SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers

[Joanne]

I don't remember Sophocles or Buddha starting out any teachings by calling people names.

 

Or Jesus. :laugh: Well, maybe he called some Zealots hypocrits.

 

I am enjoying this thread. The more I read it, the more I see how radically I have changed.

 

I actually agree that any "no homosexual" standpoint is bigotry. But in terms of discourse, Jennifer is right; they will tune out anything you say after the name calling.

[Audrey]

Me too!! You should have been here 6 years ago!!! Whew. It was absolutely terrifying at times. It almost drove us right back to public school. :D

 

 

I first started coming to this forum in 2001 or 2002. It was fundie central. No kidding. Just FULL of very vocal ultra-conservative American evangelical Christians. Of course, the membership was much, much smaller then. The majority of the regulars from that time have been long gone -- some banned, some graduated their kids and moved on, some left after complaining that the boards weren't Christian enough anymore. About the time that SWB pulled the plug on political discussions, a bunch more of them left, too.

 

See? Progress. ;)

[Izzy]

 

 

I was coming from an angle of different personality types and people's comfort level with being direct and outspoken.

 

 

Another point is the bigoted person isn't going to change. Well, at least not anytime soon. An angry Athiest will cause that person to expose just how bigoted their religion is and make others on the fence think twice about their religion and views. If it weren't for homeschooling and this forum I'd probably still be a Christian. Threads just like the BSA made me open my eyes and question my faith. I couldn't in good conscience be associated with any religion that turned out such hateful people. I started homeschooling and visiting this site 5 years ago and my I've been questioning my faith for 4 years. I don't believe that is a coincidence.

 

There are many questioning Christians that are feeling very hurt right now. They've come to realize something isn't right about their faith but they feel stuck. Whenever I see threads about people doubting God or religion I chime in with a little of my story and let people know they can PM me. I always get PMs.

 

Happy Athiests are the people that go on to change the hearts of the most religious and bigoted, I think. My point is each personality is helpful and much needed. IMO the happy athiests will go a long way in changing hearts and the angry athiests will go a long way in changing laws.

[Dana]

I tell the crazy religious people at park day that we homeschool for religious reasons too. My religious reason is that I want to keep my children away from whackos who think people rode around on dinosaurs 80 years ago. :D

 

 

There's a picture that is posted on another forum I read that has pictures that I won't post here... but I will post a link to the picture....

[Guest inoubliable]

 

There's a picture that is posted on another forum I read that has pictures that I won't post here... but I will post a linkto the picture....

 

Bwahahaha. And, *sob*.

[PinkInTheBlue]

 

There's a picture that is posted on another forum I read that has pictures that I won't post here... but I will post a linkto the picture....

 

Please tell me this is a joke website like The Onion. Please! Surely it's a joke.

 

Living in the south while going through my deconversion and now that I know the truth and am at peace with that is painful. :) I'm a

very peaceful person. I'm not an angry agnostic/atheist but it's SO hard not to say "Seriously!! You claim you've seriously thought about

this??". I feel like I really need to move. I can't stand the thought of leaving my mother because she would be absolutely devastated and

she's in a really unhappy marriage. I feel like I'm torn in half. I want to GET OUT but I don't think I can convince her to go with me. :)

[Carrie12345]

An interesting study.

 

http://cities.barna....minded-cities-2

 

Anyone live in one of these cities, or close to them? Any on the list, that is.

 

I have to admit that I didn't realize how un-religious the New England area is. I guess I always had the mental image of old pilgrim-era churches and a population keeping those traditions going.

 

Hm. My closest list city is W-B/Scranton at 23%. That feels somewhat accurate.

[PinkInTheBlue]

No big surprise that I am nearly at the very top of the cities list for saturation. :) I only looked for interest in entertainment. You don't have to walk around long

to tell. :)

 

We were considering moving back to North Carolina but then this past election eliminated that idea for me. Not only did they not vote whether or not to

allow same s3x marriage, they voted to establish that in their laws marriage is ONLY between man and woman. Determined in their annoyance! LOL

 

I'm thinking Atlanta is my place. I already love it and spend a lot of time there. Still in the south but enough variety to find "my kind" easier. :)

[Guest inoubliable]

Anyone in Missouri? Heads up. :(

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/01/29/missouri-republican-re-introduces-bill-to-teach-creationism-in-science-courses/

