Spin off: Why I don't believe in deciding for my later teens whether to "date"......

[Joanne]

I've been trying to articulate my feelings on the dating issue. I created a spin off because this post moves well beyond the OP's intent.

 

I've been around, familiar with and observing the "courting" and "abstinence" and (conservative) Christian community's response to these issues for oh, about 10 years now.

 

"Courting" and the tone around dating issues has always made me uncomfortable. I think I can wrap words around why now.

 

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

I think that the "courtship movement" is cultish in some cases and definitely trendy in others.

 

I've observed several families who choose "no dating" for their older teens for reasons inspired by how they will look to others.

 

Many parents I've known who choose "not dating" or choose "courtship" have been too restrictive for the ages of their children.

 

I've noticed more legalism in the "no dating camp".

 

I do not see Biblical defense of it; I see and read a lot of *extra* Biblical dogma around it.

 

I see a denial of God given timing, process and biology. While I realize that our teens' habits and culture are influenced by our values and culture, I *also* think that its shaped by biology. The feelings of "want", or "lust" or the process of being infatuated with others is, IMO, organic. I do not believe God wants us to impose on our children "not going there" but to have equipped them to make good choices *while there*.

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious. I think that honest and authentic discussion of those issues needs to begin - age appropriately - at very early ages.

 

I don't believe that parent imposed regulations on "dating" for older teens honor the emerging adult or equip the child/person to grow and mature.

 

I think the heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love are terrific! I don't think that avoiding them is the answer. I think *managing them* is the answer.

[Tracey in TX]

Beautifully stated. I lacked the articulation you clearly have :)

Now, can I send my DCs to you during the dating phase, which will creep up before I blink? (jk, It will be exciting.)

[Dayle in Guatemala]

and want to explain my modified view of courtship.

 

I agree that there has been leagalism involved in the courtship circle at times. I think some of it has been from a sense of keeping our dc from making the same mistakes we did. I know that there are times when, out of fear of them making the same mistakes, I tend to get really strict with my dc when, really, it might not be necessary.

 

I don't agree with dating for dating's sake. Just going from one realtionship to another isn't guarding our hearts or the hearts of others. We need to treat others the way we would want to be treated. We are responsible for how we act towards others.

 

We've been talking with our dc for years about this topic. Our general rule is, while you are pursuing your education, you don't need to get involved in an emotional relationship with someone. It's distracting. It's better to wait until you are ready to make a commitment to that person that fulfills the feelings you are both feeling. Until then, going out as groups and making lots of friends is a good way to know what you like in people and what you don't like.

 

Anyway, I love your points and I love that you're bringing this up. I have a dd who is reaching that age! She's noticing boys and they are noticing her. I'm keeping communication open with her.

[crazycoffeechic]

Beautifully stated. I lacked the articulation you clearly have :)

:iagree:

Now, can I send my DCs to you during the dating phase, which will creep up before I blink? (jk, It will be exciting.)

Me too??;)

[Faithr]

I agree with you! I've let my oldest dd date. I figured she'd work things out herself, which she did. She came to me with issues that developed. She is, however, a very level headed and devout young lady, so frankly I didn't feel very nervous about things. Anyway she's had a couple of boyfriends but has decided that dating isn't for her until she's old enough to really have a relationship. She said it just felt too much like playacting and it made her friends treat her differently which made her uncomfortable. Not that she doesn't sometimes wish she had a boyfriend now and get envious about friends who have boyfriends but when she steps back and looks at the big picture she's still decided not to date until she's out of high school. She's got lots of friends of both genders, so she not missing out on much right now.

 

Now if my dd wasn't who she is, if she was flighty about such things or seemed to be taken over hormonally or what not, it would be a different story, perhaps. I'd have to think things through more and be more proactive possibly.

 

I do think early formation and lots of mother daughter talks about sexuality and Christian living were the key with my oldest dd.

 

So far my 16 yo ds is only interested in girls in the abstract. He hasn't developed any interest for a particular girl, yet. But I think he is influenced by his older sister and thinks along the same lines.

[WTMindy]

I've been trying to articulate my feelings on the dating issue. I created a spin off because this post moves well beyond the OP's intent.

 

I've been around, familiar with and observing the "courting" and "abstinence" and (conservative) Christian community's response to these issues for oh, about 10 years now.

 

"Courting" and the tone around dating issues has always made me uncomfortable. I think I can wrap words around why now.

 

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

I think that the "courtship movement" is cultish in some cases and definitely trendy in others.

 

I've observed several families who choose "no dating" for their older teens for reasons inspired by how they will look to others.

 

Many parents I've known who choose "not dating" or choose "courtship" have been too restrictive for the ages of their children.

 

I've noticed more legalism in the "no dating camp".

 

I do not see Biblical defense of it; I see and read a lot of *extra* Biblical dogma around it.

 

I see a denial of God given timing, process and biology. While I realize that our teens' habits and culture are influenced by our values and culture, I *also* think that its shaped by biology. The feelings of "want", or "lust" or the process of being infatuated with others is, IMO, organic. I do not believe God wants us to impose on our children "not going there" but to have equipped them to make good choices *while there*.

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious. I think that honest and authentic discussion of those issues needs to begin - age appropriately - at very early ages.

 

I don't believe that parent imposed regulations on "dating" for older teens honor the emerging adult or equip the child/person to grow and mature.

 

I think the heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love are terrific! I don't think that avoiding them is the answer. I think *managing them* is the answer.

 

These are interesting points! I have always believed that for courtship to be truly successful it must come from the kid and not the parents. Otherwise, they are just no dating rules and doesn't get to the heart of what I believe courting is attempting to do. And, for the record, I hate the term "courtship". But, purity is important to us. I think there are many ways that purity can be attained. Courting is one of them. But, I know one thing for sure. It isn't the way I went about it. Getting as close to the line as "legally" possible is not purity. So, my dd is only 11 and we are not in that stage yet, but I can see it on the horizen. We are praying about how to help shepherd our kids through the mines of dating.

 

I'll be looking forward to reading the other responses because this is a topic I have become interested in. I will say that when you read Josh Harris's books (I Kissed Dating Goodbye) you don't get the idea that he is cultish. He is a great spokesman for someone who wanted to do things differently than the culture of the day. I think it is how it is played out that becomes a bit legalistic.

[Amy in NH]

I agree that there has been leagalism involved in the courtship circle at times. I think some of it has been from a sense of keeping our dc from making the same mistakes we did. I know that there are times when, out of fear of them making the same mistakes, I tend to get really strict with my dc when, really, it might not be necessary.

 

I don't agree with dating for dating's sake. Just going from one relationship to another isn't guarding our hearts or the hearts of others. We need to treat others the way we would want to be treated. We are responsible for how we act towards others.

 

We've been talking with our dc for years about this topic. Our general rule is, while you are pursuing your education, you don't need to get involved in an emotional relationship with someone. It's distracting. It's better to wait until you are ready to make a commitment to that person that fulfills the feelings you are both feeling. Until then, going out as groups and making lots of friends is a good way to know what you like in people and what you don't like.

 

 

Coming at this from a non-Christian perspective, I don't have any of the hangups or motivations that Joanne mentioned in her OP. However, I am drawn to the idea of courtship for all of the reasons mentioned by Dayle. We have also been discussing these things with our dc all along.

[PrairieAir]

:001_huh: I don't know what to say besides:iagree:, with, I think every point, in fact.:001_huh:I'm just practically speechless, Joanne:D

[Jugglin'5]

and want to explain my modified view of courtship.

 

I agree that there has been leagalism involved in the courtship circle at times. I think some of it has been from a sense of keeping our dc from making the same mistakes we did.

 

I don't agree with dating for dating's sake. Just going from one realtionship to another isn't guarding our hearts or the hearts of others. We need to treat others the way we would want to be treated. We are responsible for how we act towards others.

 

We've been talking with our dc for years about this topic. Our general rule is, while you are pursuing your education, you don't need to get involved in an emotional relationship with someone. It's distracting. It's better to wait until you are ready to make a commitment to that person that fulfills the feelings you are both feeling. Until then, going out as groups and making lots of friends is a good way to know what you like in people and what you don't like.

