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Straight talk about NPD...questions.


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:lol: No clue. But just as BPD has a genetic component, I've read that NPD does as well, that you can trace it over several generations.

 

*shrug*

 

I don't know how valid the statement is, just that I've read it in more than one place, from authors that have PhDs, trained psychiatrists, etc, so not from a National Enquirer source or layman's blog.

 

 

Yes, and we need Joanne to weigh in on this quesiton! Joanne, come into the NPD thread!

 

If the argument was solely based on nurture, it would not explain the NPD people (such as my SIL who had wonderful parents and was very well cared for, people who are just appalled and heart-broken at what kind of person their daughter as turned out to be) who had great nurturing, nor would it explain the shear multitudes of individuals that were horribly neglected and rose above and do not have NPD.

 

I do know that my brother was told by three psychiatrists that she is absolutely NPD and that she CAN choose to be different and refuses to do so...that she has NO care or concern for the destruction she wages, but that she does actually understand right from wrong. It's just right and wrong only apply to everyone else...she's too important, too special to have the rules apply to her!

 

That said, I have oftened wondered if RAD in childhood may manifest itself, in some cases, as NPD in adulthood.

 

Faith

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I truly believe that both my mom and my mil suffer from some degree of NPD.

 

Here are a couple of examples of my mom:

 

1. When my infant daughter died, my mom told me she would not come to the memorial service because she couldn't handle it. You know, if there is ever a time when you need your mom, it's when your kid dies. But, it had to be all about her.

 

2. After that, I became pregnant again. When I told my mom she said, "Oh no! You cannot do this to me again!" :001_huh:

 

3. When my grandma died (I was the one who was her caretaker for 10 years while my mom did nothing), my mom said, "I just need you to take care of me just like you have since you were a little girl."

 

4. When I was about 14 I was spending a weekend with my dad who lived with his mother. My dad and I got home from an outing and my grandma told me that my mom had called and needed me to call right away because it was an emergency. In a panic, I called my mom back. Her emergency? She could not figure out how to set the timer on the VCR to record a show she wanted to watch.

 

My thread from last week covers a number of NPD behaviors from my mil.:)

 

It's truly an exhausting experience!

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That said, I have oftened wondered if RAD in childhood may manifest itself, in some cases, as NPD in adulthood.

 

Faith

 

Yes!

 

I am so excited to hear someone else say this!! When I learned about RAD (I have friends who are dealing with it in their adopted child), I realized that NPD seems to be a less extreme version of it. Both are precipitated by abuse and/or neglect, it's just a matter of the degree.

 

The similarities are uncanny -- behaving in public (even being charming) yet destructive at home; extreme lying, deliberately and senselessly hurting those closest to them -- it's all there.

 

People with NPD don't hurt on accident, they hurt on purpose. They are described as "emotional vampires." In tests, they are off the charts in their ability to recognize emotions in other people, yet they score extremely low in empathy. It's why they're so adept at hurting.

Edited by sweetbasil
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That said, I have oftened wondered if RAD in childhood may manifest itself, in some cases, as NPD in adulthood.

 

Faith

 

I wouldn't doubt that at ALL.

 

I truly believe that both my mom and my mil suffer from some degree of NPD.

 

Here are a couple of examples of my mom:

 

1. When my infant daughter died, my mom told me she would not come to the memorial service because she couldn't handle it. You know, if there is ever a time when you need your mom, it's when your kid dies. But, it had to be all about her.

 

2. After that, I became pregnant again. When I told my mom she said, "Oh no! You cannot do this to me again!" :001_huh:

 

3. When my grandma died (I was the one who was her caretaker for 10 years while my mom did nothing), my mom said, "I just need you to take care of me just like you have since you were a little girl."

 

4. When I was about 14 I was spending a weekend with my dad who lived with his mother. My dad and I got home from an outing and my grandma told me that my mom had called and needed me to call right away because it was an emergency. In a panic, I called my mom back. Her emergency? She could not figure out how to set the timer on the VCR to record a show she wanted to watch.

 

My thread from last week covers a number of NPD behaviors from my mil.:)

 

It's truly an exhausting experience!

 

:001_huh::001_huh: I am so sorry for what you've been through. The last 2 points sound exactly like my mom. When I was 22 and had my second child who was very sick at birth and had to be in the NICU, my mom flew out to "help" but was angry that we didn't set out a towel for her...I guess going into the linen closet was too much to ask when I had just had an unexpected early birth and a child in the NICU? She also demanded to take my car to "run some errands" when I needed to feed the baby in the hospital. She refused to just stay there in the hospital with me. She has this obsessive need for freedom of her own time, even during her short, once a year visits. It's almost like she just canNOT physically prevent herself from running to the grocery store or whatever other whimsical need she has in order to be there for another person on their schedule. I don't get it.

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What are narcissists like with babies? Do they have trouble caring for them since it requires them to put another's needs before their own?

 

They are crazy about them sometimes. Because babies absolutely adore them. But then they grow up, and that gets ugly.

 

Depends on the narcissist.

 

Some adore babies, right up until about age 3, when the kids start having their own personalities and opinions.

 

Others can't stand them, b/c they take attention away from the N.

:iagree:

 

My own mother has often told me about how she tried to abort me when she found out she was pregnant with me. How I was the "ugliest baby she had ever seen" when I was born. In front of people though, she appeared to be a devoted young mother (as told to me by my grandparents), but when no one was looking, she had nothing to do with me (as my father found out one day).

 

She held this pattern of loving babies until they were old enough to talk. I saw time and time again how she repeated this pattern with my siblings.

 

Another curious thing she did was to have affairs with other men right after having her babies. She took me with her to 'hook up' on a few of these occasions. I was too young to understand what was really going on at the time. She divorced my father when I was 4 years old....right after she gave birth to my brother, and my dad caught her with another man in the house....yet, SHE was the victim in that whole thing (and every other divorce she had due to her infidelity).

 

My mother used to like to "play practical jokes" on me throughout my childhood. One incident in particular happened when I was in 7th grade. I had forgotten my flute at home and left a voice mail to ask her if she could bring it to me at school. A couple of hours later, I get pulled from class for a phone call. My mother, without missing a beat says, "your father has died." I recall feeling like I was going to faint instantly. Then she says, "just kidding! hahahaha I'll be there in a few minutes with your flute."

