Talk me out of/into unschooling

[asmall]

I would like some help in deciding about switching to unschooling. My girls have never unschooled. We have used Oak Meadow, and added in some WWE, FLL, HOP, and we have tried TT and MM. My friend who homeschools switched over to unschooling her girls this year, and she has been telling me about their school year and some of the things they have learned. I am very interested in finding out more, it really sounds like her girls have learned a great deal. My kids have been enjoying school more more since we switched to Oak Meadow two years ago, but I'm torn about using it again, because of a bad experience we had with buying an older version. This year I have noticed my kids not as interested in school, and even heard the dreaded words "this is boring" and "not school" come out of my girls mouths. I want to put more joy back into our learning, and this seems like a good way to do this.

The other reason I was thinking of unschooling, was my husband told me if I could figure out a way to homeschool for less money I could quit my job. I work a 40 hour night shift every week, and I am always over tired, and sick a lot. If I quit my job the plan is to move from our current house, and move north where the land is much cheaper, and for us to have a small farm. (Which has always been a dream of mine.)

So if anyone wants to put in their two cents about unschooling I'm all ears.

Thanks,

AL

[Mama2Many4]

You really don't have to unschool for your homeschooling to be cheaper. I use lots of books that are free on Google Books. I could have an entirely free yet fulfilling school year if I wanted. You could too, so look into it. I know nothing about unschooling though, so I can't help with that. Just wanted to throw and idea out there.

[asmall]

I wanted to link to the article that my friend told me about. http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html

I think if we decided to unschool we would do something similar to this.

AL

[moonlight]

not really an unschooler here, but i would consider myself a relaxed homeschooler.

 

there is a lot of "school" you could do almost for free or near that especially if you have access to a library.

 

my feeling with unschooling is that for it work well, you would have to be able to follow rabbit trails and buy lots of supplies for projects and/or other resources. and you would need a lot of time. i totally buy into the theory behind it and would love to unschool, but i am too much of a control freak myself. i completely trust my children to learn, i don't trust myself to back off! :glare:

 

that being said, i know unschoolers in real life that do great with the internet, lots of educational tv shows, books, taking on opportunities that pop up, and living live in general...

 

i just do all that with some curriculum...

 

hope this helps,

seema

[freeindeed]

I am unschooling my youngest (special needs.) I am currently reading quite a lot about it, and I am intrigued by the thought of unschooling my older children--but have NOT made that leap yet. I highly recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Unschooling-Handbook-Childs-Classroom/dp/0761512764

I've also been reading a lot on Sandra Dodd's website. Here are a few other helpful sites:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

http://www.naturalchild.org/articles/learning.html

Edited May 6, 2012 by freeindeed

[heidirenata]

We would be labeled both eclectic and relaxed not totally unschoolers but we have many, many unschool days because we homeschool year round. I think you have to do what you are comfortable with. I guess my big question is how much do you spend homeschooling now? Is it really an entire incomes worth? I know we spend thousands every year but in that we include travel/field trips, music lessons, sports league, software, membership fees (local as well as HSLDA) fees etc etc. That is not on just books although I could easily guesstimate that we spend between 2 and 3 thousand annually on books alone. On the other hand I have friend that probably spend less than $100 annually to school multiple children, they are avid Internet and Library users. That's just not my style and like you I work so don't have the time for library runs multiple times per week or hours to spend on the Internet searching for free curriculum. Good for them though I think it's great if you can do it for cheap or free.

As for owning a farm...GO FOR IT!...LOL I am totally biased. We homestead and a mini-farm/ranch is my dream too, just can't because we both travel for work and it's nearly impossible to travel as much as we do and care for that many animals without also paying full time help.

[NotSoObvious]

Hmm. I'm not sure that I equate unschooling with spending less money. In fact, most unschooling families I know spend a lot more money on "school" than I do. Their kids have access to Brain Pop, Discovery Streaming, and have every science kit and math game known to man. They do amazing things with their kids, but they don't choose to unschool because it's cheap. :) Your kids are still going to need access to experiences and resources.

 

I think you should choose a method that works best for your family and your kids, then figure out how to do it on a budget. Homeschoolers of any leaning can use the library, free programs online (MEP, Scott Forseman, Khan Academy, etc), and community resources. It doesn't mean you don't have to have a curriculum or goals for the year.

[Crimson Wife]

This year I have noticed my kids not as interested in school, and even heard the dreaded words "this is boring" and "not school" come out of my girls mouths.

 

Sorry, but some things that are important *ARE* boring- that's just part of life. Scrubbing toilets, mopping floors, washing dishes, changing diapers, etc. are very tedious but they still need to be done. Learning to put up with dull tasks is a very important lesson children need to learn. I don't think "unschooling" is the solution to your dilemma, but rather a focus on habit-training and maintaining a good attitude.

[birchbark]

I think if you have good academic goals, you can successfully unschool everything except reading and writing. I can't believe I am saying this but, yes, even math (for elementary grades only - see my recent thread). I would suggest getting rid of any screens your DC might have, finding a LA program you like (maybe they'd like something Charlotte Masonish?) and try it. As far as schooling cheaply, you can do SO much with the internet and a library card. Quitting your job and moving to a dream farm sound like wonderful motivations!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Sorry, but some things that are important *ARE* boring- that's just part of life. Scrubbing toilets, mopping floors, washing dishes, changing diapers, etc. are very tedious but they still need to be done. Learning to put up with dull tasks is a very important lesson children need to learn. I don't think "unschooling" is the solution to your dilemma, but rather a focus on habit-training and maintaining a good attitude.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Many things in life are not exciting and somewhat boring.

[albeto]

Sorry, but some things that are important *ARE* boring- that's just part of life.