 

 

I agree with what you've written here, Dayle. I don't think there is anything magical in the term "courtship" that will somehow ward off anything bad happening. I have also seen some "courtship weirdness" amongst our acquaintances.

 

That said, like you, I think it is better for kids to get their education finished and be thinking of marriage before any serious relationship with the opposite sex is started. Multiple breakups don't do anything to stregthen future marriages. Plus, I think it will be a good thing for dh and I to be involved in the process of finding a mate, because sometimes young people need an objectivity that is not available to them due to strong s*xual desire. I know I had several boyfriends that I wish my dad had just said no to for my benefit.

[SusanG]

That said' date=' like you, I think it is better for kids to get their education finished and be thinking of marriage before any serious relationship with the opposite sex is started. Multiple breakups don't do anything to stregthen future marriages. Plus, I think it will be a good thing for dh and I to be involved in the process of finding a mate, because sometimes young people need an objectivity that is not available to them due to strong s*xual desire. I know I had several boyfriends that I wish my dad had just said no to for my benefit.[/quote']

 

 

I'm just not sure I agree that "multiple breakups don't do anything to strengthen future marriages." Sure, it adds "emotional baggage", but it also adds experience, maturity, and perspective. I learned a lot from the relationships I had before dh, and that wisdom has helped carry me through some of the hard times we've had. It's also given me perpective into our relationship, truly realizing the grass isn't greener and all that, when times are tough. I've been through enough to know that truly, for me, it doesn't get any better than this.

 

I hope our dc date quite a bit before settling on something serious, and I hope they have a few serious relationships before deciding to marry. Of course if they choose another path, that's fine - my preference, however, would be for them to go into marriage armed with a little more experience in relationships, and yes, sex.

[Tammy]

Will someone please tell me how to quote a section of a post? Anywho....Dayle....does that also mean when your kids are in college?

[Sharon in SC]

Our general rule is, while you are pursuing your education, you don't need to get involved in an emotional relationship with someone. It's distracting. It's better to wait until you are ready to make a commitment to that person that fulfills the feelings you are both feeling. Until then, going out as groups and making lots of friends is a good way to know what you like in people and what you don't like.

 

 

 

This succinctly summarizes exactly where we stand with regards to teenage dating. As I've stated before, we cannot identify, for our children, one good reason for intimate - meaning one on one boy/girl (even if it remains purely emotional) - relationships. We view these teenage years as a time when they are beautifully able to focus on who *they* are and who they are becoming so that they can in turn recognize a compatible mate when they are in a true position of being able to give their heart to someone else. I've witnessed, at the very least, high emotional prices paid by young people (to include myself during those years) who choose to "date" by conventional standards to know that I desire more for my dds. I had a high school sweetheart. To this day, he has a part of my heart. I love the thought that my girls might carefully be able to choose *who* they want to give their heart to *after* they've had a chance to figure out *who* they are. It is because I don't see that (discovering oneself) happening, reasonably, until late teens at the earliest, that I am confident refraining from getting caught in the snare of emotional dating relationships is not the best thing for my girls. And, I truly do desire the best for them! :)

[Sharon in SC]

I will say that when you read Josh Harris's books (I Kissed Dating Goodbye) you don't get the idea that he is cultish. He is a great spokesman for someone who wanted to do things differently than the culture of the day. I think it is how it is played out that becomes a bit legalistic.

 

:iagree: Josh's presentation of alternative approaches to healthy social lives outside of the dating scene is very sensibly written and I plan for my girls to read his books to better explain why I've suggested to them to consider making the same choices for themselves. For us, it's definitely not about legalism but enabling our girls to make wonderfully terrific choices and decisions for themselves with regards to how they spend their time. I totally support group activities. It's the one on one or even double dating scene (for teens) that I ask the question, "Why?" "Why?" Hopefully, by the time they've reached young adulthood we will have equipped them with a sound approach for walking out successful relationships whether they're still home or not. I don't believe they need to experience one on one relationships with boys while at home to, ultimately, be able to be successful (and pure) in future relationships. We have ample dialogue on everything from why the desire to remain pure is a good one to why that young man would not be a good choice in a mate. Communication. I believe that is one key to reaching the same ultimate goals that the OP has for her children. I believe these goals can be reached without the confusing matters of the typical emotional roller coaster, "why hasn't he called me today?!" dating scene.

[Melissa in CA]

Our general rule is, while you are pursuing your education, you don't need to get involved in an emotional relationship with someone. It's distracting. It's better to wait until you are ready to make a commitment to that person that fulfills the feelings you are both feeling. Until then, going out as groups and making lots of friends is a good way to know what you like in people and what you don't like.

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

This has been our "lifestyle" from the beginning with our boys. The general rule (I hate to say rule, but I don't know a better term?) was no one-on-one dating until after high school at the very least. My boys were both quite receptive to the "rule" and had no problem with it. Now-a-days, the girls they do date, are treated with a maturity that would not have been present at, say, 14/15 years old.

 

This has actually given them a safety net so to speak. They did not have the pressures of their peers in regards to dating, picking up on girls, getting to 1st, 2nd, 3rd base, etc., because they saw it as fruitless and silly. My oldest son told a friend once that he felt it was ludicrous to date someone at 14 when he couldn't possibly marry her for YEARS! Why bother he said. Isn't dating a form of courtship (the finding the girl you want to marry) and why would he want to "court" (date) a girl he could not touch, let alone marry?!

 

I found him very wise...very wise indeed. ;):lol:

[Sharon in SC]

:(now)...the girls they do date, are treated with a maturity that would not have been present at, say, 14/15 years old.

 

 

 

This bears out another huge benefit that I see to waiting to date past the tumultuous and highly emotional teenage years.

[Nestof3]

I'll be the minority here. I disagree with almost everything that you've said. Although we have brought up our oldest in the non-dating thinking, it has not ever been a big issue. Our son is actually in complete agreement with it. He sees no point in getting close to someone and providing an opportunity for his flesh. He's seen his mother sleeping around, having children from various men -- so he knows the dangers of fornication, and he's hoonest enough to admit that his sexual urges are strong enough that he doesn't want to mess with that. The son of a family we know and his girlfriend went to another country together, and our son told me he didn't think that was wise because with no accountability, it would be easy to fall into temptation. I think rather than this being a babyish response, it's a quite mature one. I've seen women who say their husband had an affair and it "just came out of nowhere." That is plain nonsense. These things come from small steps which grow to bigger steps. Our son desires to watch his small steps.

 

We don't have any hard-set rules on this, but we are all in agreement that "going out" and attaching himself to someone before he's near ready for marriage is a waste of time. We don't have it all figured out, and that's okay. Our son has already told us that he desires our input because we have spiritual wisdom.

 

It seems to me that many moms on this board deal with their adult/teen children wanting something different than what their parents want, and so they experience rebellion. The parents feel the rebellion is worse than what they were trying to keep their children away from. With our oldest, we are not keeping him from something he wishes he could do -- he is mature and trying to walk in a manner worthy all on his own.

[Joanne]

say, 14/15 years old.

 

This has actually given them a safety net so to speak. They did not have the pressures of their peers in regards to dating, picking up on girls, getting to 1st, 2nd, 3rd base, etc., because they saw it as fruitless and silly. My oldest son told a friend once that he felt it was ludicrous to date someone at 14 when he couldn't possibly marry her for YEARS! Why bother he said. Isn't dating a form of courtship (the finding the girl you want to marry) and why would he want to "court" (date) a girl he could not touch, let alone marry?!

 

Well, sure. The difference in life-stage, maturity and focus between young, mid and late teens is significant. I have a going on 14 year old; the idea of him "dating" would not be a match for my family's values and the answer is "no".

 

But imposing a "no" on a later teen, near legal adult? That is not the nature of the relationship I think is best for those years. I will have rules regarding "if you still live in this house", but I will not decide for my near adult about dating. I will have communicated (often) my perspective, experience, preference, advice and values, and hope they choose well.

 

And I will be here for them if they don't.