 

Those are the kinds of things that kids of NPD live with. I cut her out of my life over a decade ago, and I don't regret it at all. In addition to NPD, she is bi-polar, a drug addict, and an alcoholic. She was officially diagnosed with paranoid schitzophrenia about 6 years ago. I was not surprised to learn this.

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:iagree:

 

My own mother has often told me about how she tried to abort me when she found out she was pregnant with me. How I was the "ugliest baby she had ever seen" when I was born. In front of people though, she appeared to be a devoted young mother (as told to me by my grandparents), but when no one was looking, she had nothing to do with me (as my father found out one day).

 

She held this pattern of loving babies until they were old enough to talk. I saw time and time again how she repeated this pattern with my siblings.

 

Another curious thing she did was to have affairs with other men right after having her babies. She took me with her to 'hook up' on a few of these occasions. I was too young to understand what was really going on at the time. She divorced my father when I was 4 years old....right after she gave birth to my brother, and my dad caught her with another man in the house....yet, SHE was the victim in that whole thing (and every other divorce she had due to her infidelity).

 

My mother used to like to "play practical jokes" on me throughout my childhood. One incident in particular happened when I was in 7th grade. I had forgotten my flute at home and left a voice mail to ask her if she could bring it to me at school. A couple of hours later, I get pulled from class for a phone call. My mother, without missing a beat says, "your father has died." I recall feeling like I was going to faint instantly. Then she says, "just kidding! hahahaha I'll be there in a few minutes with your flute."

 

Those are the kinds of things that kids of NPD live with. I cut her out of my life over a decade ago, and I don't regret it at all. In addition to NPD, she is bi-polar, a drug addict, and an alcoholic. She was officially diagnosed with paranoid schitzophrenia about 6 years ago. I was not surprised to learn this.

 

:grouphug: :( These stories are horrible.

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:iagree:

 

My own mother has often told me about how she tried to abort me when she found out she was pregnant with me. How I was the "ugliest baby she had ever seen" when I was born. In front of people though, she appeared to be a devoted young mother (as told to me by my grandparents), but when no one was looking, she had nothing to do with me (as my father found out one day).

 

She held this pattern of loving babies until they were old enough to talk. I saw time and time again how she repeated this pattern with my siblings.

 

Another curious thing she did was to have affairs with other men right after having her babies. She took me with her to 'hook up' on a few of these occasions. I was too young to understand what was really going on at the time. She divorced my father when I was 4 years old....right after she gave birth to my brother, and my dad caught her with another man in the house....yet, SHE was the victim in that whole thing (and every other divorce she had due to her infidelity).

 

My mother used to like to "play practical jokes" on me throughout my childhood. One incident in particular happened when I was in 7th grade. I had forgotten my flute at home and left a voice mail to ask her if she could bring it to me at school. A couple of hours later, I get pulled from class for a phone call. My mother, without missing a beat says, "your father has died." I recall feeling like I was going to faint instantly. Then she says, "just kidding! hahahaha I'll be there in a few minutes with your flute."

 

Those are the kinds of things that kids of NPD live with. I cut her out of my life over a decade ago, and I don't regret it at all. In addition to NPD, she is bi-polar, a drug addict, and an alcoholic. She was officially diagnosed with paranoid schitzophrenia about 6 years ago. I was not surprised to learn this.

 

How horrific!! :grouphug::grouphug:

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:iagree:

 

My own mother has often told me about how she tried to abort me when she found out she was pregnant with me. How I was the "ugliest baby she had ever seen" when I was born. In front of people though, she appeared to be a devoted young mother (as told to me by my grandparents), but when no one was looking, she had nothing to do with me (as my father found out one day).

 

She held this pattern of loving babies until they were old enough to talk. I saw time and time again how she repeated this pattern with my siblings.

 

Another curious thing she did was to have affairs with other men right after having her babies. She took me with her to 'hook up' on a few of these occasions. I was too young to understand what was really going on at the time. She divorced my father when I was 4 years old....right after she gave birth to my brother, and my dad caught her with another man in the house....yet, SHE was the victim in that whole thing (and every other divorce she had due to her infidelity).

 

My mother used to like to "play practical jokes" on me throughout my childhood. One incident in particular happened when I was in 7th grade. I had forgotten my flute at home and left a voice mail to ask her if she could bring it to me at school. A couple of hours later, I get pulled from class for a phone call. My mother, without missing a beat says, "your father has died." I recall feeling like I was going to faint instantly. Then she says, "just kidding! hahahaha I'll be there in a few minutes with your flute."

 

Those are the kinds of things that kids of NPD live with. I cut her out of my life over a decade ago, and I don't regret it at all. In addition to NPD, she is bi-polar, a drug addict, and an alcoholic. She was officially diagnosed with paranoid schitzophrenia about 6 years ago. I was not surprised to learn this.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

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Wow, it's so upsetting that so many people (for me it's the moms) that can be so mean. I mean, I just can't imagine being so hateful to my beloved children.:confused:

 

 

My mil, is my only real experience with a narcissist and it makes me actually sick to examine her behavior at times. She is selfish beyond all reason and her mean can rip your heart out.

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I've got to wonder if some cases of NPD develop as a coping mechanism to childhood ( or later) abuse.

 

My mother, while not totally NPD, shows so many of the signs. She suffered horrendous sexual abuse as a child and her mother pretty much told her it was her fault. As an adult, NOTHING is her fault. She has been in therapy for the last 30 years and the therapist has told her that none of the abuse was her fault ( TRUE!!!) but somehow that has translated into nothing being her fault. She can do no wrong, and everything bad that happens in a situation is everyone elses fault. I do believe that it is her way of coping with the atrocities of her childhood.

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HockeyMom, you reminded me of an incident...nowhere near as bad as what your mom pulled, but...

 

My mom, and her 1st dh were seperated. She was already living w/the guy that would become my (step) Dad, dh#2.

 

I was 4, and loved her dh, believed him to be my Dad (there has since been reason to believe that nope, he's not). So, her and her new bf called me into their bedroom, big long story where they claimed to have fought her dh and cut his finger off...showed me the 'finger in the box w/blood' (ketchup) routine.

 

Anyone wants to hazard a guess as to WTH that was supposed to have done other than terrify a 4 yo into hysterics is welcome to weigh in.

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Under #2, I don't know many people who have no empathy. I would think that is more sociopathic.

