Pre-Med thoughts from middle son

[creekland]

We picked middle son up at the airport today and had a blast listening to stories and answers to questions on the drive home (+ lunch). I thought some on here might want to know his thoughts on pre-med... at least at a Top 50 school.

 

1) BE PREPARED. He took Calc and AP levels of Bio and Chem here at home and all within his junior and senior years of high school (did both Chem and Bio over those two years). He's seen peers try to tackle those classes unprepared (some due to having AP Bio way too early to be remembered well) and they've ended up having to work much more (he still had to work as the college classes are generally beyond AP level) AND they have ended up with lower grades. GPA means a TON for pre-med. You can NOT be over-prepared. At best, you know it all already and get an easy A. This is NOT a bad thing for pre-med wannabes. It far beats the stress of getting a B (or worse) in one of these classes.

 

2) DO NOT SKIP (pre-med pre-req) CLASSES due to AP credit - esp Calc. My guy IS a little bored in Calc - after all - he was well-prepared at home. However, he has friends who opted to jump over 1st semester or even 1st year Calc after it was suggested to them due to their 5s on AP tests... They regret it now and have openly told him they wish they'd done what he did and repeated the class. For one, with the shift from high school to college, it takes a bit just to get used to it all and the "new normal." For two, at a top college the class goes into more depth - and his doesn't use graphing calculators (something many students are dependent upon coming in). If you skip those beginning classes you don't have the foundation others have and it can mess up your grades. That happened to his peers - which is why they are openly wishing they'd had the guidance counseling to repeat the class rather than skipping it. As I said, for Pre-med, GPA means a TON. Med schools only want to see a completed year of Calc - they don't care if it's first year or second year (it can't be AP credits at many med schools). Re-do first year and get that (hopefully) easy A.

 

3) IF you are not CERTAIN you have a great foundation for Bio, Chem, and Calc, don't tackle them all at the same time freshman year. He's seen some go down this way - though he, himself, has been fine. You want to make sure your student knows to study over partying or even just hanging out. Don't get me wrong, my guy does have fun at school (he literally loves it where he is) and has a job plus does extra curriculars (all important for pre-med too), but he knows to keep up with his studying and not procrastinate. If there's any doubt about what your student will do once on their own, make it easier for them and toss in a couple of "easy" classes instead of all the hard ones right off the bat. (To be fair, by repeating Calc, that IS an easy class for my guy, but that's not true for everyone.)

 

4) DEFINITELY use "Rate My Professor" if possible to check out potential profs (looking for good teaching above all other comments). We did that for Chem and are extremely relieved. Middle son loves his Chem prof and often assists those from other classes who tell him their profs seem to know what they are doing, but can't teach it to lower level students. Those other classes curve their grades more so an equal number will get As, but he feels his actual KNOWLEDGE is much better - a good foundation for his other classes. You don't necessarily want an easy A prof. (I'm not sure those exist in Chem.) You want a good teacher from whom it's easier to learn to get an A. Work around the class time. You'll get over an undesirable time.

 

5) BE FLEXIBLE. Some students came into one of his classes assuming they knew quite a bit about how things "should be." The prof had different ideas. Instead of adapting to the prof, the students just complained. The prof gives the grades. Learn to adapt. By adapting, my guy even found out he LIKED what the prof did sometimes even though it does seem kind of unconventional.

 

Around 45% of applicants make it into med school as of this writing. Many, many, many get weeded out well before application time and freshman year does it to a good number of those. Some say less than 10% of students who enter freshman year thinking pre-med ever end up even applying.

 

My guy seems to be surviving just fine so far (big sigh of relief), but he's seen several others who will have a steeper hill to climb (GPA-wise) or who will fall out of the race altogether. Some, of course, probably aren't cut out for pre-med. Others could have been with better advice and/or a better foundation. NONE of them are "dumb" academically.

 

NOTE: This is not the only way one can be successful. It is just a summary of advice my guy would share with those coming behind him. He's very thankful for all he had (good preparation, etc) and feels sorry for those who could have been having an easier time if only... They honestly, openly tell him they wish they knew what our pre-college, pre-med research had discovered the year before he applied. I'm really glad I spent the time researching and asking questions... My guy may end up deciding he prefers research to pre-med, but at least he's on track with having the choice in the future.

[Cindy in Indy]

Thank you for posting this, Creekland! I will be sharing your son's advice with my middle son, currently a junior in high school, planning to pursue a path to medical school. Do you have any posts where you shared about your research, journey through undergrad application? I would love to read them.

Cindy

[fourisenough]

Thanks for sharing. She's a LONG way off (9th grade), but my daughter is thinking along the lines of a Bio/Pre-Med major at university. I'm sure she'll appreciate hearing his advice.

[creekland]

I'm not sure I've ever shared what I've learned in one simple thread. It was such a long process learning, asking, and visiting, etc, that I've shared a bit along the way when it's come up, but honestly, until my guy actually goes through the undergrad (and med school application) years, what I've learned has all been hearsay, albeit, from those I consider reputable sources like med school admissions folks (not undergrad admissions) and current med school students as well as the Pre-med page on College Confidential (wade through reputable vs not necessarily so there). I put the most emphasis on things we've heard from med school admissions people for obvious reasons, but, I'll admit I haven't talked with EVERY med school - just a few representative samples from Top 5, Top 15 - 20, and a state school. Then there are med school admission stats... to know how many get accepted, etc.

 

In general (meaning what I can think of now...):

 

1) Getting into med school is super competitive. There are some easier states than others (TX for example) because of state med schools that are exclusive (or nearly so) to their state residents, but there are also very difficult states (CA for example). Even at the "easy" states, getting into med school now is not easy. It's not at all like it was 20 - 30 years ago. One Top 5 Med school Dr + Admissions guy told us he would have never made it in if he had to deal with the competition now. He said he'd be lucky to be the janitor in his hospital rather than the head of teaching... SO, only look for CURRENT advice, not that offered from older docs. Why is it so competitive? Supply and demand. The US population is a bit larger now, but there are only so many med school seats (the two haven't grown equally) - plus - with the economy the way it is, medical fields are seen as having a "future" so they attract more wanting to go there.

 

2) Med schools are trying to find the best candidates they can. They seldom "fail" anyone as it doesn't look good, so they weed out aggressively through the application process. They are looking for top students who can handle the competition where they go to undergrad. One need not go to an Ivy or equivalent. There are many schools (including state schools) that provide a sufficient background, but they want that student who is at or near the top wherever they chose to go. NOTE: Top 5 - 15 med schools did tell us that where you did your undergrad mattered some in the equation - don't go to Podunk U. State schools did not care and went more off stats and other info. Here's a list of where WUSTL's more recent students came from (scroll over Undergrad Institutions Represented):

 

http://medadmissions...oChoosesWU.aspx

 

I was told by a Harvard Alum that their list would be similar in caliber for representative schools.

 

3) If you are aiming for a top med school, check with your potential undergrad school to see where recent graduates went and make sure you are ok with the list. DO NOT go by "Med School Admissions" stats each school offers. Those are incredibly unreliable as many schools doctor their numbers by including med schools in the Caribbean and limiting who they will support application-wise. Many will not support borderline applicants for fear they will be rejected and they'll lose their high numbers. This will NOT help you if you'd be a borderline applicant. Some borderline applicants make it in every year - if they can apply. However, no support from your undergrad institution is the kiss of death.

 

My guy is not necessarily aiming for a top med school. I just don't want to burn bridges, so we selected undergrad possibilities carefully - noting that we also wanted merit aid (meaning he didn't even apply to any Ivy schools).

 

4) To have the best chance of "being the best" at his undergrad school we went off scores (SAT/ACT) and only chose from schools where my guy would be in the top 25% of students. Fortunately, he did well on the tests, so that didn't really eliminate any choices for him, HOWEVER, I see that one coming into play a lot with students at school. If they choose a school where they just make it in or are in the bottom 50%, I've yet to see one make it. There's simply too much competition better prepared foundationally than they are. This is not a field where someone can be a "poor" test taker. One needs to take the MCAT to make it in (and score well), so they'd better get used to prepping for tests and doing well on them. Take them a few times if you need to get over the nerves to do well. (The MCAT you'll essentially get one shot at. You can take it twice (or more), but you have nicks on your application if you do this - even if your score improves.) To sum up my original thought with this, it's better to "lower" the caliber of school to fit the student rather than trying to compete. Kids who choose appropriate schools often have a fighting chance as med schools like diversity (and remember, state schools often don't discriminate on undergrad places).

 

5) DO NOT take ANY pre-req course at a community college or over a summer session. Some schools give leeways for this on Calc, but others do not. The reason I was given (more than once) is because med admissions see this as the "easy" way out - they perceive these classes to be easier than 4 year weeder classes - and they don't want a student who is trying to go the easy route. It's not a character trait they want to see. To be honest, they teach you EVERYTHING you need to know in med school, so it's really not WHAT you learn in undergrad that matters. It's seeing who can withstand the stress, competition, and memorization needed to do well in some of these classes. Those are all traits they are looking for. Also note that ANY class you take in a college (even dual enrolled classes) WILL count toward your overall GPA and Science GPA. If you take any classes (non pre-reqs are just fine), make sure you get As.

