're secretly judging your friend, trying to convert them to "save" them, or explaining to your church friends that so-and-so is your "project", your "mission". It's not as healthy as it could be. Not here.

 

#2 - spiritual growth. I think it's fantastic when people question and seek and grow. No matter where they end up on their journey. The problem is that you are shunned if you question too much. Lost Boys from FLDS. Recovering Catholics. Ladies who didn't want to date Tom Cruise. You start questioning, and you're out on your butt. So people don't question. Oh, they do Bible studies and listen to lectures. That confirm what they've already been told! It's not freeing in this country to question. And if you end up in a different place than the one you've been in for years - you most likely lost friends and family over it.

 

#3 - mental health. Not much to say here, except that I know some people who have mental health issues who are NOT being helped by their church community, but being ostracized instead. Note, too, how mentally healthy someone must be to accept and support a religion that oppresses groups of people and is okay with hate. Again, I'm speaking only on how it is HERE that I have personally seen.

 

I could go on, but what I really just want to say is that, while I recognize that for some religion is peaceful and spiritual and that some good works are done because of it, you're not likely to find that in the U.S. I guess what atheists HERE want to get across is that it is entirely possible to be good without god before we can even start on fostering any good that comes of religion.

[Rosie_0801]

I'll go first since I'm here.

 

 

1. Friendship Friendship is a vital element of any religion. Congregation members can make wonderful and lasting friendships that can last a lifetime. The church is a place to meet others that share your beliefs giving you a strong platform to build a friendship on.

 

Theoretically friends can be found anywhere, but it is equally apparent from reading the lonely Mamma threads on here that it isn't that simple. I suppose one advantage I can see for a church going family is that it is expected that the family will be attending church. There is no concern about whether or not a babysitter can be found, because the whole family goes. There is no thoughts about whether or not anyone is entitled to that time, because everyone is. I can't think of any social event I can take my kids to that everyone (society, spouse etc) would agree was an entitlement. Other than family gatherings, but not everyone has good luck in that department. With all the "how rude was this person for commenting on my life" threads, I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to make friends. One must start with some sort of small talk. Are there any acceptable topics left other than the weather?

 

 

2. Spiritual Growth Your beliefs will be strengthened and confirmed. You will explore your spirituality and from that can come personal growth. Your faith can help you find answers to those difficult questions and help you better understand your purpose in this world. Spiritual growth is a very personal adventure.

 

Ja. Personal. That's why I like to do those things by myself. I don't require anyone to confirm my beliefs so I don't really understand how to secularise this beyond saying "Dude! Grow some self esteem!" which wouldn't really help. Are there adults with healthy self esteem that require this sort strengthening and confirming? I can think of one person on the forum who seems to fit that profile, but that isn't very many and 'seems' doesn't mean 'is.' I'm not going to go and ask her to be my case study. :p Difficult questions? It's been a long time since I thought they were difficult. Now I categorise them as either sorted or irrelevant. *shrug* Personally, I think if one leaves their imagination unattended long enough, it'll come up with something to satisfy if one is still able to listen to one's own self. So, I dunno about this one.

 

3. Mental Health Religion has been show to improve a person’s mental well being. Their belief system is reinforced and the interaction with other congregational members is very beneficial to one overall mental health.

 

Everyone benefits from validation. Perhaps people could try being nice to each other or something.

 

4. Physical Health We have all read and heard about cases where a person’s physical well being has been improved by their religious beliefs. There are many documented cases where person’s beliefs have been the reason for their ability to fight a disease and become healthy again or to overcome obstacles and challenges relating to their health.

 

Mmmm. The power of positive thinking. Placebo drugs were a great invention. I'm pretty sure anyone can secularly want to be well.

 

5. Community Religion builds community as individuals share their faith with other brothers and sisters of their religion. Social gatherings and meeting encourage a community to grow and prosper within the faith.

 

Cheat! This is a rehash of previous points! But community seems very difficult to find for most people. There are secular solutions, but as I said before there aren't many hobby groups that welcome whole families.