 

http://www.house.mo.gov/billtracking/bills131/biltxt/intro/HB0291I.htm

[Guest inoubliable]

No big surprise that I am nearly at the very top of the cities list for saturation. :) I only looked for interest in entertainment. You don't have to walk around long

to tell. :)

 

We were considering moving back to North Carolina but then this past election eliminated that idea for me. Not only did they not vote whether or not to

allow same s3x marriage, they voted to establish that in their laws marriage is ONLY between man and woman. Determined in their annoyance! LOL

 

I'm thinking Atlanta is my place. I already love it and spend a lot of time there. Still in the south but enough variety to find "my kind" easier. :)

 

 

NoCarolina scares me. Honestly. And I spent childhood summers and holidays there.

 

DH and I keep getting torn between Portland, OR and someplace itty bitty in Vermont. For now, we're stuck in VA. I hear Atlanta is nice and pretty, but the climate is a turn-off for me.

[PinkInTheBlue]

 

 

DH and I keep getting torn between Portland, OR and someplace itty bitty in Vermont. For now, we're stuck in VA. I hear Atlanta is nice and pretty, but the climate is a turn-off for me.

 

 

I know the northwest or northeast would be the best match but the climate is a turn-off for me. I HATE being cold. I use that

word with great precision. :) lol

[Izzy]

 

 

Diane Benscoter talks about how cults rewire the brain. Richard Dawkins hypothesizes the evolutionary instinctual behavior for children to believe adults makes belief in religion easy to pass from one generation to the next. The evolutionary advantage of instinctual belief can be seen in emotional bonding (built in love/trust between infant and child), as well as safety. This promotes propagation of the species.

 

 

I've been reading the posts today but haven't had much time to post or check out all of the links yet. One of the links I looked had a study that showed the younger generations are mostly not religious and the oldest generations more religious. I wonder if the younger generations' brains are rewiring because religion doesn't serve the purpose it once did?

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I was considering moving to NC, but my son's needed therapies turned me off of that. And now the above posts confirm that NC may not be the best place.

 

Now where do i go?!

[catz]

Oooo ... my city comes in at #81 with 21%. No wonder we feel so comfy here. We have a very nice homeschool community.

[Izzy]

 

 

I know the northwest or northeast would be the best match but the climate is a turn-off for me. I HATE being cold. I use that

word with great precision. :) lol

 

 

I despise being cold! I can happily hang out in 100 degree weather but i freeze to death once it's in the 60's. Thank goodness I live in Texas!

[Guest inoubliable]

I've been reading the posts today but haven't had much time to post or check out all of the links yet. One of the links I looked had a study that showed the younger generations are mostly not religious and the oldest generations more religious. I wonder if the younger generations' brains are rewiring because religion doesn't serve the purpose it once did?

 

 

That's an interesting question. I wonder what I can dig up on google.

[Guest inoubliable]

I was considering moving to NC, but my son's needed therapies turned me off of that. And now the above posts confirm that NC may not be the best place.

 

Now where do i go?!

 

 

Awww. I thought you'd already settled on NC. I advise NE or NW of the country. Of course, that may not work if you can't be cold. ;)

[Guest inoubliable]

I know the northwest or northeast would be the best match but the climate is a turn-off for me. I HATE being cold. I use that word with great precision. :) lol

I despise being cold! I can happily hang out in 100 degree weather but i freeze to death once it's in the 60's. Thank goodness I live in Texas!

 

But... Portland is supposed to have really nice weather year-round! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon#Climate

Never really gets cold enough to snow, doesn't even get much snow. I can get behind that!

[Izzy]

I was considering moving to NC, but my son's needed therapies turned me off of that. And now the above posts confirm that NC may not be the best place.

 

Now where do i go?!

 

 

I live in Austin and have not had problems here. There are mostly Christian homeschool groups and co-ops but there is a large inclusive group and plenty of secular activities. As far as the non homeschooling world, people don't talk about religion. It's just not an issue. But Austin is a very liberal city in a very conservative state.

[Dana]

 

Please tell me this is a joke website like The Onion. Please! Surely it's a joke.

 

 

According to wikipedia, it is :)

 

And the forum it was posted on where I saw it had the photo posted as a joke. But the complete break in reality some of the literalists have to subscribe to does get pointed out IMO in the picture :)

 

 

I'll come out as agnostic with atheist leanings.

