Do you explain the finality of decisions?

[JeneralMom]

DS9 asked me if we were going to have beer and pizza after this baby is born like we did after DD3 was born (at home). I explained to him that I was going to have to go to the hospital this time. He asked if I had to have a c-section and when I said "yes" he wanted to know why. I explained that I had a really big cyst that might make labouring at home more dangerous (it is so big, if it burst it will require an emergency c-section because uterus will flood with blood) and that I needed to have it taken out. I also said that I was going to have tubes tied. Well, he absolutely freaked out. I thought it was because he was scared about me going in for surgery, but turns out it is over the tubal. Somehow in his cosmology he has come up with the idea that there are just babies out there waiting to be born and somehow if I have my tubes tied the babies who have been waiting to be born into our family for "soooooo looooooong" will just dissipate and cease to exist. He does actually know and understand how babies are made and we are not a religious family, this idea is just something he has come up with and will not be convinced otherwise. He cries so hard at the idea.

 

Would you go into all the reasons that your decision is final or just break his heart and say "this is our decision and it is final?" It is hard for me because I would have more but DH is done. DH's reasons make perfect sense (age, finances, time, energy, etc). Everyone I've spoken to in real life (who know DS9) says we should just go ahead and have one more, but I don't think that will satisfy him. He's always said he wants 10 brothers and sisters.

 

I feel so bad for my poor baby but I cannot let my reproductive decisions be dictated by a 9 and a 7 year old (oh yeah, DS9 has recruited DS7 to his side, so I am getting it from both of them, and the girls are chiming in too - they claim DH and I have been out voted). I actually yelled "my uterus is not a democracy" at them yesterday.

[Rosy]

I actually yelled "my uterus is not a democracy" at them yesterday.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

I will only explain things to my kids when they're in the right frame of mind to listen. In your situation I would probably only go as far as "Daddy and I decided that this will be our last baby. I have a cyst so I have to have a doctor with me when the baby is born, so we'll be at the hospital, but probably only for a day. We aren't having any more kids because we want to be the best possible parents for you guys." End of discussion until they are asking from a desire to gain understanding.

[IsabelC]

I actually yelled "my uterus is not a democracy" at them yesterday.

Sorry, this is absolutely right, but I had a little giggle anyway.

 

Wow, what a difficult situation. Nobody else can tell you with certainty how you should handle your child and his emotions, but can I respectfully suggest that you ignore the advice to have another baby on account of your son? Seriously, that is insane (would these people be suggesting a termination if your 9yo changed his mind part way through?!). The only people who should be making this decision are you and your husband.

 

Obviously I don't know your son, but my first instinct would be not to go into all the reasons for your decision in detail. Firstly, you do not have to justify it to your children. Secondly, if you explain all the reasons and your bright young man comes up with counter arguments, where do you do from there? It's probably best not to give him an opportunity to think this is up for negotiation.

 

As for what to do about his upset feelings, that will depend a lot on your past experience of how he processes things. For some kids, just getting them to understand the facts (ie, you do not believe that potential babies are floating around in the ether waiting to join your family) is enough. Other kids will need a way to divert the focus. Eg, you and he might like to develop a new story where the potential babies choose a different family where the parents have been longing for a child, because they know you already have enough beautiful children in your house. If you're open to getting a pet (or another pet), that might be another possibility, so he could have his "baby" to care for.

 

Also, he probably needs plenty of reassurance at this time. He says it's the tubal that's upsetting him, but it's possible that he is also scared of you going in for surgery (either he's too macho to admit it, or he doesn't even realize himself how he's feeling). After all, the prospect of another little person to take up your attention, combined with you needing to go to hospital when you didn't last time, is a pretty big thing for him, whether he realizes it or not.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Hotdrink

[LucyStoner]

life (who know DS9) says we should just go ahead and have one more, but I don't think that will satisfy him.

 

I actually yelled "my uterus is not a democracy" at them yesterday.

 

First, being told to have just one more for your son is just wacky. What the heck sort of advice is that? Ok son, we were done but since you want another sibling we'll go for it just because you want us to? Creepy advice IMO.

 

And yeah, it's not a democracy.

 

You can explain as much or as little as you like but I would not go into defending yourself with your children of your family size.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Somehow in his cosmology he has come up with the idea that there are just babies out there waiting to be born and somehow if I have my tubes tied the babies who have been waiting to be born into our family for "soooooo looooooong" will just dissipate and cease to exist.

 

This is a big part of the belief system in the LDS church. Maybe he heard it from a friend? Personally I don't subscribe to the idea the yet-to-be-born souls just go away but that's me.

 

What is his reaction to the idea that the babies go to other families?