 

6) As mentioned above, do not use AP credit to skip a Pre-req class. Some med schools do not care about this, but many do. Why limit yourself early? Med schools change what they want to see periodically and it's usually wanting more, not less. IT IS OK to accept AP credit for things like Psychology, History and non pre-req classes. Be careful on English and Calc. Many still want to see actual 4 year credits, so if you skip the freshman classes, be prepared to do them at higher levels.

 

7) You need to be active in college. Students who have 4.0 GPA and high MCAT scores are rejected each year. It's usually because all they did was study. Med schools want you to have a life. They want to see research, extra curriculars, perhaps a job, SOMETHING that shows you have a life outside of just studying. Med school is tougher than undergrad (anywhere), so they need to know you really can step up. Plus, they want doctors who are "people" not just studying machines.

 

8) Many recommend choosing an undergrad with a med school within walking distance. Pre-med students often get to shadow and work in the hospital giving them valuable experience on a regular basis. Having to do it just during the summer or on breaks can be more difficult. PLUS, many med schools do give a little bit of preference toward their own undergrad students. They know them. They've seen them. If they don't accept them themselves, you can often get a good word put in for another school (esp if you prefer another school due to what they specialize in when it comes time to apply).

 

9) We haven't hit these yet, but don't take the MCAT late for an application round. You want to have everything submitted and be available for interviews starting the summer before you want to be a student. If you don't submit until summer, you're limiting yourself. Also, be sure to PREP for the MCAT. The MCAT itself changes in 2015, so keep abreast of the changes. My guy would normally be that year. He's seriously contemplating a gap year (encouraged for many) to allow for some time to assess the test rather than being a guinea pig, but all students who take it in 2015 will be in the same boat, so he'll decide that later. A gap year is starting to be recommended more and more to allow for students to get some field experience (in a lab, in a clinic, overseas, wherever) so he may go that route anyway. A school that is used to sending many to med school will have good advising. Those with a few applicants might be more problematic (just due to less experience).

 

That's all I can really think of right now other than some of the things I mentioned in the first post - take Bio, Chem & Calc BC at AP levels senior year to be well-prepared. In order to fit Bio and Chem in, we did them both over two years (covered half the info each year throughout the whole year). Don't skip parts of the book as many schools do. It may all be important. If you take them earlier, the brain tends to forget a bit. Middle son also did anatomy and AP Psych his senior year and has told me that proved very useful for his Brain and Cognitive Science class (his major and another "tough" class supposedly). Once again it helped that he already knew the anatomy and some brain thinking portions and just had to learn the "new" things making his A easier.

 

Don't push your student. If they want to do it, THEY have to get used to doing it in high school IMO. That way it will be natural for them at college. We stressed the pitfalls of alcohol and drugs - we're not teetotalers, but middle son, himself, has opted to stay away from it at college in order to not hinder his chances. He's told us of peers who didn't - and again - will have steeper hills to climb. One chap opted to get high rather than study for his Chem final - bad move.

 

So, for my guy's last two years, I did the research and provided him with the curricula he needed (including teacher's manuals) and let him do almost everything himself. We shared med school info and, of course, attended "Doctor Days" at various places together. He's lined up at a school where, if he continues doing well, he can feel competitive to apply anywhere for med school. Then we'll cross our fingers.

 

As a side note, he's found himself intrigued by research on the brain and could end up willingly going that way if the opportunity arises (it could where he's going to school as they have oodles of research going on there), but even then, he'll be ABLE to try for what he wants rather than feeling like he HAS to give up his med school plans (plans he's had since 3rd grade).

[Cindy in Indy]

Thank you for your timely response, Creekland. We will be discussing your suggestions as ds continues to prepare himself.

Cindy

[Nissi]

Thanks Creekland. This is very helpful.

[creekland]

Why did some of the replies to this thread get deleted? I didn't see anything "wrong" with any of them. I thought the info being provided by others was helpful. I even added my "like" to some of them. Any clues?

[Jane in NC]

Some posts were lost after the boards were restored from a backup. Could that explain it?

[Reya]

I would put in that if you want to go to med school, you would do better off choosing a different major than pre-med.

 

Physics majors and several of the engineering majors have much better acceptance rates on average than pre-med majors do. When I was in college, physics majors had the highest acceptance rates into med school than ANY major, period. You still have to take the pre-med requirements (as part of your minor), but of course, you don't have to avoid taking credit for any AP class as you will take higher level courses in all the math and science domains at that point.

[creekland]

Some posts were lost after the boards were restored from a backup. Could that explain it?

 

Perhaps, but it's certainly a bummer as there were some long, well thought out, helpful posts on there that ended up lost.

 

I would put in that if you want to go to med school, you would do better off choosing a different major than pre-med. Physics majors and several of the engineering majors have much better acceptance rates on average than pre-med majors do. When I was in college, physics majors had the highest acceptance rates into med school than ANY major, period. You still have to take the pre-med requirements (as part of your minor), but of course, you don't have to avoid taking credit for any AP class as you will take higher level courses in all the math and science domains at that point.

 

Very few colleges even offer a "pre-med" major and I've never seen it recommended that a student choose it. Pretty much everyone chooses a major they like - it's very recommended that one choose a major they like as it's easier to get a high GPA when one is studying a field they like. (This was also in one of the "lost" posts...). Art and Music majors get accepted to Med schools every year - alongside Bio, Physics, Engineers, etc. There is some debate about "trade" majors (other than Engineering). Some data suggest Business and Nutrition and similar majors aren't as loved.

I can repost the site with tons of stats:

 

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/

 

Table 18 gives acceptance rates by field. Physical Sciences have slightly less than a 50% acceptance rate as does Math & Statistics (both higher than average), but if one looks at the actual data, one still needs a high GPA and MCAT. If one doesn't feel they can get a high GPA with Physical Sciences that major won't help them get into med school. There isn't much variance on the average GPA of matriculants.

 

With regards to accepting AP credit for intro Bio & Chem classes - the med school admssions folks we listened to said not to do that as they want to see students take on the opening competition and do well - not skip it. To each their own. MANY colleges we checked into did not allow Pre-med majors to skip Intro Bio or Chem and gave us the same reason. The state school we looked at said they left it up to the student, but admitted it would restrict their med school choices later on. Calc they are more flexible on, but yes, for schools that require Calc (and English) skipping via AP credits will mean you have to take higher level courses (usually).

[Reya]

Very few colleges even offer a "pre-med" major and I've never seen it recommended that a student choose it. Pretty much everyone chooses a major they like - it's very recommended that one choose a major they like as it's easier to get a high GPA when one is studying a field they like. (This was also in one of the "lost" posts...). Art and Music majors get accepted to Med schools every year - alongside Bio, Physics, Engineers, etc. There is some debate about "trade" majors (other than Engineering). Some data suggest Business and Nutrition and similar majors aren't as loved.

I can repost the site with tons of stats:

 

https://www.aamc.org...antmatriculant/

 

Table 18 gives acceptance rates by field. Physical Sciences have slightly less than a 50% acceptance rate as does Math & Statistics (both higher than average), but if one looks at the actual data, one still needs a high GPA and MCAT. If one doesn't feel they can get a high GPA with Physical Sciences that major won't help them get into med school. There isn't much variance on the average GPA of matriculants.

 

With regards to accepting AP credit for intro Bio & Chem classes - the med school admssions folks we listened to said not to do that as they want to see students take on the opening competition and do well - not skip it. To each their own. MANY colleges we checked into did not allow Pre-med majors to skip Intro Bio or Chem and gave us the same reason. The state school we looked at said they left it up to the student, but admitted it would restrict their med school choices later on. Calc they are more flexible on, but yes, for schools that require Calc (and English) skipping via AP credits will mean you have to take higher level courses (usually).

 

 

Most people trying to get into med school choose bio with a pre-med concentration. The actual major is biology, but it's tilted toward premed. That's what I meant. :) It's like there is no actual actuarial major in most math programs, but most have an actuarial sciences option within the math dept.

 

Engineering isn't a "trade" major. You mean engineering tech? Or what other kind of major? I would NEVER recommend a tech degree for someone wanting to go to grad school in pretty much anything. Nutrition, too, I wouldn't recommend. It's a very light major.

 

For fine arts/humanities, it would depend on the major. Some are notoriously difficult, like music, and some are very easy, like English.

 

I think the "specialized health sciences" might include biomed engineering... Not sure.

 

Physical sciences includes chemistry, with a meh acceptance rate, and physics, with a VERY high acceptance rate. Chemistry is a relatively easy major and hauls down the average there. There are 20 chemistry majors for every physics major.

 

"Other" would include all the other engineering majors and business....so that link doesn't help separate. :)

 

Math actually isn't all that great a major for most things. It's not that fabulous for law school, either. Not sure why.

 

Each university should have the rates of acceptance for med school for each of their majors. When I went to Purdue 10 years ago, 100% of physics majors and over 75% of biomed and electrical engineering majors were accepted into med school. It's somewhat harder now, but not a ton at the right university with the right major. (Physics majors also had 100% acceptance rates into law school.)

 

If you have a physics major or engineering, you pretty much have to have SOME calc AP credits to stay on track without having a really heavy load later on. TECHNICALLY, you don't HAVE to have any calc for any engineering major, but most people who don't have calc credits going in end up having to take 4.5-5 years to graduate because they get overwhelmed with the upper-level workload. And of course, you take higher level math courses in all engineering and physics fields! So then it doesn't matter that you have no grades, when you have calc III, linear alg, and Dif Eq.