 

 

6. Creative Expression Religion also builds creativity and artistic skills through music and prayer. Congregational members are also able to increase their skill by participating in the choir or helping decorate the hall for a celebration.

 

It creates an excuse for using those skills. Other excuses can be found. As for improving skill, there's some amazing stuff on Youtube... This does, however, come back to the point about mandated time. Singing at church is the responsible thing to do, taking voice lessons outside of church is self indulgent?

 

7. A Break Attending church sets a recognizable break away from work, family issues, and self fulfilling issues. It’s a time out period that is dedicated to concentrating on the Lord.

 

Secular people don't need to concentrate on Lords. But again, there's that legitimacy issue. We could secularise this point to "me time" or "thinking time." "Me time" has been covered in enough threads on here that I don't think we need to hash it again. "Thinking time?" I generally think as I go. I think while I talk to people. I do my equivalent of devotions in a few minutes after the kids go to bed. I also follow the Wheel of the Year, which is obviously not secular, but even our secular calendars offer what could be called appointments to think about certain issues, if we cared to. I believe MLK day has just been, and that is a good example.

 

8. Consoling Many people have found help for loneliness and grief in religion. In fact many have been known to turn to religion after the loss of a partner or loved one. In times of sadness and loneliness the church congregation and religion can be very consoling to a person.

 

I'm ok with "sh!t happens," but I'm not sure what the secular world has to offer the more sensitive types.

 

9. Strength The faith in ones religion can give a person the strength to carry on, to struggle through obstacles and become a stronger and better person from the experience.

 

Honestly, if one really has strength, one will find an excuse to keep going. I tend to think that if one doesn't, religion won't help.

 

10. Life Changing For some finding faith can be life changing. We’ve all heard of criminals that found God and turned their lives around to become a productive member in society.

 

Yeah. Maybe I should have left that off the list. Personally I thought discovering a way of preparing rhubarb so it didn't make my teeth crawl was life changing.

[dbmamaz]

so, why are we discussing religion on an atheism thread? I thought the whole point was so that we could talk about stuff OTHER than religion. i honestly find this all rather boring and, you know, annoying. I thought we'd just be talking about homeschooling kids in a secular way or something.

[Guest inoubliable]

Now that I've got a refill of Cherry Coke (a once in a blue moon thing for me), and I'm comfy in bed, let me try this again.

 

 

 

1. Friendship Friendship is a vital element of any religion. Congregation members can make wonderful and lasting friendships that can last a lifetime. The church is a place to meet others that share your beliefs giving you a strong platform to build a friendship on.

 

 

 

 

Friends can be found just about anywhere. Strike up a conversation with a parent at the park with a child the same age as yours. Volunteer with another parent at your kid's school for a function. Take a class at the local community college. Join a book club. It's possible to find people outside of your church circle. I don't see why people couldn't find meaningful friendships that don't rely on a common faith. Find meaningful friendships with people that support a common interest.

 

 

 

 

2. Spiritual Growth Your beliefs will be strengthened and confirmed. You will explore your spirituality and from that can come personal growth. Your faith can help you find answers to those difficult questions and help you better understand your purpose in this world. Spiritual growth is a very personal adventure.

 

 

 

 

I find it hard to believe that anyone with real questions and who wants to explore their spirituality is going to meet with anything but derision or humiliation going through a religious pipeline. Much better, IMO, to get an honest feedback or the benefit of a different perspective when challenging your beliefs or questioning your faith in something. Definitely something a more secular outlook can do better. Unfortunately, some people lack the self-esteem to be able to handle a different perspective and need someone to hold their hand and tell them, "why, yes, Betty! That's the way of it!"

 

 

 

 

3. Mental Health Religion has been show to improve a person’s mental well being. Their belief system is reinforced and the interaction with other congregational members is very beneficial to one overall mental health.