 

I actually yelled "my uterus is not a democracy" at them yesterday.

 

My dd loves this. She swears no grandbabies for me and said "I'm going to use that line when I'm an adult and you're nagging me for babies". My response? "At what point in time did you mistake this family for a democracy. It's a dictatorship and I'm the dictator. I will be a grandma, no matter what your views on the matter are."

 

It's all in good fun. Except the idea that I won't be a grandma.

[Snow]

 

I will only explain things to my kids when they're in the right frame of mind to listen. In your situation I would probably only go as far as "Daddy and I decided that this will be our last baby. ... We aren't having any more kids because we want to be the best possible parents for you guys." End of discussion until they are asking from a desire to gain understanding.

 

:iagree:

 

I think it's a topic to discuss in brief now, and one to return to later after he has adjusted to the idea. Now, i would sympathize that babies are fun and cute and it is exciting to think of the possibilities but that you have already had the 4 (?) best children in the world and just couldnt ask for anything more. In the future I would probably discuss the massive responsibility with bringing children into the world and invite discussion about what he wants his family to look like when he grows up.

[JeneralMom]

I think my IRL friends were only jokingly suggesting that we have one more (other than the one whose DH had a V after their last baby and they both regret it), but they have been subjected to his giant blue puppy-dog eyes. He was already upset at me that it turned out not to be twins because I promised him that if it was twins he could be responisble for "wearing" one of them when we were out doing stuff. I know it is weird to say but he is incredibly maternal, and babies and animals flock to him.

 

I think he might just really be stressed about the idea of surgery and me leaving him. He did come to me the other day and ask me if I knew that sometimes mommies die when they go to the hospital to have babies. Thank you whichever little friend told him that.

 

I had no idea that his self developed cosomology was LDS. We don't have any LDS friends who have kids who would have told him about it.

[justLisa]

This is adorable, sad, and funny all at the same time.

 

:grouphug: I'm sure you will figure it out

[justamouse]

I have a friend, who at 42, was begged by her oldest dd to have another--and so they did.

 

She will tell you flat out it was the best thing they had ever done, that oldest changed so dramatically from selfish to nurturing that it's almost like they have a different child.

 

Kids are weird.

 

You very rarely regret the ones you have. You do regret the ones you don't have.

[Durriyyah]

I would try to explain a little further, and if it fails (which it sounds like it might) just tell them they'll understand when they are older. Really, they probably will understand when they are older. :)

[Just Another Jen]

I have a friend, who at 42, was begged by her oldest dd to have another--and so they did.

 

She will tell you flat out it was the best thing they had ever done, that oldest changed so dramatically from selfish to nurturing that it's almost like they have a different child.

 

Kids are weird.

 

You very rarely regret the ones you have. You do regret the ones you don't have.

 

Thanks- I needed to hear this today.

[1bassoon]

I'm going to gently, respectfully suggest that maybe your sweet guy was given too much information to handle.

 

Have you ever heard the illustration that Corrie Ten Boom shared? She was asking her father a hard question, and instead of answering, he asked her to pick up his very heavy suitcase. When she could not, he replied that the knowledge she was asking for was simply too heavy for her to carry; he needed to carry it for her until she was strong enough to handle it.

 

For my family and my parenting, discussion of birth control choices and surgery in such detail is left to my older teens. The younger ones are told more generic, age-appropriate, simple details.

 

I'm not sure that this is helpful, but perhaps that image of the suitcase may help you at times when you feel the information you need to share might be too much for his tender heart. He sounds like a sweet boy.

[Snow]

Have you ever heard the illustration that Corrie Ten Boom shared? She was asking her father a hard question, and instead of answering, he asked her to pick up his very heavy suitcase. When she could not, he replied that the knowledge she was asking for was simply too heavy for her to carry; he needed to carry it for her until she was strong enough to handle it.

 

This is a wonderful image, thanks for sharing.

[JeneralMom]

I'm going to gently, respectfully suggest that maybe your sweet guy was given too much information to handle.

 

Have you ever heard the illustration that Corrie Ten Boom shared? She was asking her father a hard question, and instead of answering, he asked her to pick up his very heavy suitcase. When she could not, he replied that the knowledge she was asking for was simply too heavy for her to carry; he needed to carry it for her until she was strong enough to handle it.

 

For my family and my parenting, discussion of birth control choices and surgery in such detail is left to my older teens. The younger ones are told more generic, age-appropriate, simple details.

 

I'm not sure that this is helpful, but perhaps that image of the suitcase may help you at times when you feel the information you need to share might be too much for his tender heart. He sounds like a sweet boy.