[Crissy]

These are interesting points! I have always believed that for courtship to be truly successful it must come from the kid and not the parents. Otherwise, they are just no dating rules and doesn't get to the heart of what I believe courting is attempting to do. And, for the record, I hate the term "courtship". But, purity is important to us. I think there are many ways that purity can be attained. Courting is one of them. But, I know one thing for sure. It isn't the way I went about it. Getting as close to the line as "legally" possible is not purity. So, my dd is only 11 and we are not in that stage yet, but I can see it on the horizen. We are praying about how to help shepherd our kids through the mines of dating.

 

I'll be looking forward to reading the other responses because this is a topic I have become interested in. I will say that when you read Josh Harris's books (I Kissed Dating Goodbye) you don't get the idea that he is cultish. He is a great spokesman for someone who wanted to do things differently than the culture of the day. I think it is how it is played out that becomes a bit legalistic.

 

Exactly who will my future daughter-in-law be dating anyway?

I am simply planning to send Jeffrey to Spokane the day they are to be married.

 

:confused:

[Jugglin'5]

I'll be the minority here. I disagree with almost everything that you've said. Although we have brought up our oldest in the non-dating thinking, it has not ever been a big issue. Our son is actually in complete agreement with it. He sees no point in getting close to someone and providing an opportunity for his flesh. He's seen his mother sleeping around, having children from various men -- so he knows the dangers of fornication, and he's hoonest enough to admit that his sexual urges are strong enough that he doesn't want to mess with that. The son of a family we know and his girlfriend went to another country together, and our son told me he didn't think that was wise because with no accountability, it would be easy to fall into temptation. I think rather than this being a babyish response, it's a quite mature one. I've seen women who say their husband had an affair and it "just came out of nowhere." That is plain nonsense. These things come from small steps which grow to bigger steps. Our son desires to watch his small steps.

 

We don't have any hard-set rules on this, but we are all in agreement that "going out" and attaching himself to someone before he's near ready for marriage is a waste of time. We don't have it all figured out, and that's okay. Our son has already told us that he desires our input because we have spiritual wisdom.

 

It seems to me that many moms on this board deal with their adult/teen children wanting something different than what their parents want, and so they experience rebellion. The parents feel the rebellion is worse than what they were trying to keep their children away from. With our oldest, we are not keeping him from something he wishes he could do -- he is mature and trying to walk in a manner worthy all on his own.

 

I don't disagree with you here at all.

[Joanne]

Our son is actually in complete agreement with it. He sees no point in getting close to someone and providing an opportunity for his flesh. He's seen his mother sleeping around, having children from various men -- so he knows the dangers of fornication, and he's hoonest enough to admit that his sexual urges are strong enough that he doesn't want to mess with that.

 

I think this is an unfair juxtaposition. The choices aren't limited to promiscuity or no dating. :confused:

 

I see a complete "no dating" rule for near adults to be too restrictive, particularly when it's imposed from parents rather than emerged from the child.

[Sarah CB]

These are interesting points! I have always believed that for courtship to be truly successful it must come from the kid and not the parents. ... We are praying about how to help shepherd our kids through the mines of dating.

 

I'll be looking forward to reading the other responses because this is a topic I have become interested in. I will say that when you read Josh Harris's books (I Kissed Dating Goodbye) you don't get the idea that he is cultish. He is a great spokesman for someone who wanted to do things differently than the culture of the day. I think it is how it is played out that becomes a bit legalistic.

 

I completely agree. My daughter is 12 and we have been discussing the whole growing up process (including sexuality, dating, courtship, purity) for almost a year now. We worked through Preparing Your Daughter for Every Woman's Battle together and now we're reading through Authentic Beauty. I can say "no" to dating all I want, but the decision to remain pure must come from her. She's beginning to articulate her feelings about dating. One of her friends (who is not a Christian) has been saying that once she's 18 she'd like to sleep with a few different men for the experience. She's also a 12 year old and her favourite topic is talking about her newest crush. Dd had the opportunity to speak to her, very gently, about what dd's plans are for herself and her friend said she gave her something to think about.

 

I don't think that legalism is required, I think it's more about guarding your heart and recognizing when marriage may be a possibility and then conducting yourself with integrity.

[LisaNY]

Okay, Joanne, I'm wearing red again...:001_smile:

 

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

That is not my reasoning at all. It's not the "bigness" of the sin, it's the damage that it can do. It is the one sin that is listed in Scripture as "sinning against one's own body." It's a "big deal" to me, because of the wounding effects of s*x outside of marriage.

 

I think that the "courtship movement" is cultish in some cases and definitely trendy in others.

 

I have never been part of the "courtship camp". Call me crazy, but I actually believe that G-d has special men for both of my dd's (if it is His will for them to be married someday). I believe that when the time comes, it will all fall into place. I have faith that it is His will for them to remain pure and "unentangled" until then. I see no evidence in His Word to the contrary.

 

I've observed several families who choose "no dating" for their older teens for reasons inspired by how they will look to others.

 

*Definitely* not our reasoning here. I couldn't care *less* about what we look like to others.

 

Many parents I've known who choose "not dating" or choose "courtship" have been too restrictive for the ages of their children.

 

Yes, it would appear that way to most, since a "no dating" policy seems to be archaic in today's world.

 

I've noticed more legalism in the "no dating camp".

 

Well, if a "no dating" policy is seen as legalistic, then you might call me legalistic. However, my understanding of legalism is an inappropriate focus on "works-righteousness". Again, our reasoning for no dating is by no means a puritannical drive to be holier than thou or pious. It's purely a way of guarding our dd's hearts and well-being - emotional, spiritual and physical.

 

I do not see Biblical defense of it; I see and read a lot of *extra* Biblical dogma around it.

 

I shared a couple of Scriptures in the other thread that support our decision. However, I see no Biblical defense *for* dating. I would also add that my dh and I would feel this way even without Biblical backing.

 

I see a denial of God given timing, process and biology. While I realize that our teens' habits and culture are influenced by our values and culture, I *also* think that its shaped by biology. The feelings of "want", or "lust" or the process of being infatuated with others is, IMO, organic. I do not believe God wants us to impose on our children "not going there" but to have equipped them to make good choices *while there*.

 

Yes, it's as natural as the desire for food and drink. But, my girls can certainly survive without it until the time is right. My explanation above not only doesn't deny G-d, it gives Him complete control as to the timing. I am taking G-d at His Word when He says, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his *wife*, and they shall become one flesh." "Not going there" seems the wiser thing to do than allowing them to get into a situation where they would struggle. And, anyone who tells me kids won't struggle is not being very realistic. I believe that is one of the reasons for the "Flee youthful lusts" verse. Give me one good reason why I would put my dd's in a situation where they are open to falling in love with someone and awakening passions in their hearts when they cannot do anything about it? Why would I want my dd to develop feelings for a boy when she is not ready to make a lifelong committment to one man? The list of risks involved gets long when you give your heart to another.

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious. I think that honest and authentic discussion of those issues needs to begin - age appropriately - at very early ages.

 

We discuss it all of the time. Especially since my older dd is in ps and a few of her classmates are pregnant.

 

I don't believe that parent imposed regulations on "dating" for older teens honor the emerging adult or equip the child/person to grow and mature.

 

On the contrary, we *do* feel we are honoring our dds by protecting them.

 

I think the heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love are terrific! I don't think that avoiding them is the answer. I think *managing them* is the answer.

 

I agree. And it should only happen when the time comes when a young lady or young man is ready to marry. Otherwise, let those passions sleep until the time is right. Not an easy thing to do at all, but what is impossible to man is possible with G-d. We are standing in faith that this is His plan. I actually have a personal story which strengthens our position on this.

My dh's neice came to me several years ago when she was 19. She had one sister that was married, and another involved in a serious relationship. She was really down about the fact that she never had a boyfriend. She's a beautiful girl. I looked her right in the eye and said, "C, I believe, as sure as I am sitting her in front of you that G-d has a man for you. I believe that if you put your trust in Him, and believe that He has the right guy for you if you are willing to wait on Him, you will not be disappointed." She did trust G-d, and made the decision to trust Him to give her the grace to wait. Six months later, she was engaged to a wonderful young man that she had grown up with at her church. They are now happily married with three children. I believe that is the kind of G-d we serve. :001_smile:

[Retired]

my son has said the very same thing. He has educational goal and work goals and said he doesn't want to get emotional or physically involved until he is ready to think about marriage. He does group activities and people are always trying to push him into the one on one relationships.

