Anybody pay a decent standard of living anymore?

[TranquilMind]

My husband is looking for a job after more than 10 years with the same company. He's done an excellent job according to all of his reviews and has been told he is one of the best in the business according to his company and other companies he works with. Due to odd curcumstances beyond his control, his pay is being cut 20%. The company is doing fine financially. This salary will put us in food shelf status in our town along with a bunch of other low income helps. Does anyone pay a decent standard of living anymore? I'm beyond frustrated.

 

Beth

 

That's horribly frustrating, especially when you see the CEO and other top salaries, bonuses and benefits companies award.

 

My husband's company has cut people left and right, and continued to keep salaries contained yet the top few are getting a new floor-total gut and upgrade, and new restrooms for themselves, as well as nice big bonuses. Even new elevators, so that they need not be contaminated by the masses.

 

I'm sorry. Looks like the way to go is to be creating our own businesses, because "the man" sure isn't going to take care of anyone but himself (except for that rare "man").

 

Ugh.

[TranquilMind]

:iagree:

 

We STILL have people calling/e-mailing DH with jobs for a Chinese linguist and we have to turn them down. When they find out his wife used to be a military Chinese linguist, they ask if *I* want the job. I'm a sure thing b/c I was in the military, received the proper training, and most importantly, they KNOW I am clearable. We just tell them no thank you, I'm busy being a mom, but if that changes, we'll let them know. We do offer to let all of our linguist friends know, but they are either still in the military, or already have government jobs.

 

As long as I keep up my Chinese (which I have to admit, I'm not working at it, at all) I can re-enter the work force with a starting salary of AT LEAST $80K. (I AM teaching it to DS, and have him in Chinese class, so I do a *little* upkeep, but I REALLY need to break open my DLI books!!)

 

That's why we are always telling "kids" to either join the military or explore areas/fields that need people trained in certain skill sets that not everyone has, or can go to school for. I'm sorry, but if you go to college to get a skill set that every one and their brother has, or can be outsourced, then you will have a hard time finding a job, much less a job that pays a good salary and offers great benefits.

 

Yet, every time we meet/talk to a young person going off to college and ask/hear what they are majoring in, we hear: Business, Law, Accounting, Music... or my FAVORITE, "I'm not sure yet, I'm going to decide during Freshman year". :001_huh:

 

I'm all for doing what makes you happy, but doing what makes you happy won't always pay the bills, or offer good jobs, or have jobs available where you want to live and paying what you want to make... kids should be taught these things when they are planning for their future. JMHO.

 

This is definitely good advice.

[TranquilMind]

It's mostly just him although there have been some other changes. The problem also becomes is that they capped his salary at that level. Yes, he is looking pronto. Thankfully, he still has a job and is getting a very good recommendation letter from his former boss who thinks he was very much slighted.

 

Beth

 

That's when the handwriting is on the wall, so to speak.

 

Been there. I'm sorry.

[TranquilMind]

Because so many women work now, I think companies believe most people are two-income families and don't feel obligated to pay better salaries. It's rather unfortunate for those of us that don't have two incomes.

 

 

Yes, this really did hurt women in a way, financially, at least.

[Aelwydd]

For hubby's case, he can't have foreigner in his staff, all military.

Yes, there are a lot outsourcing going on in other part of company, my pervious employee and current. no doubt., but the outsourcing is no longer because it is cheap but because they can't find people here. My company move a lot job to India. Earlier on was because it is cheap. But over the years they found.1, the are not stable work force, a lot turn over. 2. They can't think. A lot hand holding. 3.nowadays it is not even that cheap anymore. I remember it was 1 to 5 10 yrs ago. But the ratio is pretty close to 1 to 1 now. Adding the traveling and building , administration...etc. so they now actually saying it is because they can't find the people here to do the Job.

i am talking specific engineering, with most master, phd degree. can't speak for other type work force.

I personally don't know any engineer out of job. They might get laid off, but all found something within 6 months

 

Scroll up and read my post to Gao. For every company or work place like your husband's, there are dozens of others laying off experienced staff and replacing them with cheaper labor. This is a widespread phenomenon. Right now, engineers have decent prospects for jobs.