 

"Take on the opening competition" is kind of dumb, honestly, because it's a competition filled with the uncompetitive students. Not saying you weren't told that, but few good students are in those classrooms. The learning-side problem with using AP credits only comes when you had an inferior AP class or managed to make a higher AP score than you really should have.

 

All the people who had to take the courses I skipped through AP came to me for tutoring. I always had my dorm room packed before each big calc or chem test, full of people needing help. I was in no way hindered educationally in any of my courses by taking AP credit for everything I could. There was absolutely NOTHING that they were taught that I didn't already know, but better.

 

There has been some criticism about the redo of the AP calc course, in that it might be weaker than it used to be and a 5 now isn't a 5 10 or 15 years ago. If that's true, then this might not always hold constant. But I'd still maintain that a GOOD AP class is better than a GOOD college lecture course over the same material, every time. You get more class time and smaller classes for the same amount of material.

 

Of course, you have to make good decisions before and in choosing a med school, too. You should have little to no undergrad debt, and you should choose a med school that makes sense for the kind of medicine you're interested. As an extreme example, a future GP going to Harvard is wasting absurd amounts of money. (Then again, becoming a GP doesn't really make sense at all anymore.) 99% of future MDs are best off at excellent, budget-wise regional schools. Prestige alone is not worth an extra $40k of debt.

[hsmom27]

I almost decided not to weigh in here, but my oldest stepDD is trying to decide which med school to attend right now. She took AP Bio and Calc and did well on the tests. She went to a relatively selective undergrad school that offered her a free ride. She majored in anthro because that was the field she was originally interested in. She spent her junior year abroad and sort of fell into assisting doctors there. When she came back she wanted to become a doctor. Because she was out of time, she had to take several science and math courses the year after she graduated with a 3.67 GPA. Finances compelled her to take them at the local community college. She did make straight As on those courses. She took the MCATs once and didn't report her scores because she felt she had performed poorly. She retook them and received very high scores.

 

She is currently entertaining admissions offers from several schools. 3 of them are in the top 20 nation wide. Right now she's deciding between the school she really wants to attend and the one that offered her a free a ride (both top 20). I just wanted to share this story to illustrate that many paths can lead to medical school. Not all of the admissions process is about GPA and AP classes taken/not taken.

[hsmom27]

*double post*

[Reya]

Take the free ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

:)

 

I went to school in the unfortunate age when most merit scholarships had been eviscerated and yet the need-based aid was pretty weak, too. Thinks are better now in both departments.

[creekland]

Engineering isn't a "trade" major.

 

I agree it's a white collar major (hubby is one and has owned his own business for 14 years now), but some do still consider it a trade major since one tends to go straight to work with just a BS and seldom needs grad school. It is not, however, considered a trade major by med schools. It all depends on how one looks at it which is why I made the designation I did.

 

TECHNICALLY, you don't HAVE to have any calc for any engineering major, but most people who don't have calc credits going in end up having to take 4.5-5 years to graduate because they get overwhelmed with the upper-level workload.

I agree with having Calc before tackling the math heavy majors. That said, neither hubby nor I did and he graduated as an Engineer (having to retake Calc 1 at that) and I gradutated with a double major of Physics and Psychology in 4 years without any issues... ;)

 

"Take on the opening competition" is kind of dumb, honestly, because it's a competition filled with the uncompetitive students. Not saying you weren't told that, but few good students are in those classrooms. The learning-side problem with using AP credits only comes when you had an inferior AP class or managed to make a higher AP score than you really should have. All the people who had to take the courses I skipped through AP came to me for tutoring. I always had my dorm room packed before each big calc or chem test, full of people needing help. I was in no way hindered educationally in any of my courses by taking AP credit for everything I could. There was absolutely NOTHING that they were taught that I didn't already know, but better. There has been some criticism about the redo of the AP calc course, in that it might be weaker than it used to be and a 5 now isn't a 5 10 or 15 years ago. If that's true, then this might not always hold constant. But I'd still maintain that a GOOD AP class is better than a GOOD college lecture course over the same material, every time. You get more class time and smaller classes for the same amount of material.

 

I suppose this depends upon where you choose for your undergrad. Where middle son is now pretty much everyone in the Bio 101 course has had AP already and many of those scored 4 or 5 on the test. They've all been challenged and there's absolutely no way one learned more in their AP course - no matter what the AP course was or who taught it. (My guy has been sharing his tests...) Ditto that for Chem. He has found Calc to be relatively easy, but most students in the class didn't. My guy got uncurved As in each of those classes - most of the class needed curves and the averages turned out to be Bs (after the curve). That said, at easier schools, courses are easier. If the Bio 101 class at the school is merely an AP equivalent class, then it will be repeat material, and therefore, easy. It all depends upon the school one is attending. It is definitely not worth it to attend a tougher school if one feels it will affect their GPA negatively. It's only worth it if it truly fits the student.

 

Prestige alone is not worth an extra $40k of debt.

 

I fully agree. My guy is going to the undergrad that cost him the least - but it was also his first choice school and he's very happy with all of his opportunities there - no regrets on his part. He would not have been going there if it cost us a bit extra.

 

I almost decided not to weigh in here, but my oldest stepDD is trying to decide which med school to attend right now. She took AP Bio and Calc and did well on the tests. She went to a relatively selective undergrad school that offered her a free ride. She majored in anthro because that was the field she was originally interested in. She spent her junior year abroad and sort of fell into assisting doctors there. When she came back she wanted to become a doctor. Because she was out of time, she had to take several science and math courses the year after she graduated with a 3.67 GPA. Finances compelled her to take them at the local community college. She did make straight As on those courses. She took the MCATs once and didn't report her scores because she felt she had performed poorly. She retook them and received very high scores. She is currently entertaining admissions offers from several schools. 3 of them are in the top 20 nation wide. Right now she's deciding between the school she really wants to attend and the one that offered her a free a ride (both top 20). I just wanted to share this story to illustrate that many paths can lead to medical school. Not all of the admissions process is about GPA and AP classes taken/not taken.

 

I'm glad you weighed in! And yes, it does go to show that students who decide later to head the pre-med route are not out of the race. Congrats to your step DD! (For anyone also interested, there are post bacc routes to get into med schools, but other than knowing they exist, I haven't looked into them as much since it doesn't fit our situation. I do know the requirements are a bit different. Someone with experience should post more about them.)

[Reya]

I agree it's a white collar major (hubby is one and has owned his own business for 14 years now), but some do still consider it a trade major since one tends to go straight to work with just a BS and seldom needs grad school. It is not, however, considered a trade major by med schools. It all depends on how one looks at it which is why I made the designation I did.

 

These days, most get MS degrees if they want actual engineering jobs instead of glorified tech positions. It makes a $10k-$20k difference right off the bat, too.

 

I agree with having Calc before tackling the math heavy majors. That said, neither hubby nor I did and he graduated as an Engineer (having to retake Calc 1 at that) and I gradutated with a double major of Physics and Psychology in 4 years without any issues...

 

 

That was a bit longer ago. :) The number of upper-level courses has increased, and engineering and physics workloads are quite a bit heavier than they used to be. 18 credit hours, with up to 15 being upper-level science/math/engineering is now common in many programs if you don't get calc out of the way first. Many students get bogged down.

 

 

I suppose this depends upon where you choose for your undergrad. Where middle son is now pretty much everyone in the Bio 101 course has had AP already and many of those scored 4 or 5 on the test. They've all been challenged and there's absolutely no way one learned more in their AP course - no matter what the AP course was or who taught it. (My guy has been sharing his tests...) Ditto that for Chem. He has found Calc to be relatively easy, but most students in the class didn't. My guy got uncurved As in each of those classes - most of the class needed curves and the averages turned out to be Bs (after the curve). That said, at easier schools, courses are easier. If the Bio 101 class at the school is merely an AP equivalent class, then it will be repeat material, and therefore, easy. It all depends upon the school one is attending. It is definitely not worth it to attend a tougher school if one feels it will affect their GPA negatively. It's only worth it if it truly fits the student.

 

Many students don't really understand the material the first time. I don't get how you can manage to do decently on the AP test and not understand it, but that was very much my experience when I tutored people who'd gotten 3s and 4s on the AP test and then retaken the course. Many of my calc III honors classmates (open to only those who made 5s on Calc BC AP) crashed and burned on the first couple of tests. (My first test was the highest grade I ever got in college, after the curve--it got curved to a 120!) I really don't know why. Either you know it or you don't. There wasn't any kind of mystery about it.

 

A GOOD AP program uses the most popular freshman textbooks. And it WAS all familiar to me--the chem text was identical, in fact, and the calc was close enough that it didn't matter. My university was in the top 10 nationally for almost all engineering majors. In fact, the engr dept made a big deal about how you should take their courses and you shouldn't think that AP was good enough to take you to the next level, but for me, at least, it was all hogwash. Of course, my high school AP classes had mostly honors engineering-level students in them, which probably made a difference.

 

Anyhow, I think a lot more depends on the student and the quality of AP preparation than on the university's intro courses. :) Most of the students made good choices, whether they skipped or retook the courses. I just figure it's better to do it really well the first time than do something twice to get an easy A!

[creekland]

These days, most get MS degrees if they want actual engineering jobs instead of glorified tech positions. It makes a $10k-$20k difference right off the bat, too.

