SOCIAL GROUP: Discussing Progressive Christianity

[Dicentra]

I do that. I call it DIY religion and think it a worthy path to take (which is not to say other paths aren't.) We home educate so we can tailor educations to our children. A DIY religion is tailoring your religion to the person you are most honour bound to be authentic to. That is not taking the easy way out.

 

For the time being, why not call yourself a Solitary Quaker?

 

:001_smile: I like that. I've always said that, had I felt called to do so, I would have liked to be one of those solitary anchorites that live for years on their own out in the wilderness with just my own brain for company. Although... I do have a fairly large addiction to Lindt dark chocolate... Do you suppose I could arrange to have delivery of some kind to my cabin in the wilderness? Ooooo... Absolute solitude + dark chocolate = total awesomeness!!!! :001_tt1:

 

I think I'm still in the mindset of some kind of spiritual "no pain, no gain". It's probably left over from my Baptist childhood and my old-school mother - if you're having fun and happy, you're obviously not working hard enough and/or you're doing something wrong. :001_rolleyes:

 

I just want to say again - thank you for this thread! I may post more questions than answers but I'm loving reading everyone's thoughts and book/website recommendations.

[Joanne]

Or is it just "my-own-version-of-whatever-I-think-spirituality-should-be-for-me-and-I-get-to-make-up-my-own-rules"? ;) Somehow, for me, that sort of feels like taking the easy way out. If I don't have a faith community to be accountable to, it feels like I'm just cruising the aisles of some sort of "spititual grocery store" and I'm picking and choosing all the things I like from different faiths and leaving behind the things I don't like. In belonging to any faith, is there an element of taking the bad with the good that makes it... I don't know... Authentic, some how?

 

Sorry - this is kind of rambling and disjointed. I'm so glad this thread was started, though - it's giving me lots to mull over. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think I'm still in the mindset of some kind of spiritual "no pain, no gain". It's probably left over from my Baptist childhood and my old-school mother - if you're having fun and happy, you're obviously not working hard enough and/or you're doing something wrong. :001_rolleyes:

 

I just want to say again - thank you for this thread! I may post more questions than answers but I'm loving reading everyone's thoughts and book/website recommendations.

 

 

I, personally, am running from this mindset/theory/paradigm.

 

It seems that most of the "accountability" is expected to men - in a disproportionate number.

 

I'm moving away from the idea that faith has to be work. Or if it feels good, fun,natural, it can't be moral, worthy, or spiritual.

 

When I not only allowed, but *embrace* a spiritual grocery store, I was finally liberated. I was able to enjoy a rich idea of what the source energy is.

 

I left Christianity, and began a brief affair with earth/pagan spirituality. Until "Lord and Lady", and high ritualism, and the idea that I need to "sit up straight while meditating" or the idea that I needed an instructor............Nope. Done. I am DONE with religion in which my own wisdom, life experience, intuition, calling, and life space is not sufficient.

 

I've had too many bosses. Young children, and their needs were the boss of me for years. Single motherhood was the boss of me. My xh was the boss of me. Financial disaster was the boss of me. Years of working several jobs was the boss of me. My husband's illness was the boss of me. For most of these years, I was involved actively in churches.

 

My altar has a mix of symbols that would made people of various traditions cringe. It's a mix of things/symbols that many would say "can't go together." But I sit there - peace. I walk by it - peace. I see it in my mind's eye when I am not home - peace.

[Rosie_0801]

Woah, such cultural differences. It's not like I'm unaware of them, but sometimes they shock me anyway. :p

 

I liked your post, Joanne, but it seems so strange to me, posts like that and other similar experiences reported here with paganism. It sounds so much more dogmatic over there than what I'm familiar with here. I'm sure this is a dumb question but aren't there solitary pagans in America? My mother is Christian without attending church and I'm pagan without attending rituals or believing in gods or goddesses. It sounds as though that's not a cultural option in America?

 

Sorry if this is a hijack, I can't decide if it is or isn't.

[sparrow]

Woah, such cultural differences. It's not like I'm unaware of them, but sometimes they shock me anyway. :p

 

I liked your post, Joanne, but it seems so strange to me, posts like that and other similar experiences reported here with paganism. It sounds so much more dogmatic over there than what I'm familiar with here. I'm sure this is a dumb question but aren't there solitary pagans in America? My mother is Christian without attending church and I'm pagan without attending rituals or believing in gods or goddesses. It sounds as though that's not a cultural option in America?

 

Sorry if this is a hijack, I can't decide if it is or isn't.

 

 

For many, I think that's true. People are looking to connect with a church or group. Personally, I've had issues with organized religion, which is why I'm here discussing "Progressive Christianity". My personal progress has been OUT of the organization.

[Veritaserum]

I highly recommend Living the Questions dvds and book. Here's one great clip from the dvd series:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I'm not ashamed and I'm not afraid. What a blessing that is."

 

 

I want to go to her church. She's awesome. I totally relate to that.

[Snow]

hmm...not sure if I would be considered progressive enough, lol. I actually do believe, totally, in the virgin birth, death, and resurection of Jesus. I believe he was/is God. I believe though that God is merciful, and doesn't want anyone to suffer or go to Hell. That Hell is just separation by God, and only could be achieved by choosing such a state, not by being condemmed to it. I believe God loves gay people just as much as anyone else, and that since love is the greatest commandment he is made happy by their love. He doesn't hate it. I think that he perhaps reached other cultures in other ways, and that He is glorified by other religious practices, when practiced sincerely. I do believe the fullest truth is in Christianity, but realize that may just be true for me and that God realized that others were better reached in a different tradition.

