momma2owen29 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) i know this probably seems elementary to most of you, but we're struggling with the short o sound. any help on this topic would be much appreciated! a little background... we're using opgtr for phonics lessons with our kindergarten aged son and we're currently reviewing the short vowel sounds. up until this point, we've had no problems and the lessons have been quite easy. with the letter o, we started with cvc words such as and fox and mop. both of those were easy to sound out and made total sense, as we can easily hear the short o sound- ahhhhh (like you'd say at the dentist). however, the next lesson introduces words such as dog and log. my husband and i (and even our 5 year old son) are having troubles with this, as we hear an awww sound in dog, rather than ahhhh sound that we've been using. does that make sense? my son is actually sounding this word out (d-ahhh-g) by using the correct short o sound. But it sounds incorrect to us, as we pronounce it dawg. help please!!!!:confused: Edited August 22, 2012 by momma2owen29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLDebbie Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I'm not sure where you're located, but saying dawg for dog makes me think you live in the South. I do too and I have to work at saying some words like they should be pronounced and in the case of dog, you say o like olive. I have problems with get, and pronounce git all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravinlunachick Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 i know this probably seems elementary to most of you, but we're struggling with the short o sound. a little background... we're using opgtr for phonics lessons with our kindergarten aged son and we're currently reviewing the short vowel sounds. up until this point, we've had no problems and the lessons have been quite easy. with the letter o, we started with words such as ox and fox. both of those were easy to sound out and made total sense, as we can easily hear the short o sound- ahhhhh (like you'd say at the dentist). however, the next lesson introduces words such as dog and log. my husband and i (and even our 5 year old son) are having troubles with this, as we hear an awww sound in dog, rather than an ahhhh sound that we've been using. does that make sense? my son is actually sounding this word out incorrectly (d-ahhh-g), but using the correct short o sound. any help would be much appreciated! :) LOL, I'm guessing you're from the South? :D The bolded part gives you away. Just tell him that's how the Yankee publishers decided to spell it, but he can say it the RIGHT way, "dawg." Just kidding! :tongue_smilie: I've always just explained that people have different accents, and ours makes us say things like dawg and frawg and lawg, but that they are actually spelled with a short "o" sound. I don't say either pronunciation is right or wrong, fwiw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2owen29 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) nope, we're actually yankees! :) i think i'm explaining this all wrong. sorry! let me try again... we pronounce it dawg. and that's how we hear it... with an awww sound in the middle. but the spelling, with the correct short o sound, makes us pronounce it incorrectly... d-ahhh-g. make sense? Edited August 21, 2012 by momma2owen29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 No, dog and fox have the exact same sound in the middle, and I don't think it's the ah sound. Using the ah sound, fox would sound like fax, and map would sound like map. Fox, dog, and mop should use the aw sound, like in saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 As a native New Jersean, I teach my kids the "proper" phonics, and then tell them "but we don't really say it that way except for during school." Have fun when you get to walk, talk, and call! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamom Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) i know this probably seems elementary to most of you, but we're struggling with the short o sound. my son is actually sounding this word out incorrectly (d-ahhh-g) by using the correct short o sound. help please!!!!:confused: Yes, he is sounding it out correctly. We (and you) just don't say it that way. Let him sound it out the way he's doing and you respond with lots of cheering and reassure him that we just say it as "dawg". My experience has been very positive with that approach. If though I had a student wanting to give me an example short o word I won't let them use dog, log, frog, bog, etc. because of this issue. Did he have similar problems with an, can, fan? That one trips kids up, too. Edited August 21, 2012 by Mandamom adding info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama_Rana Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I think I know what you mean. We used Phonics Pathways. It has a page for the sound you're talking about, but it's much later in the book. It makes the distinction between the short o sound [which they mark as an o with the little curved line above it] and the aw sound like in caught, yawn, etc which they mark as an o with a little carrot [inverted v] over it. It's page 188 in the 9th edition. The example words are dog hog fog log clog smog frog lost boss cost off offer soft loft floss cross moss loss toss frost [ETA: I skipped this page because we don't really make that distinction in pronunciation.] When I was in grad school for ESOL/bilingual ed. I learned in my class on pronunciation that it's very "yankee" to make a difference between caught and cot. Many of us pronounce those two words the same. ;) I don't know what to tell you about how to TEACH it. I started using OPGTR before switching, and thought it was very thorough, so I'm surprised it doesn't cover this slightly different sound. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Perhaps it's because I'm Canadian, but I pronounce all those words, log, dog, mop, toss and so on, the same. A short o sound is always awww around here. I guess I never really thought about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I'm not sure why but it seems that if the g comes after it we change it to the "aw" sound. I see many are saying they say the word mop with that sound too which has me going :confused:. I say mop with and ahhh sound (like open up and say "AHH") in the middle not an aw sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 The 'ahhh' (wide open mouth) sound is the short o vowel sound - at least it is in my experience? And it is how we (here) say dog. And mop, fox, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 The 'ahhh' (wide open mouth) sound is the short o vowel sound - at least it is in my experience?And it is how we (here) say dog. And mop, fox, etc. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 You're all making me confused. :confused: My short "o" (Hot, dog, mop, fox, log, pot, chop, cot, lot, rot, plot, flock ..) doesn't sound anything like ah (which makes me think of the "a" in Father) or aw (which I hear in yawn, caught, saw). I hate discussing phonics via text. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 You're all making me confused. :confused: My short "o" (Hot, dog, mop, fox, log, pot, chop, cot, lot, rot, plot, flock ..) doesn't sound anything like ah (which makes me think of the "a" in Father) or aw (which I hear in yawn, caught, saw). I hate discussing phonics via text. :tongue_smilie: lol around here most kids have problems spelling father because they want to put an o in it. They sound the same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 lol around here most kids have problems spelling father because they want to put an o in it. They sound the same here. If I say father with a short o sound it starts to sound like fodder except for the th/dd thing ... do the vowels make the same sound there? OK .. perhaps "bother" is a better example ... does father rhyme with bother? Perhaps we should be actually recording what we're saying in these posts and post links to the audio/video. That would be such a pain but would clear up a lot of confusion. :tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2owen29 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 ... does father rhyme with bother? this is a brilliant way to look at it! in the midwest (where we're located), the word father would rhyme with bother. both of those words would actually make the short o sound. so to me, that sounds like ahhhhh. b-ahhhhh-th-er. f-ahhhh-th-er. i know it's really difficult to understand these sounds via text. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyNellen Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 All of those words (fox, mop, dog) sound exactly the same to me (raised in MA). If there is any difference, it is so slight that I don't even notice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 this is a brilliant way to look at it! in the midwest (where we're located), the word father would rhyme with bother. both of those words would actually make the short o sound. so to me, that sounds like ahhhhh. b-ahhhhh-th-er. f-ahhhh-th-er. i know it's really difficult to understand these sounds via text. :confused: Now I'm trying to figure out exactly which word it is that you are pronouncing completely wrong. :tongue_smilie::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 OK .. let me try this .. ah in "father" is the same sound I make at the end of "far" because I have difficulty forming the end r. So .. is the ah you are (there's that ar again) making in "father" the same sound as in ar without the r? Rereading that just makes me giggle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 If I say father with a short o sound it starts to sound like fodder except for the th/dd thing ... do the vowels make the same sound there? OK .. perhaps "bother" is a better example ... does father rhyme with bother? Perhaps we should be actually recording what we're saying in these posts and post links to the audio/video. That would be such a pain but would clear up a lot of confusion. :tongue_smilie: Yep, here father rhymes with bother. They are basically the same sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Perhaps we should be actually recording what we're saying in these posts and post links to the audio/video. That would be such a pain but would clear up a lot of confusion. :tongue_smilie: All right. Here's mine: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsbaby Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Wow. I am beyond confused. How else would you say father if not rhyming it with bother?!? And log, ox, box, dog? All the same aww sound. I'm from CA....that's always how I've heard it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2owen29 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 I think I know what you mean. We used Phonics Pathways. It has a page for the sound you're talking about, but it's much later in the book. It makes the distinction between the short o sound [which they mark as an o with the little curved line above it] and the aw sound like in caught, yawn, etc which they mark as an o with a little carrot [inverted v] over it. It's page 188 in the 9th edition. The example words are dog hog fog log clog smog frog lost boss cost off offer soft loft floss cross moss loss toss frost [ETA: I skipped this page because we don't really make that distinction in pronunciation.] When I was in grad school for ESOL/bilingual ed. I learned in my class on pronunciation that it's very "yankee" to make a difference between caught and cot. Many of us pronounce those two words the same. ;) THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! I'M OFF TO CHECK THIS OUT AT OUR LIBRARY!! :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I