SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[Izzy]

I know, I know - it's a Big Game night.

 

DH and I are settling in to watch this, though, and I figured I'd give it a share in case anyone was interested. :)

 

 

"Losing our Religion - Raising Humanist Children"

 

 

I started to watch this but realized it's an hour long so I'm saving for later. I like to topic so far!

[Izzy]

 

 

It's nice to think people won't discriminate due to a biological reason for something, but I believe skin color is inherited and people discrimiate plenty on that. And gender, and body size (to a point), and so on, and so on...

 

 

True. And here I am trying to be rational. I just finished Why Evolution is True and Coyne writes about a conversation he had with a creationist about evolution. He explained evolution and the creationist said evolution made perfect sense and there is no denying the evidence. It's all there. BUT he still wasn't going to believe it. It's a conscious decision to stay in cognitive dissonance. I don't get it.

[Audrey]

True. And here I am trying to be rational. I just finished Why Evolution is True and Coyne writes about a conversation he had with a creationist about evolution. He explained evolution and the creationist said evolution made perfect sense and there is no denying the evidence. It's all there. BUT he still wasn't going to believe it. It's a conscious decision to stay in cognitive dissonance. I don't get it.

 

 

I don't know that we should even TRY to get it. It's devoid of any reason. This is the kind of thinking that comes from the same kind of people who also sit around wringing their hands because they're so sad about all those poor non-christian little children who "may never know the Lord." :blink:

[Audrey]

Has anyone used any of the CK 12 books for science? I have a bunch of them in my Kindle account, and have browsed the website, but haven't really spent enough time trying to figure out if I like them. I'm still not clear on the whole Flex Book thing. For those of you with younger children, I believe CK 12 is middle and high school only.

 

I've been looking at these for science supplement. I'm not sure if I would use it as a straight full course. I may change my mind on that, though. I'm still open to high school planning. :)

[LucyStoner]

I just finished reading "Write These Laws On Your Children: Inside the World of Conservative Christian Homeschooling" and I thought of this thread when a couple of those interviewed stated that they thought schools were basically "secular humanist churches". In other words KKinVA, they got your number. You may not be able to dodge the religion question with that answer much longer, LOL.

 

I really dislike the degree to which homeschooling is identified in the public's mind as being so closely aligned with not just Christianity, but one brand of Christianity. Plenty of homeschoolers are either not religious or not conservative Christians.

[LucyStoner]

I just put the first of the Story of Science books by Joy Hakim on hold at the library. I'd looked at it before but thought he was too young. Now I think it would be a good fit.

[Guest inoubliable]

In other words KKinVA, they got your number. You may not be able to dodge the religion question with that answer much longer, LOL.

 

 

Crap.

[Guest inoubliable]

I just put the first of the Story of Science books by Joy Hakim on hold at the library. I'd looked at it before but thought he was too young. Now I think it would be a good fit.

 

 

I am so very very jealous of all of you with amazing libraries! :( Our sucks so horribly. We find stuff there, sometimes, but not once have we found something on our list. Everything has to be ordered from Amazon. I'm going to have a HUGE pile of stuff to get rid of when I'm done with homeschooling.

[lailasmum]

 

I am so very very jealous of all of you with amazing libraries! :( Our sucks so horribly. We find stuff there, sometimes, but not once have we found something on our list. Everything has to be ordered from Amazon. I'm going to have a HUGE pile of stuff to get rid of when I'm done with homeschooling.

 

Our library is dreadful too. Really small and not part of a good larger system. I rarely use it.

[LaxMom]

 

 

True. And here I am trying to be rational. I just finished Why Evolution is True and Coyne writes about a conversation he had with a creationist about evolution. He explained evolution and the creationist said evolution made perfect sense and there is no denying the evidence. It's all there. BUT he still wasn't going to believe it. It's a conscious decision to stay in cognitive dissonance. I don't get it.

 

Actually, it's a way to relieve cognitive dissonance. He was presented with something rational that challenges a belief that is part of his self-identity, so he just chooses to ignore evidence and stick with his original stance.