 

 

We may have to agree to disagree. My hubby is in the field and has owned his own business now for years. We simply are not seeing what you are seeing. Posts I've read on College Confidential don't exactly match what you are saying either, BUT, it might be true in your area or from your Alma mater.

 

That was a bit longer ago. :) The number of upper-level courses has increased, and engineering and physics workloads are quite a bit heavier than they used to be. 18 credit hours, with up to 15 being upper-level science/math/engineering is now common in many programs if you don't get calc out of the way first. Many students get bogged down.

 

I think the competition is tougher now, but I don't really see where a huge number of courses are different. Again, my comment from before applies. I definitely recommend kids heading into either field see Calc in high school whether for credit or not. I think it'd also have made life easier for both hubby and I, but it just wasn't as common back then.

 

Many students don't really understand the material the first time. I don't get how you can manage to do decently on the AP test and not understand it, but that was very much my experience when I tutored people who'd gotten 3s and 4s on the AP test and then retaken the course. Many of my calc III honors classmates (open to only those who made 5s on Calc BC AP) crashed and burned on the first couple of tests. (My first test was the highest grade I ever got in college, after the curve--it got curved to a 120!) I really don't know why. Either you know it or you don't. There wasn't any kind of mystery about it.

 

A GOOD AP program uses the most popular freshman textbooks. And it WAS all familiar to me--the chem text was identical, in fact, and the calc was close enough that it didn't matter. My university was in the top 10 nationally for almost all engineering majors. In fact, the engr dept made a big deal about how you should take their courses and you shouldn't think that AP was good enough to take you to the next level, but for me, at least, it was all hogwash. Of course, my high school AP classes had mostly honors engineering-level students in them, which probably made a difference.

 

Anyhow, I think a lot more depends on the student and the quality of AP preparation than on the university's intro courses. :)

 

 

This may be the case where you went, but it isn't where my son goes. Those who have done well on the tests know the material decently. If they didn't, they dropped out of the course quickly. The course is just far more in depth. It assumes those coming in already know the basics. My guy's Bio teacher told the class he, personally, feels ALL intro textbooks are high school material and hardly used a text for class as "none were up to date enough." The individual school and depth of course at that school matters more IMO. I know many state colleges have lower level Bio and Chem classes that students can take. That can matter too. Those don't exist where my guy is going. There are only higher level kids attending that school. (We may have to agree to disagree here - those reading can decide for themselves.)

 

Most of the students made good choices, whether they skipped or retook the courses. I just figure it's better to do it really well the first time than do something twice to get an easy A!

 

And this is what this thread is a bit about. Many may have the choice to skip or retake the courses for an easy A (Neither Bio nor Chem were what my guy would call easy - they were both a step beyond AP level). For pre-med wannabes, my guy's recommendation (the original intent of this post) is to re-take and this is based off his experience at a Top 30 school known for pre-med. Readers will have to decide for themselves (even decide whether to pursue a top level school vs a more average school) based upon their student. ;) We share info (and experiences) so folks can see what is happening. I don't know any top level school that will let a pre-med major AP out of intro Bio & Chem, but there may be some for those who want that path.

[creekland]

ps Our College level Bio teacher at the public high school used to believe that "all college intro Bio classes are the same from cc to Yale" and would freely tell his students that. He no longer tells them that. The difference? I showed him a test... It took him less than 10 seconds to change his mind...

 

Now he tells them that if they head to most state schools or lower level schools the Bio classes will be similar, BUT many top schools will consider his class just "the basics."

 

My youngest son is in this guy's class at the high school and has sat in on middle son's class at college. His thoughts? Middle son's class goes really, really into depth and his own class merely skims the surface.

[snowbeltmom]

These days, most get MS degrees if they want actual engineering jobs instead of glorified tech positions. It makes a $10k-$20k difference right off the bat, too.

Do you have any statistics that you could post? When I received my engineering degree back in the Stone Age, we were advised not to get an MS degree at all if we wanted to work in industry, and those that wanted to conduct research or teach were advised to skip the MS and go straight for the PhD.

 

 

That was a bit longer ago. :) The number of upper-level courses has increased, and engineering and physics workloads are quite a bit heavier than they used to be. 18 credit hours, with up to 15 being upper-level science/math/engineering is now common in many programs if you don't get calc out of the way first. Many students get bogged down.

This is exactly why my oldest has been advised not to study engineering if he plans to go on to medical school. It is difficult enough to finish an engineering degree in four years, and next to impossible once you tack on the additional premed requirements, especially with the upcoming changes to the MCAT.

[jennynd]

 

Do you have any statistics that you could post? When I received my engineering degree back in the Stone Age, we were advised not to get an MS degree at all if we wanted to work in industry, and those that wanted to conduct research or teach were advised to skip the MS and go straight for the PhD.

 

 

 

This is exactly why my oldest has been advised not to study engineering if he plans to go on to medical school. It is difficult enough to finish an engineering degree in four years, and next to impossible once you tack on the additional premed requirements, especially with the upcoming changes to the MCAT.

 

 

Time might be different from Stone Age :)

I have not know one single person at my work (mechanical engineer) do not own MS degree or up. My current group, not research, consist with 60% phD and about 40% masters. BUT.. Many did get hired right out BS degree. My current company parctically requires and pay all the BS engineers to get MS once they get hired. They contract with universities and offer class remotely and some courses were taught by our own employee. U get no chance to get promotion without at least MS. My current company is top10 fortune company so I imaging it might different for smaller engineering form.

 

I probably will agree on not to get in engineer if u are doing pre-med. however, with less than 50% chance to get in, what they gonna do if they do not have a good plan B?

 

DS is very young but he wants to go Vet school since he was 3 and not for one day changes his mind. I do want him to have a solid plan B ,not a wishy washy biology or chemisty major. His aunt did biology and didn't work out so hot for her. I can see physics or math be a good compromising plan B.

[Miss Marple]

This is exactly why my oldest has been advised not to study engineering if he plans to go on to medical school. It is difficult enough to finish an engineering degree in four years, and next to impossible once you tack on the additional premed requirements, especially with the upcoming changes to the MCAT.

 

i

Probably not adding much to the discussion here, but my oldest graduated with an engineering degree (4 years) and went right into the industry (Petroleum) because the industry prefers that their students not spend the time getting graduate degrees. In fact, he was told that he might be sent by his employer for a graduate degree, but that the employer preferred to select the PEs to send as well as the school where they want them to go.

 

This is not true of son number two. His declared major is Mechanical Engineering and he has been told that he should plan to get a masters degree if he wants to be more competitive for a position as well as for advancement potential. He is interested in nuclear/physics type of engineering. He researched medical nuclear engineering and concluded that the job potential was low in comparison to a MD radiological degree. So he has changed his major to ME with pre-med option. Golly! That means he is taking 18-19 hours per semester. This past semester he pulled one B (with all A's in other classes) and he feels a bit robbed :) He had an 89.3 but he had done all the extra credit available. That means he had over a 91%. But the professor decided to cap the amount a student could get credit for- even though he made more available. DS is not happy.

 

What we've seen is that the medical school admissions committees look at the quality of the undergraduate education - it's not just the GPA. It is the GPA and the field in which it was obtained. Also volunteerism and shadowing is a huge factor - they want students who have truly investigated the field. Ds comes from medical family (surgeon and pharmacist) so he knows what is required and what the lifestyle is like. But he is still using his breaks to shadow and volunteer. Ds decided to continue with the ME degree because he is interested in radiological oncology. As such he is taking Calc 4 and Differential Equations this coming spring along with the other required courses for pre-med and ME. I don't think we'll see much of him this next semester.

 

It is possible to get an engineering degree in 4 years and take the pre-med courses as well, but it is difficult (I love the degree sheets available online that list out the courses/semesters of study - very helpful). And that difficulty level is something an admissions committee takes into account when reviewing/interviewing a student.

[FaithManor]

Time might be different from Stone Age :)

I have not know one single person at my work (mechanical engineer) do not own MS degree or up. My current group, not research, consist with 60% phD and about 40% masters. BUT.. Many did get hired right out BS degree. My current company parctically requires and pay all the BS engineers to get MS once they get hired. They contract with universities and offer class remotely and some courses were taught by our own employee. U get no chance to get promotion without at least MS. My current company is top10 fortune company so I imaging it might different for smaller engineering form.

 

I probably will agree on not to get in engineer if u are doing pre-med. however, with less than 50% chance to get in, what they gonna do if they do not have a good plan B?

 

DS is very young but he wants to go Vet school since he was 3 and not for one day changes his mind. I do want him to have a solid plan B ,not a wishy washy biology or chemisty major. His aunt did biology and didn't work out so hot for her. I can see physics or math be a good compromising plan B.

 

A little off topic here, but Jenn I just wanted to give you a heads up for your ds interested in veterinary medicine. If he is willing to do large livestock work, he should check out Michigan State University. Very few men are going into vet medicine right now. There is glut of women in the field and virtually all of them want to do only small animal work. Unfortunately, being a heavy agricultural state- horse, dairy, fiber farms - this has really hurt livestock owners because it can be difficult to get any kind of prompt attention for larger livestock since the few vets practicing are sated with clients. MSU is practically rolling out the red carpet to any one willing to specialize in large livestock. It does appear, by statistics, to be gender discrimination since there is a three year wait for females to get into the vet school and a zero wait for males. But, this is because the small animal program is filled to the brim and that is what the females want to go into. However, there are more than enough openings in large livestock. If some of those gals would switch emphasis, they'd get into vet school right away because there are openings. However, most are unwilling to consider it. A rare one will make the leap and take on expertise in equine medicine - these gals are SERIOUSLY sought after since many an ornry horse does better (for what reason I do not know) with a female vet than male - but, most just bide their time waiting to get in the small animal program.