 

I am happy in the Episcopal church as I can say the creed honestly and nothing else is required as far as belief. And my left wing politics are not a problem :)

 

 

I agree with everything you said. This thread is making me realize just attached to Jesus I have become. I started like many of you, looking at all sorts of other religions and philosophies. I was never attached to Christianity specifically and was agnostic at various points. But a few years ago I did have a realization that made me feel like Christianity was the path for me. I didn't want to make up my own religion anymore, just to suit what I thought made sense. What do I know? And how silly that I had been searching for a sense of spiritual connection that I could never find, since I was just creating my own spirituality within my head. It was the opposite of the connection I was so desperate for.

 

Between the UCC and the ELCA, I feel like there is some solid ground being made for a middle path, one that is christian, inclusive, and uses reason and logic as a basis for understanding.

[Snow]

 

Or is it just "my-own-version-of-whatever-I-think-spirituality-should-be-for-me-and-I-get-to-make-up-my-own-rules"? ;) Somehow, for me, that sort of feels like taking the easy way out. If I don't have a faith community to be accountable to, it feels like I'm just cruising the aisles of some sort of "spititual grocery store" and I'm picking and choosing all the things I like from different faiths and leaving behind the things I don't like. In belonging to any faith, is there an element of taking the bad with the good that makes it... I don't know... Authentic, some how?

 

 

 

I should have multiquoted In my previous post. I can completely relate with what you are saying here.

[Free]

But I also see that religion gives people an inner drive to be moral. Not every one, of course, but those for whom spirituality resonates deep within. They are also "good."

 

 

How does religion give people an inner drive to be moral?

[Free]

What motive is there to choose selflessness, compassion, empathy and philanthopy? See, when you have an adult who grew up with a faith system and who later moved out of the faith system, but still desires to be "good," there's no mystery to me. They already embraced being "good" as they were growing up; they identify with wanting to be a good person. But what would motivate a child to want to be a good person if they identify with no spiritual realm? Shouldn't they just do whatever seems the most fun, comfortable and pleasant?

 

This is an interesting question. Do you believe that selflessness, compassion, empathy, philanthropy and the "desire to be be good" have no inherent value? That these values provide no pleasure or satisfaction to people who practice these?

[Onceuponatime]

This is an interesting question. Do you believe that selflessness, compassion, empathy, philanthropy and the "desire to be be good" have no inherent value? That these values provide no pleasure or satisfaction to people who practice these?

 

 

You need to understand that the culture of most of Christianity would call these things "fruits of the spirit." They would be evidence of God in your life, that is what gives them value. Even if it is not taught directly, this idea permeates, is absorbed, and is passed from generation to generation. It becomes very hard to believe or understand how anyone who completely rejects any notion of a Supreme Being or Higher Power could embrace these values.

 

When you look at the world in a certain way, you see what you expect to see. That's human nature; we all see the world through our own lenses. It's not easy to lay down the old familiar glasses and attempt to look through different ones.

 

This thread is not about atheism, but about a different kind of Christianity, one that still believes in God, but a God that is existence itself, not a separate being who rules from above. Everything and everyone is unified in existence, even if we don't "believe." So, we all have the potential to value any "good" practices and qualities in humankind.

[Guest]

How does religion give people an inner drive to be moral?

 

I explained this already. I believe that connection with the Divine produces attributes of the Divine within the practitioner. I don't care if you get there through praying the Rosary, or using icons, or meditating or studying scripture. To me, they are all valid ways of connecting with the spiritual. I don't know how one would have those attributes without a spiritual connection. I have no experience with it personally and I do not personally know anybody with those attributes who acknowledges no spiritual world. The attributes I'm talking about are what the PP is calling Fruits of the Spirit - Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Kindness, Self-Control, etc.

 

 

This is an interesting question. Do you believe that selflessness, compassion, empathy, philanthropy and the "desire to be be good" have no inherent value? That these values provide no pleasure or satisfaction to people who practice these?

 

I do believe they have inherent value, but I don't see them as having any evolutionary purpose. I don't see them as having any basis in natural human needs, therefore, I see them as spiritual. There is no survival benefit to building an orphanage in a foreign country while battling flies, mosquitoes, malaria and dysentery. People who do such things could not do them without compassion, reverence and philanthropic love for others. There would be no survival benefit to doing such things; not even a survival benefit for one's own tribe or offspring. Therefore, I believe people do these things only when they are motivated from a spiritual purpose, which I believe comes from connection with the Divine. I believe having compassion and love for others who cannot benefit you or your tribe is itself a spiritual attribute, because it is not a natural attribute.

[Guest]

This thread is not about atheism, but about a different kind of Christianity, one that still believes in God, but a God that is existence itself, not a separate being who rules from above. Everything and everyone is unified in existence, even if we don't "believe." So, we all have the potential to value any "good" practices and qualities in humankind.

 

Yes, exactly.

[Mergath]

I do believe they have inherent value, but I don't see them as having any evolutionary purpose. I don't see them as having any basis in natural human needs, therefore, I see them as spiritual. There is no survival benefit to building an orphanage in a foreign country while battling flies, mosquitoes, malaria and dysentery. People who do such things could not do them without compassion, reverence and philanthropic love for others. There would be no survival benefit to doing such things; not even a survival benefit for one's own tribe or offspring. Therefore, I believe people do these things only when they are motivated from a spiritual purpose, which I believe comes from connection with the Divine. I believe having compassion and love for others who cannot benefit you or your tribe is itself a spiritual attribute, because it is not a natural attribute.