 

Great book on the topic: "Mistake Were Made, but Not by Me". (Aronson, Tavris)

[Guest inoubliable]

My local library stinks too, but I pay $50 to use a neighboring library that is great. It's so worth it!

 

 

You know what? I'm going to see if I can do that. Northern VA has a nice library system. Thanks for the idea!

[delaney]

 

You know what? I'm going to see if I can do that. Northern VA has a nice library system. Thanks for the idea!

 

We have a good one here in Fauquier and so does Prince William

[chiguirre]

You might even be lucky and not have to pay. In Texas, we can get a card at any public library for free because they all have reciprocal agreements. We are lucky to have a truly awesome library system in our county. I didn't expect that when we moved here since Texas is so vocal about small government and self reliance, but the secret is that municipal services are very good. It was a pleasant surprise!

[Mom-ninja.]

I really dislike the degree to which homeschooling is identified in the public's mind as being so closely aligned with not just Christianity, but one brand of Christianity. Plenty of homeschoolers are either not religious or not conservative Christians.

 

After I knew a woman for awhile she said to me, "When I found out you home school I thought you were one of those freaky hardcore Christians. But, you're normal. You buy your clothes and don't walk around carrying a Bible." I laughed and replied, "Well, I only wear my hand sewn conservative clothes when my dh is around and as for carrying a Bible.....I don't need to cause it's all committed to memory." She laughed and said, "No, seriously. When I first found out you home school I was leery around you. I was sure you were going to start bringing Jesus into every conversation. But now that I know you I know that you are normal. I didn't know there were people who home schooled that weren't hard core Christian." I told her it was rare to come across an atheist home schooler but we're out there, and as for being normal, I don't claim to be. :cool:

[Lady Florida.]

they're so sad about all those poor non-christian little children who "may never know the Lord." :blink:

 

 

You mean our children? :rolleyes:

 

 

I really dislike the degree to which homeschooling is identified in the public's mind as being so closely aligned with not just Christianity, but one brand of Christianity. Plenty of homeschoolers are either not religious or not conservative Christians.

 

 

I can't count the number of times I said, "But we're not religious homeschoolers." after having told someone we homeschool. Even if they don't ask I say it, because I want people to know secular homeschoolers exist. A friend from college was leery of friending me on facebook when she heard we were homeschooling.

[Izzy]

You might even be lucky and not have to pay. In Texas, we can get a card at any public library for free because they all have reciprocal agreements. We are lucky to have a truly awesome library system in our county. I didn't expect that when we moved here since Texas is so vocal about small government and self reliance, but the secret is that municipal services are very good. It was a pleasant surprise!

 

We live in a MUD district so I have to pay $25 a year for our local library. But I can get a free one anywhere else in Austin. I just don't want to drive that far so I pay the $25. :D

[Izzy]

 

 

You mean our children? :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

I can't count the number of times I said, "But we're not religious homeschoolers." after having told someone we homeschool. Even if they don't ask I say it, because I want people to know secular homeschoolers exist. A friend from college was leery of friending me on facebook when she heard we were homeschooling.

 

My son's first grade teacher started praying with me during a school conference. I couldn't figure out why but then I remembered I had 4 kids and homeschool so I MUST be a Christian. lol.

 

I also try to let people know I''m not one of those homeschoolers. It helps when I tell them my oldest has LD's and they understand that. We need to get the word out that there are plenty of normal secular homeschoolers out there!

[LaxMom]

You might even be lucky and not have to pay. In Texas, we can get a card at any public library for free because they all have reciprocal agreements. We are lucky to have a truly awesome library system in our county. I didn't expect that when we moved here since Texas is so vocal about small government and self reliance, but the secret is that municipal services are very good. It was a pleasant surprise!

True in MD, too. In fact, I can use my local library card at any county library, and many private ones that are part of the system. There are perks (higher checkout limit, etc) to having a card for the specific library, though.