would try a video but .. I don't know how to make one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureMoms Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I was raised in upstate NY. For me, dog, fox, mop, father, and bother all have the same vowel sound. So does far. Father sounds like it should have an o in it. I cannot figure out how to say father without it rhyming with bother. I'm trying, and it's not working. And my 4yo thinks I'm nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2owen29 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Wow. I am beyond confused. How else would you say father if not rhyming it with bother?!? And log, ox, box, dog? All the same aww sound. I'm from CA....that's always how I've heard it. i know... so confusing! so sorry, everyone!! ;) with regards to the father/bother rhyme, i was simply attempting to demonstrate how i say a short o sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureMoms Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 All right. Here's mine: I would make a video, but mine would sound EXACTLY like Mergath's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureMoms Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Oh and father and fodder sound exactly the same except for the dd/th thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 If I say father with a short o sound it starts to sound like fodder except for the th/dd thing ... do the vowels make the same sound there? OK .. perhaps "bother" is a better example ... does father rhyme with bother? Perhaps we should be actually recording what we're saying in these posts and post links to the audio/video. That would be such a pain but would clear up a lot of confusion. :tongue_smilie: Yes, father rhymes with bother. :D All right. Here's mine: We say things the same! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2owen29 Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) All right. Here's mine: call me crazy, but i hear two different sounds when you say the words hot and dog! when you say hot, i hear h-ah-t. when you say dog, i hear d-aw-g. and that's exactly how my video would sound, as well. eta: maybe it would be easier to hear the difference by comparing these two words: hot and hog. my mouth actually makes a different shape for each word when saying the o sound. Edited August 21, 2012 by momma2owen29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 As a native New Jersean, I teach my kids the "proper" phonics, and then tell them "but we don't really say it that way except for during school." Have fun when you get to walk, talk, and call! ;) :iagree: I've spent my whole life in NJ. When we come across something that we pronounce differently, this is pretty much how I explain it. Yes, he is sounding it out correctly. We (and you) just don't say it that way. Let him sound it out the way he's doing and you respond with lots of cheering and reassure him that we just say it as "dawg". My experience has been very positive with that approach. If though I had a student wanting to give me an example short o word I won't let them use dog, log, frog, bog, etc. because of this issue. Did he have similar problems with an, can, fan? That one trips kids up, too. I pronounce log, frog, bog with an aaah sound (like say "aaah" at the dentist). I pronounce dog like dawg. I guess that makes me really strange. An, can and fan are all pronounced the same. I think I know what you mean. dog hog fog log clog smog frog lost boss cost off offer soft loft floss cross moss loss toss frost Dog, lost, boss, cost, off, offer, soft, loft, floss, cross, moss, loss, toss and frost have the aw sound when I say them. Hog, fog, log, clog, smog and frog have the short o sound. . does father rhyme with bother? Father does rhyme with bother when I say them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 call me crazy, but i hear two different sounds when you say the words hot and dog! when you say hot, i hear h-ah-t. when you say dog, i hear d-aw-g. and that's exactly how my video would sound, as well. eta: maybe it would be easier to hear the difference by comparing these two words: hot and hog. my mouth actually makes a different shape for each word when saying the o sound. No way! You've got to be making that up. :tongue_smilie: I've listened to the video three times now, and along with being sick of the sound of my own voice, I've determined that they all sound exactly the same. ETA: Okay, somebody else who clearly hears the difference has to make a video and show me this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 If anyone is familiar with the vowel song in SSL, they give the long sound of (Latin, classical pro.) A as ah and that is the ah that I hear in "father". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 The things I do while DH is out of town. :001_rolleyes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UiGFlwMKAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2owen29 Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 The things I do while DH is out of town. :001_rolleyes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UiGFlwMKAQ thank you!!! :) i can totally hear the aw sound in your short o cvc words. the way you said the ahh sound in father is the way we say the short o sound in almost all of our short o cvc words, such as box or ox. the exception to that (and what started this entire thread) is the short o cvc words that end in -og, such as dog and fog. those we say with the aw sound just like you. hope that makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 thank you!!! :) i can totally hear the aw sound in your short o cvc words. the way you said the ahh sound in father is the way we say the short o sound in almost all of our short o cvc words, such as box or ox. the exception to that (and what started this entire thread) is the short o cvc words that end in -og, such as dog and fog. those we say