 

You might find this interesting:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals

[Onceuponatime]

I do believe they have inherent value, but I don't see them as having any evolutionary purpose. I don't see them as having any basis in natural human needs, therefore, I see them as spiritual. There is no survival benefit to building an orphanage in a foreign country while battling flies, mosquitoes, malaria and dysentery. People who do such things could not do them without compassion, reverence and philanthropic love for others. There would be no survival benefit to doing such things; not even a survival benefit for one's own tribe or offspring. Therefore, I believe people do these things only when they are motivated from a spiritual purpose, which I believe comes from connection with the Divine. I believe having compassion and love for others who cannot benefit you or your tribe is itself a spiritual attribute, because it is not a natural attribute.

 

Well, I tend to believe it is natural, that we all, in a sense, ARE the divine. We just ignore it most of the time. When we recognize our true nature as one organism, we want to help ourselves. I don't see evolution as having a purpose that is separate from what is. Realizing our common divinity and treating others as we would want to be treated is part of what I would call "enlightenment." It is just understanding reality and acting accordingly. All human beings are part of my "tribe."

[Halcyon]

I think I am in over my head here! Lots of good postings. A little about me: I was raised nominally Congregationalist. My mother was raised strict Catholic and I heard a lot of horror stories. Anyway, my dad was atheist/agnositc and still is. He believes belief in God is a weakness, a crutch for people who can't handle the real world. :( My mother is less vocal about her beliefs, but I think she stilll believes in God.

 

Anyway, after a few years we stopped going to church altogether. I guess it just became another thing to "do" and nobody really had their heart in it, although I did. Over the years, I learned a lot about Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam (Sufism in particular), and meditation. I still believed in God, but did not like the perspective that only one religion is the way, which most of the religions seems to say. I really believe strongly in respect for other culture's, beliefs, etc and had a hard time saying "This is the right way" about anything, especially when I didn't KNOW. How in the world could I impose my beliefs on others? That was a big sticking point for me. Plus, I am a political liberal. Gay rights is a HUGE issue for me. I don't think being gay is a sin, yet so many people told me the Bible says it is, period. No wiggle room. Sigh. (of course, then I began to read the Bible for myself and figure thinngs out for myself). I also don't believe in Hell, at least not in the eternal damnation for anyone who hasn't accepted Christ as their savior kind. I truly believe in God's grace and mercy, and that ALL will come to him over time. He would never allow even one of his children to suffer in eternity. A book that I enjoyed was Hope Beyond Hell (free for Kindle on amazon) and Raising Hell by Julie Ferwerda ($2.99 for Kindle on Amazon). I also enjoyed Love Wins by Rob Bell.

 

Right now, I attend with my kids a UCC church. I like it but am not impassioned by the pastor. There is a lot of focus in the church on helping others, which is important to me. They are an open church, and state clearly their acceptance and welcome towards gay, transgendered, and bisexual people. In NYC I attended a beautiful old Episcopalian church called Holy Trinity (oh, how I love the Episcopal church, in its enlightened form ;)) but down here in Florida, the Episcopal church doesnt seem to be of the more liberal bent, so I ended up at the UCC. I do miss the ritual of the Episcopal church veery much, however. I love Holy Communion, and the way it was done in my old church.

 

I am trying to read my Bible daily, and ponder my relationship to Jesus daily. I believe that God is present in my life, and the lives of my loved ones. My DH is Jewish, pretty much agnostic, but he respects my beliefs although we don't talk about them much. He doesnt want the kids baptized until they are 18 and can make the decision themselves. He teaches them about the Jewish faith, and we celebrate all the Jewish holidays. But his heart is not really in it, as he grew up in an Orthodox household with an extremely rigid father. He just hasnt gotten over that.

 

So there it is. I am very much enjoying this thread and glad to hear everyone's thoughts.

[Mergath]

Well, I tend to believe it is natural, that we all, in a sense, ARE the divine. We just ignore it most of the time. When we recognize our true nature as one organism, we want to help ourselves. I don't see evolution as having a purpose that is separate from what is. Realizing our common divinity and treating others as we would want to be treated is part of what I would call "enlightenment." It is just understanding reality and acting accordingly. All human beings are part of my "tribe."

 

Yes. This. Exactly.

[8circles]

Hmmm. Not sure if I belong here but I'm enjoying lurking & have found myself nodding to some of the comments. I'm definitely Christian, self-proclaimed conservative & even evangelical protestant. I'm not sure I'll add anything and I'll continue to follow the conversation but I just wanted to let you know that I appreciated this conversation. I feel lucky that I don't see/feel these progressive thoughts or beliefs as mutually exclusive with my mainstream/traditional Christianity. Thanks for sharing all your thoughts and the book recommendations.

[mommymilkies]

Woah, such cultural differences. It's not like I'm unaware of them, but sometimes they shock me anyway. :p

I liked your post, Joanne, but it seems so strange to me, posts like that and other similar experiences reported here with paganism. It sounds so much more dogmatic over there than what I'm familiar with here. I'm sure this is a dumb question but aren't there solitary pagans in America? My mother is Christian without attending church and I'm pagan without attending rituals or believing in gods or goddesses. It sounds as though that's not a cultural option in America?

Sorry if this is a hijack, I can't decide if it is or isn't.

 

 

I have moved a lot (IL, NY, OH, NC) and attended a CUUPS and UU Pagan groups and I admit I have never met die hard dogmatic wiccans or pagans. I can't imagine any of them telling me what to do or believe. In one study group I was part of, we had 4 laid back pantheists, a gnostic Christian, 2 life long Druids, an owner of a pagan store, and two formerly Evangelical Christians that were now Wiccan. So it is definitely a cultural option. Lol

[Free]

I explained this already. I believe that connection with the Divine produces attributes of the Divine within the practitioner. I don't care if you get there through praying the Rosary, or using icons, or meditating or studying scripture. To me, they are all valid ways of connecting with the spiritual. I don't know how one would have those attributes without a spiritual connection. I have no experience with it personally and I do not personally know anybody with those attributes who acknowledges no spiritual world. The attributes I'm talking about are what the PP is calling Fruits of the Spirit - Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Kindness, Self-Control, etc.