 

[Jennifer3141]

 

I am so very very jealous of all of you with amazing libraries! :( Our sucks so horribly. We find stuff there, sometimes, but not once have we found something on our list. Everything has to be ordered from Amazon. I'm going to have a HUGE pile of stuff to get rid of when I'm done with homeschooling.

 

Ours is mediocre, KK. They have some homeschooling stuff but an awful lot of it is Xtian because the local homeschool co-ops are both Xtian. So for HO history, they had NONE of the supplemental fun books but an awful lot of them were $2 or less on either amazon or abe books. It's hard for me to resist getting a stack of those but then we read them and there they sit in a pile.

 

Kleine, your comments about not being Xtian homeschoolers cracked me up. I've had that exact conversation - my favorite was with the Planned Parenthood people. DD was asking a TON of science type questions about reproduction so during my last pap, I picked the brain of my NP. She looked at me funny and said, "I'm confused. Are you homeschooling for Jesus?" She was hysterical.

[chiguirre]

 

I don't know where you're at, but I remember that Harris County had an excellent library system. There's one in Bear Creek, near Houston, that I could easily spend an entire day in.

 

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! I love HCPL. Our local branch moved to a green-design building set back in the piney woods and it's just lovely.

[LucyStoner]

 

I am so very very jealous of all of you with amazing libraries! :( Our sucks so horribly. We find stuff there, sometimes, but not once have we found something on our list. Everything has to be ordered from Amazon. I'm going to have a HUGE pile of stuff to get rid of when I'm done with homeschooling.

 

I am really fortunate in the library department to have access to the Seattle Public Library System and the separate and quite amazing King County Library System. There is one 2 blocks from my home and both systems will send any books to the branch of your choice. They also have great story-times and private rooms with whiteboards I can access when I need to move homeschooling out of home to save my mind. No extra charge for either system. Recently, the Seattle libraries opened all branches on Sundays again after previous budget cuts. There is a big non-profit library foundation plus folks generally support the library levy.

 

I also have access to the collections at the University of Washington library. It is like book heaven up in here. I should shut up before I get stoned to death...

[LucyStoner]

I've definitely had people look me up and down with my nose piercing and casual Seattle clothing sensibilities mixed with grrl punk band shirts and say "You don't look like a homeschooler." It goes to the things described in Applebee's America, about how most often people can get a sense of your political viewpoints based on unrelated consumer choices.

 

I've thought about printing my own line of t-shirts. "This is what a homeschooler looks like."

[dbmamaz]

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner! I love HCPL. Our local branch moved to a green-design building set back in the piney woods and it's just lovely.

 

Excuse me, but HCPL stands for HENRICO county public library. and my library system is awesome! well, they dont have everything, but there are like a dozen libraries i can request books from online, and pick up at my local branch which is 3 miles from my house. i get emails notifying me 2 days before books are due and i can renew on line too. i love my library!

[PinkInTheBlue]

Can

[PinkInTheBlue]

Can I rant here, please? Pretty please? Because I can't talk honestly and freely anywhere else in my life but with my like-minded husband.

 

This poor little 5 year old boy has been held hostage in a tiny, one-roomed, underground bunker since Tuesday or Wednesday last week. We have no idea what he additionally experienced today as FBI stormed the bunker, killed the guy and rescued the boy.

 

Anyway, my local Facebook is jam packed with "thank God" and "God answered prayer" and I'm biting a hole right through my tongue! Where was God when this guy stormed this bus and shot the innocent bus driver who was protecting his kids? Where was God all these days this little guy has been stuck down there? Where was he when this guy decided to do this? It's things like this that continue to push me further and further from any chance of a god.

 

P.S. Please, this is a JAWM. I hope I don't upset you guys. I'm just busting at the seams with frustration.

[Audrey]

Can I rant here, please? Pretty please? Because I can't talk honestly and freely anywhere else in my life but with my like-minded husband.