 

I don't see sex out of marriage as a bigger sin than other, but it does leave you heart broken and I really stress to my boys, that if this happens(sex before marriage) its not the end of the world. I want there hearts whole for future spouse but I also know the Lord forgives and heals.

 

I

[Plucky]

These are interesting points! I have always believed that for courtship to be truly successful it must come from the kid and not the parents. Otherwise, they are just no dating rules and doesn't get to the heart of what I believe courting is attempting to do. And, for the record, I hate the term "courtship". But, purity is important to us. I think there are many ways that purity can be attained. Courting is one of them. But, I know one thing for sure. It isn't the way I went about it. Getting as close to the line as "legally" possible is not purity. So, my dd is only 11 and we are not in that stage yet, but I can see it on the horizen. We are praying about how to help shepherd our kids through the mines of dating.

 

I'll be looking forward to reading the other responses because this is a topic I have become interested in. I will say that when you read Josh Harris's books (I Kissed Dating Goodbye) you don't get the idea that he is cultish. He is a great spokesman for someone who wanted to do things differently than the culture of the day. I think it is how it is played out that becomes a bit legalistic.

 

In our family we don't do courtship but we do encourage delayed dating if possible. I totally agree with it being the kid's choice. We won't allow limited dating until 16 and are strongly encouraging waiting until after 18 but it's not something we are going to force.

 

My belief is that the opposite sex is a distraction from getting to know oneself and can interfere in academic and other goals. In my family we were sexualized very, very early and I regret that. It was such a ridiculous focus in our lives that I find much of my early teen years wasted from it.

[Joanne]

LisaNY,

 

Okay, Joanne, I'm wearing red again...

 

You look good in red. :D And I giggled at your comment.

 

We clearly come at this from different perspectives. I, too, don't see a Biblical reason TO date. I don't see a Biblical reason to be posting on a message board. ;)

 

If my children decide not to "date" as it is done in contemporary, mixed sprituality settings, I won't beg them otherwise. ;) :D

 

While I agree with structuring family lives for success (don't take hungry kids to the store, don't leave valuable knicknacks out when you have a toddler, don't give a cell phone to a child who can't control media......), I don't believe that a "no dating" structure for a near adult - imposed by parents - is best.

 

That is in part influenced by the fact that I don't frame "pure" or "chaste" in the same way as many who embrace "no dating". I don't value avoiding intimate (I do not limit that to sex) relationships for older teens.

 

Yes, I get that in proximity, issues of lust are challenged. I just can't make the leap with you that avoiding proximity is the answer. Particularly if the decisions emerge from the parents instead of the near adult.

[Peek a Boo]

I've been around, familiar with and observing the "courting" and "abstinence" and (conservative) Christian community's response to these issues for oh, about 10 years now.

 

....

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

I think that the "courtship movement" is cultish in some cases and definitely trendy in others.

 

......

I do not see Biblical defense of it; I see and read a lot of *extra* Biblical dogma around it.

 

I see a denial of God given timing, process and biology. While I realize that our teens' habits and culture are influenced by our values and culture, I *also* think that its shaped by biology. The feelings of "want", or "lust" or the process of being infatuated with others is, IMO, organic. I do not believe God wants us to impose on our children "not going there" but to have equipped them to make good choices *while there*.

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious. I think that honest and authentic discussion of those issues needs to begin - age appropriately - at very early ages.

 

I don't believe that parent imposed regulations on "dating" for older teens honor the emerging adult or equip the child/person to grow and mature.

 

I think the heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love are terrific! I don't think that avoiding them is the answer. I think *managing them* is the answer.

 

I agree w/ some of this, and disagree w/ some. Since Joanne included a Biblical POV, I'll focus on that.

 

Yes, i think people --not just Christians-- can turn a rule or idea into uncomfortable cultish problems. As has been stated, there are a LOT of ways people are practicing "courtship." So if nothing else, we all need to take the time to ask someone to define or clarify their own view of courtship before we assume anything.

 

What I have noticed in the last 10 years of exploring the issue is that the biggest question in "courting" isn't so much the spending time w/ the opposite sex as it is about sex itself. Teens and sex are pretty much a hand-in-hand thing for most discussions, whether you're talking about religion or not. As Susan mentioned, some people really just don't have a problem w/ sex outside marriage, but they likely expect it at some point in a dating relationship. And many of the "boundaried dating" ideas line up w/ even many legalistic coursthip models [like groups]. But even most "loose" courtship models don't hold "recreational dating" as something to aspire to.

 

There is quite a LOT of Biblical defense for the high focus on sexual immorality. I must admit to some confusion here --just what portions of scripture that speak about sexual immorality do you think are vague or unclear?? Not that we are to exclude other sins, but we are absolutely warned numerous times about the pitfalls ESPECIALLY of sexual immorality. Not because sexual immorality is any "worse" --only that we tend to be more prone to it, justify, and condone it more ["young love....terrific"].

Young love exercised in a scriptural way is absolutely terrific. So is Old love ;)

 

SusanG's post makes sense from a non-scriptural POV, but it it simply goes directly against scripture, so I can't accept it as wisdom [even tho I did more than my fair share of spins around the block myself --riding in a car at 15?! oh yeah. that is NOT gonna stop a "date" lol]. I've learned more about maturity, perspective, and strength by reading and talking to good role models than by doing things i shouldn't have. Kinda like learning more about health by observing and reading and taking a first aid class rather than intentionally burning my hand on the stove.

 

Biology: just because we are capable of doing something or feeling strongly about something does not give us license [scripturally] to explore it or do it.

Controlling our emotions and bodies doesn't "deny" God --it honors Him scripturally. He readies our bodies for things we will --or might- do. that doesn't mean we are READY to be doing those things, it simply means we WILl be ready one day to do those things. We are told all throughout the Bible to keep a rein on what we do and say. I do agree that kids need to be well-informed so they have solid facts that can help explain why they feel the way they do, and things they can do to keep their emotions and bodies in check [even as adults].

 

I don't see why parent-imposed rules for dating are any less honoring than parent imposed rules on not smoking, not drinking, or not doing other things a parent deems unhealthy [spiritually or physically] for an emerging adult. There's a reason they are EMERGING adults and NOT adults. Rules and standards obviously DO equip us --they teach us how to deal w/ the world in a way that is honoring to God and others. Many of us are still learning things as adults that we should have been practicing for years! Adults are not exempt from rules and standards. [altho a few of us *coughyourstrulycough* are prone to bending them quite a bit.....] Whether we like it or not, those rules and standards exist. We are to train up a child in the way they should go... not in the way they shouldn't go. Sex and intimate relationships outside the bounds of marriage are pretty clear scripturally as being "not good." Like any sin, it is certainly forgivable.

 

I think Dayle put it well. Should they get to know other people of the opposite sex? of course! But the main point of courting is being able to tell when you are ready to move from a friendship to considering a lifelong marriage. I agree that legalism isn't going to work --some kids are ready for courting at 15. others need to wait till they are 30 ;)

 

we aren't told to manage our sins, but to do what we can to prevent them: to do what we can to help our children in preventing them, and to encourage other Believers in preventing them.

prevent and repent :)

[Jugglin'5]

Lisa's post was great from my POV. I would like to add a few more thoughts.

 

I think that the "courtship movement" is cultish in some cases and definitely trendy in others. True, but the modern approach to dating doesn't have a stellar track record. Any time people attempt to do anything counter-cultural, like homeschooling for instance, some odd things will happen...

 

I've observed several families who choose "no dating" for their older teens for reasons inspired by how they will look to others. So what? Some people homeschool for the same reason.

 

I've noticed more legalism in the "no dating camp". Again, so what? Same thing in homeschooling circles.

