Marylou Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 1) Christless Christianity 2) Moral Therapeutic Deism and 3) What Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoxcell Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 :ack2::rolleyes::bored::smash::banghead::leaving: That about covers it for me.:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I live in Houston(ish). I attended an evangelical seminary for my Master's degree with people who served in leadership at his church. I know for a FACT that Joel's church has helped, truly, sincerely, helped many hundreds of people. Since I don't care about doctrine, "false teachings", "wolves" or scripture, Joel is not a problem for me. He's not my thing, either; not motivationally or spiritually. But I see no need to dis those who have a positive take on him or the work his reputation allows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abigail4476 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 1) Christless Christianity 2) Moral Therapeutic Deism and 3) What :iagree: ...and John MacArthur is right on the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think he has helped many people (I agree with Joanne on that). But I still think he is a wolf and I consider his theology... dangerous. Jury's out on whether or not he knows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 THanks, dmmosher, for the link. I knew I didn't trust him but I have never read his books or listened to him for more than a minute or two. MacArthur's quotes from his books quickly showed why I shouldn't trust him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I generally avoided him because he's "fluffy" and I grew up with (and was very burned by) the "Word of Faith" movement. He seems to be somewhat WoF. Maybe not as intensely as what I grew up with. OTOH, it seems one could do worse than to listen to him at home on TV or read one of his books. I'm reading one of his books and, while I don't think it's a well-written, earth-shattering example of brilliance, I can't say I mind reading some positive thoughts. So - what do you think of Joel? There are worse people to listen to, in my view. Much worse. He's a little fluffy for sure, but at least he is smiling and encouraging. Half the Christian speakers out there look like being a Christian is the worst thing in the world. They do not represent me, that's for sure. I rarely watch Christian TV, but while we were without a church, we did a few times. I'm thinking of this one couple whose show was about a HAPPY marriage- and they never, ever smiled! Lord, deliver me from that kind of happy marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 :iagree: ...and John MacArthur is right on the money. I think John MacArthur is dangerous. While he, of course, has most of the basics down, his primary thing is that he's a fearmonger who spends all his time chastising others rather than getting anything of his own. Opinions. We all have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I live in Houston(ish). I attended an evangelical seminary for my Master's degree with people who served in leadership at his church. I know for a FACT that Joel's church has helped, truly, sincerely, helped many hundreds of people. Since I don't care about doctrine, "false teachings", "wolves" or scripture, Joel is not a problem for me. He's not my thing, either; not motivationally or spiritually. But I see no need to dis those who have a positive take on him or the work his reputation allows. Wow, Joanne - we agree! :D It happens! I DO care about doctrine and false teachings and he is not a problem for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think John MacArthur is dangerous. While he, of course, has most of the basics down, his primary thing is that he's a fearmonger who spends all his time chastising others rather than getting anything of his own. Opinions. We all have one. *falls faint on floor* I agree with Tranquil? Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I agree. I could tell some doozies of stories from Grace Church. Dh was going there when we met. I quickly told him that if we were going to date seriously, I would NOT be going to his church. He was welcome to come to mine or we could find a new one together. We ended up staying at our own churches until marriage and then we opted to find a new one we could both agree on. Dawn I think John MacArthur is dangerous. While he, of course, has most of the basics down, his primary thing is that he's a fearmonger who spends all his time chastising others rather than getting anything of his own. Opinions. We all have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think he is a great motivational speaker. Sometimes, when I'm beaten down by all of the sourpusses in my world, I NEED a little joy and hope. I wouldn;t get 100% of my spiritual nourishment from him... but I think he fills a need in many lives. Yes, this. Sometimes you just need to hear from someone who is happy. His Dad was a great guy and his Mom has an incredible faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 His teaching seems to be about making people feel good. But for good Bible teaching, there is much better out there! :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Agree with the others who said he teaches a fluffy prosperity gospel. I think he is a likeable guy and that he is sincere, but I believe he is sincerely deceived. I find the WoF movement to be a very dangerous false doctrine. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Yes, this. Sometimes you just need to hear from someone who is happy. His Dad was a great guy and his Mom has an incredible faith. My husband is native Texan, and lived and worked in Houston for 40 years. He was a Houston police officer before owning his own business. He speaks very highly of Joel's parents, especially his Dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 *falls faint on floor* I agree with Tranquil? Wow. Lol. Never thought it would happen, did you? The planets have aligned, the end times are here....:tongue_smilie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 My husband is native Texan, and lived and worked in Houston for 40 years. He was a Houston police officer before owning his own business. He speaks very highly of Joel's parents, especially his Dad. They were awesome. I think his Mom is still alive, but I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 :ack2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think John MacArthur is dangerous. While he, of course, has most of the basics down, his primary thing is that he's a fearmonger who spends all his time chastising others rather than getting anything of his own. Opinions. We all have one. Just thinking out loud here . . . the same could be said of John the Baptist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Just thinking out loud here . . . the same could be said of John the Baptist! :D True, but John the Baptist was not preaching this to those who were already believers. That's pretty much all MacArthur does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaBirdX7 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Prosperity gospel + tv evangelism + plastic looking face on billboards = not worth my time. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 He is a false teacher peddling a false gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think John MacArthur is dangerous. While he, of course, has most of the basics down, his primary thing is that he's a fearmonger who spends all his time chastising others rather than getting anything of his own. Opinions. We all have one. Totally agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Rick Warren doesn't pull a salary either, from what I hear. It seems like Rick Warren and Joel Osteen have many similarities. Rick warren may also be fluctuations, but I dont think they are theological very similar at all. Could you explain? ETA: FLUFFY, not FLUCTUATIONS Edited August 15, 2012 by momoflaw phone is an idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6wishes Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 :iagree: I prefer meat. My biggest problem with teachers like Osteen is that their teachings are useless to people who are suffering. I've had people tell me that if they obey God and do the right things and pray hard enough that their children won't get sick. What happens to their faith if their child does get sick or even die? Kids get cancer, kids go blind. It isn't because you didn't "claim" health for them or didn't believe hard enough. Christians all over the world are suffering. It certainly isn't because they aren't holy enough. :( And if this is my best life now, UGH! :lol: :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie~Phlox Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Total fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 :D True, but John the Baptist was not preaching this to those who were already believers. That's pretty much all MacArthur does. A true preacher believes that God alone knows who the believers are in his audience, and his job is to simply preach the Truth. The folks that were baptized by JtB were believers, otherwise they wouldn't have stepped forward to do the outward ritual which signified an inward reality (repentance and belief) :D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abigail4476 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) I think John MacArthur is dangerous. While he, of course, has most of the basics down, his primary thing is that he's a fearmonger who spends all his time chastising others rather than getting anything of his own. Opinions. We all have one. I agree with his assessment of Joel Osteen. I don't know enough about him or his teachings to have a more precise opinion. ;) I do think it's dangerous to spend a lot of time criticizing others, since Jesus said we would be judged the same way that we judge others. I believe it's equally dangerous to view God and scripture in the light of how it can make ME feel good, make me successful, make me wealthy, etc. It's a very self-centered point of view and I don't believe our spiritual experiences are meant to teach us to expect God to make our lives perfect. Edited August 14, 2012 by Abigail4476 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Okay, now I have to ask what is wrong with MacArthur? This is the first I've heard of people saying he is a false teacher. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abigail4476 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 An analysis of scripture doesn't show that God is terribly interested in creating perfect atmospheres and lives for us, at least not on this earth. His providence and benevolence aren't centered around what we want for ourselves, but rather centered around what He wants for us. I wonder how people who believe that having God's favor means health and wealth deal with it when they lose health or wealth? Do they think God has forsaken them? Do they think they did something to deserve illness or poverty? I don't agree with the idea that a relationship with God will lead to picket fence lives with always enough steak on the table and never an illness or sadness to face. That's essentially the idea that the WoF movement pushes. It's positive thinking with a religious twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athomemom Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Well, he's always good to hear if you need a pep talk. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abigail4476 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 A true preacher believes that God alone knows who the believers are in his audience, and his job is to simply preach the Truth. The folks that were baptized by JtB were believers, otherwise they wouldn't have stepped forward to do the outward ritual which signified an inward reality (repentance and belief) :D. A better comparison would be to Paul's writings in Galatians 1, this passage being written to believers: 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. ...pretty strong words. There's certainly room for rebuke, but I do believe it should be done cautiously and only when absolutely necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) I agree with his assessment of Joel Osteen. I don't know enough about him or his teachings to have a more precise opinion. ;) I do think it's dangerous to spend a lot of time criticizing others, since Jesus said we would be judged the same way that we judge others. I believe it's equally dangerous to view God and scripture in the light of how it can make ME feel good, make me successful, make me wealthy, etc. It's a very self-centered point of view and I don't believe our spiritual experiences are meant to teach us to expect God to make our lives perfect. I'm currently reading through Charlotte Mason's volume 6 and came across this quote: "Will religion guarantee me my private and personal happiness? To this on the whole I think we must answer No.....True religion will not do this for me because the final form of the religion that will do these things is idolatry, self-worship, with no intention beyond self." Love that quote. Definitely worth pondering! Is religion here to make us feel good and make life easier here on earth or is it the means by which we connect with an infinite, timeless God worthy of worship? Edited August 14, 2012 by Cricket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abigail4476 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I'm currently reading through Charlotte Mason's volume 6 and came across this quote: "Will religion guarantee me my private and personal happiness? To this on the whole I think we must answer No.....True religion will not do this for me because the final form of the religion that will do these things is idolatry, self-worship, with no intention beyond self." Love that quote. Ahhhhh. Very good quote. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I'm currently reading through Charlotte Mason's volume 6 and came across this quote: "Will religion guarantee me my private and personal happiness? To this on the whole I think we must answer No.....True religion will not do this for me because the final form of the religion that will do these things is idolatry, self-worship, with no intention beyond self." Love that quote. Definitely worth pondering! Is religion here to make us feel good and make life easier here on earth or is it the means by which we connect with an infinite, timeless God worthy of worship? Great quote! Something to ponder today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 So help me understand.... Does Joel say that if you believe in Jesus as your savior that nothing bad will happen and you will receive everything you pray for? I haven't listened to him enough to know. I HAVE heard him say something to the effect that God will help you through great difficulties. I'd assume there is more to his church and his teachings than what we see in 23 mins of TV, but I have no first hand experience. TBH, I stopped watching after he spent an entire show talking about eating healthy or some such fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 who is joel osteen? (and why should I care?) you asked about my first thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I generally avoided him because he's "fluffy" and I grew up with (and was very burned by) the "Word of Faith" movement. He seems to be somewhat WoF. Maybe not as intensely as what I grew up with. OTOH, it seems one could do worse than to listen to him at home on TV or read one of his books. I'm reading one of his books and, while I don't think it's a well-written, earth-shattering example of brilliance, I can't say I mind reading some positive thoughts. So - what do you think of Joel? (Other than that weird turning globe on his stage. What is up with that? It's just bizarre! :tongue_smilie:) Charlatan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I think he's great to listen to as a motivational speaker, but he's really light on actual Scripture. The things he preaches (what I've seen) seem biblical in theory, but it needs more meat on the bones. Hopefully they do provide more meat in their church than what's shown on TV (a distinct possibility.) Many of the other pastors on staff take a different approach. DH has listened to some of their sermons. (J.O. is hated in our church, and we wanted to find out the whole story for ourselves.) I will take a little different approach. I listened to him once talk about how he grew up in a hell fire and brimstone preacher household and all he heard was how God was out to get the sinner, beat the hell out you so to speak. He has gone too far the other way to show God's love, but I think he has a reason that he feels the way he does. I "get" that to a certain degree. My parents are quite Fundie in their thinking. His brother, who also works at the church, is a surgeon. He has worked with my Dad in Kenya and now takes almost yearly trips for months at a time to volunteer, for free, his skills as a surgeon. He is funded through his brother's church. His church may not be my cup of tea, but there are some good things coming out of his ministry. And BTW: He no longer draws a salary from his church, his money comes solely through his books and book sales. And yes, it is a LOT of money. Dawn :) He's not my cup of tea. Scripture isn't all sunshine and rainbows and I don't care for preaching or teaching that paints