 

Unschooled kids learn this too. ;-)

 

I don't formally educate my kids in any way, but I'm thinking the money issue isn't really related. You can do it on the cheap or supplement with goodies, just like anything else.

 

The benefits to unschooling, imho, is the attitude shift from learning skills because one is expected to, to learning for the thrill of discovering something new and applying it in a novel way. Living life from the middle of things rather than reading about them from the periphery, that's what unschooling will offer.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Sorry, but some things that are important *ARE* boring- that's just part of life. Scrubbing toilets, mopping floors, washing dishes, changing diapers, etc. are very tedious but they still need to be done. Learning to put up with dull tasks is a very important lesson children need to learn. I don't think "unschooling" is the solution to your dilemma, but rather a focus on habit-training and maintaining a good attitude.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with the above.

 

I spent a lot of time researching all different degrees of un-schooling when I was tring to get one of my dc to stop fighting against anything schoolish. I discovered two things: it was going to be more expensive and WAY more work on my part since I was still going to have certain goals I wanted to be reached by certain times. Making sure she reached those goals without specific programs to guide us was going to be time intensive.

 

I've also discovered, over the course of trying to accommodate this dc, that I was doing her a disservice by always making everything fun, engaging and perfectly suited to her. There is something to be said for teaching your dc the value of persevering through a less than exciting or fun task. What kind of young adults are we producing if we teach them through example that something isn't worth doing unless it gives instant gratification in the way of fun or excitement. (i'm not saying this is true of just un-schoolers...I've seen classical homeschoolers like this too.) Those dc are going to have a hard time learning anything of substance in highschool and college.

 

Changing your educational philosophy simply due to finances probably won't work for you long term. if you truly believe in a classical education you will more than likely end up frustrated with un-schooling. I can think of dozens of ways to homeschool classically for very little to no money.

 

Of coarse if you are discovering that you're an un-schooler at heart, truly believe in the philosophy, can carry off the methods successfully, and it has nothing to do with trying to make everything fun and engaging, or to do with trying to save money then you should give it a try.

 

I hope you do find the perfect balance for your family!

Edited May 7, 2012 by 5LittleMonkeys

[momma2three]

I think unschooling can work if your child has a specific sort of driven personality, and the parents are willing to invest a lot of time and probably money into presenting a wide range of opportunities for the children to avail themselves of and in pursuing rabbit trails.

 

I would still do a formal math curriculum.

[Crimson Wife]

The benefits to unschooling, imho, is the attitude shift from learning skills because one is expected to, to learning for the thrill of discovering something new and applying it in a novel way.

 

And what happens when the child grows up and discovers that in life, he/she will often need to do tasks because he/she is expected to do them rather than them being novel or even inherently interesting? :rolleyes:

[Tracy]

I think you really need to know what your goals are, how your children learn, and how you teach.

 

My dh would be a great unschooling parent. He has this intense curiosity and willingness to try new things. I just am not that. I would have a hard time giving my children the support they need without some sort of plan.

 

I think certain personalities would do better with unschooling. The problem that I have with unschooling it is reasons that children will learn what they need to learn whenever they need to learn it. But the reality is that there is a limited amount of time to get an education, and there are certain things that take a lot of time and experience to learn. And there are some things where there is a particular window of time (age range) when they are best learned.

 

For example, my dd7 hated to write anything a year ago. She cried when I made her do her copywork. But I asked her to cooperate and promised her that by the end of the year, she would be able to write more of what she wanted to write. And it worked. She is now writing letters and writing in her journal and writing stories. If I had unschooled the subject of writing, I would still have a child who had very low stamina for writing who would not be attempting to write at all.

 

Again, you know your kids best. Are they go-getters who will plow through things even when it is hard? Or are they always going to avoid the hard things? Do they create challenges for themselves? My kids avoid the hard stuff at all costs. They completely lose it when they don't do things or know things perfectly the first time. At this age, I don't mind unschooling social studies and science. I could even be talked into unschooling math. But there is no way that I could unschool reading, writing and spelling in our circumstances.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I've never seriously considered unschooling, because neither Miss P or I have the personality to carry it off.

 

But here's how I've always thought about it: pretend learning is like eating. Do I let my kids eat anything they want, any time they want? Of course not, they'd eat junk food and no protein and be really unbalanced and unhealthy. They rely on me to give them what they need, whether they realize and appreciate it or not.

 

On the other hand, can I make a child eat something they don't want to? Of course not. All I can do is offer them healthy nutritious food, and keep junk food out of the house, and when they are hungry they will eat.

 

I think learning and teaching is kind of like this. If I let it be completely student directed I know they wouldn't get the balanced "diet" that they need, and might completely skip important "food groups." At the same time, I can't make them learn anything by force, just like I can't force feed them. I can present interesting information, in an appealing way, and trust that when they are hungry, they will eat.

 

(Sorry for all the mixed metaphors, but YKWIM, right?) :001_smile:

[albeto]

And what happens when the child grows up and discovers that in life, he/she will often need to do tasks because he/she is expected to do them rather than them being novel or even inherently interesting? :rolleyes:

 

Humans learn cause and effect from infancy. There's no reason to assume a child lacking a formal education would forget this at age 5 because they don't spend time sitting at a table doing specific mental exercises. These mental exercises (formal education subjects) can be acquired in natural ways, and as the child matures their learning becomes more intense, focused, mature. A child learns there are certain responsibilities that make life more effective and enjoyable naturally, just by watching and participating.

[albeto]

But here's how I've always thought about it: pretend learning is like eating. Do I let my kids eat anything they want, any time they want? Of course not, they'd eat junk food and no protein and be really unbalanced and unhealthy. They rely on me to give them what they need, whether they realize and appreciate it or not.

 

Like any other educational ideology, anyone considering unschooling would do well to take the time to learn about it. It's not simple. It's not "pretend learning" ;), it's not spoiling. It's time intensive and takes much effort on the parent's part. The first effort is to learn what it really is and what it isn't. Read a lot, ask a lot, wait a bit, try a little.

[woolybear]

I think unschooling can be wonderful for some families/or some members of some families. However, I think that unschooling must really resonate with *you*. I would not recommend switching to unschooling to save money or because your dc are bored. Perhaps unschooling is right for you, or perhaps your family just needs a change in curriculum. I think you need to read a lot about unschooling, hang our with unschoolers, maybe even give it a go over the summer. That way you can get an idea of what it might be like for your family. Again, first and foremost, I think you need to really believe in the philosophy/approach.

[Jpoy85]

We unschooled last year, it worked for us. It doesnt work for everyone. It is not just free time every day all day. Or at least I didnt have it that way.

[Mama2Many4]

Like any other educational ideology, anyone considering unschooling would do well to take the time to learn about it. It's not simple. It's not "pretend learning" ;), it's not spoiling. It's time intensive and takes much effort on the parent's part. The first effort is to learn what it really is and what it isn't. Read a lot, ask a lot, wait a bit, try a little.

 

She wasn't calling it "pretend learning" she was saying that PRETEND learning is LIKE eating.

[Pen]

I would like some help in deciding about switching to unschooling. My girls have never unschooled. We have used Oak Meadow, and added in some WWE, FLL, HOP, and we have tried TT and MM. My friend who homeschools switched over to unschooling her girls this year, and she has been telling me about their school year and some of the things they have learned. I am very interested in finding out more, it really sounds like her girls have learned a great deal. My kids have been enjoying school more more since we switched to Oak Meadow two years ago, but I'm torn about using it again, because of a bad experience we had with buying an older version. This year I have noticed my kids not as interested in school, and even heard the dreaded words "this is boring" and "not school" come out of my girls mouths. I want to put more joy back into our learning, and this seems like a good way to do this.

The other reason I was thinking of unschooling, was my husband told me if I could figure out a way to homeschool for less money I could quit my job. I work a 40 hour night shift every week, and I am always over tired, and sick a lot. If I quit my job the plan is to move from our current house, and move north where the land is much cheaper, and for us to have a small farm. (Which has always been a dream of mine.)

So if anyone wants to put in their two cents about unschooling I'm all ears.

Thanks,

AL

 

No opinion as to Unschooling or not...that depends on your children and you--it was not right for my son, but I think it works for some children very well. However, I want to suggest that if you are getting sick etc. you do what you can to stop work, more to the small farm, etc., before you become too sick and tired and stressed to do that.

 

Use libraries, second hand materials, things available on line (you can find Waldorfy, Oak Meadowish materials online for free if you want that), things that work for both children, etc. to help cut down costs--you can do this whether you are unschooling or not, and you can spend a fortune whether you are unschooling or not. The two are really separate issues, IMO.

 

Being on a small farm may also help $$$, since you may end up with less expenses for gas, work clothes, etc. right away, and less costly and better (esp if you go organic) food if you can grow some yourself within a year or two--which may in turn help your health. And whether or not you are unschooling being in a more rural area with garden etc. has built in much learning potential and interest, so that outside activities are often less needed. (I am living in such a situation. People we know in town are looking for camps to give their children time outdoors, for example. We just exit the house and there we are. Nature study and much science are also right here.)

 

Mini-Farming by Markham could be a helpful book for you for inspiration and getting started. It talks about doing mini-farming as a way to save money to be able to do things like homeschool. So ultimately it is possible that a mini-farm could replace your current work in a way that would fit your life needs better.

[Pen]

Like any other educational ideology, anyone considering unschooling would do well to take the time to learn about it. It's not simple. It's not "pretend learning" ;), it's not spoiling. It's time intensive and takes much effort on the parent's part. The first effort is to learn what it really is and what it isn't. Read a lot, ask a lot, wait a bit, try a little.

 

I think that the PP meant "let us pretend that learning is like eating" in order to make an analogy. I thought the analogy was a good one for OP to keep in mind. I also think the points you make are good ones for OP to keep in mind.

[deerforest]

I wholeheartedly agree with the above.

 

I spent a lot of time researching all different degrees of un-schooling when I was tring to get one of my dc to stop fighting against anything schoolish. I discovered two things: it was going to be more expensive and WAY more work on my part since I was still going to have certain goals I wanted to be reached by certain times. Making sure she reached those goals without specific programs to guide us was going to be time intensive.

 

I think that as long as you had certain goals, you weren't unschooling. Unschooling (to me) is really about letting all those goals free. Let the kids guide their learning, and you're there to support them. I'm not an unschooler so I'm not defending the concept, just sharing how I define it for my own sake.

 

My DH was a SAHD until about a year and a half ago. He was definitely unschooling DD, which was kinda weird because I had goals but it just didn't work for what he was good at. So, my goals just didn't go far because I didn't have a lot of time, but I did focus a bit on reading. To me, getting her to be a confident reader was an important step.

 

But, things shifted, jobs changed, and I'm now the primary homeschooling parent (though we both work full time now), and I have definite goals. Compared to most folks on this board, I look downright lazy, but I have expectations for some subjects, and we do a very bizarre and eclectic mix of "a bunch of other stuff". I own a lot of curricula and use it a lot, but on a given week or day I honestly have no idea what I'm going to pull out to focus on until I do.