 

 

 

 

Huh. Well.... Mental health is a huge issue in this country. Unfortunately, I don't see much help from the religious. I see it from the secular community. We lobby for better health care, more affordable health care, more accessible health care. We want people kept in hospitals to get HELP, not imprisoned and then released. We want people to get the drugs they NEED, not kicked into the streets because they can't afford their psychotropic drug and keep a job. I don't see religion helping people with mental health issues. I think if people would just CARE about people more, more people would enjoy better mental health. It's that simple, I think. Start being more inclusive and tolerant.

 

 

 

 

4. Physical Health We have all read and heard about cases where a person’s physical well being has been improved by their religious beliefs. There are many documented cases where person’s beliefs have been the reason for their ability to fight a disease and become healthy again or to overcome obstacles and challenges relating to their health.

 

 

 

 

I have actually NEVER heard of the bolded... I can't..I don't...it's like the people who survive a heart surgery thanking the baby Jesus instead of the surgeon. *sigh*

 

 

 

 

 

5. Community Religion builds community as individuals share their faith with other brothers and sisters of their religion. Social gatherings and meeting encourage a community to grow and prosper within the faith.

 

 

 

 

I would like to see more Humanist communities, to be honest. Social meetings can be fun, especially with people who share your interests. No doubt about it. I've proposed things in my own community, trying to get secular humanists and atheists together for gatherings that actually get us involved in our communities. No dice. If there wasn't such a stigma about being out of the atheist closet in this country, maybe I'd get a bigger bite. No reason why a community can't grow and prosper by doing secular activities that benefit the community.

 

 

 

 

6. Creative Exp

ression Religion also builds creativity and artistic skills through music and prayer. Congregational members are also able to increase their skill by participating in the choir or helping decorate the hall for a celebration.

 

 

 

 

*snort* Build creativity and artistic skill by...taking a class, painting something, writing something, singing something. You can do all of those outside a religious organization. Weird, I know. No reason why skills and creativity can't be cultivated outside a church congregation.

 

 

 

 

7. A Break Attending church sets a recognizable break away from work, family issues, and self fulfilling issues. It’s a time out period that is dedicated to concentrating on the Lord.

 

 

 

 

Take a bath and dedicate some concentration on YOU. Drink a glass of wine. Take a class. Read a book. Take a walk. Call a friend....

 

 

 

 

8. Consoling Many people have found help for loneliness and grief in religion. In fact many have been known to turn to religion after the loss of a partner or loved one. In times of sadness and loneliness the church congregation and religion can be very consoling to a person.

 

 

 

 

You can find consolation in people who aren't within your church, you can certainly find help for loneliness and grief of all sorts in a secular way. How many of us here have sent good juju or given a hug to a member who was going through a crisis and asking for prayer? No one ever punched me in the face and said "I said PRAYER. GTFO." Offering an ear to listen, a shoulder to cry on, a meal delivered - any of that can come with out a "bless you" included.

 

 

 

 

9. Strength The faith in ones religion can give a person the strength to carry on, to struggle through obstacles and become a stronger and better person from the experience.

 

 

 

 

Suck it up, buttercup.

 

 

 

 

10. Life Changing For some finding faith can be life changing. We’ve all heard of criminals that found God and turned their lives around to become a productive member in society.

 

 

 

 

Blech!! And, I call bullshit on the criminal who found Jesus thing. I've had plenty of life changing moment that didn't have to do with faith. Birthing children comes to mind. Nothing miraculous about that.

 

 

 

 

 

This is harder than I thought. To put so much of this into words and not sound like a jerk. Seriously, so much of this seems like a no-brainer to me, but then I haven't been relying on religion or faith for these aspects of my life for such a very long time. It's hard to put into words how I manage to *be* without faith in a god, or a religion or congregation to back me up on that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chiguirre]

Thanks Izzy for that post about deconversion. I really hadn't thought what the experience would be like for someone who really, truly believed what their religion taught and it made me think.