 

One could say that those with NPD exhibit all of those traits to a sociopathic extreme. My grandmother is a sociopath and has NPD. This is not that she is a bad grandmother (she really isn't one at all) but that she lives a life with a daily need to hurt others and reinforce her superiority. Over her life she has seriously physically and emotionally abused those around her (and sees no wrong doing) and conducted a number of criminal enterprises including kidnapping and fraud. It is highly probable that she killed one of my mother's older siblings who was age 1 prior to having my mom, but that is based on family talk and not stuff I have specifically been able to verify. She spent time in prison in the 1960s. I have an "aunt" who was a little girl she kidnapped from a prostitute and has never been able to locate her biological family. Certainly there are many sociopaths and people with NPD who seem more normal and less obviously malignant but if you met the woman? You'd think she was a charming old lady whose family just abbandoned her for no reason at all. She was abusing my mom until I quite literally refused her any contact when my mother was on her death bed. She is convinced that she is a special person who can basically do no wrong no matter how wrong she is or how much damage she does.

Edited by kijipt
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What are narcissists like with babies? Do they have trouble caring for them since it requires them to put another's needs before their own?

 

My grandmother has a total baby complex. She is obsessed with them. Because they don't talk or tell her to shut up. Seriously. She manipulated my mother into letting her raise my older brother HER child from about age 1. My brother was 5 before he knew that our mother was not his sister. My mom was 20, fragile and alone when he was born so she didn't have the courage to resist. When he was 5, she married and joined the Catholic church and got some strength. After I was born when she was 26, she had my dad drive her to their house and took my brother back. She has manipulated my aunts and various cousins in about the same way- convincing them that they are too awful to be mothers and they need her help. Her help rapidly becomes surplanting them as the actual parent. But as a child gets older, resistant, argumentative or is especially prone to crying? She is physically abusive. My mother lost most of her hearing and was left with a seizure disorder due to the beatings and subsequent medical neglect.

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Some adore babies, right up until about age 3, when the kids start having their own personalities and opinions.

 

 

 

This is my MIL. She loves babies because they focus all of their attention on her. Her interest starts to wain when they become more mobile and by the time they are 5 or 6 she's done with them. Especially if they are pretty smart and can tell she's full of cr*p when she makes up lies to try to impress them. She has absolutely NO interest in teenagers at all, in fact, usually she becomes so vile around them that you'd think she was talking to a rabid dog instead of a grandchild. She thinks it's funny to put them down and insult them, or try to make them look foolish in some way.

 

Yuck...don't know why I poked my head in here. I haven't had to speak to my MIL in months and months and dh has been slowly closing the door on his relationship with her. I don't think he's spoken to her in over a month. It has been peaceful. Healing for dh has been hard. He just told me the other day that the last thing she said to him the day he took her to the airport (she had been living with us but due to her behavior we refused to let her stay any longer) was that she hated him, had always hated him and wished that it had been him that died as an infant instead of her other son that died at two weeks old. About two weeks later she called him and acted like nothing had happened. He was cold over the phone and she asked him what she could have possibly done to have upset him. :glare:

 

I'm just glad that we finally have her out of our lives. :grouphug: to anyone who has to continually deal with someone like this.

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HockeyMom, you reminded me of an incident...nowhere near as bad as what your mom pulled, but...

 

My mom, and her 1st dh were seperated. She was already living w/the guy that would become my (step) Dad, dh#2.

 

I was 4, and loved her dh, believed him to be my Dad (there has since been reason to believe that nope, he's not). So, her and her new bf called me into their bedroom, big long story where they claimed to have fought her dh and cut his finger off...showed me the 'finger in the box w/blood' (ketchup) routine.

 

Anyone wants to hazard a guess as to WTH that was supposed to have done other than terrify a 4 yo into hysterics is welcome to weigh in.

 

:grouphug: Yes, those kinds of things became expected, when you're the child of someone with NPD. My mother took sadistic pleasure out of terrifying us with grotesque Halloween masks every year. She would jump out, scream bloody murder, and laugh hysterically when we were in tears. She was relentless in her "game".

 

And oh, the drama which ensued if her universe shifted and she was no longer the center of attention! Suicide threats? Check. Tantrums? Check. Complete disregard for those witnessing her inappropriate behavior? Check. One time, she stripped completely naked in front of me and my brother to prove some point to her then-bf at the time. She then jumped on her bf and began gyrating on him. Again, brother and I were too young to know what was going on, but we were old enough to feel very uncomfortable about all of it.

 

Unfortunately, due to her numerous suicide threats (which were never going to happen), I often find myself irritated when others even hint at the idea. Something in my brain just shuts down, and I don't want to be anywhere near that person, much less comfort them. I feel awful about it, but it is what it is. I'm not the person to threaten suicide to.

 

This is obviously a 'hot button' topic for me. My heart goes out to everyone who has had to deal with someone like this in their lives. I wish there was a cure for people like this. The collateral damage of living with a person like this is so great. :(

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She loves babies because they focus all of their attention on her. Her interest starts to wain when they become more mobile and by the time they are 5 or 6 she's done with them. Especially if they are pretty smart and can tell she's full of cr*p when she makes up lies to try to impress them. She has absolutely NO interest in teenagers at all, in fact, usually she becomes so vile around them that you'd think she was talking to a rabid dog instead of a grandchild. She thinks it's funny to put them down and insult them, or try to make them look foolish in some way.

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

My mother was like this. She was a pediatric nurse before she was married. She would only work in the nursery because she couldn't stand kids older than infants.

 

She always enjoyed humiliating and embarrassing me. She once gave me a piece of "candy" and after I swallowed it she confessed it was a dog treat (in the shape of a Hershey's kiss). She thought it was just hilarious that I was so upset.

 

I have very curly, kinky hair. Once, while getting a haircut as a teenager, she announced to the entire hair salon that God screwed up and put pubic hair on my head. I had two friends with me that day, who of course immediately told everyone else. For months afterward, my nickname was "pube". She thought it was hilarious and couldn't understand why I might be embarrassed.

 

She did things like that all the time. I think I have blocked a lot of memories, as every now and then something will pop into my head that I hadn't thought about for years.

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I've got to wonder if some cases of NPD develop as a coping mechanism to childhood ( or later) abuse.