 

DD and I do a max of 2-3 hours of school work a day together (it's more typically on the lower end of that), and that sometimes includes watching videos, playing education games, drawing, etc. She has the rest of the day (when not in other activities) to pretty much do whatever she wants.

 

I say all this because I still don't consider myself an unschooler. I think it's a mindset, not just something to do.

 

Many, many (most?) of our local homeschooling friends are unschoolers. I look ridiculously anal retentive in comparison. But, I don't think any one of them chose to be unschoolers because it would be the lowest cost option. It's something that just jives with their concept of parenting and is an extensive of that.

 

I agree with all the others who say that any type of homeschooling can cost as much or as little as you want it to. I certainly think your kids could have some amazing opportunities for unschooling and living on a farm! I'd suggest reading books about unschoolers, talking to unschoolers (other homeschooling forums have a much higher proportion of them than this board does), and seeing if it resonates with you as a lifestyle.

 

Good luck!

[Crimson Wife]

A child learns there are certain responsibilities that make life more effective and enjoyable naturally, just by watching and participating.

 

But not everything in life is enjoyable. Sometimes important tasks are tedious and/or difficult and/or seemingly pointless to the doer at the time. If the child does not learn to do disliked assigned tasks with a good attitude, they he/she is going to have a heck of a time trying to hold down a job as an adult. Even entrepreneurs don't have 100% control- they have to listen to investors, auditing firms, government regulators, etc.

 

I go through periods where our homeschooling is much more relaxed, but there are still ground rules. I might let my student pick what he/she wants to do for math, but skipping math entirely is not an option.

[momma2three]

But not everything in life is enjoyable. Sometimes important tasks are tedious and/or difficult and/or seemingly pointless to the doer at the time. If the child does not learn to do disliked assigned tasks with a good attitude, they he/she is going to have a heck of a time trying to hold down a job as an adult. Even entrepreneurs don't have 100% control- they have to listen to investors, auditing firms, government regulators, etc.

 

I go through periods where our homeschooling is much more relaxed, but there are still ground rules. I might let my student pick what he/she wants to do for math, but skipping math entirely is not an option.

 

:iagree:

 

And it's developmentally inappropriate to expect a young child to understand the sort of cause and effect that can have a huge affect on their adult life. Obviously letting a child decide whether they will learn math or science or how to write a structured paragraph will not lead them to a life of unemployable poverty... but it will close doors to what they're able to study and the careers open to them as an adult. I think you'll find that many brilliant scientists and mathematicians would not willingly have done elementary school math, for example... but getting past that level allowed them to explore the higher levels of their respective fields and discover something that they were really good at. And I'm sure there are famous authors who loathed grammar and analyzing literature: but found those an essential background when they grew up and realized their storytelling or research talents.

 

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I just don't think it's fair to put all the educational choices on a child who doesn't have the life experience or a developmental concept of delayed gratification or long term goals. That's why they're kids and we're adults, kwim? After the basics are taught, there should still be plenty of time and support for kids to explore their own interests.

 

That's my opinion of unschooling. But I admit that it's also colored by the time I spent on another message board with a big unschooling forum... and there was some pretty severe educational neglect over there. I'd like to think that most unschooling parents do more than, well, absolutely nothing.

[albeto]

But not everything in life is enjoyable. Sometimes important tasks are tedious and/or difficult and/or seemingly pointless to the doer at the time. If the child does not learn to do disliked assigned tasks with a good attitude, they he/she is going to have a heck of a time trying to hold down a job as an adult. Even entrepreneurs don't have 100% control- they have to listen to investors, auditing firms, government regulators, etc.

 

None of these learned skills require formal lessons to teach them. Think of the people you know who have "good attitudes." Did they all have the same educational experience? Did those you know with "bad attitudes" have a completely different educational experience? Or could it be that attitude is learned differently than learning the function of multiplication? I hope that makes sense. I'm simply trying to explain a misconception of unschooling, one that suggests children are spoiled and/or neglected. That's not the ideal, regardless of whether or not individuals spoil and/or neglect their children.

 

I go through periods where our homeschooling is much more relaxed, but there are still ground rules. I might let my student pick what he/she wants to do for math, but skipping math entirely is not an option.

 

Sure, that makes sense. I did too, until skipping math entirely was an optionm and one of my kids discovered he loves trigonometry the best and has been teaching himself. Another other loves geometry. Developmentally she's not quite at the place where it really clicks for her yet, but she's not intimidated by it. She sees its applications everywhere, and eventually she will have the vocabulary in place for what she is now noticing and experiencing, as is natural for the unschooled student. It's simply a different approach to meet the same goal, not avoid the goal altogether. :)

[albeto]

I think that the PP meant "let us pretend that learning is like eating" in order to make an analogy.

 

Oh that does make sense now! I think for some reason I had interpreted "pretend" to modify the kind of learning.

 

derp

 

I thought the analogy was a good one for OP to keep in mind. I also think the points you make are good ones for OP to keep in mind.

 

Gotcha, and thanks.

[Ellie]

Have you read John Holt's books? Those would be helpful in understanding what unschooling is and is not. :-)

 

We were unschoolers in our early years, and always remained relaxed. I don't know why unschooling would be expensive, because it certainly was not for us. My dds were Camp Fire members, did Scottish Highland dance and 4-H; the only one of those that could be considered expensive was Highland dance (costumes. Oy.)

 

But I think that you would need to understand that unschooling is almost a lifestyle, not another homeschooling method. It's the way you think about life in general as being a learning experience, and trusting your children to learn what is important to them.

[Tracy]

We were unschoolers in our early years, and always remained relaxed.

 

Ellie,

 

I don't want to highjack the OP's thread, but I wonder if you could share why you moved away from unschooling?