 

 

It is possible to develop what you call as "fruits of the spirit" by reading secular self help books written from a scientific perspective and applying and practicing the principles therein. I happen to know personally many people who spend hours praying without any gain in Love, peace, patience or Joy. If anything, I feel it is only possible to gain these attributes through practice, not empty prayer.

 

I believe having compassion and love for others who cannot benefit you or your tribe is itself a spiritual attribute, because it is not a natural attribute.

 

Compassion, love, selflessness are not unique to humans (unless you are implying that animals can be spiritual) - I do not know how you can call these "not natural". Yes, humans may have a greater capability for compassion than most other animals, but that should not be a surprise to anyone given that humans have a greater capability for intelligence, artistry, innovation, etc.

 

I do not really belong in this thread, but I could not let the idea go unchallenged that humans derive their sense of morality from religions. It is in fact the other way around since the idea of religion is a human invention.

 

This said, I will stop derailing this thread now and bow out.

[Izzy]

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[elegantlion]

Is this a part of Progressive Christianity? Because this is what I grew up with going to Protestant churches all of my life and what I whole heartedly reject now. I thought at first that I might fit with Progressive Christians but I'm starting to question whether I'm really Christian by Christian standards.

 

If I believe in God and Jesus, do not take the bible literally, do not think my faith is any more right than someone else's faith or non faith, and believe no one truly has all of the answers...what am I? Agnostic, Pagan, Christian? It's very confusing. Maybe UU? Would one have to completely unidentify themselves as Christian to get away from the prevailing Christian doctrine? I know, so many questions. :)

 

 

I have a certain peace about where I am right now.

 

Right now I believe that God is God, that there are many religions (not just denominations) that point us to the Divine. Being a christian doesn't make me more right, it just makes it my current path.

 

The overriding question from some who say, you must accept Jesus as the way, the only way, that's my next research point. I'm not quite ready to stir up the dust on that one though. I have accepted Jesus, I believe in the trinity, but I don't believe that makes me more right or righteous than someone who doesn't.

 

I cannot reconcile that Ghandi would have been relegated to hell because he did not claim christianity as his religion.

[Onceuponatime]

Is this a part of Progressive Christianity? Because this is what I grew up with going to Protestant churches all of my life and what I whole heartedly reject now. I thought at first that I might fit with Progressive Christians but I'm starting to question whether I'm really Christian by Christian standards.

 

If I believe in God and Jesus, do not take the bible literally, do not think my faith is any more right than someone else's faith or non faith, and believe no one truly has all of the answers...what am I? Agnostic, Pagan, Christian? It's very confusing. Maybe UU? Would one have to completely unidentify themselves as Christian to get away from the prevailing Christian doctrine? I know, so many questions. :)

 

 

Have you looked at the you tube videos on Living the Questions suggested earlier in the thread? This might begin to answer some of your questions about what progressive Christianity is. I think it is confusing a lot of people because it is so different than what most people currently think of as Christianity. I wouldn't worry about fitting in. :) Questions are good. Don't look for your answers here.

[Izzy]

-

 

[Guest]

It is possible to develop what you call as "fruits of the spirit" by reading secular self help books written from a scientific perspective and applying and practicing the principles therein. I happen to know personally many people who spend hours praying without any gain in Love, peace, patience or Joy. If anything, I feel it is only possible to gain these attributes through practice, not empty prayer. Compassion, love, selflessness are not unique to humans (unless you are implying that animals can be spiritual) - I do not know how you can call these "not natural". Yes, humans may have a greater capability for compassion than most other animals, but that should not be a surprise to anyone given that humans have a greater capability for intelligence, artistry, innovation, etc. I do not really belong in this thread, but I could not let the idea go unchallenged that humans derive their sense of morality from religions. It is in fact the other way around since the idea of religion is a human invention. This said, I will stop derailing this thread now and bow out.

 

Well, it might be pointless to respond to this if you are indeed leaving the thread, but I guess I'll just say this for bystander benefit.

 

First, yes, someone can make a choice to act in a compassionate way intellectually. They can be kind, self-controlled, loving and so on because they decided to and for no spiritual reason. My experience, though, has been that when I intentionally seek to connect with the Divine, I cannot help but be infused with those qualities. The more consciously I seek to connect to the Divine, the more profoundly influenced I seem to be. I do think "Fruits of the Spirit" is a fitting term, because my experience has been that I can hardly help but have them if I'm seeking connection with God. Of course a person could pray hours of empty prayers and have no result. The prayers are empty; why would they expect a result? I believe in religion that is authentic. I have no regard whatsoever for going through the motions of being religious without having a true spiritual connection.

 

WRT animals: Who knows? Animals might be capable of spiritual connection or receiving spiritual influence. I have no idea. They may not have the same capacity as humans, but as you said, they don't have the same capacity for lots of things as humans. I don't rule out the possibility that animals can receive spiritual influence.

 

Is this a part of Progressive Christianity? Because this is what I grew up with going to Protestant churches all of my life and what I whole heartedly reject now. I thought at first that I might fit with Progressive Christians but I'm starting to question whether I'm really Christian by Christian standards. If I believe in God and Jesus, do not take the bible literally, do not think my faith is any more right than someone else's faith or non faith, and believe no one truly has all of the answers...what am I? Agnostic, Pagan, Christian? It's very confusing. Maybe UU? Would one have to completely unidentify themselves as Christian to get away from the prevailing Christian doctrine? I know, so many questions. :)

 

I don't understand what you whole-heartedly reject.

