Teaching in a niqab (discuss)

[mommaduck]

 

I also don't think that it's a positive message for children that women cover themselves completely, including faces.

eh?

[NASDAQ]

eh?

 

I don't think it's a positive or respectful way to treat women -- to encourage them to dress that way. In fact, I think it devalues women. Women alone are cut off from facial communication with others. I don't think it's a coincidence that societies where niqab is common do not take an egalitarian view of women.

[duckabell]

ok well i think i might be the only niqab wearing woman on the boards here so i will try to answer as much as i can remember from what i read so far.

 

i wear niqab for religious reasons. i am american and i live in Canada now.

 

a woman would not need to wear a niqab if she was teaching a class under the age of puberty in class unless there were huge windows that couldn't be covered. i actually was in university studying bilingual education(spanish/eng) and i did my student teaching in a 1st grade class room they just had a small window that was covered and it was known that any male teacher would need to knock before entering. i then just threw it down over my face and done.

 

i can see perfectly fine in a huge group of people with no issues. i have never had a problem with people not being able to hear or understand me with my face covered the fabric is very thin so i don't really see how that could be an issue unless the person was very soft spoken. For people who have children who need to read faces yes this could possibly be an issue but i honestly don't know anyone who wears niqab(most of my friends do and even some of their high school age daughters do) that teach in public schools. mostly it would be temporary for student teaching purposes.

 

i do not think i am invisible nor do i try to be if you live near me i can be seen everywhere. am i hot in the summer yes i am, but sometime you have to sacrifice to please God and for me its worth a little bit of discomfort. anyone else with questions or if i missed something feel free to ask

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. I have had a couple of Muslim friends (both have moved) but I have never known anyone who wore a niqab.

[catz]

I don't think it's a positive or respectful way to treat women -- to encourage them to dress that way. In fact, I think it devalues women. Women alone are cut off from facial communication with others. I don't think it's a coincidence that societies where niqab is common do not take an egalitarian view of women.

 

I think this is a reasonable belief and one that I follow. However, I don't think that needs to be everyone's belief. I would have no problem with a teacher wearing one. I can definitely see the point about kids with hearing issues needing to see faces to read lips and I'd hope they'd place kids in classrooms accordingly.

 

I live in an urban area and see women wearing them all the time, and I wouldn't be surprised to see this in our local schools either (some girls head cover at PS where DS started school).

[phathui5]

No, it wouldn't bother me.

[mommaduck]

I don't think it's a positive or respectful way to treat women -- to encourage them to dress that way. In fact, I think it devalues women. Women alone are cut off from facial communication with others. I don't think it's a coincidence that societies where niqab is common do not take an egalitarian view of women.

You said "especially the face", which led me to understand that you against women covering themselves in any other manner (headcovering, longer skirts, etc, for any reason). It was the other manners that I was more "eh?" about than the face (I understand both sides with the face).

 

My concern would be that a person in a teaching position, especially with children, not having their face where a child could see it, connect to the person in that manner, and read cues from a person's face. If a person has a problem with the opposite gender (full grown) seeing their face, that is one thing...a child is another. It's like with the mixed swimming issue. Some pools will close to women and girls, but boys under six are included with their mothers as well.

[Negin]

I don't think it's a positive or respectful way to treat women -- to encourage them to dress that way. In fact, I think it devalues women. Women alone are cut off from facial communication with others. I don't think it's a coincidence that societies where niqab is common do not take an egalitarian view of women.

:iagree: and my country of birth (Iran) although they don't wear niqabs ... well, let's just say that I'm truly very grateful to not live there. The last time I visited there was in '80 when the wonderful Ayatollah was really taking over and I am forever grateful to my parents for having gotten us out. I'm all for religious freedom and such, but I know that those very same societies do not. They don't tolerate Baha'is, Jews, etc. It's their way or the highway. :glare: Iran used to be a wonderful country and has a rich history and culture, but I'm quite certain that we won't ever go back.

ETA: And, may I add, I agree with France and Belgium, or maybe it was the Netherlands, but I think it was Belgium who do not allow for this.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Negin in Grenada

[NASDAQ]

You said "especially the face", which led me to understand that you against women covering themselves in any other manner (headcovering, longer skirts, etc, for any reason). It was the other manners that I was more "eh?" about than the face (I understand both sides with the face).

 

 

I said "cover themselves completely, including the face."

[mommaduck]

I said "cover themselves completely, including the face."