 

My mother, while not totally NPD, shows so many of the signs. She suffered horrendous sexual abuse as a child and her mother pretty much told her it was her fault. As an adult, NOTHING is her fault. She has been in therapy for the last 30 years and the therapist has told her that none of the abuse was her fault ( TRUE!!!) but somehow that has translated into nothing being her fault. She can do no wrong, and everything bad that happens in a situation is everyone elses fault. I do believe that it is her way of coping with the atrocities of her childhood.

 

This was a big factor in my mother's slide toward NPD. I had known about what she went through for years, but it was interesting (in a sad way) that as the NPD got worse and worse she began telling more and more people about what she had been through as a child. She had dementia, and it was also as though as she forgot more and more of the immediate past (including her marriage and children), the memories of her abuse became constant. Her behavior became worse and worse too.

 

Wow, it's so upsetting that so many people (for me it's the moms) that can be so mean. I mean, I just can't imagine being so hateful to my beloved children.:confused:

 

 

My mil, is my only real experience with a narcissist and it makes me actually sick to examine her behavior at times. She is selfish beyond all reason and her mean can rip your heart out.

 

Yes, the supreme for me was her behavior in my father's last months of life. What I heard from family friends and staff members was just plain *horrid*. I got story after story afterwards. For people who hadn't talked to me in 20 years or barely had met me to track me down and tell me that sort of thing shows how bad it was. She even refused to be there when he was dying because it was too embarrassing. So when they came out to tell her that he was gone, she was laughing and telling jokes to a stranger she met in the lobby. The social worker who was with my father when he died said that she had *never* dealt with such a selfish spouse and advised me to stay far, far away. And I did, although we had been estranged off and on for years anyway.

 

I'm thankful that over the years I was able to see her for what she was, and that I did seek professional help off and on for both my own issues and dealing with my other immediate family members.

Edited by GVA
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He just told me the other day that the last thing she said to him the day he took her to the airport (she had been living with us but due to her behavior we refused to let her stay any longer) was that she hated him, had always hated him and wished that it had been him that died as an infant instead of her other son that died at two weeks old. About two weeks later she called him and acted like nothing had happened. He was cold over the phone and she asked him what she could have possibly done to have upset him.

 

Oh...my. I'm sorry.

 

So when somebody like this behaves as if nothing happened, has she convinced herself that nothing did? Does she actually forget the vile things she said or did? Or is she hoping the other person will forget, or be convinced that he's remembering wrong?

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Oh...my. I'm sorry.

 

So when somebody like this behaves as if nothing happened, has she convinced herself that nothing did? Does she actually forget the vile things she said or did? Or is she hoping the other person will forget, or be convinced that he's remembering wrong?

 

 

They rarely "forget" though they will actually play at it. Usually, it comes from a position of justification. The NPD personality truly believes that they can never be wrong, that they are so special that anything they say or do is acceptable, and that no one has a right to be upset by what they say or do. It's not likely that 5littlemonkey's MIL forgot what she said to him, she just doesn't think there is anything wrong with it and is "shocked" that he could possibly be upset. It is inconceivable to her that anyone would be upset with her because she's so perfect. If you are upset with the NPD'er, then you are the bad person...you are the horrible, mean spirited, non-caring entity because you dare to suggest that they are wrong. Literally, in their world, they cannot.ever.be.held.accountable.not.once.

 

The above MIL very likely knows exactly what she said to her son and when she said it. If it would play into some sort of drama that would get her attention from a different source, ie. "My son is so evil to me that I told him the other day that I wish he'd never been born...." told to some innocent soul that would rush to comfort her, you better believe she'd admit to it. It's just that in her mind, she is such a special, deserving, perfect person that her son not only deserved to hear what she thought but should accept it and "do better" by her. I'm not kidding. NPD'ers dish up this kind of horse manure and expect people to don the black tie clothes, put the linen napkin in their lap, grab a bottle of expensive wine, and EAT IT!

 

My NPD SIL absolutely knows exactly what she says and to whom she has said it and when. She'll bring it up in a crowd if that is what will garner her the attention. She'll act like nothing is wrong and feign total innocence with those she said it to and she truly expects everyone to eat her cr*p and call it gourmet!

 

There is no remourse. There is however, anger, vile hatred, and bitter resentment when the victim no longer eats the garbage.

 

Faith

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Oh...my. I'm sorry.

 

So when somebody like this behaves as if nothing happened, has she convinced herself that nothing did? Does she actually forget the vile things she said or did? Or is she hoping the other person will forget, or be convinced that he's remembering wrong?

 

 

This is something I have never figured out, I can't distinguish between true delusion, some sort of psychotic forgetfulness, or gaslighting most of the time.

 

I actually posted a related thread today :(

 

Does anyone have good resources for helping kids cope with a NPD in their lives, or how to parent a child to undo these effects?

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Oh...my. I'm sorry.

 

So when somebody like this behaves as if nothing happened, has she convinced herself that nothing did? Does she actually forget the vile things she said or did? Or is she hoping the other person will forget, or be convinced that he's remembering wrong?

 

In my grandmother's case, the targeted victim is just lying about them. If she did anything "that upset you", she had cause. she doesn't do anything wrong, right? The lord has blessed her. As for the evidence that she did anything? Oh my mother has epilepsy (from beatings about the head) because my mom was possessed by the devil. My mother's hearing loss? Oh it wasn't her fault my mother's ear drums were damaged head injuries and chronically untreated infection. My mother was just being punished by God for being so bad so GOD took her hearing. I wish I was able to make sh!t like this up.

 

She lost another house because she was addicted to gambling and lotto tickets. That was her sons-in-law fault since none of them would pay her mortgage for her.

 

She went into heart surgery convinced that the lord had given her a new heart as a miracle because she was so blessed. She maintained that the surgeons would open her up and find a brand new healthy heart not in need of surgery. The fact the she still has hear disease? Doesn't change her narrative.

Edited by kijipt
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Here is a blog that really helped me:
Narcissist's Suck at blogspot

This is one thing that described my mom:

"Your mother’s an expert sniper. You know you got hit; you just don’t know where the shot came from. You can’t do anything but lie there, bleeding out.

Why does she feel the need to aim and fire? If confronted, she’d say something like: Don’t be so sensitive. It was a perfect double whammy, to hurt someone and then to act as if it were weakness on the part of the injured to cry out in pain."