with the aw sound just like you. hope that makes sense! So .. we say dog the same but you say box and ox a little differently? When you type "aw" I think of the third sound I made when saying saw and caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 The things I do while DH is out of town. :001_rolleyes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UiGFlwMKAQ See, now in yours, I can hear the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 call me crazy, but i hear two different sounds when you say the words hot and dog! when you say hot, i hear h-ah-t. when you say dog, i hear d-aw-g. and that's exactly how my video would sound, as well. eta: maybe it would be easier to hear the difference by comparing these two words: hot and hog. my mouth actually makes a different shape for each word when saying the o sound. :iagree: You may not hear it, but when you say mop, it's an AHHH sound, when you say dog, it's an AW. Dog sounds like it has a "w" before the g. I say them just the same as you and I grew up in WI, but I can hear the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorrelZG Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 See, now in yours, I can hear the difference. Between the ox/box and the log/dog? I keep repeating hot and hog to myself and you know, I may hear a slightly longer "o" when followed by the "g". I tried it with dot and dog, too. Father has a completely different sound though and so does saw. :tongue_smilie: I do recall being mistaken for a Yankee once when ordering coffee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nukeswife Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 See, now in yours, I can hear the difference. My dh and I chuckled at this, because after watching both your videos you both say things the same, and hear it in each other but not yourselves. I guess it's kind of like how a person who wears a lot of perfume doesn't realize it, but it can knock the wind out of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 My dh and I chuckled at this, because after watching both your videos you both say things the same, and hear it in each other but not yourselves. I guess it's kind of like how a person who wears a lot of perfume doesn't realize it, but it can knock the wind out of others. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I'm no help. We say "heeiin" for Hen "Peeein" for pen and "Cayat" for cat. (we also say OWN for on) :lol::lol::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) I have spent a large amount of my day today actually trying to sound out my words with what you guys are saying is a short o sound and the other words with the aw sound and it finally clicked who I sound like. I sound just like my dh's aunt in Tennessee. During out visits down there is the only place I've ever actually heard the words pronounced like that. It all reminds me of me sitting in a sunday school class with the lady at the front saying that we won't have to take a 'teyest' after the lesson. I leaned over to my aunt and asked her what that was and she went 'you mean a teyest?" me, "yes, what is that?" aunt, "test". Edited August 22, 2012 by Dory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialClassical Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I haven't read the whole thread, but in our case I tell my daughter that she sounded it out right, "But in Michigan we say...". I never hear anyone say dog with a vowel that sounds like the one in fox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reign Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I haven't read the whole thread, but in our case I tell my daughter that she sounded it out right, "But in Michigan we say...". I never hear anyone say dog with a vowel that sounds like the one in fox. Yes! When I try to say dog like fox I sound very good will hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommie_Jen Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Good grief, you all! I am in bed saying dog and fox over and over. DH thinks I am nuts! (and for the record, the is very very little difference between the two in my pronunciation!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 This thread is cracking me up. I think father rhymes with bother and all those short o words have the same sound. I did hear some variation in both videos I watched, but they sounded strange to my Southern-trained ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2owen29 Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 So .. we say dog the same but you say box and ox a little differently? When you type "aw" I think of the third sound I made when saying saw and caught. yes, exactly! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2owen29 Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 thanks to everyone who chimed in today! and sorry to those who have spent their day occupied with the short o sound!! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 The things I do while DH is out of town. :001_rolleyes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UiGFlwMKAQ I hear it in your pronunciation, but I don't think there is a difference in mine. Good grief, you all! I am in bed saying dog and fox over and over. DH thinks I am nuts! (and for the record, the is very very little difference between the two in my pronunciation!) My dh is snoozing in the bed. He keeps sleepily asking, "did you say something?" Me? No.:tongue_smilie: I am from Oklahoma and we say a lot of things strangely. We say "ruf" for "roof." I have to make myself say "roof," every time. They changed the minor league baseball team in OKC from the 89ers to the Redhawks, and everyone hates it because it sounds the same as "redhots." I have lived a lot of places, and have adjusted my accent (plus, I was from the city to begin with ;)), but there is no difference for me in "bother" and "father." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts