Guest submarines Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 If the relationship is the most important thing, then let the requests go for now. Don't ask them to do things for you (or what they'll perceive as for you). It seems pretty obvious your kids are trying to hurt you on purpose. My question would be why? In my experience, people hurt other people when they feel they've been hurt themselves. It's a kind of "payback" mentality, or "revenge," or, if you will, "justice." What do you think would happen if you started to treat your kids like you would treat new roommates? Do you think they would feel less imposed upon? Do you think that would help them learn to trust you again? I don't mean to suggest you have imposed on them for years, but if they perceive it that way, then you can respond to that. You can respond by stepping back for the sake of their sense of security. If restoring the relationship is more important than them being compliant, then let that go. Make sense? :iagree: Yes to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I'm sorry you're hurting. :grouphug: I don't have a teen yet, but my oldest (DS9) has been a very challenging child. We're in a much better place now, but for years he was extraordinarily defiant, disrespectful, and physically and verbally abusive (he has since been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, which explains some - but not all - of the difficulties we've experienced). Although I imagine it's even more difficult with teens, I do know how painful that kind of behavior and rejection from your child can be. Some thoughts: Teens crave independence. I watched a fantastic video lecture by a child psychologist a while back (wish I could remember his name) who talked about the dynamics between teens and their parents. In a nutshell, his premise was that up until about 200 years ago, kids were out on their own by the time they turned 13 (often earlier). Only in the last 150-200 years have we kept kids home longer - basically extending their childhood to 18, and often into their 20's. But that internal drive for independence hasn't changed, and so the friction we now see between parents and teens has to do with the fact that teens see themselves (and want to function as) adults, but we continue to treat them like kids well past the point at which they no longer see themselves as such. This is often one of the root causes of teen disrespect and defiance. Of course, there are good reasons for giving our kids longer to mature - but they don't necessarily see or appreciate that. How this might apply to your situation: Find ways to give your kids more independence. Let them be in charge of their meals, clothes, transportation (at least the 16 yo), and as much of their lives as possible. The more they're in charge, the less there is for them to argue with you about - and the more freedom that gives you. Of course, the way in which you deliver and communicate this "freedom" is important - they need to feel that you truly feel they're ready for more independence (rather than feeling like "mom doesn't want to do XYZ for us anymore"). Punishment doesn't work. I totally agree with justamouse and other previous posters on this one. Removing more and more privileges, cleaning out rooms except for the bare necessities, taking the door off the hinges, etc. just works to erode your relationship with your kids and wear you down. Instead of punishment, I would focus on training your kids to treat you right - what has worked for us is "I'll be glad to discuss that when you can ask me respectfully" or something along those lines. Of course, delivered with a smile on your face. ;) Don't punish the disrespect - use it as an opportunity to continuously reinforce "the right way to talk to mom". It will take awhile, but eventually it will likely sink in. Don't engage and put everything back on them. When they yell or say something nasty to you, just say "You sound upset. Let's take a break and we can discuss this later" and then leave. By refusing to engage, you diffuse the power struggle and make it unsatisfying for your kids to continue to try to goad you in this way. If you don't play along, it's no fun for them anymore - and it will eventually stop. Focus on connection. In my experience, having a strong connection with your kids is the key to parenting and discipline/training. It sounds like your connection with your kids has suffered. I can imagine that you might feel that it's impossible to establish any kind of connection with your kids in the midst of the current situation. But maybe you can find one small opportunity every day to show each child (individually) that you love them and care about them. Something that doesn't require their participation in order to happen. Maybe it's making their favorite snack and delivering it to their room, or picking up a small gift that you know they'd enjoy. Even if they initially don't seem to care (or they even reject it), all these small kindnesses will add up and will make a difference. And when we do nice things for others, we start to feel more loving towards them (weird how that works, but it does!) - so at a minimum, you'll be helping yourself remain loving towards your kids through this difficult time. Prioritize your self-care. Totally agree with previous posters on this one too. Take care of yourself, have a date night each week with your DH, make time for friends and hobbies - whatever helps you feel good about life. When your life isn't all about your kids, it's easier to weather the tough times. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1bassoon Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 TM - :grouphug: I can't even imagine the pain that you're in. Some of the things you have posted have me very, very worried about you. Please, I'm praying you get help. You clearly need it. :grouphug: I'm so, so sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awisha. Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 No advice, just lots of :grouphug: and sending good thoughts your way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookfiend Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 :grouphug: Age of Opportunity by Ted Tripp (a non-confrontive, mentoring approach with teens.) Also Mark Hamby speaks very movingly of reclaiming his relationship with his sons after years of abusive, punitive parenting. (I am not in the least implying that this has been the case in your home.) He moved to a grace based understanding of faith and family. I'm sorry for your pain. http://store.lamplighter.net/life-transforming-seminars-c144.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Only if it is coffee. I can't drink now. I haven't had a drink in 20 years. I should have not drunk back then and started now... I think I have some recollection from other discussions. Remind me. I'm not in my comfort zone right now anyway. I'm not sure what you mean. "One thing I could salvage"... what does that mean? I'd like to still have a relationship; I'd like not to be "cut off", as is recommended all the time on this forum. I'd like to have the relationship I had with my Mom, but she was a better person than me. I've had other good things, I guess. Nobody gets everything. Maybe this is what I don't get. Tranquil, I can hear your hurt in your posts. :grouphug: One thing about the cutting off parents threads go. Those parents have tried to demand love and closeness or have tried to guilt their kids into them. It doesn't work and it crosses boundaries and it drives their kids away. Some of these parents have done far worse - abuse of all kinds. I know that you've probably heard of or even read the book "Boundaries". I think this book would be helpful for you. It will help you to establish clear boundaries of respect from your children. (This is what was behind some of my earlier posts.) It will also help you to make sure that you don't cross boundaries through guilt, manipulation or control. I'm not saying that you have - I just know that when you crave something so much, it is hard to take a step back sometimes and keep those kinds of boundaries in perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 The key to relationship is the it must be between people. You sound hurt and tired and like a shell of the person you used to be. I do think your instincts about going away are right... to a point. I hope you will take time to restore yourself to someone that you want to be. Health problems that have taken away options su*k. I bet that you cannot get a job now so that you could have positive feedback from lots of people in your life. I hope you will take up a hobby and pour yourself into it. Write a novel for NaNoWriMo this November, take up quilting or painting, or just pick up a pen and start some pen and ink work. At the end of the day, they will be gone in less than five years and you need to be someone you are happy with. I hope you will start investing in yourself, and get some perspective on your kids. They are two people who are behaving selfishly because they can and it gives them power. If you are happy, you take away the power and the just because they are now big enough to do it becomes a much smaller carrot.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) You sound depressed. Your kids should not be able to make you depressed. Temporarily sad perhaps but not depressed because of their behavior. When the kids are around, do as Jean says. Ignore any requests if they are rude. Establish boundaries. Should the children become violent to the point of physically threatening you, call the police. Reward good behavior and walk away from rude outbursts. Make clear that this is your house and certain rules apply. Perhaps unlikely that this will happen but it's good to have a game plan. Is their Dad involved in their lives and what is his role? Get a hobby and get involved. Why are you alone this weekend? Do you have friends around to visit? Can you go to a show or take a walk, learn a new recipe...anything that makes you feel you are pursuing something you like. You need to care about other things than just your children because some day they will leave and you will be thankful to have a long list of things to accomplish - things you always wanted to do, books to read, etc., but you couldn't because you had to mother and teach. Edited October 20, 2012 by Liz CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicAnn Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 My kids are still young so have not experienced this sort of thing. Wanted to say my heart goes out to you. Growing up, my sister was a nightmare. Disrespectful, said terrible things, the gamut. I was better in the sense that I did well in school and did my chores, but my attitude was not good. I certainly was never as mean as your children have been to you, but one thing strikes me. When I was a teen, a part of me got some sort of sick pleasure at KNOWING my mother was upset at my behavior. She rarely could pull off the "I don't care" thing, and I often knew full well how upset I was making her. In a sick way, this pleased me because it gave me some power over her. What I am trying to say is, perhaps your children enjoy having this power over you, and when you act upset and hurt, the power imbalance is strengthened, and your position is weakened. It might help you, as others have suggested, to focus more on YOU right now. Exercise, get a puppy who loves you unconditionally, get a manicure, go out with friends. Demonstrate to them that there are people out there who DO love you, who DO respect you, and that YOU respect and love YOURSELF, and perhaps they will come to realize that their hateful attitude towards you DOESNT REALLY MATTER, because you love yourself and others love you too. And they too can be a part of that love, they too can partake of that relationship if they so choose. If not, their loss. You need to love yourself first, and treat yourself with the kind of respect and love that you want from them. You should also try to get together with girlfriends who care for you so you are reminded that you are