Both of my parents are ministers. I was 5 when Mom started seminary and I remember her learning Greek to read the New Testament. Drives me batty with literalists. Mom has a Bible that has four different translations so you can compare what the English translation says in each version. Definitely makes a lot of difference.

 

I remember in college having a friend tell me he'd been saved over a break and my initial thought (which I managed not to say) was, "Oh, I'm so sorry." That's where I started reconsidering some of my thoughts on organized religion.

 

My parents are the sort who do "walk the walk". There are hypocrisies, but overall, you could point to them as "good Christians". I think many of the type of Christians mentioned in this thread are the sort that Jesus would have called out as Pharisees. I think it very sad that so many don't see the plank in their own eye. I see the rapture bumper stickers and think that many of these people would be very startled at what would actually happen to them were Jesus to return. (And Revelation is not meant to be read literally. A little critical thinking and understanding of type of writing!)

 

I was in a book club where we read Left Behind. I mentioned it to my mother & asked if she knew anything about it (this was soon after it was published). She got the author's name, asked if his wife's name was Bev. I said yes from reading the back cover. She said, "Yeah. I don't like him." Then explained the suspect theology used in the books.

 

It's interesting that both my sister and I aren't in church. She didn't even have her son baptized. My folks have done a good job at stopping bugging us about church and accepting those boundaries. I tell my son if he has questions about religion or beliefs, he can ask my parents for their thoughts. I've read him parts of the Bible and for cultural literacy knowing the stories is essential. But the Greek gods make a lot more sense to me than the Christian God.

[Izzy]

 

 

But... Portland is supposed to have really nice weather year-round! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon#Climate

Never really gets cold enough to snow, doesn't even get much snow. I can get behind that!

 

 

Do not tell my kids but I hate snow. Shhh! They are so happy when it does snow and I'm so happy that it only snows every 2 or 3 years. :D

[albeto]

I've been reading the posts today but haven't had much time to post or check out all of the links yet. One of the links I looked had a study that showed the younger generations are mostly not religious and the oldest generations more religious. I wonder if the younger generations' brains are rewiring because religion doesn't serve the purpose it once did?

 

 

Evolution of microbiology (the neurology you're talking about here), doesn't happen in a generation or two, not with primates.

 

It's a cultural thing. Most young people equate religion with homophobia and absurd right wing conservationism (search "homophobic" for the direct quote). It's one thing to grow up in a religious community where "everyone knows it's true," and quite another to have access to what the real "everyone" knows around the world at the tip of one's fingers.

[LucyStoner]

I'm keeping busy by researching the possibility of a religious gene. I'm convinced there is a link between religion and intolerance. There has to be an evolutionary purpose?

 

 

 

Yes, there are many hateful and nasty folks. Some are religious, Christian and otherwise. Some are not.

 

This is the minister who married my brother and his husband:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-tim-phillips/thank-god-for-gay-marriage-in-washington_b_1237249.html

 

This minister is far from alone in the church. He worked for civil rights for the poor and for minorities with Jeremiah Wright. Progressive, non-bigoted people are both members and leaders in various protestant denominations, the Catholic church (anyone want to call a social justice nun a bigot?) and in wholly other religious traditions. The nasty people grab the headlines. But let's not forget the many positive and justice minded parts of religion in American history- abolitionists (both violent and not. John Brown was most certainly a religious man), the first co-ed colleges, the first integrated colleges and the epicenter of the civil rights movement.

 

When I was growing up, my parents raised a mixed race family, taught non-discrimination and were huge peace activists. They were also devoutly Catholic (and were active in trying to change the Catholic Church's stances on a number of issues.) And when their son turned out to be both gay and transsexual, they embraced him, his husband and their grandkids without an iota of hated, bigotry or fear. I don't think calling religious people names is any better than the names that SOME religious people call those that disagree with them.

[Izzy]

 

 

Evolution of microbiology (the neurology you're talking about here), doesn't happen in a generation or two, not with primates.

 

It's a cultural thing. Most young people equate religion with homophobia and absurd right wing conservationism (search "homophobic" for the direct quote). It's one thing to grow up in a religious community where "everyone knows it's true," and quite another to have access to what the real "everyone" knows around the world at the tip of one's fingers.

 

 

So the discrepancy between the younger and older generations isn't physical, but cultural. I imagine it's a lot more difficult to indoctrinate the youngest generation because they will always have access to the real world via the Internet. It looks like either religion is on it's way out or we're going to start seeing more cult like religion. Maybe more fear based religion as fear keeps you from doubting your faith.