I see a denial of God given timing, process and biology. While I realize that our teens' habits and culture are influenced by our values and culture, I *also* think that its shaped by biology. The feelings of "want", or "lust" or the process of being infatuated with others is, IMO, organic. I do not believe God wants us to impose on our children "not going there" but to have equipped them to make good choices *while there*. I think it is a great time for them to learn and practice chastity. I also want my sons to have this ability when they go away on extended business trips, or military duty, should they ever be in that position.

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious. I think that honest and authentic discussion of those issues needs to begin - age appropriately - at very early ages. Who says these conversations are not happening? I get the sense that you think I must be too "repressed" to discuss these things with my children? Perhaps that is not what you intended.

 

I don't believe that parent imposed regulations on "dating" for older teens honor the emerging adult or equip the child/person to grow and mature. I agree that if they haven't been taught these ideas for a long time, and aren't in basic agreement with them, that trying to do a late in the game clamp down might do more harm than good.

 

 

[Jugglin'5]

Will someone please tell me how to quote a section of a post? Anywho....Dayle....does that also mean when your kids are in college?

 

I usually either cut and paste, highlight, and click on the little yellow square quote thingy above (next to the add image thingy); or I quote the whole thing with the big quote button, and delete the parts I don't want.

[Peek a Boo]

I don't see a Biblical reason to be posting on a message board. ;)

 

While I agree with structuring family lives for success (don't take hungry kids to the store, don't leave valuable knicknacks out when you have a toddler, don't give a cell phone to a child who can't control media......), I don't believe that a "no dating" structure for a near adult - imposed by parents - is best.

 

Yes, I get that in proximity, issues of lust are challenged. I just can't make the leap with you that avoiding proximity is the answer. Particularly if the decisions emerge from the parents instead of the near adult.

 

actually, posting on a message board is simple communication... and encouraged in scripture :D

 

i think the "is best" just needs to be qualified with "for our family."

 

avoiding proximity is basic geography. It certainly won't SOLVE anything in and of itself on a long term basis. But it CAN prevent a whole lot of physical activity ;) Not letting my kids near a pack of cigs won't prevent them from smoking later either, but it's still my call, and one made on experience and knowledge that kids just don't have [having seen more people suffer medically from cigarttes, more diverse knowledge of details of medical issues, etc].

 

but as I shared earlier, avoiding proximity isn't necessarily the point -or goal- of courtship.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Will someone please tell me how to quote a section of a post? Anywho....Dayle....does that also mean when your kids are in college?

 

 

It would depend, for sure in high school. As for how we've worded it to our dc, when you're ready to take on the reponsibilities of a family. In other words when they can support their life outside of school.

 

Some people can really handle that in college. They can pay rent, make the necessary payments that come up and do college at the same time. I, however, wasn't one of those! I don't know if my dc will be or not. I think that when they take on the responsibility of a relationship, they should be able to follow that through to marriage if that relationship leads to that. I don't plan on paying the rent or bills for my married child. They should be able to do that for themselves.

 

I would prefer that they wait until college is done and their life outside of college has begun, but, really, that's up to them.

[Krista in LA]

My dd just came back from karate camp with a boyfriend. She is almost 13, he is 12. We know the boy and his family from church and karate so I'm not really bothered by it. He is a good boy and comes from a wonderful family. I think it's cute how they sit together at karate and e-mail each other (I have access to her e-mail so I can read them all if I want, but I don't think she realizes this). But I wonder how I would feel about it if it was someone I didn't know. I guess I just see it as an innocent crush at this point. Should I be worrying about it? I liked boys a lot from the time I was her age. But liking boys, having a boyfriend, and even going out on dates didn't make me any less pure. I had my morals and I stuck with them. More than once a boy did try to push things, but I had no problem saying no. Does dating necessarily lead to bad things? It didn't for me, but I also realize that it's a different world we live in now. I just so enjoyed those dating years and learned a lot about myself and others that I would hate to deprive my child of it.

[Faithr]

I think that it has to come from the teen too. If you've convinced the teen that postponing dating/courtship (however you come at the issue) is best, then okay. If the teen has come to their own conclusions about it, then great! If it is merely the parent forcing it on the child then I see a potential for serious rebellion. In fact I know a family where the mother just pushed the whole chastity thing down her dd's throat in a very controlling way and dd went to college and came home pregnant. I swear just to get back at her mom. You can't strong arm it, especially when a teen is older and really is a young adult and not a so much a kid anymore. Things get very tricky during that period, where parents have to learn to let go and yet somehow be there to guide with a firm hand.

 

And here's another thing, I have a very happily married sister who met her dh when they were 14. They dated all through high school and wound up marrying at age 21. I know they were chaste that whole time. I know because my sister came sobbing to me when she discovered that her now grown daughter was living with a man. She said through tears that she and my bil had waited all those years for their wedding night. They had made that sacrifice for each other. And she couldn't understand why her dd and boyfriend couldn't do so as well. They've been married for 35 years now. What do you do if your child meets the love of their life at age 14? How do you, the parent, know the right person that G-d has chosen? Another ex. The end of sophmore year I started dating a guy. We dated for 5 years. My parents loved him! Everyone thought he was the one! However, we broke up and I wound up marrying somebody else entirely (LOL). Very happily married now for almost 20 years. So my point is G-d may know but we might make assumptions or jump to conclusions that aren't necessarily correct.

 

I personally can not have a 'policy' about such things. I guess my approach is "Love God and do what you will). The first part takes care of the second part. I teach my kids that they are put on this earth to know, love and serve God. That He desires us to be virtuous. I do teach them that it is wise to avoid the near occasion of sin. But other than that, they need to work it out for themselves (with my guidance of course). For some kids 'courtship' might fit them, others might be daters, others might not want to do anything until they feel they've found Mr/Mrs Right. It has to come from their heart. Hopefully a heart that is grounded in Truth.

[Joanne]

I get the sense that you think I must be too "repressed" to discuss these things with my children?

 

I can't say. This thread is not about *you* and I don't know you.

 

True, but the modern approach to dating doesn't have a stellar track record.

 

My first response was "I agree". But, really, what do you mean by that? Teenage pregnancies? Pre-marital sex? Divorce rate? Porn addiction?

 

I *do* agree that the hyper and accelerated sexual maturity of children is a huge concern of modern life and parenting.

[Sharon in SC]

Okay, Joanne, I'm wearing red again...:001_smile:

 

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

That is not my reasoning at all. It's not the "bigness" of the sin, it's the damage that it can do. It is the one sin that is listed in Scripture as "sinning against one's own body." It's a "big deal" to me, because of the wounding effects of s*x outside of marriage.

 

I think that the "courtship movement" is cultish in some cases and definitely trendy in others.

 

I have never been part of the "courtship camp". Call me crazy, but I actually believe that G-d has special men for both of my dd's (if it is His will for them to be married someday). I believe that when the time comes, it will all fall into place. I have faith that it is His will for them to remain pure and "unentangled" until then. I see no evidence in His Word to the contrary.

 

I've observed several families who choose "no dating" for their older teens for reasons inspired by how they will look to others.

 

*Definitely* not our reasoning here. I couldn't care *less* about what we look like to others.

 

Many parents I've known who choose "not dating" or choose "courtship" have been too restrictive for the ages of their children.

 

Yes, it would appear that way to most, since a "no dating" policy seems to be archaic in today's world.

 

I've noticed more legalism in the "no dating camp".

 

Well, if a "no dating" policy is seen as legalistic, then you might call me legalistic. However, my understanding of legalism is an inappropriate focus on "works-righteousness". Again, our reasoning for no dating is by no means a puritannical drive to be holier than thou or pious. It's purely a way of guarding our dd's hearts and well-being - emotional, spiritual and physical.

 

I do not see Biblical defense of it; I see and read a lot of *extra* Biblical dogma around it.

 

I shared a couple of Scriptures in the other thread that support our decision. However, I see no Biblical defense *for* dating. I would also add that my dh and I would feel this way even without Biblical backing.

 

I see a denial of God given timing, process and biology. While I realize that our teens' habits and culture are influenced by our values and culture, I *also* think that its shaped by biology. The feelings of "want", or "lust" or the process of being infatuated with others is, IMO, organic. I do not believe God wants us to impose on our children "not going there" but to have equipped them to make good choices *while there*.