 

What happens in 10 years, when a bunch of people who have noticed that, have gotten their engineering degree to go get their jobs? (Hint: the same problem that's facing a lot of newly graduated nurses, who can't seem to find work these days.) What happens when India and China and other countries produce better STEM graduates because we are failing miserably in STEM related education?

 

Answer: those jobs that can be outsourced, will be. There are many folks from other countries that will happily take a 40k a year job here, even though most American engineers would expect at least twice as much (to keep up with the cost of living). Those government or domestic-only engineer jobs that remain will quickly be filled by experienced engineers shed by other companies that have just replaced them with a bunch of 40K salaried people.

 

Now, you have a surplus of people with degrees in engineering on the market. What will that do to the overall wages of engineers over the course of a few years?

 

I've seen this pattern played in health, medicine, education, service, nursing, business, travel, mathematics, etc. Is there any reason why engineering would be impervious to the same silver bullet?

 

That's why I said the OP needs to be looking ahead 10 to 15 years. What's good now is no protection against a trend that is not so much a wave, as a devastating tsunami.

[TranquilMind]

Which double sucks for everyone really bc ideally even if they do have two incomes, the best thing is STILL to live off ONE as much as possible.

 

Right. You just never know what is going to happen. Not to mention that someone has to be with little kids, and a parent is best, and usually cheapest.

[TranquilMind]

This is how it is done. Company loyalty, long term health, slow/steady incremental growth with an eye to the future, nope...that's not company business anymore. Get rich quick schemes and who you can screw over for a $1.00 is the name of the game.

 

Make no mistake. These executives know exactly that they are doing and they do.not.care. what they do to families. They have a lord and serf mentality.

 

Faith

 

This is so true.

[TranquilMind]

Jumping in to ask a question that has been eating away at me. Salaries obviously vary widely with regard to cost of living in each area, so there isn't a clear answer, I'm sure. But what is a good living wage now?

 

I know of a company that has been searching for months - months! - for a new hire, with no luck. I don't know if the salary they are offering is simply too low, or if it's something else. FWIW, starting salary is in the $70s. That is low in this area, but this particular company foots the bill for the entire family's insurance. I think that is a huge deal, and might increase the appeal? It also involves primarily work at home - another bonus in a commute heavy area. So there are perks. As far as a degree, there are no specific requirements, they are just looking for experience in a particular field.

 

What do you all think? Would the above pass muster as a living wage?

 

It's always about the money. Even if the job is awful, someone will take it if the pay is high enough.

[TranquilMind]

It is happening to a lot of folks. My husband just got laid off -- and the company he worked for laid off 5 people due to budget cuts.

I'm sorry.

[Mom23Boys]

Drug tests are one requirement at our local nuclear plant.

I forgot that! Yes, there are pre-employment drug tests, random drug tests and drug tests after certain mistakes are made. For example, a deer ran in front of the company truck during the middle of the night. The driver hit it. A drug test was done, but the driver didn't get in trouble. He would have had he failed the test.

[TranquilMind]

Aelwydd:

In this economy, that's really good. However, I'm not stupid, and I can see that the whole direction of the country is going towards labor/ workers in the toilet, while fewer and fewer people at the top rake in the rewards. The bottom line is, no profession is safe from this trend. Not computer science, not technology, not engineering. When companies are able to get enough engineers from overseas willing to work for 40K, guess what -- that becomes the new standard of pay for everyone.

 

I'm always signing up for new training and certifications, and looking for a Master's degree program at this time. I'm also planning to get out of the country and going to another one where future economic growth is strongly predicted. The days of working for 30 years for a company, or even an industry, and then retiring are over.

 

My husband and I have been talking about this. There is no loyalty at all. Older or more skilled, higher-paid workers are dumped everyday in order to save a buck today...tomorrow be d&mned, is the attitude.

 

OP, if you are interested in the history or reasons why the days of rising wages are over, I highly recommend two economic series: "Capitalism hits the fan" by Professor Wolff, and "The Crash Course" by Chis Martensen. You can find both on YouTube. Wolff comes at the problem from the perspective of Marxism, and Martensen comes from the perspective as a capitalist, who has served as an executive in a large company. Both describe the same underlying problems and reasons for why the U.S. is in a definite decline, and why it is very unlikely we will recover any time soon.