Heartbroken, Lisa Unger pg. 54 (This is a fiction book)

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Here is a blog that really helped me:

http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/

 

Here is another recommended to me:

http://www.wmeades.com/id211.htm

 

This is one thing that described my mom:

 

Your mother’s an expert sniper. You know you got hit; you just don’t know where the shot came from. You can’t do anything but lie there, bleeding out.

 

Why does she feel the need to aim and fire? If confronted, she’d say something like: Don’t be so sensitive. It was a perfect double whammy, to hurt someone and then to act as if it were weakness on the part of the injured to cry out in pain.

 

Heartbroken, Lisa Unger pg. 54

 

Yes. This is one of them. I still sting from those shots.

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blessedwinter: Okay I have never heard of NPD until I came here, and it seems to come up a lot. I am trying to understand this without diagnosing everyone I know (including myself) as having this. Here are the symptoms from the Mayo Clinic website:

 

  • Believing that you're better than others
  • Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness
  • Exaggerating your achievements or talents
  • Expecting constant praise and admiration
  • Believing that you're special and acting accordingly
  • Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings
  • Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans
  • Taking advantage of others
  • Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior
  • Being jealous of others
  • Believing that others are jealous of you
  • Trouble keeping healthy relationships
  • Setting unrealistic goals
  • Being easily hurt and rejected
  • Having a fragile self-esteem
  • Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

Seriously?? Everyone I know (including myself) does some or all of these things.

 

No kidding. I've never heard of it much either until here but goodness, everyone I have ever known fits at least a few of these, from time to time. From reading here, you'd think that half of America has a "disorder". I'm sure there are people who are truly disordered, but these vague symptoms just appear to be personality differences.

 

 

Having a fragile self-esteem? Don't most women? Most women I know are painfully insecure. Taking advantage of others? Ummm, tons of people do that. I agree that some of these are concerning but the majority of these symptoms just seem typical of any selfish individual, and can't most of us tend to be selfish if we're really honest with ourselves? :confused: I know a LOT of people (primarily women) who think they are better than others and I have known or heard of a LOT of men who take advantage of others, I'm thinking mostly in a business or sexual setting here. Most women I know struggle with jealousy. "Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior"...politics, anyone? Don't we all do this to some extent?

 

 

 

Yep

 

Here's another thing:

 

In contrast, people who have healthy confidence and self-esteem don't value themselves more than they value others.

 

Really?? People don't value themselves more than they value others? There's a reason there was only one Mother Teresa...the rest of us just don't make the cut. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yeah. I am married to a man like that who truly does put others before himself. He was going to be a priest, in his teens, before he decided that was not his calling. But believe me, having dated until I was 30 year old, they are freaking rarities of nature!

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Someone on here was suggesting that maybe everyone here is making things up because how could it be that so many here have someone in their life like this. I think I know. The ones who survive and don't have this problem make darn well sure that nothing like this happens to their family. They are probably much more sensitive to marrying good people =hence the reason there are so many here with both sides of the family suffering from this- the survivors are bound and determined NOT to have their families corrupted in this way.

 

I have been thinking about genetics a lot. We have mental illness on both sides of the family.

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In my grandmother's case, the targeted victim is just lying about them. If she did anything "that upset you", she had cause. she doesn't do anything wrong, right? The lord has blessed her. As for the evidence that she did anything? Oh my mother has epilepsy (from beatings about the head) because my mom was possessed by the devil. My mother's hearing loss? Oh it wasn't her fault my mother's ear drums were damaged head injuries and chronically untreated infection. My mother was just being punished by God for being so bad so GOD took her hearing. I wish I was able to make sh!t like this up.

 

She lost another house because she was addicted to gambling and lotto tickets. That was her sons-in-law fault since none of them would pay her mortgage for her.

 

She went into heart surgery convinced that the lord had given her a new heart as a miracle be cause she was so blessed. She maintained that the surgeons would open her up and find a brand new healthy heart not in need of surgery. They fact the she still has hear disease? Doesn't change her narrative.

 

 

Your mother is much like dh's great-grandmother. She was always the perfect "christian" and as such had special blessings from God. It was AWFUL. Thankfully, I never knew her in any appreciable way before she died which sounds terrible, to be thankful that I didn't have to know dh's great-grandmother. But, she was just about killing her kids with her behavior. She was so evil to them.

 

The one son, in an act of desperation, did manage to get a guardianship of her during a medical crisis and it was a full legal guardianship. Somehow, he managed to sell her house while she was in the hospital so she wouldn't have a house to come home to. He sold his house as well and moved to California (from Michigan) so she couldn't afford to move near him! Ugh...she moved to Florida to be near her daughter (dh's grandmother). Bad move on her part. She was living at dh's grandma's house (we lived out west at the time) while she looked to buy a place and since she hadn't been there 30 days so they didn't have to give her an eviction notice, dh's dad threw her out on the street at 81 years of age! He made sure to leave her on a safe street corner and she had plenty of money for a taxi. He gave her the addresses of three nursing homes and told her to take a taxi to the one of her choice.

 

That sounds harsh, even elder abusive. However, keep this in context...two of her four children committed suicide BECAUSE of her and her sociopathic mind games. She probably had NPD, plus was a sociopath, plus a psychopath, plus God knows what else. One daughter and one son ended their lives because of her. They were young teens, didn't feel they had anywhere else they could go, their dad was a mouse...total doormat to this woman's behavior (something he had to live with the rest of his life and it wasn't long because he just sort of lost his will to live after the second suicide and kind of wasted away), the great-great grandparents maternally wouldn't take any of the grandkids in because they didn't want their daughter around, and the paternal grandparents had already passed away. These kids felt there was NO WHERE to go.

 

Their suicide notes were preserved and honestly, it made me want to retch when dh's father had me read them. The reason he wanted me to read them was so that if anyone else in the family, including dh, ever displayed any of these tendencies I would know to take his grandchildren and RUN. My FIL and I were never close and he could be a real piece of work, but seriously, I knew just how bad it must have been if he was willing to let me read the suicide letters of an aunt and uncle he never knew in order to help me arm myself should someone else in the family begin behaving like that.

 

This is why I am so vehemently against anyone feeling like they should put-up with an NPD personality out of "honoring they father and they mother", or "turn the other cheek", or "do unto others", or family obligation or WHATEVER. This is so far beyond the bounds of anything that should ever be deemed acceptable to put up with that it should be screamed from the mountain tops. I cannot imagine the horror of living with that woman...I met her once for five hours and left with heart palpitations. She was totally lucid and the stuff she said to her daughter was so evil. "Marie, when the doctor handed you to me after you were born, I should have smothered you with the pillow. At least everyone would have felt sorry for me because my baby died." She did not have dementia. She was actually found to be "fit as a fiddle" by the nursing home staff.