[Farrar]

But not everything in life is enjoyable. Sometimes important tasks are tedious and/or difficult and/or seemingly pointless to the doer at the time. If the child does not learn to do disliked assigned tasks with a good attitude, they he/she is going to have a heck of a time trying to hold down a job as an adult. Even entrepreneurs don't have 100% control- they have to listen to investors, auditing firms, government regulators, etc.

 

 

Actually, I don't do any tasks that I find pointless. If I do them, it's because I see the point. Some things one has to do in life are unpleasant - I don't love weeding the garden, doing laundry, paying taxes, making phone calls... - but I do those things because I see an ultimate purpose that will be beneficial to me - clean yard, clean clothes, staying out of jail, making money... It's understanding that connection that motivates me (and, I daresay, most people) and not some sense of doing what I'm told or what I'm supposed to do. That seems very in keeping with the goals of unschoolng to me.

[Hope in God]

Sorry, but some things that are important *ARE* boring- that's just part of life. Scrubbing toilets, mopping floors, washing dishes, changing diapers, etc. are very tedious but they still need to be done. Learning to put up with dull tasks is a very important lesson children need to learn. I don't think "unschooling" is the solution to your dilemma, but rather a focus on habit-training and maintaining a good attitude.

 

I don't unschool but I do resonate with parts of the philosophy. I read the Teenage Liberation Handbook and implemeted some of the ideas in the book and that is what pulled my oldest out of the dislike of school to now taking charge of her education.

 

From what I can see unschooling is a bit hard to pin down because everybody does it a little differently but I think the core of the philosophy is to make learning a life long journey and not just a box to check off at the end of the day. I think that unschoolers still perform dull tasks and some of those most likely include changing diapers, washing dishes and scrubbing tiolets. Life does have undesirable tasks but unschoolers believe that learning should not be one of those undesirable tasks. I worry sometimes that I am "teaching" my son to hate writing. I am inclined to give him a little more time to mature and somehow get him and his friends to mail letters to each other or perhaps let him have a garage sale and have him write the signs for the neighbourhood.

 

You could give unschooling a try, you may switch back after a year or you may love it. I would think that the experience (however long or short it may be) would enrich both you and your children.

[Veritaserum]

I read John Holt in my early days. We tried an unschooling type of philosophy for a few years and it was horrible for us. We thrive with structure and a plan of study. :)

[Iucounu]

In my experience, self-proclaimed unschoolers are all over the map. The more practical ones practice what I'd call relaxed homeschooling, or interest-led homeschooling. Radical unschooling is based on a happy fantasy that children will tend to turn themselves into well-rounded adults, instead of focusing on their major interests and neglecting areas of less interest (and/or neglecting areas where they experience more difficulty due to learning disabilities).

 

I think radical unschooling is a fine idea on paper, which many people try only to abandon it years later after it turns out not to work. Interest-led learning, with guidance from the teacher/parent, is a fine and practical idea.

[heidirenata]

:iagree:

I think in our family we practice a lot of unschooling BUT I never really use that term because it tends to be used to describe families that do no formal schooling whatsoever. I like relaxed homeschooling better because we certainly use some workbooks and textbooks too but mostly in an interest led capacity (except for math right now). My kids wouldn't have learned to read well without a phonics program but neither one of them would have learned well until they experience the desire to read on their own so it's a mix. I suppose a great many families unschool all summer long but don't call it that.

[Crimson Wife]

You could give unschooling a try, you may switch back after a year or you may love it. I would think that the experience (however long or short it may be) would enrich both you and your children.

 

The reason I'm stuck having my kids in a virtual charter (though one that allows me to pick my own curriculum) is because my DH flipped out during one of my more relaxed periods of HS (which coincided with a difficult 3rd trimester of a pregnancy and the birth of our 3rd child). If I decided to "unschool", he'd have the kids in our neighborhood PS so fast it would make my head spin.

 

My oldest has the personality where she could likely successfully "unschool" most subjects. She's the kind of kid who reads references books for fun. Math and penmanship/copywork, however, she would skip entirely if she could get away with it.

 

DS would play Legos all day if I didn't make him do schoolwork.

[asmall]

Wow! I wrote this post yesterday afternoon. Then got busy with life. I came back this morning and now have four pages of replies to mull over.:D

AL

[Farrar]

I agree. I hate housework of pretty much any kind. It's BORING. I'd rather do anything else. But I can certainly see the point in doing it. On the other hand, I don't see the point in scrubbing every crack and corner every day and keeping a perfectly spotless house. So I do not do that.

 

But to be fair, I don't think kids often understand the point of many things. That they are never asked to do things other than what they want to do seems like a bad idea. I haven't exactly experimented with that, but I have met radical homeschooling families and I'll admit their children were often miserable to be around.

 

I agree. I think life requires you to do things, not that are pointless, but that you don't want to do and that some (though not all) unschooling families create a false sense for their children that you never have to do things you find unpleasant or difficult and even discourage their kids from doing things that aren't fun as steps to a greater goal. My problem with that is that they're making an even more artificial environment for their kids than most b&m schools. But I don't think that's all unschoolers and from my own understanding, I'd say that's a misinterpretation of unschooling.

[laughing lioness]

I want to put more joy back into our learning, and this seems like a good way to do this.

The other reason I was thinking of unschooling, was my husband told me if I could figure out a way to homeschool for less money I could quit my job. AL

 

Unschooling is a term coined by John Holt to describe those who did NOT go to school-hence, "unschooling." The term now means whatever folks want it to mean. If you are really interested in the methodology of unschooling as it was originally intended I'd suggest reading Holt, Colfax's, Llewlleyn, and Farenga.