 

So, if he's willing to wrestle cows, sheep, llamas, and such...he may find that MSU will not only offer generous scholarships if his stats are good, but wave out-of-state tuition if you aren't in Michigan. We've heard of some pretty sweet deals for "boys" for vet school.

 

One caveat is that MSU does give serious preference to those students who received their undergrad degrees from MSU and it's a pretty heavy discrimination because U of M has a very good vet school as well. However, frankly, the state licensing board has given MSU all the rights for overseeing vet medical equipment and all manner of regulatory oversight so it is harder to get started as a U of M vet in Michigan than an MSU vet. Shouldn't be allowed, but it is what it is. However, it seems that out-of-state, U of M vets do just fine when they leave here.

 

Just thought I'd give you that little tidbit!

Faith

[Reya]

I think the competition is tougher now, but I don't really see where a huge number of courses are different. Again, my comment from before applies. I definitely recommend kids heading into either field see Calc in high school whether for credit or not. I think it'd also have made life easier for both hubby and I, but it just wasn't as common back then.

 

Look at average times to graduation in various majors and the number of credit hours required to graduate. It has changed quite a bit over the past 20 years.

 

States like Texas have recently passed laws about the maximum number of credits allowed to be required in a major because the problem had gotten so bad. I went to school during the worst of the credit-ballooning, before laws were passed to limit it. It's still rough, though.

 

 

The individual school and depth of course at that school matters more IMO. I know many state colleges have lower level Bio and Chem classes that students can take. That can matter too. Those don't exist where my guy is going. There are only higher level kids attending that school. (We may have to agree to disagree here - those reading can decide for themselves.)

 

And I tutored bio and chem majors in their chem classes and engineers in their calc classes. These were the hard versions of the courses at very a well-respected university.

 

 

And this is what this thread is a bit about. Many may have the choice to skip or retake the courses for an easy A (Neither Bio nor Chem were what my guy would call easy - they were both a step beyond AP level). For pre-med wannabes, my guy's recommendation (the original intent of this post) is to re-take and this is based off his experience at a Top 30 school known for pre-med. Readers will have to decide for themselves (even decide whether to pursue a top level school vs a more average school) based upon their student. ;) We share info (and experiences) so folks can see what is happening. I don't know any top level school that will let a pre-med major AP out of intro Bio & Chem, but there may be some for those who want that path.

 

 

YMMV. If there's an option, I would personally rather take something new and more challenging than the same thing over again. My university frowned on AP tests but accepted them, swearing up and down how much more challenging and in-depth their courses were. I was like, "Hmmm, then why am I making better grades than all those folks who took your supposedly superior courses on the next course in the sequence?"

 

After being told that I ABSOLUTELY MUST take their calc to do well in physics for engineers, I somehow managed to make the highest lab grade in a class of 1,500 students and among the top 5 for tests and homework. In fact, I was the ONLY student enrolled that semester to get my lab grade curved DOWN. (I jumped lab groups halfway through because I was tired of making As for the losers I got stuck with and teamed up with another girl who was doing all the work for her group, so I really was the ONLY student, as the rest of my super-lazy lab group the proceeded to almost fail the rest of the labs.) It was the same in other subjects--in fact, my first Spanish prof threw a fit and had two of us skipped out of an ADDITIONAL course in the sequence so we could take classes closer to our level, and that was after the department head tried to tell me (and others) that I shouldn't take credit for all 4 classes that my 5 on the AP test got me because I'd surely struggle.

 

So either I had a simply amazing AP experience or a great deal of the hype doesn't have much substance behind it. I also know a lot of other people with similar experiences at top-ranked colleges for their majors. I guess it depends on the student and the student's background, as well as what the school accepts (whether it frowns or not). I am still incredibly dubious that a class that teaches ostensibly the same thing is harder because it's at a university. Every time I've been told that by a department head or dean, this has not proven to be the case. Only if it's a fundamentally different course--like MIT's honors mechanics versus regular introductory physics--would I be convinced. In that case, it's apples to oranges and isn't really the same course at all.

[jennynd]

 

 

A little off topic here, but Jenn I just wanted to give you a heads up for your ds interested in veterinary medicine. If he is willing to do large livestock work, he should check out Michigan State University. Very few men are going into vet medicine right now. There is glut of women in the field and virtually all of them want to do only small animal work. Unfortunately, being a heavy agricultural state- horse, dairy, fiber farms - this has really hurt livestock owners because it can be difficult to get any kind of prompt attention for larger livestock since the few vets practicing are sated with clients. MSU is practically rolling out the red carpet to any one willing to specialize in large livestock. It does appear, by statistics, to be gender discrimination since there is a three year wait for females to get into the vet school and a zero wait for males. But, this is because the small animal program is filled to the brim and that is what the females want to go into. However, there are more than enough openings in large livestock. If some of those gals would switch emphasis, they'd get into vet school right away because there are openings. However, most are unwilling to consider it. A rare one will make the leap and take on expertise in equine medicine - these gals are SERIOUSLY sought after since many an ornry horse does better (for what reason I do not know) with a female vet than male - but, most just bide their time waiting to get in the small animal program.

 

So, if he's willing to wrestle cows, sheep, llamas, and such...he may find that MSU will not only offer generous scholarships if his stats are good, but wave out-of-state tuition if you aren't in Michigan. We've heard of some pretty sweet deals for "boys" for vet school.

 

One caveat is that MSU does give serious preference to those students who received their undergrad degrees from MSU and it's a pretty heavy discrimination because U of M has a very good vet school as well. However, frankly, the state licensing board has given MSU all the rights for overseeing vet medical equipment and all manner of regulatory oversight so it is harder to get started as a U of M vet in Michigan than an MSU vet. Shouldn't be allowed, but it is what it is. However, it seems that out-of-state, U of M vets do just fine when they leave here.

 

Just thought I'd give you that little tidbit!

Faith

 

Thanks a lot for the insight. I don't think large animal is what he has in mind ;). I am planning to get him in a 4H program, it will be great to see how he react around the large farm animal. I am in NY and the boy has Cornell in his mind. Do u know if this trend is cross the country?

[creekland]

It looks like pretty much all of yesterday morning's postings were deleted as well. What a bummer! It honestly makes me feel like posting less for a few days as I had added a few that really seemed appropriate and I feel a bit of frustration to see them lost.

 

Reya, you and I just have to agree to disagree. Honestly? I don't believe the majority of what you post. but readers may read what both of us post and discern things for themselves. It is entirely possible you just didn't go to a "good fit" college. There are also colleges that have lower levels than others. ;)

 

To anyone reading... (this will sort of be a similar post to one I made yesterday, except, of course, that I didn't memorize the wording then):

 

I highly encourage any prospective pre-med student (and their parents) check out universities with med schools as many have specific "Doctor" days where they encourage you to visit and have talks from med school admissions folks (not just undergrad admissions). You won't need to attend a ton of these, because after a few you realize they are pretty much saying the same thing (just a little more restrictive for higher ranked med schools). This advice is geared for the high school student heading pre-med (not someone deciding later to go pre-med - later in college or after college). They pretty much complete the statement, "When I look at an application I am looking for..." to make the difference between one who will get an interview and one who won't. There can always be exceptions, of course, but we opted to go for the majority, not the exceptions.

 

What we've seen is that the medical school admissions committees look at the quality of the undergraduate education - it's not just the GPA. It is the GPA and the field in which it was obtained.

 

Table 18 shows that pretty much all accepted students (from any major) have eerily the same GPA - it's kind of a myth to believe that a lower GPA in a tougher major is equally as good - look at the table and see. There can, however, be an advantage to going to a higher level school for those wanting a top 15 med school. An admissions person from one such school was asked the question, "Can I go to School X and still make it in to your med school?" and was told, "Absolutely not. You wouldn't even get an interview. That school is too low for us." Then, when asked what schools would work the lady responded, "We have a list (about 300 - 350 schools, not 8 or 10) of schools we like and will pick our interviewees from. If we come across an application we like and a school we don't recognize, then we'll look to see how selective the school was. If it was "selective" or higher, we'll offer an interview. If not, we don't. We don't usually come across schools we don't recognize." I seriously doubt state schools have the same "list," but I also expect other top 15 schools do similarly.

 

Anyway, the info I posted is what we've learned on these visits. I don't know that middle son will opt for a Top 15 med school (state schools are cheaper), but we didn't want to burn bridges and he had the high school stats to compete, so he opted for a Top 30 school well known for pre-med and research (his other potential path) for undergrad. Then, what I started this thread about is his thoughts from his experiences freshman fall semester. I'll brag a little and say he got a 4.0 - before any curves were added to a couple of his classes. Curves go UP in some tough classes so "enough" get As. No class is curved down if "too many" get As. His school is not cut-throat. There are plenty of pre-meds, but many of them study together and all of them root for each other (my guy loves this). He has seen the results from others who have joined him on this journey and I asked him for some advice he would give to others before I posted this thread.