 

I grew up in a family where, honestly, we're all closet (or not so closet, as the case may be) atheists. We just hit the highlights of Catholicism because it's the source of all of our family traditions and a badge of our tribal identity. I married someone with a similar family vibe so we've always been compatible. It must be so much harder if you don't jive with your family and if you don't have a model for how to live without belonging to a church or how to fake it enough to get by in one. My personal guess is that there are a lot of pseudo-Catholics like dh and I. In fact, most of our friends and relatives fall in that category. I'm pretty sure the true believers have sussed that out, because we've never, ever been quizzed about our beliefs when we fulfilled the requisites for the kids' baptisms or first communions. They make it very, very easy for non-believers to go with the flow to keep their numbers up. I've seen this in the US, but it's blatant in Venezuela. I've no complaints, it makes our choice easier, but it also makes me wonder how sincere most church members really are in their beliefs? My experience contrasts so completely with Izzy's, I'm curious who's closer to the norm.

[Guest inoubliable]

so, why are we discussing religion on an atheism thread? I thought the whole point was so that we could talk about stuff OTHER than religion. i honestly find this all rather boring and, you know, annoying. I thought we'd just be talking about homeschooling kids in a secular way or something.

 

 

I thought we were talking about some challenges to living as an atheist. Religion is a non-issue for some, sure. I think the recent BSA thread got things started down this path. I've posted several times about conventions going on, bills being proposed, and documentaries. We've discussed bigotry and places to live that are more accepting of non-theists. At the beginning of the thread was some good stuff about secular curricula.

 

I'm sorry you got bored with the group. I didn't start it to talk only about secular homeschooling. If there is something you wanted to bring up, please do.

[Rosie_0801]

The reason for talking about religion at the moment is because it is impossible to talk about how to get rid of it without talking about it. Some here think religion should be dismantled entirely. The best way to do that is to remove the need for it and you can't remove the need without identifying what those needs are.

 

 

 

I would like to see more Humanist communities, to be honest. Social meetings can be fun, especially with people who share your interests. No doubt about it. I've proposed things in my own community, trying to get secular humanists and atheists together for gatherings that actually get us involved in our communities. No dice. If there wasn't such a stigma about being out of the atheist closet in this country, maybe I'd get a bigger bite. No reason why a community can't grow and prosper by doing secular activities that benefit the community.

 

 

 

 

Other than the closet issue, what other obstacles do you think there was? What sort of stuff did you want to do?

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Other than the closet issue, what other obstacles do you think there was? What sort of stuff did you want to do?

 

 

 

One of the biggest obstacles, IMO, is that area churches seem to have a huge presence here. As in, church is the place to go for help. It doesn't mean you're going to get help, but that's where you go. Even if you don't think you're hitting up a church for something in your community, a church is behind (financially) the organization you're going to. So, church presence definitely and money. There are finite resources even with the biggest churches, but secular volunteer groups are often turned away anyway.

 

I had proposed things like applying to "adopt" a local stretch of highway. No one wanted to mess with it because "the churches had it taken care of". :glare: I suggested getting together a group of people to donate supplies and money to provide a local food bank or soup kitchen with food and/or ready to serve meals. Before we could move forward with anything, area churches had stepped in (and the people in charge said that they would have loved for more food/money/volunteers but that the church pretty much said that they would take care of it all). The only thing I've ever gotten off the ground here was a group to get together backpacks full of school supplies to send to school children displaced by Hurricane Katrina. We got about 70 packs together and shipped off. I've gotten nothing off the ground since then.

 

 

I'd like to see a see an openly secular community cleaning up parks and neighborhoods, providing grants to area fire departments and police departments, sponsoring book drives, providing a place for big neighborhood dinners, community gardens, neighborhood watch groups. Of course, I'm glad to see secular forces striving for political power, but I think that a strong community presence is something to develop.