 

I know that many if not most main-line Christians would not be willing to call me a Christian if they examined my beliefs in detail. My own mother would say I am dam*ed if I spelled it out for her. For now, I have found a good fit for my family in a church that is Evangelical. I don't agree with everything I hear, but it's rare that my pastor focuses on anything I strongly disagree with. He doesn't harp on Hell, for example, or bash non-believers or talk about Original Sin.

[MIch elle]

I'm reading Living the Questions on Kindle right now. I haven't watched the videos yet but wilI. I have put every single book mentioned in this thread on my Amazon wish list and bookmarked every website. lol.

 

I went back and read the first page of this thread and so much of what was said on the first page resonates with me. :)

 

 

My inter-loan library system had "Living the Questions" dvds but I had to return them before I finished them. I stopped at 10 of 21 videos. I also have Living the Questions ebook but haven't finished it. I'm currently trying to finish watching The Story of the Bible by Luke TImothy Johnson from the Teaching Company before I borrow Living the Question dvds again.

 

Yup, this thread has me wanting to do more Christian reading and studying.

[Jenny in Florida]

Is this a part of Progressive Christianity? Because this is what I grew up with going to Protestant churches all of my life and what I whole heartedly reject now. I thought at first that I might fit with Progressive Christians but I'm starting to question whether I'm really Christian by Christian standards.

 

If I believe in God and Jesus, do not take the bible literally, do not think my faith is any more right than someone else's faith or non faith, and believe no one truly has all of the answers...what am I? Agnostic, Pagan, Christian? It's very confusing. Maybe UU? Would one have to completely unidentify themselves as Christian to get away from the prevailing Christian doctrine? I know, so many questions. :)

 

"Progressive Christianity," as I understand it, does not have any rules. It's a descriptive term for certain leanings, and there's a pretty wide range of belief that fits under the umbrella.

 

For what it's worth, I'm in very much the same place you are. I believe in something I recognize as "God," although it doesn't have a whole lot of similarity to the personified being many traditional Christians worship. I don't know exactly who or what it is, and I'm okay with not knowing.

 

I believe in Jesus in the sense that I feel certain there was a historical person who was a teacher and prophet and whose words and actions are worthy of study and emulation. I believe he was special, but I don't believe he was literally the physical/biological offspring of a diety. And I don't believe he "died for my sins" or that he was physically resurrected.

 

I believe that Christianity is one of many paths to the divine/enlightenment. I love Huston Smith's description that all faith traditions are like arrows shot from different places toward the same moon.

 

I do not take the Bible literally. I believe it is a "holy" book in the sense that it has a place of special importance in our culture, and I believe it was inspired by faith, but I am certain the Bible was written by humans for human purposes, and I do not believe it is inerrant. To paraphrase Marcus Borg: If the Bible is like a finger pointing toward the moon, it doesn't make sense to worship the finger.

 

For now, I'm calling myself a progressive Christian, because it's the best description I've got. After months of reading and research and listening to sermons and podcasts by various ministers and scholars, it feels like that is the umbrella under which I fit. However, I don't expect everyone under the umbrella with me to have exactly the same beliefs.

 

(UUs, by the way, emcompass a wide range of beliefs, too. The denomination is non-credal, meaning there is no set of theological standards one must agree to in order to join. In almost three decades of attending UU churches, I've met Christian UUs, pagan UUs, secular humanist UUs, Jewish UUs, agnostic UUs, Buddhist UUs, etc. My problem with that level of diversity is that, in order to avoid offending anyone and to make everyone feel welcome, there is often not a lot getting said or taught.)

[Rosie_0801]

I explained this already. I believe that connection with the Divine produces attributes of the Divine within the practitioner. I don't care if you get there through praying the Rosary, or using icons, or meditating or studying scripture. To me, they are all valid ways of connecting with the spiritual. I don't know how one would have those attributes without a spiritual connection. I have no experience with it personally and I do not personally know anybody with those attributes who acknowledges no spiritual world. The attributes I'm talking about are what the PP is calling Fruits of the Spirit - Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Goodness, Kindness, Self-Control, etc.

 

It has been explained already that spiritualism doesn't require a belief in anything supernatural, and neither does faith. I'm not sure if you don't understand, aren't willing to take online people's word for it or if it is not really a topic of interest. It keeps coming up, and I'm not sure whether to try and explain some more or accept that you are cool with your current stance and leave you to it.

 

 

I do believe they have inherent value, but I don't see them as having any evolutionary purpose. I don't see them as having any basis in natural human needs, therefore, I see them as spiritual. There is no survival benefit to building an orphanage in a foreign country while battling flies, mosquitoes, malaria and dysentery. People who do such things could not do them without compassion, reverence and philanthropic love for others. There would be no survival benefit to doing such things; not even a survival benefit for one's own tribe or offspring. Therefore, I believe people do these things only when they are motivated from a spiritual purpose, which I believe comes from connection with the Divine. I believe having compassion and love for others who cannot benefit you or your tribe is itself a spiritual attribute, because it is not a natural attribute.

 

There is an evolutionary purpose to being good. If you go back far enough in history, if you didn't work together, you would die. Now I would say that a non-spiritual reason for doing these things is some people are more global thinkers than others. Some people do them because they would feel like a jerk if they didn't and they don't like feeling like a jerk. That is certainly a motivating feeling!