[delaney]

 

NoCarolina scares me. Honestly. And I spent childhood summers and holidays there.

 

DH and I keep getting torn between Portland, OR and someplace itty bitty in Vermont. For now, we're stuck in VA. I hear Atlanta is nice and pretty, but the climate is a turn-off for me.

 

I feel your pain. I am stuck VA for good unless DH's company branches into another city. I really dislike it here.

[LucyStoner]

Please tell me this is a joke website like The Onion. Please! Surely it's a joke.

 

 

 

Edited- I see it is silly.

 

Still, I have heard the dino/human idea reconciling dinosaurs with the bible.

 

 

If human's walked with dinosaurs, we'd be long gone from the earth. The big carnivores, no matter how dumb they were, would have considered us all quick bite sized candies.

 

 

[amo_mea_filiis.]

 

 

Awww. I thought you'd already settled on NC. I advise NE or NW of the country. Of course, that may not work if you can't be cold. ;)

 

I had settled, but then i found out that ABA services are not covered in NC. :(

 

I'm having a hard enough time getting ABA in a state with insurance coverage!

[LucyStoner]

Do not tell my kids but I hate snow. Shhh! They are so happy when it does snow and I'm so happy that it only snows every 2 or 3 years. :D

 

I'm mean. I just let them know that one of the things I love about Seattle is that snow is rare, rare, rare!

[albeto]

So the discrepancy between the younger and older generations isn't physical, but cultural. I imagine it's a lot more difficult to indoctrinate the youngest generation because they will always have access to the real world via the Internet. It looks like either religion is on it's way out or we're going to start seeing more cult like religion. Maybe more fear based religion as fear keeps you from doubting your faith.

 

You might be on to something. The only religions that will survive will have to be sequestered from the rest of the world, even more than Patriarchal Christian communities are. Perhaps they'll find areas to settle in with each other, like the Amish.

 

I read this guest blog post by Eric Steinhart, Professor of Philosophy at William Paterson University some time ago. I haven't reread it in, but thought it might have some interesting ideas to ponder.

 

The first thesis is that as Christianity declines in America, two communities will be growing: an atheistic community and a neo-pagan community.

 

The second thesis: Since Wicca is the largest and most coherent neo-pagan community, the neo-paganism will mainly be Wiccan.

The third thesis: As the atheistic community grows larger, social and practical pressures will compel it to begin to develop rituals and ceremonies.

 

The fourth thesis: The rituals and ceremonies collectively practiced by atheists will become socially recognized as an atheistic religion.

The fifth thesis: As the Wiccan community grows larger, cognitive pressures will compel it to get rid of the woo and to seek greater scientific legitimacy.

 

The sixth thesis: Underneath all the woo, which is indeed offensive to reason, there are core structures in Wicca which are highly rational.

 

The seventh thesis: Wicca is neither Christian nor Abrahamic. Wicca is immune to the strategies atheists have developed for attacking Abrahamic religions.

 

The eighth thesis: As the result of all the pressures, the two main post-Christian communities, that is, the atheists and the Wiccans, are going to be increasingly blended together. This blending will be messy.

 

The ninth thesis: The common meeting ground of these two communities will be a kind of religious naturalism.

[Izzy]

 

 

 

Yes, there are many hateful and nasty folks. Some are religious, Christian and otherwise. Some are not.

 

This is the minister who married my brother and his husband:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-tim-phillips/thank-god-for-gay-marriage-in-washington_b_1237249.html

 

This minister is far from alone in the church. He worked for civil rights for the poor and for minorities with Jeremiah Wright. Progressive, non-bigoted people are both members and leaders in various protestant denominations, the Catholic church (anyone want to call a social justice nun a bigot?) and in wholly other religious traditions. The nasty people grab the headlines. But let's not forget the many positive and justice minded parts of religion in American history- abolitionists (both violent and not. John Brown was most certainly a religious man), the first co-ed colleges, the first integrated colleges and the epicenter of the civil rights movement.

 

When I was growing up, my parents raised a mixed race family, taught non-discrimination and were huge peace activists. They were also devoutly Catholic (and were active in trying to change the Catholic Church's stances on a number of issues.) And when their son turned out to be both gay and transsexual, they embraced him, his husband and their grandkids without an iota of hated, bigotry or fear. I don't think calling religious people names is any better than the names that SOME religious people call those that disagree with them.