 

Yes, it's as natural as the desire for food and drink. But, my girls can certainly survive without it until the time is right. My explanation above not only doesn't deny G-d, it gives Him complete control as to the timing. I am taking G-d at His Word when He says, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his *wife*, and they shall become one flesh." "Not going there" seems the wiser thing to do than allowing them to get into a situation where they would struggle. And, anyone who tells me kids won't struggle is not being very realistic. I believe that is one of the reasons for the "Flee youthful lusts" verse. Give me one good reason why I would put my dd's in a situation where they are open to falling in love with someone and awakening passions in their hearts when they cannot do anything about it? Why would I want my dd to develop feelings for a boy when she is not ready to make a lifelong committment to one man? The list of risks involved gets long when you give your heart to another.

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious. I think that honest and authentic discussion of those issues needs to begin - age appropriately - at very early ages.

 

We discuss it all of the time. Especially since my older dd is in ps and a few of her classmates are pregnant.

 

I don't believe that parent imposed regulations on "dating" for older teens honor the emerging adult or equip the child/person to grow and mature.

 

On the contrary, we *do* feel we are honoring our dds by protecting them.

 

I think the heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love are terrific! I don't think that avoiding them is the answer. I think *managing them* is the answer.

 

I agree. And it should only happen when the time comes when a young lady or young man is ready to marry. Otherwise, let those passions sleep until the time is right. Not an easy thing to do at all, but what is impossible to man is possible with G-d. We are standing in faith that this is His plan. I actually have a personal story which strengthens our position on this.

My dh's neice came to me several years ago when she was 19. She had one sister that was married, and another involved in a serious relationship. She was really down about the fact that she never had a boyfriend. She's a beautiful girl. I looked her right in the eye and said, "C, I believe, as sure as I am sitting her in front of you that G-d has a man for you. I believe that if you put your trust in Him, and believe that He has the right guy for you if you are willing to wait on Him, you will not be disappointed." She did trust G-d, and made the decision to trust Him to give her the grace to wait. Six months later, she was engaged to a wonderful young man that she had grown up with at her church. They are now happily married with three children. I believe that is the kind of G-d we serve. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: LIsa, I've been hoping all morning to carve the time to do what you've done (broken down the OP's comments one by one and respond with my thoughts). You beat me to it and, more than that, said for the most part the very things I wanted to say so, thanks for taking the time. I'll just say, "Ditto". :)

[Sharon in SC]

Joanne,

I appreciate you taking the time to express your thoughts to the degree that you have. It has opened up a very honest and enlightening discussion. While we'll just need to agree to disagree on this issue, I am confident that your children are blessed to be able to call you "mom"! :-) Sharon

[Jill- OK]

We don't have it all figured out, and that's okay.

 

As I was trying to formulate my answer, I thought of the song (is it Carole King?) that says..."You never know how it's all gonna work out...and that's okay..."

 

:)

 

Now, I'll be honest and say that our preference is that our kids not date until they're ready to marry....but who knows what's coming, in the future?

 

I'll be even more honest and say that at least one of my kids has told me that they're not sure they can follow the path we'd like them to, on this issue. (This is shared with the child's permission, btw...I asked before I posted.)

 

And I'm grateful for the heads-up, not only because I need to be sure that information is shared to prepare for a wide variety of eventual situations, but because I can kind of get a pulse for where I am in my brain-washing scheme, and realize that I need to crank it up a notch, lol. (Just kidding. Sort of.)

 

In all seriousness, I look at this as I do other parenting; I have an idea that I believe is best, and so I'm trying my darndest to persuade my kids of its bestness. :) My husband has many of the same ideas that I do, but he believes in the issuing of proclamations ("YOU WILL DO IT THUSLY!!"). So the actual approach we end up with is somewhere in between those two mindsets, lol.

 

While I do think there's a time and place for "You need to do this", and being firm about certain absolutes, I think it's much more pervasive and permanent to persuade. :D

 

All that to say, we do have a goal, and a general big picture, for what we'd like our kids to do regarding dating in their late teens...but we don't have it all figured out, and we're learning most of it as we go.

 

And I have to add that while I know there have been books about 'courtship' and delayed or only serious dating written, and so there's probably a 'following' that closely resembles their specific prescription...the actual people I know who have discouraged their own kids from the typical cultural dating don't fit into any 'movement'. They're just folks, trying to navigate a different path with their kids from what the overwhelming majority of the 'world' does, and it doesn't look at all 'cultish'. Their kids are normal, well-adjusted, and on board with what their parents are promoting.

 

(Just for the record, I don't necessarily like the term 'courtship', but it's probably because what I would like to see my kids do doesn't fall into that category; I just say that I don't like 'casual' dating, and would encourage my kids to take it very seriously, and not date anyone until they could feasibly be married, and not date anyone that wouldn't make a suitable spouse. We've told our older kids that we prefer that they keep a wide circle of (male and female) friends, instead of dating as young teens, and if there's someone that they like to a greater degree than simple friendship (it's already happened a couple of times)...just wait it out. If it comes to nothing, you'll still have them as a friend in the end. If it's meant to be something more, and the person is worth it...a little time won't hurt, and it just might help.)

[Jugglin'5]

Quote:

I get the sense that you think I must be too "repressed" to discuss these things with my children?

I can't say. This thread is not about *you* and I don't know you.

 

 

I was using myself as a representative of the group of parents you were addressing.

[Tammy]

I usually either cut and paste, highlight, and click on the little yellow square quote thingy above (next to the add image thingy); or I quote the whole thing with the big quote button, and delete the parts I don't want.

 

Wow...I never knew I could do it that way (with the yellow thingy)....that is much better...I think, LOL! (I hope it worked)

 

Thanks!

 

Tammy

[Alenee]

This succinctly summarizes exactly where we stand with regards to teenage dating. As I've stated before, we cannot identify, for our children, one good reason for intimate - meaning one on one boy/girl (even if it remains purely emotional) - relationships. We view these teenage years as a time when they are beautifully able to focus on who *they* are and who they are becoming so that they can in turn recognize a compatible mate when they are in a true position of being able to give their heart to someone else. I've witnessed, at the very least, high emotional prices paid by young people (to include myself during those years) who choose to "date" by conventional standards to know that I desire more for my dds. I had a high school sweetheart. To this day, he has a part of my heart. I love the thought that my girls might carefully be able to choose *who* they want to give their heart to *after* they've had a chance to figure out *who* they are. It is because I don't see that (discovering oneself) happening, reasonably, until late teens at the earliest, that I am confident refraining from getting caught in the snare of emotional dating relationships is not the best thing for my girls. And, I truly do desire the best for them! :)

 

:iagree:

 

I'm not one to put sexual sin over another type of sin. I just see how it affected myself and my friends in school. Because we "experienced" it before our marriages, we never got to experience the wonders of sharing that for the first time with the one we'll spend the rest of our lives with. It's not called sin so God can say, "You're bad!" It's called sin because He has better for us and He knows it can hurt you....even the slightest emotional pain, it hurts you. I pray my girls will get to have those wonderful, exciting experiences with the one they'll be with until they die. The "baggage" isn't worth it just so they can know what they like.

[WTMindy]

Exactly who will my future daughter-in-law be dating anyway?

I am simply planning to send Jeffrey to Spokane the day they are to be married.

 

:confused:

 

If her father has anything to say about.....NO ONE!! And, I really think we should have the reception at our library, don't you?! They have a beautiful little courtyard outside and I think it would be oh so appropriate!!

[Jugglin'5]

(Just for the record, I don't necessarily like the term 'courtship', but it's probably because what I would like to see my kids do doesn't fall into that category; I just say that I don't like 'casual' dating, and would encourage my kids to take it very seriously, and not date anyone until they could feasibly be married, and not date anyone that wouldn't make a suitable spouse. We've told our (relatively young) teens that we prefer that they keep a wide circle of (male and female) friends, instead of dating as young teens, and if there's someone that they like to a greater degree than simple friendship (it's already happened a couple of times)...just wait it out. If it comes to nothing, you'll still have them as a friend in the end. If it's meant to be something more, and the person is worth it...a little time won't hurt, and it just might help.)