[Izzy]

Yes, Austin is very cool and diverse. We have T-shirts and bumper stickers that say Keep Austin Weird. :D

 

As for religion, I'm not interested in wiping it all away. Same with superstition. If someone thinks lighting a candle will bring good luck then I really don't see the harm. Now, if you tell someone else they have to do that to get into heaven or avoid hell, then I have a problem. I think any religion that produces fear or intolerance is damaging and might as well be cults. Those religions are not okay and they infringe on peoples' rights, including the children that are indoctrinated into them.

 

You'll hear me talk about hell a lot because that's what stuck with me as a child. Hell was a place of torment with fire and weeping & knashing of teeth. Even though it wasn't brought up a lot was still terrified of it. I honestly think if you're teaching your child that hell exists and that there is an all knowing god who knows everything you're thinking, then that's child abuse.

 

I would like to study Buddhism and meditation so that might put me at a little spiritual. Although I don't think it is spiritual. I do think we can connect to ourselves and other people on a deeper level but that there is probably a scientific reason for that we haven't figured out yet. I remember being told that crystals were new age and from the debil. But now we have amber teething necklaces and know that some stones really do have healing properties. Same for nature. Much of our modern medicine is derived from healing plants.

 

I'm going to link up The Center for Inquiry. We have a very active group here which helps people form a community of non believers. :D

[Izzy]

This is our local branch. You can see what all is going on and check for branches near you. I think you can also start your own branch also.

 

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/austin

[lailasmum]

 

I would like to see more Humanist communities, to be honest. Social meetings can be fun, especially with people who share your interests. No doubt about it. I've proposed things in my own community, trying to get secular humanists and atheists together for gatherings that actually get us involved in our communities. No dice. If there wasn't such a stigma about being out of the atheist closet in this country, maybe I'd get a bigger bite. No reason why a community can't grow and prosper by doing secular activities that benefit the community.

 

I am suprised there is such a stigma to being openly atheist where you live because there totally isn't here. I think the the churches here aren't very wealthy or strong in their involvement in the community though . They are usually pretty poor and run down from what I can tell and aren't offering loads of opportunities for people. As for groups here, there are lots of things like transition groups and peace groups, kids groups, nature groups etc.. that are very active and not run by churches.There is a local food bank which has a wide section of supporters, they do include local churches but includes lots of other supporters so it doesn't appear to be much to do with the church.

[chiguirre]

 

I would like to study Buddhism and meditation so that might put me at a little spiritual.

 

 

I've been listening to a Teaching Company class on Mindfulness this week. It's a very thorough secular introduction to the practice, although the professor occasionally mentions Buddhism or Christianity he doesn't assume his audience is any particular religion. Here's a link:

 

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=1933

 

I got it from the Harris County Public Library, so you might be able to get it from yours too.

[Izzy]

 

 

I've been listening to a Teaching Company class on Mindfulness this week. It's a very thorough secular introduction to the practice, although the professor occasionally mentions Buddhism or Christianity he doesn't assume his audience is any particular religion. Here's a link:

 

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=1933

 

I got it from the Harris County Public Library, so you might be able to get it from yours too.

 

Thanks! :)

[dbmamaz]

yeah, i guess i grew up with a religion that didnt feel oppressive to athiests, I have no interest in dismantling religion, and i never had a deconversion from anything. i see plenty of non-church organizations doing things, and i also belong to a UU church, totally accepting of secular humanists . . . with the understanding that we are also totally accepting of christians. we each take our own path and respect that. i guess even among athiests i dont fit in

[Izzy]

yeah, i guess i grew up with a religion that didnt feel oppressive to athiests, I have no interest in dismantling religion, and i never had a deconversion from anything. i see plenty of non-church organizations doing things, and i also belong to a UU church, totally accepting of secular humanists . . . with the understanding that we are also totally accepting of christians. we each take our own path and respect that. i guess even among athiests i dont fit in

 

I don't think there is such a thing as fitting in with athiests. Athiesm isn't a belief system so there are no requirements of how to be the right type of athiest. Hell, I define myself as Agnostic. Athiests are athiests because they are free thinking which means every single person will be different. One of the books I'm reading said trying to organize Athiests is like trying to herd cats. The very nature of an Athiest is they think for themselves so there is a huge variety of personalities. I wouldn't want it any other way. :)

[amo_mea_filiis.]