 

When she died, there was no memorial service, no funeral, no grieving, no nothing. There was a sense of relief. Grandma smiled, my FIL smiled. They were rid of this horrible person.

 

Protect yourselves. Protect your children. Whatever you do, don't "drink the cool aid" of an NPD person.

 

Faith

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"Your mother’s an expert sniper. You know you got hit; you just don’t know where the shot came from. You can’t do anything but lie there, bleeding out.

 

Why does she feel the need to aim and fire? If confronted, she’d say something like: Don’t be so sensitive. It was a perfect double whammy, to hurt someone and then to act as if it were weakness on the part of the injured to cry out in pain."

 

Heartbroken, Lisa Unger pg. 54 (This is a fiction book)

 

This happened ALL THE TIME to me growing up.

 

nm I shouldn't stoop to their level of gossip anymore.

Edited by blessedwinter
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Someone on here was suggesting that maybe everyone here is making things up because how could it be that so many here have someone in their life like this. I think I know. The ones who survive and don't have this problem make darn well sure that nothing like this happens to their family. They are probably much more sensitive to marrying good people =hence the reason there are so many here with both sides of the family suffering from this- the survivors are bound and determined NOT to have their families corrupted in this way.

 

I have been thinking about genetics a lot. We have mental illness on both sides of the family.

 

If NPD is only 1% of the population (most recent estimates are higher), that still means that 1 in 100 people have the disorder. I definitely know more than 100 people. :)

 

NPD runs in families, too. I believe the incidence of NPD in children of Ns is 52%. So those with an N in their family are likely to know more than one.

 

People who have Ns as parents are more likely to date/marry/be friends with Ns. They are also more likely to date/marry/be friends with other children of Ns.

 

So while some people are blessed to have no Ns in their lives (or at least think they don't), some people will know several. That 1% isn't evenly distributed across the population; it's an average.

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You have never been any of those things at any time in your life?

 

Impressed. I think most of us have been.

 

Honestly, until you have really been in the situation it is nearly impossible to comprehend the sheer mind twisting brutality, manipulation, and cold detached behavior the true NPD displays.

 

The difference is that while most people will show those symptoms to some degree at one time or another in their life, they are not the defining characteristics of the person. Most of us do not leave a huge wake of victims behind us in our life.

 

Most of us, when we stumble and act selfishly, or hurtfully, or rudely will realize our wrong doing, seek to make amends, and wish to not repeat our own mistakes (even if we do) We attempt to be good people, are introspective and worry about how we affect those that we are close to. Not because of how it makes us look, but because we actually care.

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I hope Joanne will have a chance to weigh in on this. I'd like to hear her comments. I know that the few psychologists/counselors we have in this area do not accept sociopathic patients because they believe they truly cannot be helped. One is also known for not taking NPD clients either. So, it would be interesting to know if I'm right about NPD being on the sociopathic spectrum. My comments are really just based on personal experience and observation, but NOT from any education or training in the field.

 

Faith

 

I've been relatively mute on this thread, because my best material to explain the issue is intensely personal.

 

"Sociopath" is not a DSM diagnosis, but is the informal (non clinical) term used for Anti-Social personality disorder. Although NPD and Anti-Social share some characteristics, anti-social is more aggressive and tends towards more criminal behavior whereas NPD is centered on status, power, and adoration seeking.

 

Children with oppositional defiant disorder might progress into teens with conduct disorder and adults with anti-social. All 3 are very serious terms and diagnosises, which is why I am *very* careful with ODD and CD.

 

As far as empathy, I believe NPD can feel, but that the need to be adored, to have power, to "win" often obscures empathy and they value or honor their needs more than appropriate responses to empathy.

 

To break down the list in the OP:

 

Believing that you're better than others

 

NPD's believe this. Not that they are better at baseball than some. Not that they are better at grammar than some. They believe they are better than everyone in general, overall, across the board.

 

True humility is not thinking the least of yourself, or even thinking of yourself least. It's an honest, realistic knowledge of who you are and who you aren't. NPD lack this perspective.

 

 

Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness

 

Sure, most people want to have power, success, and be attractive. But NPDs do more than "fantasize" about it; they are driven by it.

 

 

Exaggerating your achievements or talents

 

NPD's are stellar at re-writing history. They spin, skew, or reframe in ways that go beyond hyperbole. But since they are better than everyone, they expect that any reasonable person, howeverly lowly, will believe them.

 

 

Expecting constant praise and admiration

 

In many ways, in NPDs this comes across like arrested development. It's like they stopped maturing somewhere in toddlerhood; they need the attention, praise, and clapping that most kids get when they take their first steps.

 

This is quite distinguishable from wanting *appropriate* attention upon events such as graduations, births, weddings, etc.

 

 

Believing that you're special and acting accordingly

 

*cough* I know an NPD who will stop random people in stores and parking lots to tell them how they are walking down the wrong side, or how they are pushing their da*n baby stroller incorrectly. This NPD is special, and his kids report that their Dad had to "educate someone" today when he does this. :confused::glare:

 

 

Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings

 

 

Oblivious or deliberately dismissive, NPDs discount the emotions of others; those pesky other emotions take the focus and drama away from the NPD. However, if an NPD can USE that emotion or drama to their advantage, they will.

 

Typically, this means storing information about what hurts and means something to the individuals and SLAMMING them with that content at a later time.

 

 

Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans

 

One NPD I know (actually, 2) fully, totally expect that any sane, reasonable, average or above IQ person will fully, totally agree with them about everything: politics, work, child rearing, religion.

 

*cough* I know one who returned to a guardian ad litem 3 times after the ad litem issued their statement (which was contrary to the NPD's wishes).:lol:

 

Taking advantage of others

 

Masters at spotting weakness, they will find and destroy victims without ever touching them. And, often, the victim will run to books such as "Power of a Praying Wife" to change themselves because the NPD has them convinced that THEY are the problem.

 

 

Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior

 

 

Patronizing put downs are common, and show up in public frequently. Since NPDs don't "get" that others don't think like they do, they will put others down; and people nearby look around awkwardly because it's over the line, but only "just" and no one knows what to do.