 

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately) my kids are never happy with the simple or generic answer. They want all the details and if we didn't give them the details he, especially, would have imagined all kinds of horrible things.

 

If he brings it up again I may try somethig generic and see if it puts him off for a while. The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that he may be obsessing on it as a way to divert his fear of the surgery. I wonder if he things that if I am not going to get my tubes tied then I won't have the c-section. Maybe need to address that with him.

[ELITEANDLOVINGIT]

That's a tough one, but if he is a science minded child at all, then you should just say this is the safest and best thing for mommy this time and the doctors have said this the last one I can have...(if that is how you feel and what you are thinking).

 

Beyond that you might try to ask him if he has questions about the hospital, or if he is feeling any certain way..I like to use the book "Today I feel like a warm fuzzy"...its got that groovy early 80s feel to it with expressions. When my daughter was young I just let her pick out a feeling and we'd read it together. She typically picked one that reflected her mood about a situation and we were able to move forward.

 

This is a BIG, HUGE thing for a little guy...just love on him.

[TranquilMind]

I have a friend, who at 42, was begged by her oldest dd to have another--and so they did.

 

She will tell you flat out it was the best thing they had ever done, that oldest changed so dramatically from selfish to nurturing that it's almost like they have a different child.

 

Kids are weird.

 

You very rarely regret the ones you have. You do regret the ones you don't have.

 

I'm with you, justamouse. Out of the mouths of babes...

 

My kid has always said stuff that sounded oddly weird and wise coming from a young child. He used to spontaneously give me advice about how to handle things that really weren't in his natural level to understand; it was oddly like an older person was talking to me. He's been right about so much. I listen.

 

Just yesterday he told me that he wishes I had had a younger brother for him. So do I, actually (but in my 50's now, so...)

 

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this. How does your husband really feel about it?

[JeneralMom]

I'm with you, justamouse. Out of the mouths of babes...

 

My kid has always said stuff that sounded oddly weird and wise coming from a young child. He used to spontaneously give me advice about how to handle things that really weren't in his natural level to understand; it was oddly like an older person was talking to me. He's been right about so much. I listen.

 

Just yesterday he told me that he wishes I had had a younger brother for him. So do I, actually (but in my 50's now, so...)

 

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this. How does your husband really feel about it?

 

 

I think my DH is DONE. Part of his issue is time. When we had our first three, we were in grad school and we were 50/50 parents...so when I was at school or work he had kids, when I was home he was at school or work. When DD3 came along, I was home full time and he worked full time, and he thinks he missed out on a lot and that she was not as close to him as the others. This is not true, in actuality, she may be more clingy and needy with him and went through a "daddy only" phase. Well here there is so much demand on his time and energy that he leaves at 6:50 am and is rarely home before 7:30pm so he is starting to feel really distanced from the kids. He even said yesterday that it seems he is totaly un-needed at home and that we have such a routine down that he feels useless and like he is nothing but a paycheck (not true, but he had been traveling for a month and has jet lag so I am cutting him some slack). His big worry is that with his new time demands he will not "know" this baby the way he "knows" the others, and that he will be even further removed from future ones.

 

Also, we are 40. His mom, who he always considered really old when she had him, was 40 and his dad was 50. They both passed away when he was young (19 for his dad, 21 for his mom) from diseases, but it really plays on his mind that we will not be here for our children and grandchildren if we keep having more.

 

DS9 hasn't mentioned it today, but he did get to hold a friend's new born baby so he may have gotten his little squishy fix. He really is such a good big brother. My DD3, almost from the moment she was born, has loved to sleep on him. To this day she still sleeps on him most nights.

[SKL]

Personally, I don't think your child gets a say in this matter. He should not think so, either.

 

When my kids try to push for something that is not in their scope of influence, I tell them that is a decision for adults to make, and that when they are adults, they get to make that decision for themselves. If your son desires 20 children, he can pursue that desire for himself when the time is right.

 

I don't know how much info I would have given my child at 9yo. Mine are younger than that, but one of them does like to ask questions until she gets way into sensitive territory. At some point the information becomes too much for the age/maturity. My kids are young enough that I can give an accurate scientific answer in terms that go over their heads. Then they say "oh" and move on. ;)

 

Either way, on matters involving my sex life (or lack thereof :lol:), children have no place in the conversation. They get to know if I'm pregnant, but that's the extent of it.

 

ETA: If I were married and all that, and my kid asked me about having another child, I think I would tell her that I won't because there are more risks for the baby and mother after age 40. That's why I adopted at 40 in the first place. Of course I would only say this if I were sure of not getting pregnant.