However, lots of parents I know personally SAY they are unschooling and extol the virtues of it (much like your friend) and talk about how much their kids are learning with little to no effort or exertion on their part. Here's the reality check. You don't get something for nothing. The people I know irl who unschool (in the traditional sense of the word) are incredibly intentional about their kids learning. The people that I know irl who claim to unschool and talk about how advanced their kids are just because they are inquisitive and "want to learn' are often justifying thier own lack of purpose, intentionality and laziness. Just being real, here.

 

If you are looking to put more JOY into learning, that's a whole different thing. What most people forget is that learning is often done on a bell curve. You have to climb UP a hill to get to the top of the bell where things are easier. You have to lay down a foundation. That being said, when things get rough around here and the kids fell buried we change thigns up: we use a LOT Of CD's in our homeschool. We use flashcards (VP hx cards are gorgeous) DVD's, on-line resources, and go to the library 2-3 x's a week, memorize stuff, do plays, etc.

 

We also make sure the kids are getting physical exercise and spend time talking together. My own experience in 22 yrs of homeschooling is that JOY is found when kids experience a sense of accomplishment and pride in their work. Last summer ds 17 memorized Macbeth from the Dover ed of Shakespeare's Macbeth for a public performance. He part required him to perform and have memorized sections for over an hour. He nailed it. He felt JOY in the accomplishment.

 

There are lots of ways to get homeschooling resources on the cheap. Set a budget that would allow you to stay home- sell stuff, trade, barter, go through netflix, the library, etc. You need to have a clear plan and budget for what you are doing. Frankly, I have found classical to be the LEAST expensive way to homeschool. There's not a ton of guessing, I have 2-3 suppliers I purchase all most of my curriculum from and much of what I own is not (or doesn't have to be) consumeable.

[Tanikit]

I think you need to know what your aims for homeschooling are before deciding what method to use.

 

My children are very young so if I start homeschooling them now (I have started but it would only become official next year) then for me what is important is to leave as many options open for them for their future - if they want to be doctors or plumbers or teachers or parents or performers or artists or even something I have never heard of before (or doesn't exist yet) I do not want that door closing in their face before we have even begun because of some decision I have made for them before they could even have a say in the matter.

 

So after that has been covered I must look at what will best suit me and them. In many ways most people do go eclectic in some form or another simply because what suits one family seldom suits another. So up til now we have been doing plenty of unschooling things and plenty of various other types of homeschooling philosophies. I agree with the others that unschooling will probably not save you a tremendous amount of money - you could probably save just as much doing any version of homeschooling you chose if you choose your materials carefully.

[pilesofbooks]

I think you kids would learn a lot from helping with a mini farm. My daughter would love such an experience :001_smile:. I think you could follow almost any homeschool philosophy for less $, but then it takes more time and creativity on your part.

[angela in ohio]

Unschooling is a term coined by John Holt to describe those who did NOT go to school-hence, "unschooling." The term now means whatever folks want it to mean. If you are really interested in the methodology of unschooling as it was originally intended I'd suggest reading Holt, Colfax's, Llewlleyn, and Farenga.

However, lots of parents I know personally SAY they are unschooling and extol the virtues of it (much like your friend) and talk about how much their kids are learning with little to no effort or exertion on their part. Here's the reality check. You don't get something for nothing. The people I know irl who unschool (in the traditional sense of the word) are incredibly intentional about their kids learning. The people that I know irl who claim to unschool and talk about how advanced their kids are just because they are inquisitive and "want to learn' are often justifying thier own lack of purpose, intentionality and laziness. Just being real, here.

 

If you are looking to put more JOY into learning, that's a whole different thing. What most people forget is that learning is often done on a bell curve. You have to climb UP a hill to get to the top of the bell where things are easier. You have to lay down a foundation. That being said, when things get rough around here and the kids fell buried we change thigns up: we use a LOT Of CD's in our homeschool. We use flashcards (VP hx cards are gorgeous) DVD's, on-line resources, and go to the library 2-3 x's a week, memorize stuff, do plays, etc.

 

We also make sure the kids are getting physical exercise and spend time talking together. My own experience in 22 yrs of homeschooling is that JOY is found when kids experience a sense of accomplishment and pride in their work. Last summer ds 17 memorized Macbeth from the Dover ed of Shakespeare's Macbeth for a public performance. He part required him to perform and have memorized sections for over an hour. He nailed it. He felt JOY in the accomplishment.

 

There are lots of ways to get homeschooling resources on the cheap. Set a budget that would allow you to stay home- sell stuff, trade, barter, go through netflix, the library, etc. You need to have a clear plan and budget for what you are doing. Frankly, I have found classical to be the LEAST expensive way to homeschool. There's not a ton of guessing, I have 2-3 suppliers I purchase all most of my curriculum from and much of what I own is not (or doesn't have to be) consumeable.

 

:iagree:

 

This is incredible wisdom. OP, thank your lucky stars that you got someone with this much experience and insight to give you advice! :D

[Greenmama2]

Actually, I don't do any tasks that I find pointless. If I do them, it's because I see the point. Some things one has to do in life are unpleasant - I don't love weeding the garden, doing laundry, paying taxes, making phone calls... - but I do those things because I see an ultimate purpose that will be beneficial to me - clean yard, clean clothes, staying out of jail, making money... It's understanding that connection that motivates me (and, I daresay, most people) and not some sense of doing what I'm told or what I'm supposed to do. That seems very in keeping with the goals of unschoolng to me.

 

Yes yes yes!

[Walking-Iris]

Here are my thoughts on homeschooling cheaper. You mentioned using Oak Meadow. That is going to be really expensive if you're buying the entire curriculum new. Used is pricey too most of the time. Also a lot of the books OM suggests can be found at the library or bought for quarters at Salvation Army stores, Goodwill, thrift shops, consignment, used library booksales, local homeschool groups have booksales, online forums etc.