 

 

I've always thought that the Christian god must be a bit of a perv. He (and they) are very very concerned with what one does with their bits and pieces. Abortion - nope. Ghey seks - nope. "Self love" (what?? LOL. someone else called it that on another thread.) - nope. Seks before marriage - nope.

 

Why does anyone care where someone puts their gigglestick?? Why does anyone care if someone doesn't prefer a gigglestick? It's all so weird and icky that they think about it enough to have rules and sermons and books and lectures and punishments and interviews and.... WEIRD.

 

 

Gigglesticks and the great spelling had me hysterical! Lol.

 

My mother used to say that self love was seks with the devil, and my response was always that the devil knew best! :-)

[suzybluecheese]

I would like to say that though I have not posted on this thread until now, I have enjoyed some of the topics it has covered. As someone in a sort of spiritual limbo, I do like the OP's idea of no bashing and having a place for honest and thoughtful questions.

 

Anyway, hello all. Thank you for starting this group.

[Guest inoubliable]

The very nature of an Athiest is they think for themselves so there is a huge variety of personalities. I wouldn't want it any other way. :)

 

This.

 

yeah, i guess i grew up with a religion that didnt feel oppressive to athiests, I have no interest in dismantling religion, and i never had a deconversion from anything. i see plenty of non-church organizations doing things, and i also belong to a UU church, totally accepting of secular humanists . . . with the understanding that we are also totally accepting of christians. we each take our own path and respect that. i guess even among athiests i dont fit in

 

I happen to think you fit in just fine here and I'm glad to have you. I hope you decide to stay. You have a very different experience with regards to your atheism and I think that is an asset in a group such as this.

[Guest inoubliable]

I would like to say that though I have not posted on this thread until now, I have enjoyed some of the topics it has covered. As someone in a sort of spiritual limbo, I do like the OP's idea of no bashing and having a place for honest and thoughtful questions.

 

Anyway, hello all. Thank you for starting this group.

 

Welcome aboard! Feel free to throw out any questions you want. :)

[dbmamaz]

thanks, maybe i'm just being gloomy. that happens. way too often.

[Laura Corin]

yeah, i guess i grew up with a religion that didnt feel oppressive to athiests, I have no interest in dismantling religion, and i never had a deconversion from anything. i see plenty of non-church organizations doing things, and i also belong to a UU church, totally accepting of secular humanists . . . with the understanding that we are also totally accepting of christians. we each take our own path and respect that. i guess even among athiests i dont fit in

 

You'd fit in fine in the UK. Despite a few celebrity counter-examples, most British atheists are very laid back about it.

 

Laura

[MistyMountain]

I just read the boy scouts thread. It is hard to hear what people think of atheists and people who are not heterosexual. It is hard to understand why they want a organization to not be accepting of all people even though it wouldn't affect the ability of their group to be non inclusive.

 

I always to take the you attract more flies with sugar than vinegar approach but in some venues I just don't debate. I am always polite and kind and don't do personal attacks on either people or groups. I usually do speak my mind. I think most people will not be persuaded. Most people do not like information that goes against something they hold as a value either due to religion or personal experience or whatever. I put information out there knowing most people will not really come around to it. There may be some people who were on the fence or who are ready to really hear something and that all you can hope.

 

My daughter is a girl scout. In my area there is nothing comparable for boys except boy scouts. We have camp fire but it is an after school program for working parents and they aren't even that outdoorsy. I want my son to be able to do boy scouts either through the school or it would be cool if the UU church sponsored a troop. I wish they would change the stance on atheists too. We are the most un liked group out there. People have told me I am doomed for the hell fires for not believing. I know people believe that but still. I wish people were more tolerant. I hate not knowing how people will react when they find out or how they assume we have no morals. Atheists actually make up a smaller population of prisoners than the numbers in real life. There is nothing to be afraid of. I can see how people want to be in a group of people who have similar beliefs but why do they care what people in other groups do.