 

 

Being jealous of others

 

They will often hyperfocus on other people's life space, settings, material goods and relatives (which NPDs consider possessions).

 

 

Believing that others are jealous of you

 

One common characteristic and pattern are job changes because people around them are "threatened". :glare: And, when you ARE superior to others, of course they envy you. ;)

 

Trouble keeping healthy relationships

 

Studying the marriages, sibling, and child/parent relationships of these persons is telling. Some with friends and coworkers.

 

Setting unrealistic goals

 

"Type A" on steroids. :tongue_smilie:

 

Being easily hurt and rejected

 

 

Yes, but they USE this manipulatively. If you confront them, they might just want to kill themselves over the pain - because that diverts the real issue of your content. (They don't kill themselves, btw).

 

 

Having a fragile self-esteem

 

 

The true irony, but this is masked with all the above. It's not the same "fragile" self esteem as some other people. It's a total feeling of inadequacy only overcome with larger bravado and arrogance.

 

 

Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

 

Yes, but not in a strong, stoic way. Many people appear strong or unemotional. It's when they *appear* that but swing widely into over-emotion (usually anger) that they belie the truth.

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Honestly, until you have really been in the situation it is nearly impossible to comprehend the sheer mind twisting brutality, manipulation, and cold detached behavior the true NPD displays.

 

The difference is that while most people will show those symptoms to some degree at one time or another in their life, they are not the defining characteristics of the person. Most of us do not leave a huge wake of victims behind us in our life.

 

Most of us, when we stumble and act selfishly, or hurtfully, or rudely will realize our wrong doing, seek to make amends, and wish to not repeat our own mistakes (even if we do) We attempt to be good people, are introspective and worry about how we affect those that we are close to. Not because of how it makes us look, but because we actually care.

 

That's another thing, is that with my mom and the people I mentioned, I tried several times to make amends but they refuse to forgive me (one in particular) so they can continue to make me out to be the bad, crazy one and they can keep up the appearance (to themselves I guess?) that they did no wrong. Yet they think of themselves as good, righteous, Christian women. Who can't handle being confronted on their crap, I guess.

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Your mother is much like dh's great-grandmother. She was always the perfect "christian" and as such had special blessings from God. It was AWFUL.

 

When she died, there was no memorial service, no funeral, no grieving, no nothing. There was a sense of relief.

 

Just to clarify, my mother was raised by the sociopathic NPD person (my grandmother.) My mom was not NPD- she had PTSD and physical disabilities due to my grandmother. My mom, given the cr@p hand she was dealt did a decent job as a parent, certainly we were never abused like an had been and she moved us 3000 miles away from her mother when we were young. My mom died at age 55, my grandmother is unfairly still kickin' it.

 

I get the no funeral thing. I am not joking the when I get wind of her death I am more likely to crack open a bottle of bubbly and celebrate than mourn. She is vile. I have seen her 2 times in the last 17 years and that is 2 times too many. I told her that if she travelled here for my mom's funeral, I would get a police officer to escort her out. Had she or any of the family that feeds her drama and mimics her come to town, I would have hired off duty cops to be bouncers at the funeral. She was telling my mother that she was going to hell for being Catholic just months prior to my mom's death after a 14 year battle with cancer. My mom, like a lot of abused kids was still seeking her mom's love and approval. I cut off my grandmother's phone access to my mom. She would have come and made the whole funeral about her...how she lost her precious daughter. The daughter she beat up, abused and shamed endlessly. She took joy from putting my mother and anyone else she could sink her teeth into down in any possible way.

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Honestly, until you have really been in the situation it is nearly impossible to comprehend the sheer mind twisting brutality, manipulation, and cold detached behavior the true NPD displays.

 

The difference is that while most people will show those symptoms to some degree at one time or another in their life, they are not the defining characteristics of the person. Most of us do not leave a huge wake of victims behind us in our life.

 

Most of us, when we stumble and act selfishly, or hurtfully, or rudely will realize our wrong doing, seek to make amends, and wish to not repeat our own mistakes (even if we do) We attempt to be good people, are introspective and worry about how we affect those that we are close to. Not because of how it makes us look, but because we actually care.

 

This is a really good post.

 

Those who have not experienced it really can't comprehend the evil of it. It's just too unimaginable for most. As it should be.

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:grouphug: Yes, those kinds of things became expected, when you're the child of someone with NPD. My mother took sadistic pleasure out of terrifying us with grotesque Halloween masks every year. She would jump out, scream bloody murder, and laugh hysterically when we were in tears. She was relentless in her "game".

 

And oh, the drama which ensued if her universe shifted and she was no longer the center of attention! Suicide threats? Check. Tantrums? Check. Complete disregard for those witnessing her inappropriate behavior? Check. One time, she stripped completely naked in front of me and my brother to prove some point to her then-bf at the time. She then jumped on her bf and began gyrating on him. Again, brother and I were too young to know what was going on, but we were old enough to feel very uncomfortable about all of it.

 

Unfortunately, due to her numerous suicide threats (which were never going to happen), I often find myself irritated when others even hint at the idea. Something in my brain just shuts down, and I don't want to be anywhere near that person, much less comfort them. I feel awful about it, but it is what it is. I'm not the person to threaten suicide to.

 

This is obviously a 'hot button' topic for me. My heart goes out to everyone who has had to deal with someone like this in their lives. I wish there was a cure for people like this. The collateral damage of living with a person like this is so great. :(

 

 

This (and HockeyMom's story) sounds way beyond a "disorder" to me. Sounds like a socio or even psychopath.

 

I'm so sorry that you two (and others with similar stories) had to go through this.

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That's what I wonder. It doesn't start in a vacuum, so they really deserve our pity.