My apologies. It just seemed the "including the face" was tack on as an "especially" case. Sorry for the misunderstanding :)

[SonshineLearner]

I don't think it's a positive or respectful way to treat women -- to encourage them to dress that way. In fact, I think it devalues women. Women alone are cut off from facial communication with others. I don't think it's a coincidence that societies where niqab is common do not take an egalitarian view of women.

I agree with this, and I wouldn't have my child in the class. :(

[sahm99]

ETA: And, may I add, I agree with France and Belgium, or maybe it was the Netherlands, but I think it was Belgium who do not allow for this.

 

In France women are not allowed to walk on the street wearing a niqab, let alone in a classroom...

In most parts of Germany, women wearing a hijab cannot be teachers in public schools...

 

The reasoning by German courts was that the hijab is not only a religious symbol, but a cultural symbol as well, that is meant to underline differences from local cultural norms...

The French are arguing with the display of religious symbols (as far as schools are concerned) and are questioning the freedom of choice of the concerned women...

[*Lulu*]

In my area we do not frequently see women in hijab, and almost never in niqab. That being said a few years ago we had a lovely woman that was part of our homeschool group who wore niqab. In the time that she was living here I never once saw her have any difficulty in communicating with children or mothers.

 

I would have no more difficulty putting my child into a class with a niqab wearing teacher than I would putting them in a class with any other teacher.

Edited April 18, 2012 by BLA5
ugh! IPAD auto correct!

[QuirkyKidAcademy]

Since I rely on lip-reading for successful communication, it would throw me for a loop. That's based on what *I* need as a hearing-impaired person, not for religious reasons. Other than that, not a problem.

[Amirah]

I don't think it's a positive or respectful way to treat women -- to encourage them to dress that way. In fact, I think it devalues women. Women alone are cut off from facial communication with others. I don't think it's a coincidence that societies where niqab is common do not take an egalitarian view of women.

 

i am sorry that you personally feel that.i don't feel of lesser value to anyone with my face covered nor do i feel as if i am respected less. i do agree that not all countries(muslim or non muslim) have a high standard of women. i don't think it is a positive view for women to be running around showing off everything or wearing bikinis either. i also do not think countries where prostitution is legal is great for women either,but we all have our standards and values. i don't cover my face when i am talking to other women so i am ok. as far as me having facial communication i do not need it when i am around other men nor do i want it. to each its own though.:001_smile:

[Jennifer3141]

I don't think it's a positive or respectful way to treat women -- to encourage them to dress that way. In fact, I think it devalues women. Women alone are cut off from facial communication with others. I don't think it's a coincidence that societies where niqab is common do not take an egalitarian view of women.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

And as a feminist, no I would not allow my children to take classes from a culture that perpetuates this.

 

Hijab, yes. Although I would have to be willing to accept a lot of questioning from my atheist, skeptical kids so I'd think about it first. But a niqab is an automatic NO for us.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Jennifer3141

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Yes, it would bother me. I, personally, would like to see the facial expressions of anyone with whom I had to carry on conversations on a daily basis. I also believe that people should have the right to express their religion in whatever manner they chose, as long as it does not harm others. I think in this situation, it's not exactly harming anyone, but I can't see how it would be beneficial to the children involved not to see their teacher's face. I, personally, would have no problem with a teacher in hijab, but I do think that if my kid's teacher's face was covered, I'd be a little bothered by it at a public school. It would be different if I were sending my kid to a religiously based school.

[KnitWit]

Thank you Amirah, Negin and Frugal Mama for sharing in this thread. I really appreciate hearing from you all.

[Amirah]

Thank you Amirah, Negin and Frugal Mama for sharing in this thread. I really appreciate hearing from you all.

 

not a problem at all! i don't mind answering questions for anyone who asks.it helps get rid of stereotypes. we can't learn about others unless we do.:001_smile:

[frugalmama]

i am sorry that you personally feel that.i don't feel of lesser value to anyone with my face covered nor do i feel as if i am respected less. i do agree that not all countries(muslim or non muslim) have a high standard of women. i don't think it is a positive view for women to be running around showing off everything or wearing bikinis either. i also do not think countries where prostitution is legal is great for women either,but we all have our standards and values. i don't cover my face when i am talking to other women so i am ok. as far as me having facial communication i do not need it when i am around other men nor do i want it. to each its own though.:001_smile:

 

:iagree:

[AK_Mom4]

It would not bother me a bit.

[Susan in KY]

Certainly, if I had a student hard of hearing who needed to read lips it would give me pause. I think even without that situation I would want to be able to see the teacher's face. Maybe it's a cultural thing on my part.