[albeto]

I can see how people want to be in a group of people who have similar beliefs but why do they care what people in other groups do.

 

Because if you understand a thing to be "very dangerous" by its very nature, compassion would compel you to protect the innocent. If everybody suffers, it's not worth keeping quiet about.

[suzybluecheese]

Thanks, KK. I rarely posts because there is usually someone else posting who expresses my thoughts better than I do.

 

First, I would like to make a comment about the Texas Board of Education. There once was a thread asking if any of us homeschool for political reasons. I thought about saying, "YES! I do because I'm from Texas. We have politicians who have no business in education deciding what will and will not be taught to our children." Thanks to us, the rest of the country has text books that say that fossils are "very old" rather than give an actual date that scientists have proven. And I *think* "we" have decided that Thomas Jefferson isn't so important. This may be on the Revisionists, but I just can't bring myself to watch it.

 

Also, I think I understand where Rosie is coming from. Though I come from a Christian family, I never felt that comfort - that "blessed assurance" - that I thought I was suppose to have from attending church and believing in a god. I felt more scared. But I long for that feeling of fellowship, customs, and rituals. At Christmas, when I see a manager set up, I think of how wonderful it must be to hold this belief in magic(?). But I suppose that it would be just the same as if I believed that Hogwarts existed. Anyway, I guess now I am trying to find some magical thinking in my own family's customs and traditions.

 

Okay. I'm going to stop my ramblings here, but it has been cathartic!

[MistyMountain]

I know they play up on fear. The whole apocalypse and signs from above is a very convenient way to keep people in line. It is hard to fathom certain things when you think strictly rationally and so it is very hard to grapple how people can feel so negatively towards certain things that are actually neutral as far as morality goes. I have become much more accepting as time goes on but there are aspects of religion that are very intolerant. The parts that bother me are the feelings towards people that are not heterosexual, patriarchy, the feelings towards those that don't share the same religious beliefs and the selfish aspects. If you realize that there are explanations for the bad things that happen then you can do something about them. If it is all related to some vengeful God punishing the people who don't follow the right rules then you can't see the root cause. People are not going to go in droves to atheism and that is fine. I don't mind religion. It is just when it interferes with rationality with regards to moral issues it becomes a problem. I grew up where people had all kinds of beliefs and it was ok. I love going to a UU church where my kids can hear about everything in a non biased way. I like accepting people for who they are and accepting that we all have different beliefs. The problem comes with the groups that are intolerant.

[albeto]

I don't mind religion. It is just when it interferes with rationality with regards to moral issues it becomes a problem.

 

 

I can't think of an example in which it doesn't. A rational belief isn't a religious belief simply because religion is based on faith (belief without reason), and rational is based on reason. Where religion combines with rational thought, it is not religious. For example, churches who embrace LGBTQ people and their needs do so for rational reasons. Those who reject LGBTQ people and their needs do so for religious reasons, simply because there are no rational reasons to do so. At least, I'm unaware of any rational reason to promote the now reasonably defunct idea that homosexuality endangers society. I am also unaware of any religious idea that has value rationally. The examples Rosie shared are secular ideals traditionally incorporated into religious frameworks. The ideas themselves do not require religious reasons.

[albeto]

double post

[Guest inoubliable]

A few interesting articles I ran across today.

 

http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2013/01/31/one-in-four-americans-think-god-helps-decide-the-outcome-of-football-games/related/

Title says it all. One in four thinks the Super Bowl is decided by god, eh? :blink:

 

http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/31/16764995-these-award-winning-visuals-turn-solid-science-into-crowd-pleasing-art?lite

Very cool science stuff! Graphics, videos, some apps and games.

 

Also. The pastor who made the sh*tty comment about tipping and ended up with her comment going viral? Called up the Applebees after she was outed on the internet and demanded that the waitress who uploaded the pic to Reddit be fired. She's been fired. The pastor was upset because she's now embarrassed and it has reflected badly on her to the rest of her...15 member church. I'll be chewing on that for a bit while I enjoy my hot tea and broccoli pasta salad snack.