[Rosie_0801]

I have moved a lot (IL, NY, OH, NC) and attended a CUUPS and UU Pagan groups and I admit I have never met die hard dogmatic wiccans or pagans. I can't imagine any of them telling me what to do or believe. In one study group I was part of, we had 4 laid back pantheists, a gnostic Christian, 2 life long Druids, an owner of a pagan store, and two formerly Evangelical Christians that were now Wiccan. So it is definitely a cultural option. Lol

 

What I was asking about is the strong culture of being part of a religious community.

 

I hear a bit of "I really liked Paganism, it resonated with me, but I had to stop being one because of stupid dogmatic junk." I've heard this quite a few times on the forums over the years and it seems odd to me, because if anyone was asking I'd say "Why throw the baby out with the bath water? There is nothing wrong with being a solitary Pagan if you don't care for the local mob." I hear people feeling that other people can't be Christian if they don't attend church, which seems odd because it is not church attendance that makes a person Christian, so OBVIOUSLY (to me :p) one can be a solitary Christian. "Solitary" seems to be a pagan label, but the concept works just as well anywhere else. Still, there seems not to be an equally respectable label in any other religion (as far as I can tell) which points to cultural difference.

 

Now I am a solitary kind of girl, and have virtually no desire for community in religion as I understand others do, but I really don't understand how a lack of group attendance prohibits a person believing and practicing whatever thoughts and feeling that are running about in their head, heart and soul. What I'm coming to is that Americans simply have a stronger culture of group attendance than Aussies do, and so they are brought up with and continue to feel that desire even when their beliefs have moved outside the mainstream into no man's land. Does that sound about right? I just want to kiss everyone's forehead and tell them it is ok not to go to church (or sacred space of choice) if they don't want to because they can have sacred spaces wherever they want to put them. But I'm getting to think that's missing the point. :p

[Rosie_0801]

Is this a part of Progressive Christianity? Because this is what I grew up with going to Protestant churches all of my life and what I whole heartedly reject now. I thought at first that I might fit with Progressive Christians but I'm starting to question whether I'm really Christian by Christian standards.

 

If I believe in God and Jesus, do not take the bible literally, do not think my faith is any more right than someone else's faith or non faith, and believe no one truly has all of the answers...what am I? Agnostic, Pagan, Christian? It's very confusing. Maybe UU? Would one have to completely unidentify themselves as Christian to get away from the prevailing Christian doctrine? I know, so many questions. :)

 

Uh, from my Australian perspective you could be a liberal Christian, UU, possibly a Deist, a Christo-pagan but definitely not agnostic. I don't get why would would have to completely unidentify as Christian to get away from prevailing doctrine because you are the boss of whatever is in your own head no matter what anyone else would like to claim.

[Onceuponatime]

 

I just want to kiss everyone's forehead and tell them it is ok not to go to church (or sacred space of choice) if they don't want to because they can have sacred spaces wherever they want to put them. But I'm getting to think that's missing the point. :p

 

I, for one, appreciate your input, Rosie. We need to hear that we will be okay. We need to hear from others who have created sacred spaces for themselves.

[Mergath]

Is this a part of Progressive Christianity? Because this is what I grew up with going to Protestant churches all of my life and what I whole heartedly reject now. I thought at first that I might fit with Progressive Christians but I'm starting to question whether I'm really Christian by Christian standards.

 

If I believe in God and Jesus, do not take the bible literally, do not think my faith is any more right than someone else's faith or non faith, and believe no one truly has all of the answers...what am I? Agnostic, Pagan, Christian? It's very confusing. Maybe UU? Would one have to completely unidentify themselves as Christian to get away from the prevailing Christian doctrine? I know, so many questions. :)

 

I know I'm not Christian. :p I just think the man has a lot to teach, and I'd like to consider some of it. I like to think of myself as a mountain climber on one of many paths. You know, there are many paths up the mountain, but in the end they all lead to the top.

 

Maybe we should just start a new religion, lol.

[Amethyst]

Hi Everybody! I've been trying to read this whole thread before responding, but it's taking me a while. Just wanted to say that I"m following this thread with interest.

 

I'm a Catholic, but not feeling it any more. I try and try. We continue to go to Mass semi-regularly, but dh and I discuss our motives a lot. We go to church to meditate, to (try to) feel some connection with the spiritual realm, and because we are hypocrites. Three of our four kids are confirmed Catholics and I'm trying to hang in there until the youngest is confirmed next year. At this point I view Confirmation as a way to become a "card-carrying Catholic" as my dh calls it - that way if they ever decide to marry a Catholic, they'll be able to do it in the Catholic Church. Hypocrisy, I admit it.

 

As a Catholic, I never took the Bible literally. It still boggles my mind that some people do (no offense intended). I've always told my kids that the creation story is a story, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have something important to tell us. But it just occurred to me while reading this thread that I do take the New Testament literally. And perhaps that is what my stumbling block has been. Someone early in this thread mentioned Jesus as metaphor and really got me thinking. And I'm re-reading Life of Pi right now which (I think) is also taking the attitude that just because religions are stories doesn't mean that they don't have something important to tell us.

 

Meditation - Not much. In times of real anxiety, I'll use the rosary as a tool. but I'm conscious that I don't believe the words.

 

Teaching the kids - Raising them Catholic, but two oldest probably consider themselves atheists or agnostics.

 

Does God Intervene - I don't think so. As I sat in the hospital with my 9 year old who was sick with pneumonia, I prayed, but it didn't feel right. Nine year olds die every day. Why should God save my child?

[Rosie_0801]

 

I'm a Catholic, but not feeling it any more. I try and try. We continue to go to Mass semi-regularly, but dh and I discuss our motives a lot. We go to meditate, to (try to) feel some connection with the spiritual realm, and because we are hypocrites. Three of our four kids are confirmed Catholics and I'm trying to hand in there until the youngest is confirmed next year. At this point I view Confirmation as a way to become a "card-carrying Catholic" as my dh calls it - that way if they ever decide to marry a Catholic, they'll be able to do it in the Catholic Church. Hypocrisy, I admit it.