 

They would be Progressive Christians. I have zero problem with liberal Christians and was part of the social group. The problem is those progressive Christians get as much hate as athiests, if not more. Christians view them as a cult and label them as not Christian. The Progressive Christian group had problems because of that. Members of the group were getting hate mail and the group was basically told to pack it up and call themselves spiritual but not religious.

 

I just want to make it clear that when I say religious I don't mean tolerant religions. Not in the least. From what I've researched so far, there is a link connecting fear to the more intolerant religions. I posted an interesting link a few pages back and I'll find it and post it again. I wouldn't say anyone is name calling. I'm actually very interested in learning more about this connection.

[Izzy]

http://m.phys.org/news/2011-01-religiosity-gene-dominate-society.html

 

Here is the link again. :)

[JennifersLost]

I'm all for religious naturalism! :)

[Jennifer3141]

Okay, my bad. I don't know the players here, I don't know who is considered contentious and who isn't. I was just responding to the post itself. So, I guess I'm the one who fell off the turnip truck! ;)

 

 

 

Oh, I don't know. One of the things that helped me see past the claims of religion was simply being embarrassed to be associated with what, I would eventually find out, the religion actually supports. One should be embarrassed to be a bigot, imo. There's nothing noble or valuable about it. If a reader here is embarrassed to support bigoted policy, embarrassed to be a part of a bigoted community, she will likely struggle with that conflict. Ideally, she'll disregard what she will discover is an outdated and clearly erroneous belief (homophobia), one that is increasingly embarrassing to hold in high esteem today. Instead, she may decide to hang on to that which she can feel good about. As classical home educators, I imagine people look to the details of any given argument to see if they have merit. Those who are emotionally driven only will not be persuaded by reasonable arguments anyway. These discussions will be discerned by those who are interested in looking at the details, even if they never speak up in the thread.

 

 

 

Well I hope you had a nice landing!! :D

 

It would be awesome to think that the people who should be embarressed to be hateful and discriminatory would be but I'm afraid that by calling names (especially on an internet message board) all that does is marginalize those people and entice them to put their headphones and blinders on and then everyone who is kind of on the sidleines trying to figure out where they fall sees them as victims. Then it becomes a matter of protecting the poor picked on bigots, before the bystanders themselves too are turned on by the droves of raving homosexual atheists. :lol:

 

Don't buy into that scam. That's what all these stupid conservative congressmen tried to do last fall. OMG, protect yourselves from all these hobag women having abortions!! You can see how well that worked for them. :laugh:

 

But you're not going to embarress any one of those kinds of people. They are unembarressable. First of all, they think they are in some sort of jihad and every time you strike back with name calling, they get to turn themselves into martrys just a little bit more. They truly believe you and I are out to get their kids and make them gay and rip them from god's boobies. You can't embarress that. I can't even type it without laughing but once you've gone waaaayyy down the road of that thinking, that isn't going to change by any post on the internet - no matter how clever or intelligent or logical or funny that post may be.

 

Let them run away from organizations for becoming progressive. Let them make their creepy little cult groups and wait for the second coming of cheebiz. Humanity has been under religion's thumb for a loooooong time. We aren't going to fix that in the next 10 years, despite how awesome Facebook and the internet are. But it is going to be harder and harder to hide under rocks because if there's one thing humans like more than making gods up, it's learning. There may be one or two or 100 people who want to live with their heads in the sand, but there are 100 million more who like their microwaves and smart phones.

[LucyStoner]

They would be Progressive Christians. I have zero problem with liberal Christians and was part of the social group. The problem is those progressive Christians get as much hate as athiests, if not more. Christians view them as a cult and label them as not Christian. The Progressive Christian group had problems because of that. Members of the group were getting hate mail and the group was basically told to pack it up and call themselves spiritual but not religious.

 

I just want to make it clear that when I say religious I don't mean tolerant religions. Not in the least. From what I've researched so far, there is a link connecting fear to the more intolerant religions. I posted an interesting link a few pages back and I'll find it and post it again. I wouldn't say anyone is name calling. I'm actually very interested in learning more about this connection.

 

I come from that progressive Christianity, I know how much hate they get from fundamentalists! I can write a novel on that topic. But when you say are convinced that genetically religion is correlated with bigotry, you can't be all that surprised if someone reading thinks you are lumping religion as a whole in with bigotry.