 

I think this is very wise. Courtship can definitely be a loaded word, fraught with images of two geeks sitting on the couch together holding hands while Mom and Dad watch....ick. :)

[Sharon in SC]

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

That is not my reasoning at all. It's not the "bigness" of the sin, it's the damage that it can do. It is the one sin that is listed in Scripture as "sinning against one's own body." It's a "big deal" to me, because of the wounding effects of s*x outside of marriage.

 

I did want to emphasize this point - our pastor has a terrific sermon on why s*xual sin is so deadly. It's not because it is a "bigger deal" than any other sin - sin is sin. It is because this particular sin has such far reaching repercussions and affects the condition of the soul in a way that most other sins do not. Oh, how I desire to see my ds spared these repercussions!

[Jill- OK]

I don't necessarily put s&xual sin above and beyond any other sin, speaking as a Christian...but in a practical sense (and I honestly believe I would think this, even as a non-Christian, just because of my personality and beliefs about intimacy), s&x is simply a different animal from envy or gossip.

 

Pregnancy and STDs are serious business. So is the emotional engagement that a healthy-minded person would attach to a s&xual relationship (I'm talking simply from a psychological perspective, not a Christian one), and the pain associated with breaking that engagement. (And the effects of doing it serially, and long term).

 

I guess I see it (the rise in a trend of discouraging dating for really young folks) as sort of a natural pendulum swing from the s&xual revolution, lol.

[Kelli in TN]

I've been around, familiar with and observing the "courting" and "abstinence" and (conservative) Christian community's response to these issues for oh, about 10 years now.

 

I have been around the courtship vs. debate issue for at least as long and I have been through the teen years with two kids and have a kid in the later teen years now. I just say this to qualify my experience and stance on the issue of dating.

 

.

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

I don't see this at all among healthy, well balanced Christians. I don't see it as a "bigger" sin, but it is probably a larger temptation to many kids than say, stealing. I think if teens were tempted to go out together and shoplift to the degree that they are tempted to flirt with sexual experiences, we would see books and seminars on teaching kids to say no to stealing. I think it is a big deal to parents and pastors and authors and seminar speakers because sex is a big exciting thing to teens.

 

I think that the "courtship movement" is cultish in some cases and definitely trendy in others.

 

I've observed several families who choose "no dating" for their older teens for reasons inspired by how they will look to others.

 

Many parents I've known who choose "not dating" or choose "courtship" have been too restrictive for the ages of their children.

 

I've noticed more legalism in the "no dating camp".

 

I do not see Biblical defense of it; I see and read a lot of *extra* Biblical dogma around it.

 

I see all of this crop up at times in the homeschool world too. And yet, we still homeschool. Any good idea can be misused and made into legalism. That does not make the original idea behind it wrong. Unbalanced people will behave in an unbalanced way. Period.

 

 

I see a denial of God given timing, process and biology. While I realize that our teens' habits and culture are influenced by our values and culture, I *also* think that its shaped by biology. The feelings of "want", or "lust" or the process of being infatuated with others is, IMO, organic. I do not believe God wants us to impose on our children "not going there" but to have equipped them to make good choices *while there*.

 

I am not entirely sure what you are saying here.

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious. I think that honest and authentic discussion of those issues needs to begin - age appropriately - at very early ages.

 

Absolutely. I actually begin preparing my children long before they come to the realization that the opposite gender does not have cooties.

 

I don't believe that parent imposed regulations on "dating" for older teens honor the emerging adult or equip the child/person to grow and mature.

Do you believe that parents should impose regulations on driving the family car? How about curfews? Contributing to the overall running of the household? What about friends, what if your teen is running with drug users? Would you impose regulations on those friendships? At what point are you done parenting? I guess that is the real question.

 

I think the heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love are terrific! I don't think that avoiding them is the answer. I think *managing them* is the answer.

When it's done right it is a amazing. Watching my son fall in love for the first time with the girl who became his girlfriend, and then his fiance and then his wife was beautiful and exciting. Knowing that neither of them had ever had more than a crush on anyone else and that they came into marriage with no baggage from other relationships was fantastic.

Watching my daughter fall in love too young and then end up hurt and knowing that there was a young man who we learned to love as a son hurting too was anguish. Had she waited until she was ready so much pain could have been avoided.

I have a 17 year old teen right now who has never been on a date, never had a crush. She is simply too busy. She studies, she works, she immerses herself in community service. She is healthy, happy, well rounded and in no hurry to fall in love. She has plans for her life and knows that at this stage teen "love" would only get in the way.

 

If one is not anywhere near ready for marriage, then what is the point of falling in love? If one is not anywhere near ready for falling in love, what is the point of dating? Life is long, use the teen years for something better than the pairing off and breaking up that is really only a dress rehearsal for divorce,

 

The heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love more often lead to heartbreak and regret than they do to anything positive. It's a part of the teen experience that I would just as soon my kids skip if at all possible.

[Sharon in SC]

I have been around the courtship vs. debate issue for at least as long and I have been through the teen years with two kids and have a kid in the later teen years now. I just say this to qualify my experience and stance on the issue of dating.

 

.

 

 

I don't see this at all among healthy, well balanced Christians. I don't see it as a "bigger" sin, but it is probably a larger temptation to many kids than say, stealing. I think if teens were tempted to go out together and shoplift to the degree that they are tempted to flirt with sexual experiences, we would see books and seminars on teaching kids to say no to stealing. I think it is a big deal to parents and pastors and authors and seminar speakers because sex is a big exciting thing to teens.

 

 

 

I see all of this crop up at times in the homeschool world too. And yet, we still homeschool. Any good idea can be misused and made into legalism. That does not make the original idea behind it wrong. Unbalanced people will behave in an unbalanced way. Period.

 

 

 

 

I am not entirely sure what you are saying here.

 

 

 

Absolutely. I actually begin preparing my children long before they come to the realization that the opposite gender does not have cooties.

 

 

Do you believe that parents should impose regulations on driving the family car? How about curfews? Contributing to the overall running of the household? What about friends, what if your teen is running with drug users? Would you impose regulations on those friendships? At what point are you done parenting? I guess that is the real question.

 

 

When it's done right it is a amazing. Watching my son fall in love for the first time with the girl who became his girlfriend, and then his fiance and then his wife was beautiful and exciting. Knowing that neither of them had ever had more than a crush on anyone else and that they came into marriage with no baggage from other relationships was fantastic.

Watching my daughter fall in love too young and then end up hurt and knowing that there was a young man who we learned to love as a son hurting too was anguish. Had she waited until she was ready so much pain could have been avoided.

I have a 17 year old teen right now who has never been on a date, never had a crush. She is simply too busy. She studies, she works, she immerses herself in community service. She is healthy, happy, well rounded and in no hurry to fall in love. She has plans for her life and knows that at this stage teen "love" would only get in the way.

 

If one is not anywhere near ready for marriage, then what is the point of falling in love? If one is not anywhere near ready for falling in love, what is the point of dating? Life is long, use the teen years for something better than the pairing off and breaking up that is really only a dress rehearsal for divorce,

 

The heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love more often lead to heartbreak and regret than they do to anything positive. It's a part of the teen experience that I would just as soon my kids skip if at all possible.

 

:iagree: Very well said, Kelli!

[Laurie4b]

While I agree that there is a tendency among Christians to elevate sexual sin in some respects (pastors caught in sexual misdeeds are much more likely to be disciplined, asked to step down, etc. than pastors caught in power trips, for instance), I think that with respect to premarital sexual activity, the emphasis is there not because the act is elevated as a sin, but because the consequences of that particular sin can be life-long in terms of disease, relationship scarring , and sexual dysfunction in the marriage relationship. Many parents have BTDT and wish to spare their children in the same way that parents who have BTDT with respect to alcoholism or drug use or lack of financial management, etc. wish to spare theirs.

 

I think the issue is more about control than anything else. I do believe that some parents believe that the more they control the child, the safer he or she will be. I don't personally believe that, and have the outlook that it's good to give over reins of control deliberately and in a graduated way while the kids are still living with us, so that by the time they leave the home, "being on their own" will not really be a new experience.