 

Another way to homeschool cheaply is to try to find materials that multiple kids can use at the same time or you can save for a younger child. Except a few consumable workbooks, I like our curricula to be books that I can use again and again through the years. Which mean I have to like teaching from them. So lots of research.

 

There's also a million and 1 free stuff available online. Keep some money in your budget for printer ink. Also don't feel as though you have to buy ALL of the components of anything you use. Lots of things can be used without all of the extras.

 

About unschooling and Sandra Dodd in particular (whom I know personally from being active on a yahoo group for a few years---she can actually rationalize how watching marathons of Power Rangers was educational for her children). There's unschooling and then there's radical unschooling. A pp mentioned reading Farenga, Holt, Colfax and I would add Albert, AS Neil and Linda Dobson as well. There are relaxed/unschooling parents who do have goals, teach, and buy curricula. Those are the books you want to read and the unschoolers you want to seek out.

 

I laughed about the food analogy because I personally know radical unschoolers who bought a ton of pudding cups because their kids wanted them and let them eat them all day. I know of one who ran a bath for her 3 year old at 2 in the morning and let him eat strawberries in the bath even though she was pregnant and tired. I know one who let her child live with a cavity because she was scared of the dentist and didn't want to go. I eventually couldn't tolerate that group any longer when I was being cut down for asking what people thought of Story of the World or which math book they liked best.

 

Then again there were some wonderful parents living a joyful life learning together as a family. There's even an annual convention in Black Mountain, NC that I would love to attend sometime. But I suspect they were doing more than they would let on to the others or had better parenting skills. And that's the main issue I take with RU--at first you think you're interested in it because it's an alternative pedagogy and then suddenly you realize it's a parenting method as well that you may or may not agree with to some extent. Some people can make it work and it looks great, some it just looks like a complete mess.

 

Unschooling isn't a way to save money or find joy---there's a thousand ways to accomplish that, whichever route you take. I think you'll find that a majority of homeschoolers are relaxed/eclectic even on these boards. They may gravitate toward CM or WTM or Sonlight, but mostly the majority is doing a bit of this and that ---whatever works.

 

Go for the farm---it would be a great opportunity. :001_smile:

[...................]

Only in America, in this century or the last, could a woman like Sandra Dodd ever even exist to share her stories. There has never been another time when the getting of a living was so taken for granted, when comfort was so easy to come by, where concern over where one will get his next morsel of food and understanding to fight off oppressive powers, could produce someone with this type of parenting philosophy.

 

I would wager to guess that she and most radical unschoolers are all at least 3rd generation Americans. They have not had to suffer the extreme poverty that my friends from Haiti have experienced, or seen the opposite, which is my friends from Haiti who were medical doctors, and could escape that poverty only by the means of extreme measures from childhood on...of extreme sacrifice of parents and children to provide their child with a proper education and attendance to college. My educated Haitian friends tutor their children in mathematics after school every day. They seek Charter schools for pre-med or mathematics. They value formal education because they see what it means for their children. It literally means escape from poverty and generations of children who can have clean running water, electricity, clothes on their back and medical care themselves!

 

Formal education is the difference between the Protestant Reformation, or remaining in the Middle Ages indefinitely. Without Martin Luther's formal education, would he have been able to read the BIble for himself? Would he have been able to argue with Erasmus? Would he have been able to write the many books and letters?

 

Formal education is what made the writing of our constitution possible.

 

Now hear me: By "formal education" I do not necessarily mean institutionalized learning. Formal education can be accomplished at home, by oneself, by a tutor, by mother, in a school, and in many other means. But formal education means hard work and sacrifice, at some point and at some level, and usually means guiding children to get to the plateau where they have the tools to do whatever they are called to do.

 

Our own benefactor here, Susan Wise Bauer, had an extremely interesting life full of farming, travelling, racing horses, (or something to that effect)...read her blog. THis is a woman who really had a lot of fun, experienced life first-hand, and lived through her Latin studies to tell the tale. Formal education made her book, and therefore these forums, possible!

 

I am not advocating for an extreme. Early formal education does seem to have its detriments. Too much formal education to the detriment of play, exercise, and free time has its detriments. Formal education that does not fit the student can have detriments.

 

But to espouse a theory that all children should always choose what to learn, when to learn, and how to learn is, to me, just so obviously a product of the prosperous times we have been in.

[laughing lioness]

:iagree:

 

This is incredible wisdom. OP, thank your lucky stars that you got someone with this much experience and insight to give you advice! :D

 

 

Thank- you, Angela. If only I could spell :blushing:

 

Only in America, in this century or the last, could a woman like Sandra Dodd ever even exist to share her stories. There has never been another time when the getting of a living was so taken for granted, when comfort was so easy to come by, where concern over where one will get his next morsel of food and understanding to fight off oppressive powers, could produce someone with this type of parenting philosophy.

 

I would wager to guess that she and most radical unschoolers are all at least 3rd generation Americans. They have not had to suffer the extreme poverty that my friends from Haiti have experienced, or seen the opposite, which is my friends from Haiti who were medical doctors, and could escape that poverty only by the means of extreme measures from childhood on...of extreme sacrifice of parents and children to provide their child with a proper education and attendance to college. My educated Haitian friends tutor their children in mathematics after school every day. They seek Charter schools for pre-med or mathematics. They value formal education because they see what it means for their children. It literally means escape from poverty and generations of children who can have clean running water, electricity, clothes on their back and medical care themselves!