 

This poor little 5 year old boy has been held hostage in a tiny, one-roomed, underground bunker since Tuesday or Wednesday last week. We have no idea what he additionally experienced today as FBI stormed the bunker, killed the guy and rescued the boy.

 

Anyway, my local Facebook is jam packed with "thank God" and "God answered prayer" and I'm biting a hole right through my tongue! Where was God when this guy stormed this bus and shot the innocent bus driver who was protecting his kids? Where was God all these days this little guy has been stuck down there? Where was he when this guy decided to do this? It's things like this that continue to push me further and further from any chance of a god.

 

P.S. Please, this is a JAWM. I hope I don't upset you guys. I'm just busting at the seams with frustration.

 

 

 

I understand your frustration. I think, though, that if you can take a breath and take a step back from it, you will see that attributing the actions of people to the christian god's will is one of those empty, knee-jerk and remarkably erroneous responses that people toss out there because they don't know what else to say.

 

I am sure that many people are pushed away from the christian god by the claims of his follower's that actions on earth, committed by people, are acts of the christian god, or his will. However, they are just hollow comments. No gods need apply. It was simply some people doing things that some people do -- good and bad, both.

[chiguirre]

 

Anyway, my local Facebook is jam packed with "thank God" and "God answered prayer" and I'm biting a hole right through my tongue! Where was God when this guy stormed this bus and shot the innocent bus driver who was protecting his kids? Where was God all these days this little guy has been stuck down there? Where was he when this guy decided to do this? It's things like this that continue to push me further and further from any chance of a god.

 

P.S. Please, this is a JAWM. I hope I don't upset you guys. I'm just busting at the seams with frustration.

 

I'm sure deep down the FB posters have thought that too. It's a pretty obvious observation. But, they're not ready to give up the comfort of their belief. Try not to let it get to you.

 

:grouphug:

[Izzy]

Can I rant here, please? Pretty please? Because I can't talk honestly and freely anywhere else in my life but with my like-minded husband.

 

This poor little 5 year old boy has been held hostage in a tiny, one-roomed, underground bunker since Tuesday or Wednesday last week. We have no idea what he additionally experienced today as FBI stormed the bunker, killed the guy and rescued the boy.

 

Anyway, my local Facebook is jam packed with "thank God" and "God answered prayer" and I'm biting a hole right through my tongue! Where was God when this guy stormed this bus and shot the innocent bus driver who was protecting his kids? Where was God all these days this little guy has been stuck down there? Where was he when this guy decided to do this? It's things like this that continue to push me further and further from any chance of a god.

 

P.S. Please, this is a JAWM. I hope I don't upset you guys. I'm just busting at the seams with frustration.

 

 

I totally understand. I deleted people that were saying the school shooting happened because we took god out of school. These weren't even crazy fundies either. They were regular Christians who really think this. That was the point where I denounced my Christianity and said I was agnostic. It had been a long time coming but that was my AHA moment when I knew I couldn't be in the same category as these people.

 

Anyways, I don't mind the thank god posts but find it odd that these same people will thank god for finding their car keys or getting their child a doctors appt. I find it very self centered.

 

I'm SO happy the little boy was found! I hope he's able to get past the trauma of it. :(

[Guest inoubliable]

Blech. That annoys me, too. Like when someone comes out of surgery and the family members/patient thank the wrong "person". If I were a surgeon with hundreds of thousands in student loans and decades of education and experience behind me, I'd be super annoyed if my patient survived a brain tumor due to my skill and expertise in the operating room and medical innovation in general and yet thanked...something else.

[Audrey]

Blech. That annoys me, too. Like when someone comes out of surgery and the family members/patient thank the wrong "person". If I were a surgeon with hundreds of thousands in student loans and decades of education and experience behind me, I'd be super annoyed if my patient survived a brain tumor due to my skill and expertise in the operating room and medical innovation in general and yet thanked...something else.

 

Story for you:

 

When my mother in law was battling cancer, she had to have a very risky surgery. The doctor who did the surgery was quite old and one of my SILs was very negative about the whole thing -- vocally so, even when the rest of us would tell her that we'd prefer to keep hope alive along with MIL.