 

I think that you might want to look at epigenetics which can pass to new generations far more quickly than genes mutate in primates. The extremely simplified idea is that while your underlying DNA does not become altered due to external situations (one example: stress from war or famine), these events can change the expression of your genes. Most interestingly you can pass on these changes to your genetic expression to your sons and daughters, even if they don't also experience the same type of event in their life. Growing up encased in an extremely bigoted environment sounds like a significant external situation to me.

[Jennifer3141]

Another little tidbit of information about religion in the world.

 

I took a ton of criminal justice classes in college. I was fascinated by profiling and had started taking the required psychology classes to go along with preparing for that career but once I had to sit down in an interview with a child molertor/killer, I figured out that wasn't the right career for me. Funny story to that but I digress... I disappointed the wits out of that college advisor though.

 

Anyway, you know a recent change that's pretty significant regarding religion - more to the point - fundamentalism in our country?? The FBI maintains this nice little database of criteria that serial killers often have in common. It's how they build profiles. What has been quietly added is childhood involvement in fundamental religions. If your parents are the "god fearing" conservative, hatefilled Xtians; that is a marker for potential serial killer building. Nice, eh? Not atheism. Not agnosticism. But good old fashioned Christianity (as it is interpreted by our more conservative members). The FBI has found no correlation between being raised in a a family that thinks god is nuts but they have found a problem in households that believe the total opposite.

 

You don't notice the more conservative churches screaming that that's not fair either. Profile building is done as judgment free as possible so as to not skew the results. It doesn't help pinpoint anyone if there's a built in bias to the profile. So it is information we are trying to interpet as cleanly as possible.

 

Interesting though isn't it? Your chances for raising a serial killer are actually LOWER if you raise your child without integrating god into your life at all than if you raised your child in a household dedicated to him.

[Guest inoubliable]

Honest question here. Is there a connection between very large families and their religion? I keep seeing of the difficulties of life when having between 6 - 12 kids - the bills, the time constraints, the need for ever-bigger housing, the need to invest a ton of time in economizing. I'm talking about the people who are having as many children as they can, or at the very least putting on the "we don't want to/believe in birth control and whatever happens just happens" face. And then those same people are the ones who aren't exactly starting out with a trust fund and have extraordinary life/money issues. And, then... I realize that those same people seem to be very religious and end their rant/complaint/observation/story with "but I trust in God/Jesus/prayer". :confused1:

 

Do some religions have "make as big a family as your uterus will handle" part of their tenets? I thought I read somewhere about a religion in Utah, but I can't find anything now. It wasn't Mormons, that I can remember. I don't remember anything like this in the RCC, other than the birth control part. But most Catholics I know use birth control anyway.

 

I'm not bashing on people's choice to have children. Not at all. I'm wondering, though, if there are specific religious groups who mandate that a woman's uterus is a clown car and they're supposed to trust in the lord for help when they can't pay their bills or eat. (And I'm hearing about this from multiple sources, not just WTM forums.)

[Jennifer3141]

That sounds like the Quiverfull people, KK.

[Rosie_0801]

You might be on to something. The only religions that will survive will have to be sequestered from the rest of the world, even more than Patriarchal Christian communities are. Perhaps they'll find areas to settle in with each other, like the Amish.

 

Or they will be woven into, or partially woven into currently held causes. A Pagan earth worshipper has much in common with every other environmentalist around. A kitchen witch could fit in with the slow food movement types, and every woman and her dog dabbles in aromatherapy and herbal medicine. Who is going to mind if the ingredients have been charged under the full moon if they smell nice and are reasonably priced?

 

Your imbedded quote was interesting. I think a lot of Wiccan ritual and dogma has been developed to legitimise it as a *proper* religion according to law but it serves a purpose for those fleeing Christianity. Do you think what he was saying seemed probable? I don't think it would be in an Australian context if we were left to our own devices, but we live in a global age so we're not. *shrug*

[Guest inoubliable]

That sounds like the Quiverfull people, KK.

 

I just googled that. I think that's what I was thinking of. I read a few things.

 

I have no more words just now.

[EmilyK]

I realize this is the Atheist social group not the pro-gay-rights social group, but reading that BSA thread made me so upset I guess I needed to post somewhere.