indeed LOVEABLE. :grouphug::grouphug: :iagree: Also, I think the only way you can change them is to change your own behavior. Since it sounds like you've read a lot of books already, I think you need something else. You need someone to objectively look at your behavior and interactions. The dynamics of a relationship need to change for the relationship to improve. For the dynamics to change, you probably will need help with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I will have thousands of dollars for coffee, and not sleep for years. And still be alone. Tranquil, when I posted this earlier, I had not read some of your other replies. This does not seem to be "only" a discipline issue. You often mention that you are alone. Do you mean alone in parenting, in suffering, in trying to find solutions? Or are you truly alone and want your kids to fill this void? I understand you want a relationship with them but you don't want one that is condescending. You mentioned earlier that you made mistakes. We all made mistakes in parenting. Why do you feel so guilty about yours? You may have regrets, wish you could go back like you said in one post, but as you pointed out, you can only go forward from here - but go you must. They need to understand your boundaries. I agree with Jean about the book "Boundaries". The authors Henry Cloud and John Townsend have written one specifically for you: "Boundaries with Teens." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca VA Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) n/m Edited October 20, 2012 by Rebecca VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I'm not really getting how things got to this point. Rude and disrespectful kids don't just spring up overnight, especially ones as angry as these seem to be. And that's probably a whole lot of backstory that's none of my business. So I guess all I really have to offer is my sympathy. :grouphug: My parents raised six kids, and we all got mouthy "at times" -- no one, including 4 teen-aged boys, ever raised a hand to my parents or threatened to. They were loving, but firm in how they expected to be treated. So it sounds like something went wrong in your family somewhere along the way, and the teenage years are a tough time to attempt a fix. I like Tibbie's suggestion of recasting the relationship as one of "roommates or boarders" -- you should get at least the respect a stranger owes another. If they can't manage that, should you be doing ANYTHING for them? The family relationship doesn't give anyone license to act WORSE than they would to a complete stranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 I will tell you what I did with my son when he was 16 & perpetually unhappy and I felt it must be because I was a horrible parent somehow. When he said something provocative or refused to co-operate I would look straight at him and say, "I'm not playing that game today." *I* would have to make myself walk away, go sit in the back yard with a cup of tea, even tho' it felt like he was getting the last word. But until he came to make peace (not necessarily apologize...I was willing to accept almost any conversation starter) I would not cook for him, wash for him, or drive for him. Period. Sometimes he silence was very long, but I figured silence was better than either of us saying/doing something unforgivable out of frustration. You might choose something different to say, as in "When I get respect I will be happy to discuss this with you further." But I had to realize my reaction was feeding the problem and shortcircuit the cycle. It was more about changing me than about changing him. When he got upset, I got upset with MYSELF, but his upset wasn't even about me. Months later we were able to discuss the cycle and it turned out that a lot of it had been his own unhappiness spilling over into our relationship. We had moved and every time his friends back home got into trouble or angry, he agonized over it long distance and it all spilled out onto, guess who, the person closest to him. I didn't appreciate being his emotional dumping ground. You know, we were told that in order to train our new dog not to jump up on us, we should just fold our arms and turn our backs every time he did it. I doubted, but it REALLY worked. Try it! This was helpful. Thanks. Maybe I should have gotten a dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) . Edited October 20, 2012 by TranquilMind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 Shoot, I forgot. Coffee it is. It's basically moving away from parent/child relationship to mentor/maturing person relationship. If restoring the relationship is more important than them being compliant, then let that go. Make sense? Yes. It does make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 No advice, just lots of :grouphug: and sending good thoughts your way :iagree: :grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 True. I see what you are saying here. But what if it isn't your two year old, but your 16 year old -who can actually cook, maybe better than you - instead? How do you not give any weight to it? I'm trying so hard to be dead in the emotional realm, but I am not quite successful yet. Then he can cook for himself! If someone doesn't appreciate what I cook for them, they don't have to eat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink and Green Mom Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I read the thread last night, and I cannot get it, or you, off of my mind. My heart is breaking for you. I have tears in my eyes for you. This whole situation sounds horrifying. I hestitate saying this but here goes: as someone who has been/continues to be there, you sound like you are clinically depressed. You are suffering. These problems are just piling on you, dragging you down further. Then self-doubt creeps in, and you get dragged down further. Then suddenly nothing you can do is right and you get dragged down even further. I would highly recommend speaking to a therapist or psychiatrist. Forget about your children and just think about yourself. Please get evaluated for you. What you have described - a never ending loop - is a perfect description of depression. There is shame associated with it, I know that from personal experience. But to me, professional help is needed. And the right type of help - medicine, therapy, a combo of both - can truly change your life. Making the first call is so hard but I encourage you to please consider it. I am so, so sorry.