 

I'll also add that some info I have comes from seeing several grads from the high school where I work go on thinking pre-med. They go to all sizes and levels of schools. The vast majority drop out quickly due to grades or simply finding out that path is not what they thought it would be. However, some succeed. The common denominator for those who succeed is that they go to a school where they can do well and they finish at or near the top for their school. Even School X gets kids into med school (just not that Top 15 med school). If your student wants to be an MD there's nothing wrong with choosing School X if that's what fits them - just know you are aiming for a lower level med school (ALL med schools create Drs). It's better for them to do extremely well at School X than to get bogged down in the competition at a higher level school. Just make sure your School X gets kids into med schools (ask them!). If they have the stats (and desire) to try for a higher level school, then do it. Success can happen (and my guy loves the higher academics and challenge - he'd likely have been bored at School X). They just should be prepared.

 

Readers can take anything written here for what it's worth to them - or opt for Reya's advice ;) - or neither. It's just info shared for any who might want to consider it.

 

Definitely try to attend a "pre-med" day at a local (or high ranked as preferred) med school. We've done both (two Top 15s and a state school). And right now, my guy is in the hunt as a high schooler potentially heading pre-med. As he goes along, he might have more he wants to share. If so, and if this board starts KEEPING posts, I'll try to post it.

 

Anyone else in a similar boat can feel free to post even if their thoughts are different. As far as I'm concerned, the more info, the better. It's entirely possible that different areas of the country are different in what they are looking for, so someone from CA could have other advice (but I bet a lot stays the same based upon readings on College Confidential). Also realize there are exceptions when med school admissions come into play (just as there are with regular admissions). My guy took Bio, Chem, Calc, and Brain & Cognitive Science classes his freshman fall semester and did well in all of them, BUT it's not what his school recommends for freshmen coming in as many do NOT do well with 4 tough classes all at once coupled with the transition to college. Know your kid when making decisions and plan accordingly.

 

And consider the source when reading. ;)

[maize]

Creekland, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing the information you have gathered as well as your son's experience.

[snowbeltmom]

It is possible to get an engineering degree in 4 years and take the pre-med courses as well, but it is difficult (I love the degree sheets available online that list out the courses/semesters of study - very helpful). And that difficulty level is something an admissions committee takes into account when reviewing/interviewing a student.

Thank you for taking the time to post this. This information contradicts what I was told by numerous posters on College Confidential. My son's ultimate goal is to become a doctor, but he wanted to study engineering in undergrad and based on the advice I was given on CC by numerous members I was discouraging this path. Now I am thinking that discouraging this may be a mistake.

 

Another website I found yesterday that has a ton of great information for pre-meds is "student doctor network". They have a sub-forums for high school students in addition to the forums for pre-med students.

 

The topics that have been discussed in this thread are all addressed on that website.

 

Creekland, thanks for starting this thread.

[Miss Marple]

Thank you for taking the time to post this. This information contradicts what I was told by numerous posters on College Confidential. My son's ultimate goal is to become a doctor, but he wanted to study engineering in undergrad and based on the advice I was given on CC by numerous members I was discouraging this path. Now I am thinking that discouraging this may be a mistake.]

 

The University of OK has created a major called: Mechanical Engineering with Pre-Med Option. They have scheduled it out for 4 years. This is what my son is doing. It isn't for the faint of heart, though, because he is taking 17-19 hours per semester. He will have Calc 4 and Differential Equations in the same semester.

 

As far as GPA being the biggest factor, I can tell from experience that it is not. Admissions committees are people...they know people...they are looking for a well rounded student. Smart, motivated, bringing something unique to the table, etc. are the things they are looking for.

 

My husband: attended a mission school that used ACE Paces. He finished those paces at 15.5 years old. Went to the local junior college for a year, admitted to Bethany Nazarene (now SNU) in OKC, completed a chemistry major and research, GPA was decent (probably 3.8) MCAT score 9 2/3 (good, not stellar), accepted to both OU and UNM. He was a resident of NM so chose there because he could not afford out of state tuition. Why did he get in? He was not outstanding in anything...had no APs, went to a sub par high school/junior college and a liberal arts college. BUT he was 19 when he applied. He was the youngest student ever accepted to the university medical school. He graduated junior AOA. He ended up with a general surgery residency, burns & trauma fellowship, and a vascular surgery fellowship. No one asks where he went to medical school :) Although the medical school became rather highly rated based on his graduating class. Yes, this was in the olden days of the 80's

 

A friend's daughter: Homeschooled. Oldest of 12 children. Went to the local CC for 2 years, transferred to OU to finish out her degree. She had no APs, her homeschool experience was OK, she did well at the CC. Accepted first time to OU medical school, currently doing residency in OB/GYN.

 

Son's roommate: (unfortunately the old posts were lost about this). NMF, marching band, high GPA, chemistry major, top 1% nationally on the MCAT. Applied to 5-6 schools. Not accepted.

 

Yes, medical schools look for the top GPA, but those with a bit lower GPA who went into a field more rigorous than biology or chemistry are still competitive. Stats are just a part of what to consider when thinking about medical school. Don't think that GPA is the only thing they consider. That's what my son's roommate did. He is back at school doing the things he should have done earlier. Most engineers don't go to medical school so you won't necessarily see them in the online stats. Yet, there are some who have a hankering to use some aspect of engineering in medicine (my son). Those students may have a little lower GPA because of the course load as well as the quality of the courses but the medical schools are looking for those more unique students. They aren't the bulk of the applicants....but they are certainly considered and accepted. I'm not saying that a 3.0 GPA will get you in medical school.

 

Pre-med counselors will certainly stress GPA. They want these see the kids who put forth a significant effort and weed out those who have a poor work ethic. They know what medical school entails...endless days of studying. So, yes, they will tell you that GPA is the most important. And it is in the sense of prioritizing the piles. If you present with a 3.0 you get put in the low GPA pile...unless you have some really interesting feature added to your application (super high MCATs, GPA was from 30 years ago, etc.). But from the advice we have been given and from what we have seen in reality, a good GPA (above 3.5) plus a unique feature will get you an interview. And an interview is the foot in the door :)

 

FWIW, I think the interview is more crucial than anything else.

[MomsintheGarden]

Thanks to all who posted - and reposted - on this thread! I am enjoying the debate, and really appreciate the time you ladies took to write your findings.

[Miss Marple]

Just want to add something - I don't think I've been very succinct :)

 

GPA is a very important aspect of medical school application. If one is intending medical school for a career it could certainly be considered the most critical aspect. Choosing a major that allows a higher GPA is probably in ones best interest. However, if you have a student who has an interest in something more rigorous than a biology or history major, and he is considering medical school, don't discourage him/her from going into the field of his interest. I'm assuming that OU expects students in the ME program to apply to medical school since they have created the option :)

 

It is also important to define a good GPA. If you look at the medical school's information sheets they will tell you what their minimum GPA is - and what their average class has. That is important to consider. But remember, the single engineering major who is accepted with a 3.5 GPA will be lost in the crowd of biology majors with 3.8 GPA. That's why you won't see a statistical lowering of the GPA. Most engineers don't go to medical school, but those who do are in a significant minority. Their stats will be diluted.

 

And another aspect to consider - the ranking of the medical school. We have no desire to aspire to a top 10 or even top 20 medical school. In fact, I don't think ds will want to go out of state. His specialty will come about in residency. And if he has good medical school stats he will get a good residency :)

 

Personally, if my son gets admitted I'll rejoice with him. If he doesn't I'll have a little private celebration of my own :)

[Kathy G]

I am enjoying this thread. I am a physician and have friends who work in admissions at a few med schools. I think there is a wide variety of answers depending on where you go. I was a chemistry major (and yes- required to have 4 semesters of calc for that) when I applied. It was very beneficial to have come from an Institute of Technology rather than a liberal arts college for my medical school. That is still true at my medical school. They have an elaborate formula for figuring out their applicants and the undergrad college type as well as perceived difficulty of major is all included. Some schools would do it differently and may in fact prefer liberal arts majors. Most sought after at my school were those with engineering/analytical sciences background because the admissions committee felt that those students knew how to think rather than just doing well with memorizing. I might agree or disagree with that criteria- but that is the way it was, and remains. I went to a school ranked in the top 10 nationally and I do not know if that makes a difference.

 

Oh and as an aside, DH is an engineer with only a lowly bachelors degree. He is known nationally for his innovations and invited to speak at international and national confernces. He also speaks at Universities to undergraduate and graduate students regarding his work and innovations. In his area of engineering there are not as many with MS or PhD degrees. I think that also depends on the type of engineering. He has thought about pursuing a futher degree, but it won't help him with his career- advancement or financially.

[*LC]

MSU is practically rolling out the red carpet to any one willing to specialize in large livestock. It does appear, by statistics, to be gender discrimination since there is a three year wait for females to get into the vet school and a zero wait for males. But, this is because the small animal program is filled to the brim and that is what the females want to go into. However, there are more than enough openings in large livestock.

 

So, if he's willing to wrestle cows, sheep, llamas, and such...he may find that MSU will not only offer generous scholarships if his stats are good, but wave out-of-state tuition if you aren't in Michigan. We've heard of some pretty sweet deals for "boys" for vet school.

 

Just thought I'd give you that little tidbit!