 

I don't even know where to start. People are so out of touch with the mainstream and historical perspective on gay Catholics. I've known gay Catholics my whole life -- since when are they not welcome? And on the BSA thing specifically, people still believe they or their kid will get attacked if they room/tent with a gay roommate? How are these kids going to go to college? Does this apply to girls as well as boys? (People seem to be more afraid of gay boys?)

 

And I was thinking of re-enrolling my boys in scouts, but I'm afraid of the Eagle board of review if they are somehow probing into Eagle Scouts' sexuality. I wanted to ask before the thread got locked, but I just don't understand how that comes up. Gay or straight, I don't want one of my kids' high school achievements to somehow be linked to an investigation of their sexuality. How does that come up? (serious question)

[EmilyK]

Honest question here. Is there a connection between very large families and their religion? I keep seeing of the difficulties of life when having between 6 - 12 kids - the bills, the time constraints, the need for ever-bigger housing, the need to invest a ton of time in economizing. I'm talking about the people who are having as many children as they can, or at the very least putting on the "we don't want to/believe in birth control and whatever happens just happens" face. And then those same people are the ones who aren't exactly starting out with a trust fund and have extraordinary life/money issues. And, then... I realize that those same people seem to be very religious and end their rant/complaint/observation/story with "but I trust in God/Jesus/prayer". :confused1:

 

Do some religions have "make as big a family as your uterus will handle" part of their tenets? I thought I read somewhere about a religion in Utah, but I can't find anything now. It wasn't Mormons, that I can remember. I don't remember anything like this in the RCC, other than the birth control part. But most Catholics I know use birth control anyway.

 

I'm not bashing on people's choice to have children. Not at all. I'm wondering, though, if there are specific religious groups who mandate that a woman's uterus is a clown car and they're supposed to trust in the lord for help when they can't pay their bills or eat. (And I'm hearing about this from multiple sources, not just WTM forums.)

 

I've been curious about this too since I have no experience of it in real life. Even my Catholic friends try to limit family size, whether through NFP or birth control, and many of them married later that seems to be the norm here. Until I came here, I didn't know people who had as many kids as humanly possible and then were surprised that it was hard to make ends meet economically. Whether my RL friends have 1 kid or 5, they seem to have factored in affording the kids as part of the decision to reproduce. I've been so confused here because it seems a no-no to suggest that someone who's struggling economically stop having kids. I mean this as a serious question but I haven't known where to ask.

[Guest inoubliable]

I realize this is the Atheist social group not the pro-gay-rights social group, but reading that BSA thread made me so upset I guess I needed to post somewhere. Welcome, welcome.

 

I don't even know where to start. People are so out of touch with the mainstream and historical perspective on gay Catholics. I've known gay Catholics my whole life -- since when are they not welcome? And on the BSA thing specifically, people still believe they or their kid will get attacked if they room/tent with a gay roommate? How are these kids going to go to college? Does this apply to girls as well as boys? (People seem to be more afraid of gay boys?) No clue. It's mind-boggling, isn't it? I think we were just trying to figure out the best way to ask these questions and get certain people thinking.

 

And I was thinking of re-enrolling my boys in scouts, but I'm afraid of the Eagle board of review if they are somehow probing into Eagle Scouts' sexuality. I wanted to ask before the thread got locked, but I just don't understand how that comes up. Gay or straight, I don't want one of my kids' high school achievements to somehow be linked to an investigation of their sexuality. How does that come up? (serious question). Seriously. That was one of the really disturbing parts for me. Why is it okay for grownups to ask a teenager about their sexuality?? And why are their achievements being cataloged with their sexuality. Sorry, but something seems incredibly icky and intrusive there.

[Guest inoubliable]

I've been so confused here because it seems a no-no to suggest that someone who's struggling economically stop having kids. I mean this as a serious question but I haven't known where to ask.

 

This. I have no idea how to ask without coming across as a judgmental b*tch. It seems common sense, though, doesn't it? If you're having trouble affording the first two or three, stop having them? Babies are great, kids are fantastic, sure. And I find it odd that usually the people with the biggest families, doing the most complaining, and praying the hardest for help are the ones who are so against social welfare...

 

I'm probably not being very clear. I'm still reading this Quiverfull stuff and I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it. (Patriarchal family governance??)