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 thought i'd "drop in" today with virtual tea and chocolate. hope you're doing a bit better. :grouphug: ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I agree you sound clinically depressed, TM. I don't know what I would do without my Zoloft. ;) Truly it helps me just live and appreciate what I can in life, instead of being dragged down by all of the terrible stuff. Also, what about going on a long trip somewhere together, like a week or two? A cabin in the mountains or something? I've heard of that helping a lot of families, do you think that may help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) . Edited October 22, 2012 by TranquilMind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) . Edited October 22, 2012 by TranquilMind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) . Edited October 22, 2012 by TranquilMind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Pink and Green Mom: I read the thread last night, and I cannot get it, or you, off of my mind. My heart is breaking for you. I have tears in my eyes for you. This whole situation sounds horrifying. Thank you. Forget about your children and just think about yourself. Gladly! That's the best advice I heard all weekend. :001_smile: Easier said than done though. What you have described - a never ending loop - is a perfect description of depression. I was thinking more of the loop being the interactions that go south. I'm considering selective mutism now. I am so, so sorry.:grouphug: Thank you. I really do appreciate that someone cares to listen to me. I am pretty lonely lately, so thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthwestMom Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 We can't go anywhere together. No one to transport kids where they need to be. For one thing, kids who treated me that way would not get a ride ANYWHERE. I won't take it from strangers, so I won't tolerate it from family. They won't die if they have to sit home for a few days to learn how to be respectful. Or, maybe they can arrange their own rides or ride a bike or something. It can be a growth experience for them. LOL. So, free of that responsibility, go someplace with your husband and reconnect. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) . Edited October 22, 2012 by TranquilMind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Oh, I agree if it is just about my kid wanting to go somewhere fun. But this is about travel sports team obligations and school commitments. I would tell the coach that your kids can no longer participate in travel team stuff. My son is on a travel team and let me tell you, it would end tomorrow if he treated me disrespectfully on an ongoing basis. What sort of school commitments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthwestMom Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Oh, I agree if it is just about my kid wanting to go somewhere fun. But this is about travel sports team obligations and school commitments. Doesn't matter. Sports teams are completely optional. My kids would be quitting the team if they can't set up their own rides. (They'd probably also have to quit due to the costs I would no longer be covering.) Same for school. Your kids are plenty old enough to 1. Act decently and 2. Find alternate support systems (funds and rides) if they don't like the one they have. You are going to have to rock their world by ceasing to revolve your life around their "commitments". :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fairy Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Doesn't matter. Sports teams are completely optional. My kids would be quitting the team if they can't set up their own rides. (They'd probably also have to quit due to the costs I would no longer be covering.) Same for school. Your kids are plenty old enough to 1. Act decently and 2. Find alternate support systems (funds and rides) if they don't like the one they have. You are going to have to rock their world by ceasing to revolve your life around their "commitments". :grouphug: I don't know if that's true. It sounds like she has tried the nuclear options before without success. TM, I have a very difficult child who does not respond to traditional methods of discipline. It's hard when many of the suggestions are ones that you know aren't going to work because you've been there, done that (not talking about you in particular, Northwest Mom). From your posts here I've noticed that you are always very, um, certain about your pov. :tongue_smilie: Do you think some of their stubbornness is the apple falling not far from the tree? Are there things that your parents did with you that might work with them? I agree with those who say it's time for professional help. It's not normal or healthy to believe (or even say) that it would have been better if you had died when you were sick. And not only is this killing your spirit, but you don't want them treating their spouses and children the way they are treating you. It needs to change for for the sake of all of you. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I read the thread last night, and I cannot get it, or you, off of my mind. My heart is breaking for you. I have tears in my eyes for you. This whole situation sounds horrifying. I hestitate saying this but here goes: as someone who has been/continues to be there, you sound like you are clinically depressed.... What you have described - a never ending loop - is a perfect description of depression. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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