 

Oh, I know it is a cycle. I met my great grandmother. She was no peach. And her husbands sexually abused my grandmother. My grandmother had a horrible childhood. That is not an excuse for her behavior, just an explanation. But instead of seek better, she repeated it all with her kids, right down to allowing the men in her life to sexually abuse her kids. I do feel sorry for her but watching my mother, I saw that my grandmother's actions were choices not predestined by her own abuse. My mother had the same or worse as far as hellish childhood. My mother was not a perfect, happy mother. She struggled a lot to stay calm and not be like her mother. She married a man from outside the dysfunctional culture of her family. She moved her kids away. She never beat us, she tried her best to protect and nurture us even though she lacked role models. When I was abused by someone, she didn't ignore it and got all of us out of the entire state where it happened. So seeing that she could go through hell and come out not intent on hurting others, I knew that there are paths out of that sort of family and life. Now you could say that perhaps the difference was that my mom did not have NPD so she was able to make different choices but I don't think you can say that my grandmother's NPD was caused by her childhood. Plenty of people have terrible parents and figure out how to break the cycle. So perhaps my mom dodged a gene or something. My grandmother has some fairly reasonable, albeit damaged, siblings. They wouldn't have a thing to do with their mom or sister.

Edited by kijipt
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NPD includes an almost pathological selfishness, coupled with delusional or dishonest views of people and a willingness to lie to and about others.

and a malicious glee when educating others about their inferiority.

 

also, there are different types of personality disorders. lots of overlap, but some significant differences.

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This (and HockeyMom's story) sounds way beyond a "disorder" to me. Sounds like a socio or even psychopath.

 

I'm so sorry that you two (and others with similar stories) had to go through this.

 

Sociopathy is a disorder. Often these disorders do not exist in a vacuum but are co-morbid.

 

Based on your posts so far, I can see that you don't really "get" NPD - which is totally fine, you really shouldn't if you haven't lived it. But trust me when I tell you that these women's stories are not unique.

 

If you are truly interested, a great place to read more is:

 

http://lightshouse.org/all-about-narcissists.html

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This (and HockeyMom's story) sounds way beyond a "disorder" to me. Sounds like a socio or even psychopath.

 

 

Most of the people I can think of with NPD are sociopaths (with Anti-social Personality Disorder) for sure. Like high blood pressure and heart disease, someone can have both. Definitely. Sociopath is not a medical term.

Edited by kijipt
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So when somebody like this behaves as if nothing happened, has she convinced herself that nothing did? Does she actually forget the vile things she said or did? Or is she hoping the other person will forget, or be convinced that he's remembering wrong?

 

My MIL seems to be both delusional and purposely forgetful. My BIL came to visit once at Thanksgiving and mentioned that he didn't learn that his mother was his actual mother until he was 15. He was crying and so angry, even at age 60 or so. She was laughing about it like it was a big joke and said, "Oh, yeah, that. I forgot about that." Really???

 

Anyway, I can't figure her out, but she also gaslights quite a bit.

 

This is something I have never figured out, I can't distinguish between true delusion, some sort of psychotic forgetfulness, or gaslighting most of the time.

 

I actually posted a related thread today :(

 

Does anyone have good resources for helping kids cope with a NPD in their lives, or how to parent a child to undo these effects?

 

I think they would have to develop a way of examining what is happening to themselves, but a child is no match for someone with NPD. My husband learned to deal with his mother by staying in his room or outside most of his life. He just avoided her. Today, because she is elderly, he cares for her but has an amazing capacity to tune her out almost completely.

 

Why does she feel the need to aim and fire? If confronted, she’d say something like: Don’t be so sensitive. It was a perfect double whammy, to hurt someone and then to act as if it were weakness on the part of the injured to cry out in pain."

 

Heartbroken, Lisa Unger pg. 54 (This is a fiction book)

 

That example almost sounds like a double bind. I've only read a little about them but some people believe using double binds when communicating with children can lead to schizophrenia later in life. I don't know much about them, though, but the communication can be nonverbal as well as verbal.

 

***********

 

Now that I live 17 miles away from my MIL -- as opposed to the same condo 2 floors above her (!) -- I pity her, but living with her manipulations, instrusiveness and crazy-making behavior was almost too much for me. My husband and I almost divorced over her antics. Unless you've lived around someone like this, it's difficult to imagine how bad it can be.

Edited by MBM
typos
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Most of the people I can think of with NPD are sociopaths for sure.

As I've stated before, my mother has 5/7 traits in the DSM IV of Anti-social Personality Disorder (aka sociopathy). Only reason it's not 6 or 7 is b/c I don't know what little she's shared of her childhood is actually true, and my gma would never discuss my mother's childhood.

 

I *don't* think MIL is a sociopath. NPD, possibly Histronic Personality Disorder as well (she def has some traits), but she doesn't cross the lines my mother does.

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Here is the short version of my most recent encounter with full on NPD traits.

This has to do with my Ex, and my DS, and is long and complicated.

 

Last Wed, exH berated me because DS couldn't properly recite his times tables. I ended the conversation before totally loosing it. Got the facts from DS and through text made it clear that we did math left and right, DS does in fact know his times tables, (mostly) and that he had made progress in math by leaps and bounds.

I also offered to make copies of school work to give to him, reminded him of DS learning issues, and told him he was welcome to pitch in for curriculum, read books, visit museums etc.

 

Last Thurs, ExH calls and tries to change the schedule with less than 24 hours notice. I put my foot down, refused, and reminded him that other people had plans, and a life. Also said DS got a 100% on the review we just did over paleontology and early prehistoric life.

 

Saturday, ExH turns on 10,000 BC with my son. Pretending to take an interest in DS passion for prehistory. ExH then says to DS that Dinosaurs were the first creatures on earth.

 

DS being passionate and highly knowledgeable, then launches into how actually it was simple organisms like Cyanobacteria, then came soft bodied sea creatures, then arthropods, then jawless fishes, jawed more modern fish, amphibians, then land reptiles etc etc etc.

 

ExH then asks DS what about God? DS tries to tell him that just because we understand the process doesn't mean we don't believe that god put it into motion. ExH then nudges and eye twinkles he was just messing with him anyway.

 

20 minutes later, after the conversation was over, ExH then says to DS, "Well if you believe in all of that, when you die and go to heaven, you will have to look into the face of God, and apologize because you were wrong"

 

 

Apparently while the movie was going on, ExH was also making comments about how HOT! the woman in it was, and saying that she wouldn't really be able to do that stuff because she was just a woman, she probably would just get mad and cry instead.

 

 

1. feign interest

2. create stupid conflict

3. devalue using the most hurtful method possible, while totally ignoring the amazing college level knowledge of child.

4. devalue women, by proxy me as DS mother, DS baby sister, and all the other amazing strong women who lift him up. Also remind him that crazy behavior is to be expected from women, excusing ExMIL behavior.

 

5. feel smug, and powerful, and fatherly for setting him straight.

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