[NASDAQ]

I'm not aware of any public schools that allow teachers to teach in bikinis.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Yes, it would bother me. I have hearing problems and covering the face makes it hard to understand. I also dislike these coverings because I think it sends the wrong message- men are uncontrollable animals and so woman have to be totally covered up so men don't attack. I think it actually diminishes both sexes.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:I dislike them as well and I am concerned that many Muslim women may feel compelled to cover their faces even in America:(

[hana]

Yes, it would bother me, but a hijab would not. I don't think such an extreme covering is appropriate in a public school. I don't think that makes me anti-Muslim or anti-religion.

 

I also find the idea of covering women's mouths to be disturbing, but I suppose that's a separate issue.

 

:iagree: with all of this.

[Little Nyssa]

I would not be comfortable with it, but I think I could become comfortable with it if I knew the teacher.

I'm pretty sure that the school system would have thought hard about this already, since there is bound to be criticism.

The problem I have with it, is that niqab is a sign of ardent religious faith, and I would wonder how much of an agenda this person might have for teaching the children in a biased way. I don't think I am being anti- her particular religion here, because I would have the same concern if a teacher wore a huge cross, or were a monastic of any kind, or wore a yarmulke, or a crown of holly leaves.

 

It is a sign of very strong faith, and I respect that, but I believe that the public schools ought not to be a place of proselytizing by teachers. And, I'm saying that as a Christian with a pretty ardent faith too!

 

So,if I had a chance to speak with the teacher, and get to know her, and I believed that she did not have an agenda, I think I could become comfortable with it.

 

As a PP said, I would far rather we all wear niqab than bikinis. :001_smile:

[Amirah]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:I dislike them as well and I am concerned that many Muslim women may feel compelled to cover their faces even in America:(

 

i feel like this if i am in a free country where i have the right to freedom of religion i have every right to dress in with my face covered if i feel like it. i am born and raised American. my father fought in the military and got injured fighting for our country. i am concerned that people(not necessarily you i am speaking in general) feel like certain rights should not be given to certain people because its not what they agree with

[bettyandbob]

I'm not aware of any public schools that allow teachers to teach in bikinis.

 

 

I have seen teachers in tight clothing and low cut tops revealing extensive cleavage.

[NASDAQ]

i feel like this if i am in a free country where i have the right to freedom of religion i have every right to dress in with my face covered if i feel like it. i am born and raised American. my father fought in the military and got injured fighting for our country. i am concerned that people(not necessarily you i am speaking in general) feel like certain rights should not be given to certain people because its not what they agree with

 

You are not entitled to social approval for your every action, even if you have the right to do them. Other people may still find your decisions disturbing.

[Lucy the Valiant]

(I'm a little hesitant to share, but . . . )

 

It would bother me because I see it as a male-imposed restriction on women that I would not want my daughter to accept as okay.

 

(I do understand that women wear them voluntarily, and that they are not all religiously-affiliated, but it would still bother me. Just trying to be honest.)

[prairiebird]

The only thing that bothers me is that I have hearing loss and rely on lip reading for piecing together words. Wearing a hijab is way more common around here though. I don't really care, but I've grown up around it, so it's not different to me. Most of my friends growing up would wear a hijab and their moms or older sisters might be in a fuller coverage. They still seem to mostly wear that, but I've noticed the generation younger than us seems to be choosing the nigab instead.

 

ETA: and I do want to emphasize 'choosing' there. None of my friends ever complained of being forced to wear any of this. Most of the complaining was about materials, quality etc.

Edited April 18, 2012 by prairiebird

[bettyandbob]

This would not bother me a bit. I live in Northern Virginia. I've seen many women in public like this.

 

I think the issues for children with hearing impairments or communication disorders are a reasonable concern.

 

As for needing to wear it while teaching children in early elementary, the elementary schools in my area are fairly large and include male as well as female faculty and staff. Perhaps blocking the windows and requiring a knock would solve this issue.

[Haiku]

Perhaps blocking the windows

 

I honestly don't think a roomful of school children should have to sit in a room with blocked windows to accommodate the religious beliefs of one person.

 

Tara

[Jennifer3141]

(I'm a little hesitant to share, but . . . )

 

It would bother me because I see it as a male-imposed restriction on women that I would not want my daughter to accept as okay.

 

(I do understand that women wear them voluntarily, and that they are not all religiously-affiliated, but it would still bother me. Just trying to be honest.)

 

 

Katie, you don't need to be hesitant to share!! You are not alone in your feelings. :)

[Amirah]

(I'm a little hesitant to share, but . . . )

 

It would bother me because I see it as a male-imposed restriction on women that I would not want my daughter to accept as okay.