Edited November 13, 2012 by SKL

[Night Elf]

I wouldn't go into details but I would try to say something final like this decision has to be made by both adults and is about what is best for the whole family. I'd say our family feels complete and more babies would be too much for your family to handle. But agree that babies are special and you love them and that you look forward to one day being a grandparent. You may even have to say that the subject is no longer open for discussion if he doesn't let it go.

 

:grouphug:

[Cera]

I would probably do a combination of the two. Tell him it's final but tell him why you have made that decision.

[mirth]

Since he is 9yo and it is appropriate in your family to discuss medical procedures to this extent, the long and short of it is that subsequent c-sections are major surgery (they just are; it's not merely "considered" major surgery when someone slices you abdomen open) and carry very real risks. Those risks are yours alone to bear. Whomever else's opinion you choose to weigh in is your choice to make, maybe that of your husband's and to a much smaller extent -- anyone else's. Yes, I am suggesting you tell your son and daughter their opinion has been noted in this decision. And leave it at that.

 

As for me, I couldn't even respond to or make jokes about me absolving my perennial responsibility to serve as a risk-free baby factory. I personally just couldn't address it more than above.

Edited November 13, 2012 by mirth

[DarlaS]

Maybe you could tell him that the babies waiting to be born have plenty of other options and will surely find good homes. ;)

 

:iagree:

 

They will wait patiently for him to grow up and get married. ;)

[fairfarmhand]

I would try to explain a little further, and if it fails (which it sounds like it might) just tell them they'll understand when they are older. Really, they probably will understand when they are older. :)

:iagree:

 

"I think it is great that you want more siblings. You are going to be a wonderful daddy. When you grow up, you will understand what a big responsibility being a parent is, and you will understand our decision."

 

Then I'd explain a bit more about eggs and sperm, etc.

[Haiku]

First of all, who are these people who are telling you to have another baby because your son wants one? They need to MTOB.

 

Second, the only people who have a say in how many babies you have are you and your husband. Your son needs to know that right now. No beating around the bush, no sitting on the fence, no indication in any way that how he feels has any actual bearing on your reproductive life.

 

I'm generally not opposed to explaining things to kids, but I do it once, and then we are done. I do not have repeated, drawn-out conversations about things, especially not about things that the child in question really has no business sticking his nose into.

 

Were it me I would acknowledge (once more) your son's feelings of sadness. I'd say something like, "Son, I know that you are sad that we won't have any more babies. Sometimes it's hard to accept decisions that we don't like." Then I would remind him that he's out of his league. "The decision about whether to have babies, or how many babies, is an adult decision only. It's not open to negotiation with the children." Then I would give him a hug, send him on his way, and never discuss it with him again.

 

Tara

Edited November 14, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator
subject-verb agreement

[kama]

I would be inclined to think he is stressed about the surgery and worried about you and the baby and he just latched on to this as something that is easy to rationalize without venturing into talking about the things that are really upsetting him because those things are hard and frightening to talk about.

 

 

I think going into more details might just upset him more or make him think it is up for negotiation. If he is already worried about this any of the reasons you give might end up giving him a whole new set of worries.

 

If he cries I would just acknowledge his feelings "I can see you are sad about this, would you like a hug?" or maybe talk about all the exciting things about having a new baby come into your life, and that it is disappointing that there won't be another sibling to meet but that maybe someday he will have children and nieces and nephews to greet.

[TexasRachel]

This is a big part of the belief system in the LDS church. Maybe he heard it from a friend?

 

I just needed to correct this. It's not a LDS belief. We believe that there are souls waiting to be born and without getting into to much doctrine, how many out there is something God deals with. But it does sound to me like that maybe he overheard something and tried to figure out his own personal belief system. Are you non practicing religious or atheist/agnostic? Because it sounds to me like you need to have a discussion on the soul and what your DS believes in. But as far as how many children you have that's something you and your DH decide. I would just say to DS that after looking at everything and considering having another child, you and DH have decided to not have anymore. But if DS feels like there are more people waiting for your family then he's welcome to bring them in. A 10 yo is not capable of understanding the magnitude of having a child to raise so no he doesn't get a vote. And if he still wants to argue, I can call you at 2:00am when my 2 month old is crying and let him know just one of the many difficult time of raising a child.;)

[Parrothead]

but turns out it is over the tubal. Somehow in his cosmology he has come up with the idea that there are just babies out there waiting to be born and somehow if I have my tubes tied the babies who have been waiting to be born into our family for "soooooo looooooong" will just dissipate and cease to exist. He does actually know and understand how babies are made and we are not a religious family, this idea is just something he has come up with and will not be convinced otherwise. He cries so hard at the idea.

I'd work on this.