 

That said, we don't currently allow dating until 16 (that's a rule) and we strongly counsel our kids, from our own experience, that the very best way to approach male-female relationships is through friendships until you are pretty sure you are interested in marrying a particular person. That's wisdom offered that they can choose to learn from, or they can learn the hard way. What they choose will be their choice.

 

Our objections to dating go beyond the sexual; we are very concerned about the consumerism. Boy meets girl, takes her out for a spin for a few weeks, decides she's not the right model and moves on, or vice versa. Human beings should not be treated like cars. Our culture's whole dating system is based on that kind of consumerism. Break-ups often mean the relationship cannot go on in any way because there is so much pain. (This is exactly why some businesses prohibit dating among staff. Not only does it create conflicts of interest while the dating is going on, but the repurcussions of a break-up can disturb the whole office) . We see this as counter to a Christian way of relating to other people.

[Mx5]

I've been trying to articulate my feelings on the dating issue. I created a spin off because this post moves well beyond the OP's intent.

 

I've been around, familiar with and observing the "courting" and "abstinence" and (conservative) Christian community's response to these issues for oh, about 10 years now.

 

"Courting" and the tone around dating issues has always made me uncomfortable. I think I can wrap words around why now.

 

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

I think that the "courtship movement" is cultish in some cases and definitely trendy in others.

 

I've observed several families who choose "no dating" for their older teens for reasons inspired by how they will look to others.

 

Many parents I've known who choose "not dating" or choose "courtship" have been too restrictive for the ages of their children.

 

I've noticed more legalism in the "no dating camp".

 

I do not see Biblical defense of it; I see and read a lot of *extra* Biblical dogma around it.

 

I see a denial of God given timing, process and biology. While I realize that our teens' habits and culture are influenced by our values and culture, I *also* think that its shaped by biology. The feelings of "want", or "lust" or the process of being infatuated with others is, IMO, organic. I do not believe God wants us to impose on our children "not going there" but to have equipped them to make good choices *while there*.

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious. I think that honest and authentic discussion of those issues needs to begin - age appropriately - at very early ages.

 

I don't believe that parent imposed regulations on "dating" for older teens honor the emerging adult or equip the child/person to grow and mature.

 

I think the heady, wonderful, exciting feelings of young love are terrific! I don't think that avoiding them is the answer. I think *managing them* is the answer.

 

 

 

The thing we've taught our kids is that dating is for deciding on a mate. If you're not old enough to marry, you're better off having fabulous friendships with no strings attached than diving into the whole "teens must date" junk.

 

By dating here, I mean exclusive relationships, not casual having fun out and about type times.

 

It was all theory until my kids actually saw what's left behind in the wake of the teen dating culture. Couples they thought would be together for life broke up. They quit talking to each other. Their friends were split over whom to hang out with. The list goes on. Very similar to divorce. My kids learned by watching, not so much from mom and dad's counsel. They've seen and in my dd's case experienced first hand the wonders of infatuation, and how quickly it wears off to a disdain of that person whom months earlier was the best guy in the world.

 

We've taught our kids that dating is for when a person is mature enough to handle those issues. We've impressed on them how wonderful it is to find someone who truly loves you, but more often than not, we generally don't find those people when we're between the ages of 12-17. Our approach has not been fear or disinformation, just reality. Since our marriage is full of joy, laughter and life long commitment, our kids have all told us this is what they want, too, in their marriages. Our response? Love is worth the wait, and have fun getting to know lots of people without all the drama of dating.

 

Simple, but it works for us.

 

Perhaps the issue with sexual sin that you view as a focus in some Christian communities is that it not only is sin, but it hurts our own bodies? Even Paul said, "Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."

 

Sin is sin, and it is detestable to God. I think I understand your rhetoric implication, but I do understand also why it can be such a focus.

 

Most families I know around here who have adopted a no dating policy for their teens have done so not by imposing unrealistic standards, but by having frank two-way discussions. We don't see that so much with parents of younger kids, but as our kids get older we realize that we need to really converse with them and include them when trying to teach these life lessons.

[LisaNY]

You look good in red. :D And I giggled at your comment.

 

Why, thank you, Joanne!

 

 

That is in part influenced by the fact that I don't frame "pure" or "chaste" in the same way as many who embrace "no dating". I don't value avoiding intimate (I do not limit that to sex) relationships for older teens.

 

Joanne, could you clarify your meaning here? You don't value avoiding intimate relationships, correct? You don't mean that you don't value avoiding s*x for older teens, correct?

 

Yes, I get that in proximity, issues of lust are challenged. I just can't make the leap with you that avoiding proximity is the answer. Particularly if the decisions emerge from the parents instead of the near adult.

 

I don't think avoiding dating as a means to avoid tempting/compromising situations is a leap at all. We know what happens when a moth flies too close to a flame, right? As parents, my dh and I made the decision early on that our dds would not be dating until ready for marriage. We have nurtured and raised them with that in mind. They are completely clear on our feelings about dating, and the lines of communication are wide open. They (so far) actually agree with our stance on dating, and understand why we feel the way we do. It makes no sense to them to date, either. As I shared in another post, we are well aware of the difficulties that come when making this kind of choice.

[Amy loves Bud]

...

One reason is I think the whole rhetoric that's developed around it is another representation of Christians making sexual sin a bigger deal than other sin. We seem to bring time, energy and focus to sexual sin (homosexuality, porn, sex out of wedlock......) that we do not to other sin.

 

....

 

I agree that the issues of early/premature/premarital sex are pervasive, life long and serious.

 

 

 

You just explained why the focus is what it is, Joanne! ;) Not to mention that those sorts of sin necessarily involve other people.

 

I doubt we will end up being a courtship type of family. But I'll tell you this - I will actively discourage one one one dating. I think young people spending time together in group activities is a much healthier model in the later teen years.

 

I believe this because I was every parent's dream child. Straight A, scholarships rolling in, very involved in school and church activities, strong Christian (not just in word but in deed), and my boyfriend was the same. Really I hope my children will be just like we were. Except for the things we did parked in my boyfriend's car in my parents' driveway.

 

I knew the potential ramifications, but I. was. in. love. That heady, young love that you describe. So while we will probably go in a different direction than courtship, I certainly understand those who do go in that direction.

[Joanne]

That is in part influenced by the fact that I don't frame "pure" or "chaste" in the same way as many who embrace "no dating". I don't value avoiding intimate (I do not limit that to sex) relationships for older teens.

Joanne, could you clarify your meaning here? You don't value avoiding intimate relationships, correct? You don't mean that you don't value avoiding s*x for older teens, correct?

 

No, incorrect. With love, of course! ;) I do value waiting until marriage for sex; not necessarily affection.

 

Yes, I get that in proximity, issues of lust are challenged. I just can't make the leap with you that avoiding proximity is the answer. Particularly if the decisions emerge from the parents instead of the near adult.

I don't think avoiding dating as a means to avoid tempting/compromising situations is a leap at all. We know what happens when a moth flies too close to a flame, right? As parents, my dh and I made the decision early on that our dds would not be dating until ready for marriage. We have nurtured and raised them with that in mind. They are completely clear on our feelings about dating, and the lines of communication are wide open. They (so far) actually agree with our stance on dating, and understand why we feel the way we do. It makes no sense to them to date, either. As I shared in another post, we are well aware of the difficulties that come when making this kind of choice.

 

I understand and respect that perspective. I think that the above choice needs to come from the kids and not the parents.

 

I bolded part of my quote from your post. This, to me, speaks to part of my stand against parental imposed "no dating". By the time a child is ready for marriage, parental decisions for the child should have long ceased.

 

I don't disagree that not dating is a good thing! I certainly agree that it's imperative we communicate God's rules on sex and intimacy. But I see maturity and autonomy as a continuum; I expect older teens to be on a different place on that continuum than you do - at least on this issue. A near adult child who can study, work, file taxes, assist with homemaking, have a budget, pay for some of their own stuff.....should be the one to decide on dating related issues for themselves. That does not mean I'd provide a room for them, allow overnights, or encourage a child *to* date!

 

The fact that I believe that does NOT mean I would allow illegals in my home (underage drinking, street drugs) or be permissive.