 

Anyway, when the surgeon came out and told us the surgery was successful, SIL bursts out with "Praise Jesus, let's all thank blessed Jesus!" I very clearly, loudly said, "I believe it's pronounced Dr. Jacobs."

 

Dr. Jacobs got a good laugh out of that one. ;)

[Guest inoubliable]

Anyway, when the surgeon came out and told us the surgery was successful, SIL bursts out with "Praise Jesus, let's all thank blessed Jesus!" I very clearly, loudly said, "I believe it's pronounced Dr. Jacobs."

 

Dr. Jacobs got a good laugh out of that one. ;)

 

I just laughed so hard I woke up DH! LOL.

 

I'm going to have to borrow that line!

[LucyStoner]

Extreme case of credit to a deity vs. medicine and human efforts:

 

My mother's crazy criminal (fundie) Christian-in-name-only mother (who I don't claim as my grandmother) needed to have heart surgery. She was convinced that when the surgeons opened her up, they would find that the "Lord had blessed her with a new heart." She said this over and over and over to anyone who would listen and many who would not. I was like, look lady, accepting the premise that there is a Lord, he already gave you one heart and you completely blew it with years of bad living over the objections of your doctors. You get one, count it, ONE heart (barring a transplant thanks to science.) If anyone gets a do-over, there would be zero justice in it being her anyway. Well, the day of the surgery rolls around. They opened her up, performed a very very complicated procedure which is the only reason the old biddy is alive today. She was truly shocked to wake up and find out they had to do the procedure and that they did not in fact find a healthy "new" heart in place of her hanging on by a thread heart. She now maintains that the Lord gave her the new heart after all but the surgeons couldn't see it/know it so they "think" they did the procedure. There is no point in even raising the possibility that science and hard work should get any credit. The woman is 47,000 steps to the wrong side of evil (I won't start but as a highlight her abuse caused my mother to be permanently physically disabled and that's like the least of her crimes) so the idea that there is a higher power batting for her when she has never even acknowledged her criminality (after prison to boot) is just so far beyond...beyond. There are no words.

[delaney]

Extreme case of credit to a deity vs. medicine and human efforts:

 

My mother's crazy criminal (fundie) Christian-in-name-only mother (who I don't claim as my grandmother) needed to have heart surgery. She was convinced that when the surgeons opened her up, they would find that the "Lord had blessed her with a new heart." She said this over and over and over to anyone who would listen and many who would not. I was like, look lady, accepting the premise that there is a Lord, he already gave you one heart and you completely blew it with years of bad living over the objections of your doctors. You get one, count it, ONE heart (barring a transplant thanks to science.) If anyone gets a do-over, there would be zero justice in it being her anyway. Well, the day of the surgery rolls around. They opened her up, performed a very very complicated procedure which is the only reason the old biddy is alive today. She was truly shocked to wake up and find out they had to do the procedure and that they did not in fact find a healthy "new" heart in place of her hanging on by a thread heart. She now maintains that the Lord gave her the new heart after all but the surgeons couldn't see it/know it so they "think" they did the procedure. There is no point in even raising the possibility that science and hard work should get any credit. The woman is 47,000 steps to the wrong side of evil (I won't start but as a highlight her abuse caused my mother to be permanently physically disabled and that's like the least of her crimes) so the idea that there is a higher power batting for her when she has never even acknowledged her criminality (after prison to boot) is just so far beyond...beyond. There are no words.

 

Right so god had time for her heart and not for the children of Newtown? That is my point with all these great claims. How can someone believe is a god that picks and chooses that way? Oh free will blah blah blah. There is always a convenient answer with xtians.

[dbmamaz]

obviously your not-grandmother is seriously insane and has no idea of reality. the problem is there seems to be a lot of seriously insane people walking around pretending to be functioning human beings. hmm, in fact my daughter accuses me of that . .