 

These sound interesting...thanks! I agree that the decline is deep and wide and will last a long time, if not permanently. I'm SO GLAD we bought that small, affordable house instead of the nice, large one with the pool that we used to have. Sure, sometimes I miss it, but it just seemed to be the way to go, with college upcoming.

 

I remember about 15 years ago or so, a guy wrote a book called, "Prophesy", discussing what he saw coming, including the financial meltdown. He was so right.

 

 

 

I recommend these courses because you need to be looking 10 to 15 years ahead, so you and your family has an idea of what direction you need to go to get into a better place than just economic survival.

 

Yes! Agreed!

 

Economic survival, or just having a job that makes ends meet, is an insufficient goal for these times. It promises zero stability, because everyone is replaceable at just about any job. You need to be looking for a place where the demand for labor outstrips the supply, and that narrows the field considerably, and mostly outside the U.S.

 

We've been talking about moving and my daughter would like to go to college elsewhere.

 

 

I don't care how cheap or low-cost an area is--if all it offers are mediocre income jobs, 30K - 60K, the cost of living will still continue to rise and wages will continue to be stagnant, so that eventually, you'll still be priced out of even the low-cost areas.

 

True. Great post!

[TranquilMind]

Can I stand in line behind you, a la the Airplane b**ch slapping scene?

 

 

 

Of course you were flamed. A lot of Americans have their heads still stuck in the sand. They believe this country is somehow impervious, just by nature of loudly belted nationalistic country songs, and patriotic fervor, to economic disintegration from within.

 

The fact is, international corporations are the hunter, and our people, our land, our resources are their prey. Also, a public dumping ground for their financial risk. We cannot look to government to solve this, because both Republicans and Democrats are beholden to these corporations. Our military has been reduced to the role of contracted tool (through our government) for the industrialists, for the purposes of extracting resources from other weaker countries that dare to maintain the pretense of being sovereign entities. Everyone who has resources that we need or want has become a "terrorist" to be conquered. We're not nation-builders. We're nation-rapists.

 

I've stopped arguing anymore about the situation, and am just concentrating on getting my family into another country. It's a waste of time and energy to sit and debate with the yuppies on the upper deck of the Titanic, because the ship hasn't tipped their cocktails over yet. There's a limited number of lifeboats, so I leave them with the last word. Reality will hit them soon enough.

 

Au revoir, and all that.

 

I like you. ;)

 

I wish you were wrong, but I know you aren't.

[jkwynn]

nm

[jennynd]

Scroll up and read my post to Gao. For every company or work place like your husband's, there are dozens of others laying off experienced staff and replacing them with cheaper labor. This is a widespread phenomenon. Right now, engineers have decent prospects for jobs.

 

What happens in 10 years, when a bunch of people who have noticed that, have gotten their engineering degree to go get their jobs? (Hint: the same problem that's facing a lot of newly graduated nurses, who can't seem to find work these days.) What happens when India and China and other countries produce better STEM graduates because we are failing miserably in STEM related education?

 

Answer: those jobs that can be outsourced, will be. There are many folks from other countries that will happily take a 40k a year job here, even though most American engineers would expect at least twice as much (to keep up with the cost of living). Those government or domestic-only engineer jobs that remain will quickly be filled by experienced engineers shed by other companies that have just replaced them with a bunch of 40K salaried people.

 

Now, you have a surplus of people with degrees in engineering on the market. What will that do to the overall wages of engineers over the course of a few years?

 

i.

 

 

The outsource is not "will happen"' it already " happened" for engineers and like I said, they are not cheap and they are not stable. U know just because Asia countries better in math and science doesn't make them a better engineer. There are thinkers and there are worker bees. And engineer from china and India typically fall into worker bees.

U can disagree all u want. I have been in engineer field for the past 15 yrs, I saw the up and down. If u can graduate from a decent engineer school ( I know many cant get it through) I think u will be fine

[Arcadia]

Answer: those jobs that can be outsourced, will be. There are many folks from other countries that will happily take a 40k a year job here, even though most American engineers would expect at least twice as much (to keep up with the cost of living).

 

Its cheaper to offshore the job than to pay for the H1 visa. It also helps to keep corporate profits offshore.