[Izzy]

 

 

Because if you understand a thing to be "very dangerous" by its very nature, compassion would compel you to protect the innocent. If everybody suffers, it's not worth keeping quiet about.

 

 

What I don't get is debt is talked more about in the bible than homosexuality. So why not discriminate against people with debt? That would wipe out the majority of believers. lol They pick and choose who they want to hate. It's sickening. :/

[Izzy]

A few interesting articles I ran across today.

 

http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2013/01/31/one-in-four-americans-think-god-helps-decide-the-outcome-of-football-games/related/

Title says it all. One in four thinks the Super Bowl is decided by god, eh? :blink:

 

http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/31/16764995-these-award-winning-visuals-turn-solid-science-into-crowd-pleasing-art?lite

Very cool science stuff! Graphics, videos, some apps and games.

 

Also. The pastor who made the sh*tty comment about tipping and ended up with her comment going viral? Called up the Applebees after she was outed on the internet and demanded that the waitress who uploaded the pic to Reddit be fired. She's been fired. The pastor was upset because she's now embarrassed and it has reflected badly on her to the rest of her...15 member church. I'll be chewing on that for a bit while I enjoy my hot tea and broccoli pasta salad snack.

 

 

Just another example of hate in the name of god. It's kind of funny that she literally chalked up her not tipping to god. :p

 

Thanks for the science link...going to look at it closer in a little while.

[Izzy]

Thanks, KK. I rarely posts because there is usually someone else posting who expresses my thoughts better than I do.

 

First, I would like to make a comment about the Texas Board of Education. There once was a thread asking if any of us homeschool for political reasons. I thought about saying, "YES! I do because I'm from Texas. We have politicians who have no business in education deciding what will and will not be taught to our children." Thanks to us, the rest of the country has text books that say that fossils are "very old" rather than give an actual date that scientists have proven. And I *think* "we" have decided that Thomas Jefferson isn't so important. This may be on the Revisionists, but I just can't bring myself to watch it.

 

Also, I think I understand where Rosie is coming from. Though I come from a Christian family, I never felt that comfort - that "blessed assurance" - that I thought I was suppose to have from attending church and believing in a god. I felt more scared. But I long for that feeling of fellowship, customs, and rituals. At Christmas, when I see a manager set up, I think of how wonderful it must be to hold this belief in magic(?). But I suppose that it would be just the same as if I believed that Hogwarts existed. Anyway, I guess now I am trying to find some magical thinking in my own family's customs and traditions.

 

Okay. I'm going to stop my ramblings here, but it has been cathartic!

 

 

Aack! I'm from TX too. Are we to blame for the textbooks? My brother had mentioned something about TX trying to take Thomas Jefferson out, presumably because of his beliefs. It would also explain why I made straight A's and don't know a thing about science.

[Guest inoubliable]

Just another example of hate in the name of god. It's kind of funny that she literally chalked up her not tipping to god. :p

 

 

 

I especially liked how the 10% she tithes to her church, is literally 10% she gives back to herself since it's her church. Hmm. Tax evasion? Slick.

[Guest inoubliable]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/tipping-pastor-apologizes-687234

 

No-tipping pastor link.

[Guest inoubliable]

Aack! I'm from TX too. Are we to blame for the textbooks?

 

Yes!!

 

[Jennifer3141]

What I don't get is debt is talked more about in the bible than homosexuality. So why not discriminate against people with debt? That would wipe out the majority of believers. lol They pick and choose who they want to hate. It's sickening. :/

 

 

Awesomefully funny point. I'm paying cash for my house. With I could kick the Xtians across the street to the curb. Clearly, I'm better!! :lol:

[4kidlets4me]

http://www.thesmokin...ologizes-687234

 

No-tipping pastor link.

 

 

I'm confused why the waitress was fired.