[Izzy]

This is probably a little OT but I thought I'd post here anyway. I registered for school and submitted my FAFSA form yesterday! I'll probably get an associates from the community college and transfer to UT but I'm still trying to decide between computer science and computer information systems. :) :) :)

[Guest inoubliable]

Congratulations! That's really exciting. :)

[Guest inoubliable]

 

I'm so sick of hearing how God was locked out of the Newtown school and could not save the kids. Just this past week, our local paper had a letter about it in the form of a stupid poem to be sung to the tune of "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald".

 

 

I thought that ship had sailed (no pun intended). People are still saying that?! Loons.

[Izzy]

obviously your not-grandmother is seriously insane and has no idea of reality. the problem is there seems to be a lot of seriously insane people walking around pretending to be functioning human beings. hmm, in fact my daughter accuses me of that . .

 

A good question is at what point do religious beliefs cross over from just delusional to mentally ill. I feel like we have too much religious freedom. For example, I think the FLDS should all be dismantled and the leaders arrested but they get to hide behind religious freedom.

[Lady Florida.]

This is probably a little OT but I thought I'd post here anyway. I registered for school and submitted my FAFSA form yesterday! I'll probably get an associated from the community college and transfer to UT but I'm still trying to decide between computer science and computer information systems. :) :) :)

 

 

 

Congratulations!

 

Correct me if I'm wrong KK (since you're the one who started the group), but I don't think there's anything necessarily OT. After all, this is one place we won't credit a deity for any accomplishments of our members or good things that happen to us. :)

[Guest inoubliable]

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong KK (since you're the one who started the group), but I don't think there's anything necessarily OT. After all, this is one place we won't credit a deity for any accomplishments of our members or good things that happen to us. :)

 

 

Quite right! :)

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

This is probably a little OT but I thought I'd post here anyway. I registered for school and submitted my FAFSA form yesterday! I'll probably get an associates from the community college and transfer to UT but I'm still trying to decide between computer science and computer information systems. :) :) :)

 

 

Congrats! I'm at UT now . . . Actually RIGHT NOW I'm procrastinating as I have a paper due on Friday and haven't even put pen to paper.

 

SHHHH . . . Don't tell anyone. ;-)

 

 

[dbmamaz]

A good question is at what point do religious beliefs cross over from just delusional to mentally ill. I feel like we have too much religious freedom. For example, I think the FLDS should all be dismantled and the leaders arrested but they get to hide behind religious freedom.

Idk, but obviously believing that god had given you a new heart but the doctors couldnt see it so they THOUGHT they did a procedure but you know better .. . thats way over the line.

[Corraleno]

Where was God when this guy stormed this bus and shot the innocent bus driver who was protecting his kids? Where was God all these days this little guy has been stuck down there? Where was he when this guy decided to do this?

 

I've had this same conversation with my mother, sister, and BIL, so many times before I gave up and decided to just stop visiting them. You get what you pray for = God answered my prayer! You don't get what you pray for = God has other plans / works in mysterious ways / has even better things planned for you! Everything good that happens is proof of God's love; everything bad that happens is caused by people not believing or trusting in God and is proof of our evil, sinful nature and need for God. There's no way out of that loop and no way to argue against it.

 

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

I'm so sick of hearing how God was locked out of the Newtown school and could not save the kids.

 

And yet, he apparently not only has access to the Super Bowl (I'm sure ALL those players are devout Christians, right?) but he gets to pick the winner. :001_rolleyes:

 

My stepmother is a devout Catholic who has prayed every day of her adult life and she says the only thing she EVER asked God for was to keep her children safe. She's buried 3 kids, and she says she no longer believes that God listens to prayers. When she confessed this recently to an evangelical friend, the woman told her that God had answered her prayers — because her children are now safe in heaven with Jesus. She then told my stepmother that if she'd wanted God to keep her children alive, she should have specified that. So God is all-knowing and all-powerful, but you'd better run the wording of your prayers past a contract lawyer, so you don't get screwed on a technicality. :glare:

 

I feel so sorry for her, because she's believed deeply in this all her life, and when my sister died she was very comforted by the idea that she would see her again in heaven. But now that she's lost three kids, she's losing her faith — and with it her reason for living. She's pretty much given up and is just waiting to die. :(

 

Jackie

[Izzy]

 

 

Congrats! I'm at UT now . . . Actually RIGHT NOW I'm procrastinating as I have a paper due on Friday and haven't even put pen to paper.