 

Well here's me and my liberal views again, but I don't see it as hypocrisy. Tradition has it's benefits. If you want to look into that further, the book 'Spiritual Hunger' I linked earlier treats this eloquently.

[Guest]

It has been explained already that spiritualism doesn't require a belief in anything supernatural, and neither does faith. I'm not sure if you don't understand, aren't willing to take online people's word for it or if it is not really a topic of interest. It keeps coming up, and I'm not sure whether to try and explain some more or accept that you are cool with your current stance and leave you to it.

 

I suppose I'm not willing to take online people's word for it. I'm not sure why I would need to make an argument for the benefits of belief in God in a social group thread for Progressive Christianity. I am cool with my current stance; it reflects my experience and observation of people I know. If there are lots and lots of people with the spiritual traits I admire, but no spiritual beliefs, great; I have no problem with that. My experience has been otherwise.

 

 

There is an evolutionary purpose to being good. If you go back far enough in history, if you didn't work together, you would die. Now I would say that a non-spiritual reason for doing these things is some people are more global thinkers than others. Some people do them because they would feel like a jerk if they didn't and they don't like feeling like a jerk. That is certainly a motivating feeling!

 

 

But there's not an evolutionary purpose to suffering hardship for the benefit of others who are not your relatives and not your tribe. I agree that in your tribe, your social group, it would be beneficial to be liked by others, thus, do things that people like - "good" things. But why does someone transport themselves out of their comfortable 4-bedroom home with heat and plumbing so they can go help unrelated people in another country, risking their health and certainly their comfort to try and make life better for others? I don't see a naturally occurring purpose to doing that.

[ktgrok]

How does religion give people an inner drive to be moral?

 

 

I think we would call that inner drive part of our religion. A different name for the same thing perhaps? I feel that that bit of morality telling me what is good is God/Holy Spirit.

[Rosie_0801]

Uh, just in case you don't realise, Quill, I am not asking you to make a case for God in a thread about Progressive Christianity.

[ktgrok]

Is this a part of Progressive Christianity? Because this is what I grew up with going to Protestant churches all of my life and what I whole heartedly reject now. I thought at first that I might fit with Progressive Christians but I'm starting to question whether I'm really Christian by Christian standards.

 

If I believe in God and Jesus, do not take the bible literally, do not think my faith is any more right than someone else's faith or non faith, and believe no one truly has all of the answers...what am I? Agnostic, Pagan, Christian? It's very confusing. Maybe UU? Would one have to completely unidentify themselves as Christian to get away from the prevailing Christian doctrine? I know, so many questions. :)

 

I believe those things too, and am definitely Christian. To follow Christ is to be Christian. don't let the fundamentalists take that label away from you. they don't get to define it, and they don't own the label.

[Halcyon]

 

 

 

My inter-loan library system had "Living the Questions" dvds but I had to return them before I finished them. I stopped at 10 of 21 videos. I also have Living the Questions ebook but haven't finished it. I'm currently trying to finish watching The Story of the Bible by Luke TImothy Johnson from the Teaching Company before I borrow Living the Question dvds again.

 

Yup, this thread has me wanting to do more Christian reading and studying.

That Teaching Company set looks wonderful. We are enjoying the Ancient Pharaohs one now and this might be next up. Thank you.

[Halcyon]

 

 

I believe those things too, and am definitely Christian. To follow Christ is to be Christian. don't let the fundamentalists take that label away from you. they don't get to define it, and they don't own the label.

 

This is pretty much what I believe too. I am Christian. i am struggling right now with the idea that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Part of me thinks that's just nonsense. But part of me believes it (and it is this part I am ashamed of, because I think to believe that you have the ANSWER is a little bit insane). So I struggle.

[Izzy]

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[8circles]

This is pretty much what I believe too. I am Christian. i am struggling right now with the idea that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. Part of me thinks that's just nonsense. But part of me believes it (and it is this part I am ashamed of, because I think to believe that you have the ANSWER is a little bit insane). So I struggle.

 

I've thought about this too. I do actually think that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. But I don't believe that it follows that all people who don't believe will not get there. I am not God. I don't know people's hearts nor do I know what God will do (large-scale or small) before that will be determined. For example, I cannot say that Gandhi will not be in Heaven. I actually think he will but I can't say that I *know or that I'm confident. IDK. Just pointing out that a belief that "Jesus is the only way" doesn't necessarily mean that other people will be damned. God is much bigger than anything I can imagine in my box.

 

ETA: To the bolded, I agree wholeheartedly. I don't have the answer, I just know Jesus is part of it.

[Izzy]

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[Mergath]

 

But there's not an evolutionary purpose to suffering hardship for the benefit of others who are not your relatives and not your tribe. I agree that in your tribe, your social group, it would be beneficial to be liked by others, thus, do things that people like - "good" things. But why does someone transport themselves out of their comfortable 4-bedroom home with heat and plumbing so they can go help unrelated people in another country, risking their health and certainly their comfort to try and make life better for others? I don't see a naturally occurring purpose to doing that.

 

Sure there is. Our brains are genetically hardwired to do and feel all sorts of things, and one of those is to feel empathy for other members of our species. That hardwiring doesn't stop because of a geopolitical border. Oh, and we especially feel that way for things that resemble human babies, too. If it's soft, warm, and has big round eyes and an oversized head, it turns us into a puddle of goo. That's why we're all about the puppies and kitties, but not so much the crocodiles or insects. People will die to save a puppy because the coding deep down in their brain is screaming, "Baby! Baby! Help it!" That's also why programs all over the world that do various things to help the poor in developing countries use pictures of starving children, not adults. Children really trip our brain's sensors.