Faith

 

Faith,

 

I stumbled into this topic by accident searching for a post that had disappeared, and I am so glad I did.

 

Thanks for sharing. That is extremely interesting. I have a boy that wants to be a vet and is willing to be a large-animal vet. I have looked at a few vet school statistics, and I had noticed that most of the admissions/students are female. I hadn't seen a break down by type; Thanks again for the heads up. My vet-wannabe is scared by the cost ofvet school, so I will be happy to share your tidbit with him. This is my laid-back kid, and it might help to make him a bit more motivated. We had seen where there are government programs that will pay back government loans if you agree to do food-supply vet med in under-served areas for x number of years.

 

thanks again.

[creekland]

Thank you for taking the time to post this. This information contradicts what I was told by numerous posters on College Confidential. My son's ultimate goal is to become a doctor, but he wanted to study engineering in undergrad and based on the advice I was given on CC by numerous members I was discouraging this path. Now I am thinking that discouraging this may be a mistake.

 

I'm still of the belief that one should let their student major in what they want to major in... When we visited med schools they all had "panels" of current students and we could ask questions. Each one of those panels had an engineering undergrad major - though those also had 3.8 - 4.0 GPAs (even in engineering). One also had played a Division 1 major sport. (He really impressed us with his accomplishments - hence - we remember him fairly well.) Your guy just needs to realize that he will need a high GPA (3.5+ to feel "comfortable") even in a tough major. Med schools we visited told us they did NOT change their standards for majors. There may very well be med schools that do. We didn't visit them all. Some undergrad schools showed stats more or less proving their grads had a 0.1 or 0.2 "bump" in the GPA (could get a lower GPA than average and still be accepted). Something similar could happen with majors, I suppose, but the med schools themselves said a 3.3 in engineering won't be as impressive to them as a 3.7 in something else. However, if your guy likes engineering, let him do it. There are students out there with those 3.5+ GPAs in engineering and it can be a nice backup or alternative route should he decide he likes it better.

 

Another website I found yesterday that has a ton of great information for pre-meds is "student doctor network". They have a sub-forums for high school students in addition to the forums for pre-med students.

Ahh, college confidential on steroids. But yes, like cc, it can be a good wealth of info. ;)

 

The University of OK has created a major called: Mechanical Engineering with Pre-Med Option. They have scheduled it out for 4 years. This is what my son is doing. It isn't for the faint of heart, though, because he is taking 17-19 hours per semester. He will have Calc 4 and Differential Equations in the same semester.

 

Out of curiosity, is this what other schools call Biomedical Engineering? Or is it something else?

 

My husband:... BUT he was 19 when he applied. He was the youngest student ever accepted to the university medical school. He graduated junior AOA. He ended up with a general surgery residency, burns & trauma fellowship, and a vascular surgery fellowship. No one asks where he went to medical school :) Although the medical school became rather highly rated based on his graduating class. Yes, this was in the olden days of the 80's

 

Your hubby sounds like one fantastic guy... but remember, even the head of one of the Top 15 med schools we visited said the rules now are much different than they were 30 years ago and the competition is much tougher. He, even being the head of his school, feels he would not have made it in if he had to compete now and warned against doing anything based on the advice of current docs who went through the process back then.

 

I absolutely agree that no one cares where one goes to med school. ;)

 

 

A friend's daughter: Homeschooled. Oldest of 12 children. Went to the local CC for 2 years, transferred to OU to finish out her degree. She had no APs, her homeschool experience was OK, she did well at the CC. Accepted first time to OU medical school, currently doing residency in OB/GYN.

 

 

 

AWESOME. I love it when homeschooled kids do well!!! And, evidently OU is not a med school that cares about cc. That's excellent for people to know. One might want to check to see how exclusive they are to local students (I honestly have no idea). If fairly exclusive, it could be an excellent option for those in the region. This is also another reason why it's important for people to attend days with info for their local med schools as advice could be different.

 

Son's roommate: (unfortunately the old posts were lost about this). NMF, marching band, high GPA, chemistry major, top 1% nationally on the MCAT. Applied to 5-6 schools. Not accepted.

 

Yes, stats show (Table 24) that even only 91.5% of the top of the top students make it in. One theory is that these kids only studied - not a great trait. Another theory is that they only try for top med schools - always risky. It is important to keep a life outside of studies (with extra curriculars, shadowingm, etc), and to apply to some "safety" med schools - sort of a misnomer, but there are some that are easier to get into than others.

 

 

Pre-med counselors will certainly stress GPA. They want these see the kids who put forth a significant effort and weed out those who have a poor work ethic. They know what medical school entails...endless days of studying. So, yes, they will tell you that GPA is the most important. And it is in the sense of prioritizing the piles. If you present with a 3.0 you get put in the low GPA pile...unless you have some really interesting feature added to your application (super high MCATs, GPA was from 30 years ago, etc.). But from the advice we have been given and from what we have seen in reality, a good GPA (above 3.5) plus a unique feature will get you an interview. And an interview is the foot in the door :)

 

FWIW, I think the interview is more crucial than anything else.

 

 

:iagree:

GPA is a very important aspect of medical school application. If one is intending medical school for a career it could certainly be considered the most critical aspect. Choosing a major that allows a higher GPA is probably in ones best interest. However, if you have a student who has an interest in something more rigorous than a biology or history major, and he is considering medical school, don't discourage him/her from going into the field of his interest. I'm assuming that OU expects students in the ME program to apply to medical school since they have created the option :)

 

It is also important to define a good GPA. If you look at the medical school's information sheets they will tell you what their minimum GPA is - and what their average class has. That is important to consider. But remember, the single engineering major who is accepted with a 3.5 GPA will be lost in the crowd of biology majors with 3.8 GPA. That's why you won't see a statistical lowering of the GPA. Most engineers don't go to medical school, but those who do are in a significant minority. Their stats will be diluted.

 

And another aspect to consider - the ranking of the medical school. We have no desire to aspire to a top 10 or even top 20 medical school. In fact, I don't think ds will want to go out of state. His specialty will come about in residency. And if he has good medical school stats he will get a good residency :)

 

Personally, if my son gets admitted I'll rejoice with him. If he doesn't I'll have a little private celebration of my own :)

 

 

:iagree: It's also important to note that, of all students applying, those with a 3.4 - 3.59 GPA have a 40% success rate - just under the national average. One wants as high of a GPA as they can get, but one doesn't NEED a 3.8 - 4.0 to make it in. Anyone with a 3.5 should take the chance and apply IMO though beware some "high med school acceptance" "lovers of their stats" schools could very well not support students who want to apply as they cherish their 85% - 100% record so much that they don't want borderline chances. This is an example where heading to one of those for undergrad is a bad idea...

 

 

I am enjoying this thread. I am a physician and have friends who work in admissions at a few med schools. I think there is a wide variety of answers depending on where you go. I was a chemistry major (and yes- required to have 4 semesters of calc for that) when I applied. It was very beneficial to have come from an Institute of Technology rather than a liberal arts college for my medical school. That is still true at my medical school. They have an elaborate formula for figuring out their applicants and the undergrad college type as well as perceived difficulty of major is all included. Some schools would do it differently and may in fact prefer liberal arts majors. Most sought after at my school were those with engineering/analytical sciences background because the admissions committee felt that those students knew how to think rather than just doing well with memorizing. I might agree or disagree with that criteria- but that is the way it was, and remains. I went to a school ranked in the top 10 nationally and I do not know if that makes a difference.

 

Thank you for sharing!

 

 

Oh and as an aside, DH is an engineer with only a lowly bachelors degree. He is known nationally for his innovations and invited to speak at international and national confernces. He also speaks at Universities to undergraduate and graduate students regarding his work and innovations. In his area of engineering there are not as many with MS or PhD degrees. I think that also depends on the type of engineering. He has thought about pursuing a futher degree, but it won't help him with his career- advancement or financially.

 

 

Thanks for sharing this too. My lowly BS (PE) engineer has done projects on 3 continents (as well as owning his own business) and has never thought about pursuing a higher degree as there's absolutely no need for him. Our state does require ongoing credits to keep up in his field, but that's a different issue.

[CrystalM]

It is my understanding that most medical school applicants apply to at least 10 and upwards of 30 schools to "guarantee" an acceptance. I thought this was crazy when I first heard it but if it's your dream you do everything you can to get in. Also just bc an applicant is not accepted the first year they apply does not mean they should give up. Take a year to work and volunteer and apply again the next year.

[creekland]

It is my understanding that most medical school applicants apply to at least 10 and upwards of 30 schools to "guarantee" an acceptance. I thought this was crazy when I first heard it but if it's your dream you do everything you can to get in. Also just bc an applicant is not accepted the first year they apply does not mean they should give up. Take a year to work and volunteer and apply again the next year.

 

I've read that most do 10 - 20 (very expensive BTW), but this still doesn't guarantee an acceptance anywhere. The 45% acceptance stats overall count every individual applicant vs matriculation - not every application vs acceptance.

[CrystalM]

I said guarantee in quotes showing it's not 100% but a much better chance than only applying to a handful of schools. If you apply to 27 schools you have a better chance to get one acceptance than applying to only five schools. The friend who applied to 27 schools was coming out of Stanford University so academically he was strong but still understood that he wanted a better chance than other friends from the same schoo, major program, and statistically equal applying to only a few schools.