 

SHHHH . . . Don't tell anyone. ;-)

 

Awesome! And your secret is safe with me. :D

[Izzy]

 

 

I've had this same conversation with my mother, sister, and BIL, so many times before I gave up and decided to just stop visiting them. You get what you pray for = God answered my prayer! You don't get what you pray for = God has other plans / works in mysterious ways / has even better things planned for you! Everything good that happens is proof of God's love; everything bad that happens is caused by people not believing or trusting in God and is proof of our evil, sinful nature and need for God. There's no way out of that loop and no way to argue against it.

 

 

Jackie

 

It really is a never ending loop. It makes zero sense that god just answered your prayer and gave you the extra money you needed on a tax return but some other praying mom just lost her child to cancer. But god works in mysterious ways and who are we to question god's will?

[Audrey]

Right so god had time for her heart and not for the children of Newtown? That is my point with all these great claims. How can someone believe is a god that picks and chooses that way? Oh free will blah blah blah. There is always a convenient answer with xtians.

 

 

 

It's really more like a "conditioned" answer. They are just defending themselves with conditioned responses they hear from their pastors, parents, other followers. It rarely has anything to do with a thoughtful defense of their faith. That is why you hear the same trite and pat answers from so many of them. It does get old, but then it's also quite ineffective in making any case for their cause, as you know.

 

It is actually interesting to converse with someone who is thoughtful in their defense of their god and faith. You don't hear the usual platitudes, hand-wringing and blind praise from them. Instead, you will get thoughtful discussions on how they interpret their personal faith in relation to what their holy books tell them. I am not just speaking of Christians here. I think that, as a group, they are sorely lacking in numbers of followers who have any introspection about their faith and religion. I have know a few rare exceptions though (2 on this board, in particular). On the other hand, I've had amazing discussions with Jews and Muslims that, while not enough to convert me ;), are still thought-provoking and intruiging.

[dbmamaz]

sorry about your stepmother, Jackie

[Izzy]

 

 

 

It's really more like a "conditioned" answer. They are just defending themselves with conditioned responses they hear from their pastors, parents, other followers. It rarely has anything to do with a thoughtful defense of their faith. That is why you hear the same trite and pat answers from so many of them. It does get old, but then it's also quite ineffective in making any case for their cause, as you know.

 

It is actually interesting to converse with someone who is thoughtful in their defense of their god and faith. You don't hear the usual platitudes, hand-wringing and blind praise from them. Instead, you will get thoughtful discussions on how they interpret their personal faith in relation to what their holy books tell them. I am not just speaking of Christians here. I think that, as a group, they are sorely lacking in numbers of followers who have any introspection about their faith and religion. I have know a few rare exceptions though (2 on this board, in particular). On the other hand, I've had amazing discussions with Jews and Muslims that, while not enough to convert me ;), are still thought-provoking and intruiging.

 

Very true.

 

I loved the Progressive Christianity group. After growing up with the conditioned responses, it was nice to talk to others that were really pondering their faith and coming to different conclusions on what they believe. I ended up coming to the conclusion that I just. didn't. believe but I came to that decision all on my own using my very own reason. I own my belief (or lack of) now. :)

[Rosie_0801]

 

I feel so sorry for her, because she's believed deeply in this all her life, and when my sister died she was very comforted by the idea that she would see her again in heaven. But now that she's lost three kids, she's losing her faith — and with it her reason for living. She's pretty much given up and is just waiting to die. :(

 

Jackie

 

:grouphug: 's to your stepmum. :(