 

Formal education is the difference between the Protestant Reformation, or remaining in the Middle Ages indefinitely. Without Martin Luther's formal education, would he have been able to read the BIble for himself? Would he have been able to argue with Erasmus? Would he have been able to write the many books and letters?

 

Formal education is what made the writing of our constitution possible.

 

Now hear me: By "formal education" I do not necessarily mean institutionalized learning. Formal education can be accomplished at home, by oneself, by a tutor, by mother, in a school, and in many other means. But formal education means hard work and sacrifice, at some point and at some level, and usually means guiding children to get to the plateau where they have the tools to do whatever they are called to do.

 

Our own benefactor here, Susan Wise Bauer, had an extremely interesting life full of farming, travelling, racing horses, (or something to that effect)...read her blog. THis is a woman who really had a lot of fun, experienced life first-hand, and lived through her Latin studies to tell the tale. Formal education made her book, and therefore these forums, possible!

 

I am not advocating for an extreme. Early formal education does seem to have its detriments. Too much formal education to the detriment of play, exercise, and free time has its detriments. Formal education that does not fit the student can have detriments.

 

But to espouse a theory that all children should always choose what to learn, when to learn, and how to learn is, to me, just so obviously a product of the prosperous times we have been in.

:iagree:Beautifullly written. Getting everything you want does not equal joy, it equals entitlement.

[albeto]

In my experience, self-proclaimed unschoolers are all over the map. The more practical ones practice what I'd call relaxed homeschooling, or interest-led homeschooling. Radical unschooling is based on a happy fantasy that children will tend to turn themselves into well-rounded adults, instead of focusing on their major interests and neglecting areas of less interest (and/or neglecting areas where they experience more difficulty due to learning disabilities).

 

I think radical unschooling is a fine idea on paper, which many people try only to abandon it years later after it turns out not to work. Interest-led learning, with guidance from the teacher/parent, is a fine and practical idea.

 

"Radical unschooling" is simply taking the ideology of unschooling (that is, learning in a natural setting based on the child's development rather than through formal lessons based on the teacher's schedule) and applying it to all learning, not just academics. It isn't based on any fantasy but based on child development and pedagogy, surprisingly supported in neurology and psychology.

[albeto]

But to be fair, I don't think kids often understand the point of many things. That they are never asked to do things other than what they want to do seems like a bad idea. I haven't exactly experimented with that, but I have met radical homeschooling families and I'll admit their children were often miserable to be around.

 

I think it's a misnomer to say we do things we don't want to do. The fact is we want to do them for one of two reason. The behavior either brings us some kind of pleasure (clean stove is pleasant even if cleaning the stove isn't), or they reduce some kind of anxiety (the thought of ants or cockroaches might be enough to get someone scrubbing). Kids learn this too. It's actually innate to us as humans, it's part of the process of cognitive development. We can't not learn it (I'm referring to typical cognitive development).

 

Conventional school offers learning particular academic skills on a particular schedule. Unschoolers operate on the ideology that imposing these artificial schedules is unnecessary (if not the cause of more damage) with regard to learning this information. Artificially imposed schedules distract the child from observing and interacting with his/her environment. The natural "law" of cause and effect are compromised because the teacher is a stronger influence of effect than the natural world. Some things that brings a conventionally schooled child pleasure might be approval, good grades, earned privileges, etc. The thing a conventionally schooled child might learn is to avoid punishment, loss of privilege, feeling like a disappointment to someone they value, etc. It's the same concept as cleaning the kitchen stove. Unschooled children learn this kind of cause and effect as well but without the interference of an artificially imposed reward or punishment. They learn the pleasure of working hard on a project and succeeding. They learn the value of hard work, attention to detail, working well with others, identifying potential problems, how to respond to a failed solution. It starts with legos, because children learn through play. Like any other philosophy of education, the success of it is dependent on many factors at play, not just the philosophy itself, but the imposition of the philosophy, the particular development of the child, the environmental influence, etc, etc, etc.

 

Back to the OP - unschooling won't solve your money or happiness problem. It's like trying to apply more spice in the food for the problem of a dirty stove. The two are indirectly connected. I think you've got some good practical advice on how to address those problems. If you decide to unschool, I would read about it, get involved in a local unschooling community if you have one, or find experienced unschoolers to bounce questions off, because this is a slow process to transition to and you'll want to do so smoothly.

Edited May 7, 2012 by albeto

[Iucounu]

"Radical unschooling" is simply taking the ideology of unschooling (that is, learning in a natural setting based on the child's development rather than through formal lessons based on the teacher's schedule) and applying it to all learning, not just academics. It isn't based on any fantasy but based on child development and pedagogy, surprisingly supported in neurology and psychology.

I believe it is indeed based on fantasy. One can't just extrapolate from some ideas from neurology and psychology, form a teaching ideology, and call it well-supported without any actual proof that it works well. What's missing there is the actual teaching that works-- anyone can read scientific studies and form ideas. Where are the statistics to show that unschooling actually works? I see scads of failure stories, with the occasional success anecdote repeated as well, but no solid support. I don't think that all the people reporting failures here and elsewhere are lying.

 

The persistent reports of failures make perfect sense. True unschooling may work for a very occasional child, but not the vast majority.

[momma2three]

"Radical unschooling" is simply taking the ideology of unschooling (that is, learning in a natural setting based on the child's development rather than through formal lessons based on the teacher's schedule) and applying it to all learning, not just academics. It isn't based on any fantasy but based on child development and pedagogy, surprisingly supported in neurology and psychology.

 

Hmm, I think the idea that young children understand long term goals and intrinsically know what's best for themselves in every aspect of their lives actually goes against all research-based theories of child development. There are always individuals who are outliers who go against normal child development curves, so I don't want to say that radical unschooling always misses its mark though.