[LucyStoner]

Honest question here. Is there a connection between very large families and their religion? I keep seeing of the difficulties of life when having between 6 - 12 kids - the bills, the time constraints, the need for ever-bigger housing, the need to invest a ton of time in economizing. I'm talking about the people who are having as many children as they can, or at the very least putting on the "we don't want to/believe in birth control and whatever happens just happens" face. And then those same people are the ones who aren't exactly starting out with a trust fund and have extraordinary life/money issues. And, then... I realize that those same people seem to be very religious and end their rant/complaint/observation/story with "but I trust in God/Jesus/prayer". :confused1:

 

Do some religions have "make as big a family as your uterus will handle" part of their tenets? I thought I read somewhere about a religion in Utah, but I can't find anything now. It wasn't Mormons, that I can remember. I don't remember anything like this in the RCC, other than the birth control part. But most Catholics I know use birth control anyway.

 

I'm not bashing on people's choice to have children. Not at all. I'm wondering, though, if there are specific religious groups who mandate that a woman's uterus is a clown car and they're supposed to trust in the lord for help when they can't pay their bills or eat. (And I'm hearing about this from multiple sources, not just WTM forums.)

 

On the fringes of Christianity. There are a number of very conservative, mostly evangelical protestant, folks who not only reject artificial birth control, they reject natural birth control like FAM, extended breastfeeding and selective abstinence in marriage. It is called "quiverfull". Even my very VERY Catholic grandmother objected to this idea. She had 9 children but with breastfeeding and periods without intercourse and sleeping apart, they made sure they were not having them 1 right after another. What she and my grandfather did is something that those in the quiverfull movement tend to condemn.

 

Quiverfull is far from mainstream. Even in denominations with restrictions of birth control, nearly all allow for some sort of family planning. What bothers me is that sometimes it seems to go beyond leaving it to god and instead of race to have more and more. Famously, Michelle Duggar weaned each child at 6 months so she can get pregnant again. Some people consider birth control to be tantamount to or the same as abortion. I don't care what people think for themselves but find it abhorrent that many of them would be happy to see not only Roe overturned but also Griswold, which stated that married couples had a legal right to obtain birth control.

 

ETA: Perhaps you were thinking of the FLDS in Utah and Arizona? They are a radical offshoot of LDS and are not affiliated with the Mormon church but yes, they have a religious mandate to have as many kids as possible. With plural marriage, these numbers can get into the dozens and dozens of children from the same father.

[Jennifer3141]

Marry me, Katie!! Let's run off to Massachusetts together. :)

[LucyStoner]

I realize this is the Atheist social group not the pro-gay-rights social group, but reading that BSA thread made me so upset I guess I needed to post somewhere.

 

I don't even know where to start. People are so out of touch with the mainstream and historical perspective on gay Catholics. I've known gay Catholics my whole life -- since when are they not welcome? And on the BSA thing specifically, people still believe they or their kid will get attacked if they room/tent with a gay roommate? How are these kids going to go to college? Does this apply to girls as well as boys? (People seem to be more afraid of gay boys?)

 

And I was thinking of re-enrolling my boys in scouts, but I'm afraid of the Eagle board of review if they are somehow probing into Eagle Scouts' sexuality. I wanted to ask before the thread got locked, but I just don't understand how that comes up. Gay or straight, I don't want one of my kids' high school achievements to somehow be linked to an investigation of their sexuality. How does that come up? (serious question)

 

 

:iagree:

 

If my son's sexuality was ever an issue in scouting, I am seriously liable to punch the person raising it. It's just SICK to think of a panel of mostly older men quizzing my son on the topic.

[Jennifer3141]

Nevermind. Got it now. :D

[Jennifer3141]

:iagree:

 

If my son's sexuality was ever an issue in scouting, I am seriously liable to punch the person raising it. It's just SICK to think of a panel of mostly older men quizzing my son on the topic.

 

 

Totally agree. Gross. And I'm not quite sure what I'd do but I'd get my son to safety ASAP!!

[Guest inoubliable]

Ohhhh. The Duggars? Okay. Yes. I have heard of her. I remember (maybe incorrectly) hearing something about her having another baby and she was already past 40 and had so many kids that doctors were internet-diagnosing her with uterine issues. And I remember wondering if she had some sort of pregnancy -Munchausen thing going on if she was getting pregnant so often, (and having a TV show and going on daytime talk TV to talk about her pregnancies...)

 

Googling FLDS.

[LucyStoner]

Marry me, Katie!! Let's run off to Massachusetts together. :)

 

We can marry right here in good old Washington State. But our husbands just miiiigggghhht have an issue with it, no? :)