[creekland]

Oh, I figured you knew what I was talking about. I'm just not sure others reading understood it. Many (including myself when I was new to this) assumed med school applications would be like undergrad applications and that there would be reach, match, and true safety schools. ;) In reality, it's a bit more like only applying to very, very selective schools (except for some who live in "easier" states, but even those aren't "easy" like with undergrad where literally everyone can find some sort of school - even if cc).

[Miss Marple]

Out of curiosity, is this what other schools call Biomedical Engineering? Or is it something else?

 

No, totally different. It is a complete ME degree with all the medical school pre-reqs added in. That's why it's about 17-19 hours per semester.

[at the beach]

I posted this in the pre-med spin off thread and thought I'd post it here, too, regarding math prerequisites:

 

FWIW, my daughter has spent lots of time around residents and fellows this year. She tells me they come from a variety of backgrounds and from their own statements math isn't necessarily their strong suit. ;) Not suggesting you slack on the math, of course. Anyway, a recent resident she met spent three years working at Home Depot after college before deciding on med school. A good friend of hers had top stats, a 33 MCAT and got no interviews first time applying straight from college. A year later, he got accepted pretty quickly, started this fall and is loving it. The same year my daughter's friend got rejected, a relative got into med school right from college. She didn't have top stats. She wasn't even in her university's honors program when she started college, and her major was Biology.

 

It looks like the new MCAT will have a stats section but from what I can tell there currently is no separate math section at all. ETA: It looks like new MCAT includes stats but it is actually not a separate section. And there will be more humanities. Some med schools don't even require calculus as a prerequisite. For Case Western, a year of college calculus is only required for students applying to the medical scientist training program. Ohio State and University of Michigan--no calculus requirement. None at Vanderbilt. Johns Hopkins website says that it requires one year of calculus and/or statistics and AP credit for Calculus is okay. Regardless of AP credit, JH recommends a minimum of one semester of statistics. Tufts does not have a math course requirement but recommends coursework in statistics, calculus and computer science. Columbia doesn't appear to have a math requirement. And the physics requirement at any website I've looked at is not calculus-based.

 

Here is a link to the what's on the new MCAT: https://www.aamc.org...reviewguide.pdf

 

The link to the pre-med spin off thread, which also has a lot of information in it: http://forums.welltr...e-med-thoughts

[jennynd]

 

 

No, totally different. It is a complete ME degree with all the medical school pre-reqs added in. That's why it's about 17-19 hours per semester.

My school has it called bio-mechanical. (In mechanical engineering dept) It design like artificial bones and nano technology for medical use.

[mom31257]

We picked middle son up at the airport today and had a blast listening to stories and answers to questions on the drive home (+ lunch). I thought some on here might want to know his thoughts on pre-med... at least at a Top 50 school.

 

1) BE PREPARED. He took Calc and AP levels of Bio and Chem here at home and all within his junior and senior years of high school (did both Chem and Bio over those two years). He's seen peers try to tackle those classes unprepared (some due to having AP Bio way too early to be remembered well) and they've ended up having to work much more (he still had to work as the college classes are generally beyond AP level) AND they have ended up with lower grades. GPA means a TON for pre-med. You can NOT be over-prepared. At best, you know it all already and get an easy A. This is NOT a bad thing for pre-med wannabes. It far beats the stress of getting a B (or worse) in one of these classes.

 

 

 

 

If you have a child you think might end up wanting to go to medical school, what science sequence would you suggest for high school, or even middle school and beyond?

[Kathy in Richmond]

I've been enjoying this discussion and thought I'd add a couple of anecdotes about two of my nephews who are on a med school track, albeit through nontraditional routes.

 

One nephew always wanted to be a doctor & went to Notre Dame where he actually majored in premed science (probably not a good idea in retrospect!). He had a mixture of A and B grades during his four years there and tried his hand at the MCATs twice. He applied to several med schools during his senior year, but got into none at all. So, after graduating with his BS, he took some time off and did two main things. First, he studied hard and brought up his MCAT score on his third and final try. Second, he spent the majority of his time shadowing doctors and working at a low wage job in the Cleveland Clinic. Afterwards, he put in a new round of medical school applications and had improved results with several interviews and two acceptances. He's now in his second year of med school studies at almost 25 years old, is working harder than ever before, and is loving his life!

 

Our second nephew was not so gung-ho about becoming a doctor from an early age. He attended Harvard where he took lots of AP credits in math and science so as never to have to study them again! He majored in French literature and spent four years as a writer for the Crimson newspaper. Only when he became close to graduating did he get the medical bug. He spent a summer shadowing doctors and working in a medical clinic in New Orleans before taking the plunge. Now he's on the long term track: working to support himself, studying for MCATs (fortunately he's very adept at standardized testing), doing medical volunteer work and more shadowing, and also taking a full load of math & science in a post-bac program at a college back home (including repeating all those courses he AP'd out of years ago). He has to live with mom & dad to make all of this feasible, but he's willing to do whatever it takes. By the time he begins medical school, he'll be about 25 years old. But he's very determined and I'd be surprised if he doesn't make it happen.

[LMV]

If you have a child you think might end up wanting to go to medical school, what science sequence would you suggest for high school, or even middle school and beyond?

 

Our oldest daughter is considering medical school. I think having a mom who is a physician has given her a slightly different perspective on it all. She also seems to have a real passion for bench research and may just go the PhD route [but she is such a "people person" and compassionate soul I'm not sure I completely see that working for her].

 

She has done home hybrid dual enroll options since she was in 8th grade initially with a high school that had a school within a school gifted charter which followed a block university model and now with a local 4-year university. She took AP Bio/ AP Chem/ AP Physics in sequential years starting in what the school is considering her freshman year. Her physics course was actually taken on the college campus through a special arrangement and she also took a college level statistics course the fall of her junior year and a microbiology course the spring of her junior year. She just completed a college Genetics course and she will be taking a Physiology there this spring. I think a solid foundation in biology, chemistry, and physics is essential. Our daughter took the AP route because it was offered and solid option for her. She took the additional coursework because it was interesting to her and she was capable. As long as the student has a solid foundation I think they can take many different paths to get there.

 

As far as repeating courses I think it really depends on the student and the school. Our daughter's current plan is to accept the offered credits for her AP sciences and the science credits she will be able to transfer. She contemplated taking organic chemistry at the local university this fall but I discouraged her from doing that because I felt it would be better for her to take it at her matriculating institution. I felt this would be better both for medical school applications and for getting comfortable in the material and how things are approached at her institution since she likely be taking more advanced upper level chemistry and biology courses. She is interested in molecular biology or biochemistry as major fields of study. In her case, transferring in some of her basic sciences credits will give her more time to devote to her upper level classes (and hopefully some time for some independent bench research) which I think will benefit her. She will be competing in a D1 sport as well so I do worry about balance. However, she has definitely learned how to prioritize and manage her time throughout her high school experience and her dad and I are optimistic these skills will carry over into college.

[creekland]

 

If you have a child you think might end up wanting to go to medical school, what science sequence would you suggest for high school, or even middle school and beyond?

 

 

The main thing that has helped middle son is to load on the sciences he more or less needs in the last two years of high school as doing so keeps his brain fresher for his college classes. Friends of his who took AP Bio and/or AP Chem their freshman or sophomore year wish they had delayed those until later. They did well in those AP classes (often 5s on the tests), but the brain just tends to get rusty on what it's not using.

 

What my guy did for science (since 7th grade)

 

7th Apologia General Science

8th Apologia Physical Science

9th Apologia Biology (first book)

10th Apologia Chem (first book)

11th Microbio 201 (DE at cc)

Apologia Chem (second book, first half)

Campbell Bio (AP text, first half)

 

12th Apologia Physics (both books)

Apologia Biology (second book - this is Anatomy and Physiology - don't skip this for pre-med!

Find another text if you don't care for Apologia)

Apologia Chem (second book, second half)

Campbell's Bio (second half)

 

He feels well prepared. The only thing "I" would have done differently would have been to buy Zumdahl's (sp?) Chem text - the one generally used for AP - for him rather than, or perhaps in addition to, Apologia's 2nd book - just so he would have been at the same baseline as everyone else who had competed it. In general though, my guy gives high marks for Apologia's foundations and liked their style so we stuck with them. He especially feels their Anatomy book did a great job of preparation for him - they went deeper than he has gone in his Brain and Cognitive Science class as far as anatomy has been concerned and he appreciates that (less to need to study).

 

In reality, it doesn't matter which publisher you choose as long as the content is deep enough and the subject matter is fresh enough to build off of. In order to do so much science in his last two years we frontloaded some other courses (like History - he did nothing for History his junior year and only did Economics/Gov't - easy stuff - his senior year).

[kroe1]

Great posts! I am from a family where everyone is a physician, yet the paths to get there were all different. One never had high school science and only took undergraduate prerequisites, while others had undergraduate science degrees. Everyone has two things in common, however: a super high G.P.A. and something that makes him stand out from the crowd. For example, one did mission work in South Africa, one was a senior VP of an insurance company, and one dropped out of high school to be a restaurant manager. He was also a homeless person for a year. That was my oldest son. None of my family was a cookie-cutter medical student, so it was easy for everyone to get accepted. Uniqueness, coupled with a high GPA, was all that was needed.

 

Side note, all did well on the MCAT also. I guess I should have said 3 things in common.