 

For example, let's take a look at the website for World Concern, a Christian global charity:

 

http://www.worldconcern.org/

 

Awww. Just look at those tiny children and their big eyes. Makes you feel all sad and altruistic, doesn't it? That's your brain's genetic urge to care for babies and children. The drive to help adults of your own species is there too, just not quite as strong.

[Mergath]

Double post.

[Izzy]

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[Matryoshka]

I suppose I'm not willing to take online people's word for it. I'm not sure why I would need to make an argument for the benefits of belief in God in a social group thread for Progressive Christianity. I am cool with my current stance; it reflects my experience and observation of people I know. If there are lots and lots of people with the spiritual traits I admire, but no spiritual beliefs, great; I have no problem with that. My experience has been otherwise.

 

Because you are conflating two things that do not hang together with many or even most people who would label themselves "Progressive Christians". That Belief in God is necessary to morality. People who don't believe in God can most definitely be moral; I also know lots of immoral people who profess a strong faith in God.

 

The pairing of these two ideas may be traditionally Christian, but it is exactly one of the ideas that many who are here on this thread find off-putting or even offensive about traditional, or conservative Christian belief. You say yourself that you attend an Evangelical church - I'd say most Evangelical churches are pretty much the polar opposite direction theologically of progressive Christianity. Progressive Christians reject many things that Conservative/Evangelicals consider foundational to Christianity - including the Trinity, and even the divinity of Jesus, which is why many here are hesitant to even call ourselves Christian. This "belief in God is necessary to become a moral person" is another one.

 

You are welcome to believe this - that is another thing about progressive Christianity (at least as it's being defined here) - that we don't have to agree on what we believe. But I think most here have a bit of trouble being told what we should be believing (as in "why would I need to make an argument about..."). There is no argument. You can believe it, I don't have to, I'm not looking to be convinced.

[Guest]

For one, I reject the notion that Christians are the only people capable of good.

 

It sounds like your pastor bashes non believers more than you think but you don't realize it because it's not overtly done. It doesn't appear that you think you are bashing non believers by insisting they are not capable of good unless its selfishly motivated so it's likely you don't catch it when your pastor does it. Trust me, you know more moral athiests than you realize. WTM is full of them. ;)

 

I have not stated that Christians are the only people capable of good. I do not think Christians are the only people capable of good.

 

I don't consider seeing someone's posts on WTM as "knowing" someone. I cannot make much of an assessment of a person's character from what they post on an internet board. When I'm talking about not knowing any moral atheists whom I admire, I mean people I interact with IRL, whose personalities and actions I can see with my own eyes. I only know maybe 3 people IRL who openly claim to be atheist or agnostic. They are not "bad" people, but I can't say I admire them. They are angry atheists. I don't look at them and say, "I want to be like they are." But I have said that about some people of faith whom I know.

[Mergath]

I agree with everything you said and I think we're in the same place. I quoted what you said about Jesus because I was tempted to write something along the same lines but decided to simply write that I believe in Jesus. I'm not convinced he is God. I believe he plays a very important role and he's one to follow but I'm not sure beyond that.

 

I feel like I just made a huge confession. :p

 

I've always believed there are people out there who contain a spark of the divine, and exist to help us find our way to God. Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi... Sort of like our connections to God are dial-up, and they have high speed wifi and come to Earth to help us upgrade. ;)

[Guest]

Uh, just in case you don't realise, Quill, I am not asking you to make a case for God in a thread about Progressive Christianity.

 

Okay. :confused1: I'm confused, but I'll just carry on as if nothing was wrong.

 

Because you are conflating two things that do not hang together with many or even most people who would label themselves "Progressive Christians". That Belief in God is necessary to morality. People who don't believe in God can most definitely be moral; I also know lots of immoral people who profess a strong faith in God. The pairing of these two ideas may be traditionally Christian, but it is exactly one of the ideas that many who are here on this thread find off-putting or even offensive about traditional, or conservative Christian belief. You say yourself that you attend an Evangelical church - I'd say most Evangelical churches are pretty much the polar opposite direction theologically of progressive Christianity. Progressive Christians reject many things that Conservative/Evangelicals consider foundational to Christianity - including the Trinity, and even the divinity of Jesus, which is why many here are hesitant to even call ourselves Christian. This "belief in God is necessary to become a moral person" is another one. You are welcome to believe this - that is another thing about progressive Christianity (at least as it's being defined here) - that we don't have to agree on what we believe. But I think most here have a bit of trouble being told what we should be believing (as in "why would I need to make an argument about..."). There is no argument. You can believe it, I don't have to, I'm not looking to be convinced.

 

You're not reading what I say very carefully, then. I have said many times over that there may be many moral atheists; I don't know any. I'm making a statement about what I have observed with my own eyes in person, IRL.

 

I understand progressive Christianity clearly and I understand Evangelical Christianity clearly. There is not much "essential" Christian doctrine I believe in, but my church is better suited to what I want for my family and myself at this time, so there we are. I used to go to an emergent church; Brian McLearan was the founder. At various times over the past 7 or so years, I have called myself a Deist or simple theist, a very liberal Christian or have just refused to try to label myself at all. So the idea that I would be telling anyone what they should believe is hilariously laughable. I was describing my experience and beliefs. I phrased it that way numerous times, but some are still hearing me say "Only Christians are capable of being good," which is not something I have said in my whole adult life, since I first started questioning that edict in my late teens.

[Izzy]

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