it in that light. On a more personal level, and I admit this is unfair, I don't trust people who smile constantly and are thoroughly pleasant all the time. I prefer authenticity. It feels like a facade. Never met him, but perhaps his smile and pleasantness truly is genuine? Some people really are like that. Grouchy people are no more "real" than happy people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xapis10 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 There is a ton of better stuff to read. So even if he isn't that bad, why spend the time? It seems like Rick Warren and Joel Osteen have many similarities. He is a false teacher peddling a false gospel. :iagree: Okay, now I have to ask what is wrong with MacArthur? This is the first I've heard of people saying he is a false teacher. :confused: Here is a fair amount of info on MacArthur. http://withchrist.org/MJS/index.htm It is certainly easier to respect him than Osteen, since he shares much Biblical truth, but unfortunately he gets muddy on the gospel (Lordship, etc). An analysis of scripture doesn't show that God is terribly interested in creating perfect atmospheres and lives for us, at least not on this earth. His providence and benevolence aren't centered around what we want for ourselves, but rather centered around what He wants for us. I wonder how people who believe that having God's favor means health and wealth deal with it when they lose health or wealth? Do they think God has forsaken them? Do they think they did something to deserve illness or poverty? I don't agree with the idea that a relationship with God will lead to picket fence lives with always enough steak on the table and never an illness or sadness to face. That's essentially the idea that the WoF movement pushes. It's positive thinking with a religious twist. This is why I don't know if we could say Osteen is helpful. His help is not permanent, so in the end it could be more harmful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie75 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Rick warren may also be fluctuations, but I dont think they are theological very similar at all. Could you explain? I'm not sure what you mean about Rick Warren. Comparing the reactions to Joel Osteen in this thread and the reactions to Rick Warren in the other thread, they seem very similar. They are both advocates of "fluffy" or "feel good Christianity." They have both been called "wolves." How are they not theologically similar? Edited August 14, 2012 by Carrie75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singingmom Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I'm not sure what you mean about Rick Warren. Comparing the reactions to Joel Osteen in this thread and the reactions to Rick Warren in the other thread, they seem very similar. They are both advocates of "fluffy" or "feel good Christianity." They have both been called "wolves." How are they not theologically similar? They are similar in that they both advocate a more "positive" approach to preaching/teaching. They are not very hard-line about sin issues, etc. In their main services. They are dis-similar in that RW is a Southern Baptist, and a pretty typical evangelical theologically. Osteen, on the other hand is a Charismatic who's background is very much intrenched in the Word of Faith movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I'm not sure what you mean about Rick Warren. Comparing the reactions to Joel Osteen in this thread and the reactions to Rick Warren in the other thread, they seem very similar. They are both advocates of "fluffy" or "feel good Christianity." They have both been called "wolves." How are they not theologically similar? Sorry, I just saw this. I have to go back & edit my post. I didn't mean FLUCTUATIONS, I meant FLUFFY. To answer your question, their theology is so drastically different, that you really can't compare them except that they could both be called fluffy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Okay, now I have to ask what is wrong with MacArthur? This is the first I've heard of people saying he is a false teacher. :confused: He is not a false teacher. He is a solid defender of truth. Truth always gets people riled up. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke Salad Annie Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 He is a false teacher peddling a false gospel. :iagree:And he creeps me out, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 He is not a false teacher. He is a solid defender of truth. Truth always gets people riled up. ;) I've never seen anyone riled-up against him. Do people get riled up about MacArthur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea_lpz Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I try to think of him as rarely as possible. He seems so phony and he gives me the creeps. :ack2: :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 He is not a false teacher. He is a solid defender of truth. Truth always gets people riled up. ;) :lol: I've heard his books recommended by people and know people who have attended his church and attended The Master's College. While he is dispensational, he seems pretty Reformed in all other areas. And that's just fine by me. And, according to Wikipedia, he's critical of Osteen. just to make it relevant to this thread. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 :lol: And, according to Wikipedia, he's critical of Osteen. just to make it relevant to this thread. :D You know we always like to stay on topic here :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 He is not a false teacher. He is a solid defender of truth. Truth always gets people riled up. ;) :iagree: (We're talking about MacArthur here, folks.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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