[Arcadia]

There are thinkers and there are worker bees. And engineer from china and India typically fall into worker bees.

 

A manufacturing plant would need plenty of worker bees and a few thinkers. There are plenty of people who are willing to take an expatriate's pay to work in Asia for a couple of years.

 

If someone needs a job, they would rather have the 200 worker bee vacancies rather than the 2 to 3 thinkers vacancies. In a tough job market situation, the employer would want proof that the applicant can fulfil the thinker position.

[Aelwydd]

The outsource is not "will happen"' it already " happened" for engineers and like I said, they are not cheap and they are not stable. U know just because Asia countries better in math and science doesn't make them a better engineer. There are thinkers and there are worker bees. And engineer from china and India typically fall into worker bees.

U can disagree all u want. I have been in engineer field for the past 15 yrs, I saw the up and down. If u can graduate from a decent engineer school ( I know many cant get it through) I think u will be fine

 

You've seen the first wave of it. The trend is not finished yet. The press for cheaper labor is increasing, not decreasing. They will either outsource, or they will simply pay politicians off to pass laws that make it easier, and therefore, cheaper to gain such professionals. They will invest in programs to make transitions easier, and they will have trainings and programs aimed directly at making these hires more "stable." Because in the end, that's still cheaper (in the short term) than paying American workers the wages they are worth, *plus* increases to keep up with the cost of living, especially when multiplied by the hundred thousands of American workers affected.

 

These corporations don't care if the long term effect is that it wreaks our economy or weakens the field. That's why they strive to have international bases. They will ultimately cut their losses and go somewhere else. The U.S. government will be one of the few remaining "employers" for such fields, and even it can't survive being undercut by the loss of taxes by private businesses taking their money and fleeing.

 

Furthermore, the engineering field, like any other, is still dependent upon a viable, health economy around it. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even if it somehow remains untouched by the race to outsourcing that is affecting most other industries, what happens when there are only a few companies left to supply metal? Few to supply wood? Or computers? Or software? Or energy to run their buildings and equipment? Or universities to educate their graduates?

 

All of these fields are being effectively starved out of existence, or left limping along, by the decimation of U.S. industry at large. I don't care how much clearance you have, or how much experience as an engineer-- if your company does not have other healthy industries to supply it and to sell to, your company will either pick up and move to greener grass, or it will be acquired by another bigger business (with all the uncertainty that entails), or it will go out of business. And then you are left like everyone else. It's worse than being out of of a job -- you end up out of a profession.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Aelwydd

[Aelwydd]

I like you. ;)

 

I wish you were wrong, but I know you aren't.

 

Thanks. I wish I was wrong, too.

[jennynd]

A manufacturing plant would need plenty of worker bees and a few thinkers. There are plenty of people who are willing to take an expatriate's pay to work in Asia for a couple of years.

 

If someone needs a job, they would rather have the 200 worker bee vacancies rather than the 2 to 3 thinkers vacancies. In a tough job market situation, the employer would want proof that the applicant can fulfil the thinker position.

 

Again like I said b4, I can only speak for engineer with master and phd degree and those don't work in maufacture

[jennynd]

You've seen the first wave of it. The trend is not finished yet. The press for cheaper labor is increasing, not decreasing. They will either outsource, or they will simply pay politicians off to pass laws that make it easier, and therefore, cheaper to gain such professionals. They will invest in programs to make transitions easier, and they will have trainings and programs aimed directly at making these hires more "stable." Because in the end, that's still cheaper (in the short term) than paying American workers the wages they are worth, *plus* increases to keep up with the cost of living, especially when multiplied by the hundred thousands of American workers affected.

 

These corporations don't care if the long term effect is that it wreaks our economy or weakens the field. That's why they strive to have international bases. They will ultimately cut their losses and go somewhere else. The U.S. government will be one of the few remaining "employers" for such fields, and even it can't survive being undercut by the loss of taxes by private businesses taking their money and fleeing.

 

Furthermore, the engineering field, like any other, is still dependent upon a viable, health economy around it. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even if it somehow remains untouched by the race to outsourcing that is affecting most other industries, what happens when there are only a few left companies to supply metal? Few to supply wood? Or computers? Or software? Or energy to run their buildings and equipment? Or universities to educate their graduates?

 

All of these fields are being effectively starved out of existence, or left limping along, by the decimation of U.S. industry at large. I don't care how much clearance you have, or how much experience as an engineer-- if your company does not have other healthy industries to supply it and to sell to, your company will either pick up and move to greener grass, or it will be acquired by another bigger business (with all the uncertainty that entails), or it will go out of business. And then you are left like everyone else. It's worse than being out of of a job -- you end up out of a profession.

 

Whatever...

I don't know what I said to deserve u curse me out of my job and I don't know what is ur background make u think u have so deep understanding of the dynamic of engineer. Btw, we don't call manufacture people engineer, they are simply workers. When I say engineer worker bee, I do not mean manufacture worker. U have different definition of engineer than a real engineer.

[LisaKinVA]

Jumping in to ask a question that has been eating away at me. Salaries obviously vary widely with regard to cost of living in each area, so there isn't a clear answer, I'm sure. But what is a good living wage now?

 

I know of a company that has been searching for months - months! - for a new hire, with no luck. I don't know if the salary they are offering is simply too low, or if it's something else. FWIW, starting salary is in the $70s. That is low in this area, but this particular company foots the bill for the entire family's insurance. I think that is a huge deal, and might increase the appeal? It also involves primarily work at home - another bonus in a commute heavy area. So there are perks. As far as a degree, there are no specific requirements, they are just looking for experience in a particular field.

 

What do you all think? Would the above pass muster as a living wage?

 

A great 2nd income in No.VA. You can make it in this area on $70k, and being able to work from home is a bonus, because your choice of housing goes way, way up. Yeah, if DH didn't have to commute, we could live out in King George and do much better... PM me the industry. I have two BIL's looking for work, and I could use some income! We all have backgrounds in different industries.

[Aelwydd]

Whatever...

I don't know what I said to deserve u curse me out of my job and I don't know what is ur background make u think u have so deep understanding of the dynamic of engineer. Btw, we don't call manufacture people engineer, they are simply workers. When I say engineer worker bee, I do not mean manufacture worker. U have different definition of engineer than a real engineer.

 

I haven't cursed you with anything. :confused: I've made a prediction about the field you work in, based upon very obvious economic patterns.

 

I work in the technology field with a large company on par with Microsoft, Google, etc. I work along side engineers. I'm not ignorant about this subject. About half of the ones in our department are foreign born (mostly from India). We mostly work with supporting hardware for communications and third party software. There's no "manufacturing" going on in our department.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Aelwydd

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

So we cannot have a highly mobile culture AND have two career families AND promote home ownership, can we? We have been led to believe that owning a home is the American dream and a sign of being middle class, and not only has this been a financial nightmare for millions of Americans of late, but their "underwater mortgage" is trapping them in one small region of the country. It also suggests to me that we do not truly have "family values," since we value family so little. Forcing families to split up in different parts of the country, not giving them time for their personal life, and otherwise promoting the idea that your job should be your life, while providing zero support for the worker, strike me as signs if serious problems.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[regentrude]

 

I work in the technology field with a large company on par with Microsoft, Google, etc. I work along side engineers. I'm not ignorant about this subject. About half of the ones in our department are foreign born (mostly from India).

 

When a company hires foreign nationals, they are required to submit extensive documentation that no qualified American could be found for the job before they can obtain a work visa. The fact that half your department are foreigners means that your company could not find Americans who were qualified for the job.

 

I teach physics at a STEM university. When our department has an open position, the search is world wide. The top five candidates are invited for interviews; each candidate is spending two full days interviewing. The decision is based on very clear performance criteria, without room for subjectivity. In the last 14 years, all faculty members hired have been foreigners because they were the most qualified. In some of the searches, there were no Americans at all among the top five.

(And no, this is not the nepotism of some foreigner mafia promoting their own countrymen: almost all of the older faculty members - who make the hiring decisions- are Americans; the hires in the last 14 years are from Italy, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, and Malaysia.)

Edited September 27, 2012 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Also, I can't help noticing but your written English is rather poor. Are you, yourself, a foreign-born national? And if not, how were you able to graduate from an engineer program (which is traditionally academically difficult) with poor grammar and sentence structure? If it's because your program didn't demand high standards in English writing/ structure, it only reinforces my perception of U.S. college education as generally weak overall, and declining.

 

This sounds rather insulting.

Jennynd is Chinese and, as far as I know, did not come to the US until graduate school.

If I were as fluent in Mandarin as she is in English, I'd be very proud.

Edited September 27, 2012 by regentrude

[Alte Veste Academy]

If I were a fluent in Mandarin as she is in English, I'd be very proud.

 

:iagree:

Edited September 27, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[TravelingChris]

All I can say is that it appears we made the right career choice for my dh to prepare our children for the coming world= i.e. my board name. We subjected them to a transient life-moving every few years and sometimes, only for a few months or weeks, and they all developed a love for moving around. Since it may well be necessary in their lives in order to make a living, I guess we did right by that.

[Aelwydd]

Confucius say, dumb is person who argues endlessly with the internets. (That would be me.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This whole post edited to remove potentially offensive comments.)

Edited September 27, 2012 by Aelwydd

[VeteranMom]

Government jobs rock. I don't know about State government jobs, but Federal government jobs are awesome.

My husband is civil service. 75% of his co-workers were laid off in January. Dh is now doing the job of 3 people and hasn't received a pay raise in 2 years. Govt workers have been affected by the lousy economy, too.

[Aelwydd]

When a company hires foreign nationals, they are required to submit extensive documentation that no qualified American could be found for the job before they can obtain a work visa. The fact that half your department are foreigners means that your company could not find Americans who were qualified for the job.

 

I teach physics at a STEM university. When our department has an open position, the search is world wide. The top five candidates are invited for interviews; each candidate is spending two full days interviewing. The decision is based on very clear performance criteria, without room for subjectivity. In the last 14 years, all faculty members hired have been foreigners because they were the most qualified. In some of the searches, there were no Americans at all among the top five.

(And no, this is not the nepotism of some foreigner mafia promoting their own countrymen: almost all of the older faculty members - who make the hiring decisions- are Americans; the hires in the last 14 years are from Italy, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, and Malaysia.)

 

Regentrude, and? This is actually a point I made earlier. I don't think I've stated anywhere that the foreign nationals hired in weren't qualified, or even highly qualified, for the job. I said that the state of STEM programs in the U.S. is such that it's becoming difficult for our graduates to compete. I also said that even with all the documentation and the cost of hiring them, it is still a better deal when they can pay them much less. My department's engineers are comprise of a group of very intelligent people, some American, some not. The point I'm debating with Jennymd is whether the trend towards nationals is increasing, and whether that means a pay decrease.

 

I stand my point, too, that even if engineering remains immune to a trend affecting most other major industries, engineering does not exist in a vacuum. If other supporting industries around it are either picking up and leaving, failing, or slashing wages and workers, how exactly is engineering going to remain unaffected? Engineering companies still rely on the industries of banking, education, business, energy, and so forth. They are also affected by the health system, and the housing industry.

 

It's possible I'm completely off base, and that somehow, while the rest of the economy is in decline and is falling apart, engineers will somehow remain unaffected and continue to enjoy job security and increasing wages. But, short of some sort of miracle, I really don't see how it could remain untouched. Nothing else seems to be.

[regentrude]

I also said that even with all the documentation and the cost of hiring them, it is still a better deal when they can pay them much less. .

 

But in order to obtain visa, the department and HR actually have to submit proof that they will pay them the same salaries as they pay Americans for the same work. Otherwise, they won't get visas. (We've been through this at our department every single time we hire.)

[stripe]

John Pickle Company claimed they'd give their Indian workers similar conditions, too. But then they ended up enslaving them in Oklahoma. Of course, they were finally freed.

 

But then, so many companies want to know your past salary history. I cannot imagine they don't use it to "match."

 

And there is a gender gap in earnings. "[E]ven when controlling for factors like education, men who transitioned to women earned, on average, 32% less after the surgery. Women who became men, on the other hand, earned 1.5% more."

 

(Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html#ixzz27dJkLewe )

 

 

And I am shocked, shocked to report that, despite having cleaned out my inbox in preparation for the arrival of job data, I have received so far zero PMs with job leads.

[Aelwydd]

But in order to obtain visa, the department and HR actually have to submit proof that they will pay them the same salaries as they pay Americans for the same work. Otherwise, they won't get visas. (We've been through this at our department every single time we hire.)

 

Sure, the starting base salary is approx. the same. But our company is quite frank that compensation is based upon experience, credentials, and work performance. That means there is a wide variation in terms of actual salaries for the same position. Not every gets a raise or a bonus. Not everyone gets other incentives. Furthermore, my company often doesn't hire new people immediately, but takes them on as contractors first, who are definitely paid a lot less. (Ask me how I know.) It's very easy for them to contract engineers (and other job positions) for several months, even years, before hiring them on at the same wages as everyone else. That doesn't seem right to me.

[Aelwydd]

You know what, I don't know how this discussion even got derailed into the viability of American engineering. I do not mean to offend others with my views on the military-industrial complex, and how it affects our economy. Also, I don't mean any insult to Jennymd, and my questions about her post were not meant to be degrading. I was taken aback by some of her comments, but I honestly was not angry, and I did not ask my questions of her with the intent to attack or to insult. As I said to Regentrude, I was confused as to why she expressed herself as such and where she was coming from (figuratively, not literally).

 

That said, this medium is a really difficult at times to find the right words to get one's meaning across, without causing hurt feelings. I'm really very sorry to have caused anyone hurt, either Alte Vista or Jennymd, and I'll remove my comments that were offensive. I hope others will edit anything they quoted from me.

 

My entire point on this thread has been buried, I'm sure, but it's basically this: I feel that there really are extremely few "safe" industries to work for anymore, and that the situation is going to get worse for a long time, before it improves. Whether that field is medicine, science, engineering, teaching, whatever, I expect almost everyone will feel the pinch, and I don't see any easy way through or around it. My only advice to the OP is and remains this: be looking and planning 10 to 15 years down the road.

[butterflymommy]

DH does well, he is in the business side of the entertainment industry.

 

DH has a SIL making 6 figures as a speech therapist-- and she was making that within 2 years of getting her degree. This is between a full time position paying 90k plus freelancing.

 

The other high paid people I know personally are in law or STEM careers.

 

Some unionized jobs (like teaching and law enforcement), when you count the benefits, pay well.

 

One of DD's occupational therapists for EI said she was always turning down job offers. Part time she was making 50k.

 

There is another board I post on where this question comes up from time to time, and most people making a decent living are in finance, business, medicine, or STEM including IT.

[QueenCat]

We moved far from family. It's very hard. It's just the four of us far away from everyone. I don't like that part, but it was either stick around and not have many options or go where the options are.

 

This is where we learned to "create" family out of friends when we move. Yes, we miss our families but we do not feel lonely. We see our families when we can, and we have friends who are "like" family wherever we live, and have lived.

[Aelwydd]

Well I don't detest you. If I detested everyone I ever disagreed with or have been offended by, I would detest my whole family, even the kids. ;) We just disagree.

 

Oh, and DH says if you have relatives who have served in Iran, you should really keep that under wraps. :tongue_smilie:

 

Perhaps some of my opinion is influenced by my grandfather, who was an "analyst" for the CIA. He poked a lot of holes in my idealistic view of the US government. The other part comes from my brother-in-law, who served in Iraq.

 

I also have two cousins who also served multiple tours in Iraq. I wasn't lying when I said I get infuriated thinking about how the individual men and women in our military are short changed. I don't believe they are compensated enough either during or after their service. I don't want them sent back to war for anything less than a true defense of our country. So far, I'm not convinced that the Iraq or Afghanistan wars meet that litmus test. And now there's talk of Iran? When will it end? Forget our political leaders-- I think the soldiers should get to vote for any future wars, since they and their families are the ones that bear the brunt of it.

 

Again, I really am sorry for causing offense. Off now to edit.

[Aelwydd]

She did not say anything about your husband.

 

Just what corporations do, if I read it correctly.

 

That was my gist, or what I was trying to say. I said it very badly. Corporations go in after our service men and women have given their sweat and blood, and "clean up," and send in their "thank you" ($$) to the politicians who voted to go to war.

[QueenCat]

I guess what I see here is two sets of people.... those that look at the glass half full and those that look at it half empty. We've struggled, thankfully not now, but I still remained optimistic when we went through those struggles (pay/benefit cuts). I do remember the stress whenever a lay off was announced but I never got into a "it's the end of the world" mindset. I can't imagine living life, day in and day out, with that view. I'm saddened that so many do.

[Crimson Wife]

And I am shocked, shocked to report that, despite having cleaned out my inbox in preparation for the arrival of job data, I have received so far zero PMs with job leads.

 

I could forward you an email from a recruiter that my DH received today for a position that I'm certain pays well over 6 figures, but unless you happened to have the proper qualifications and wanted to relocate to the insanely high cost of living city of San Francisco, it wouldn't do you any good.

 

It's a supply and demand problem. There is an oversupply of workers on the low-to-medium skill end and that's driving down wages. I don't know how to fix the problem, because even if it were possible to raise the skill level of the general U.S. population, that would just result in a collapse in the salaries paid to high-skill workers. I guess that would make the OWS crowd happy, but then there would be no more "rich" to pay the lions' share of the bill for government spending.

[Joanne]

I guess what I see here is two sets of people.... those that look at the glass half full and those that look at it half empty. We've struggled, thankfully not now, but I still remained optimistic when we went through those struggles (pay/benefit cuts). I do remember the stress whenever a lay off was announced but I never got into a "it's the end of the world" mindset. I can't imagine living life, day in and day out, with that view. I'm saddened that so many do.

 

It's not always an end of the world mindset. It's that living on lower income for extended periods of time is a trap that you can't always escape.

 

We've had this discussion before, but few people get that living at a lower income makes everything more expensive. When everything is a higher percentage of your total income, you can't save, plan, respond to emergencies.

 

You may have to take your sick kid to the ER. ;)

 

I have a modest salary now, and just my contribution to my health insurance is nearly 10% of each biweekly check. THAT'S HUGE.

[QueenCat]

It's not always an end of the world mindset. It's that living on lower income for extended periods of time is a trap that you can't always escape.

 

We've had this discussion before, but few people get that living at a lower income makes everything more expensive. When everything is a higher percentage of your total income, you can't save, plan, respond to emergencies.

 

You may have to take your sick kid to the ER. ;)

 

I have a modest salary now, and just my contribution to my health insurance is nearly 10% of each biweekly check. THAT'S HUGE.

 

Thank you, for your respectful answer, I do appreciate it. You've given me something to think about. I really do try to be open minded, and listen from the heart but sometimes, when someone's world is so different than mine, it's hard to "see" what they are talking about.

[Crimson Wife]

few people get that living at a lower income makes everything more expensive. When everything is a higher percentage of your total income, you can't save, plan, respond to emergencies.

 

And few people who live in low COL areas get that having a higher income doesn't necessarily lead to greater purchasing power.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Again, I really am sorry for causing offense. Off now to edit.

 

It's all good. :)

Edited September 27, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[Aelwydd]

Cathie, that economist Chris Martenson I mentioned earlier in the thread has a whole series of short videos on youtube about the various forces at work that are negatively affecting the U.S. economy. He is very much an optimist, but he gives the information to you straight. If you are interested in learning more about the reasons why some of us take a dim view of the immediate future, his is a very good resource.

 

I don't categorize my views as "end of the world," though. More, "end of an era." I think there will be a long decline by the U.S., with maybe one or two more big shocks in the economy like 2008, and then decades from now, a recovery of sorts. But, it will be different.

[QueenCat]

Cathie, that economist Chris Martenson I mentioned earlier in the thread has a whole series of short videos on youtube about the various forces at work that are negatively affecting the U.S. economy. He is very much an optimist, but he gives the information to you straight. If you are interested in learning more about the reasons why some of us take a dim view of the immediate future, his is a very good resource.

 

I don't categorize my views as "end of the world," though. More, "end of an era." I think there will be a long decline by the U.S., with maybe one or two more big shocks in the economy like 2008, and then decades from now, a recovery of sorts. But, it will be different.

 

Perhaps tomorrow I'll check out the series... I tend to research a variety of viewpoints when I'm coming to my conclusions... for now, it's bed time.

[Arcadia]

Deleted - no intention to start a political storm.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Arcadia