 

(I do understand that women wear them voluntarily, and that they are not all religiously-affiliated, but it would still bother me. Just trying to be honest.)

 

I don't think you should be hesitant to share. I don't agree with you but I think everyone should be able to give their opinion.

[Rosie_0801]

Nah, it wouldn't bother me, unless her voice was being too muffled by the fabric. She must have to speak a bit loudly and clearly for it to come through well.

 

It wouldn't bother me unless my kiddo was hard of hearing or deaf. Not that a niqab wearing teacher would be hired by a deaf school.

 

I don't know why we must make assumptions about how oppressed the woman is. If she's teaching in a public school, her menfolk have to have been ok with her going to university. And while we're on the subject of tertiary studies, I've seen plenty of parents on here say exactly what majors they are and aren't willing to allow. Since feminism is supposed to be about choice, I might just wonder if she's a feminist herself. For all we know, in her bold, niqab wearing way, she's more of a feminist than the nice Christian lady teaching in the room next door. I've read of many Christian mammas here who refuse to identify as feminists.

 

Rosie

Edited April 18, 2012 by Rosie_0801

[Negin]

In France women are not allowed to walk on the street wearing a niqab, let alone in a classroom...

In most parts of Germany, women wearing a hijab cannot be teachers in public schools...

Thank you for clarifying. :)

 

i don't think it is a positive view for women to be running around showing off everything or wearing bikinis either.

Here in the tropics/Caribbean, bikinis and swimsuits are fine and accepted, but mainly in a beach/pool setting, particularly in the English-speaking Caribbean islands where the culture tends to be more conservative in these respects. Few run around showing them off. Yes, they may do so on the beach/pool, but that's okay here and accepted. OTOH, they are very seldom seen wearing a bikini in the street, bank, office, classroom, or church. :lol: That would be a no-no.

Cultural norms come into play. Out of respect and basic common sense, if I were to visit a Muslim country, I would dress in the way that is expected of me there. Although, in all truthfulness, I would have little to no choice in the matter anyway ;). As a woman, you really have to dress in the way that they deem fit.

 

i also do not think countries where prostitution is legal is great for women either

I agree. But don't think for a moment that the fact that it's legal or illegal changes much. Prostitution is everywhere and there's no getting around it. Internet online p@rn also. In fact, the Muslim clergy in Iran are very big users of it. The Red States in the U.S. (Utah being #1) are the heaviest users of online p@rn also. I have read time and time again, that where there's a conference going on for Christian pastors, hotel workers have an ongoing joke at the huge increase in p@rn usage by the guests (in this case, pastors). The more something is forbidden, the more it's often desired. One extreme so often leads to another.

I spent a total of six years of my life in Iran. I have never encountered as much perversion and bad treatment of women there as I have in all the other places I've lived in. Whether it's women being groped at by complete strangers or whether an 11-year-old girl is at a bookstore - children's section, mind you - and the employee there drops his pants down and starts masturb@ting in front of you ... I could go on and on. :glare:

A ten-year-old girl was in the female section of the beach with her mother. She ran to the male section of the beach to tell her dad something. She was beaten to death - b/c of having gone to the wrong section AND b/c of not being properly covered up. :glare:

 

as far as me having facial communication i do not need it when i am around other men nor do i want it

I can't understand why. What's the worse that could happen? :confused:

I can't imagine not wishing to have facial communication with half the world's population.

In all fairness, why don't men cover themselves up also?

 

And as a feminist, no I would not allow my children to take classes from a culture that perpetuates this.

:iagree:

Me neither.

 

Thank you Amirah, Negin and Frugal Mama for sharing in this thread. I really appreciate hearing from you all.

:grouphug:

Thank you for your very kind words.

 

I'm not aware of any public schools that allow teachers to teach in bikinis.

Me neither.

[Rosie_0801]

Dh would not like it at all. He's hard of hearing, but would make do if she answered her emails. He prefers to email than talk to people anyway. :tongue_smilie: However niqab's make him uncomfortable, as though he's being accused of being a baddie for something that was "an act of God," so to speak.

 

Rosie

[bettyandbob]

I honestly don't think a roomful of school children should have to sit in a room with blocked windows to accommodate the religious beliefs of one person.

 

Tara

 

Sorry I wasn't clear I was thinking of internal windows to the hall I've seen in some schools . External window issues could easily be resolved by giving her an upper level classroom.

[Negin]

However niqab's make him uncomfortable, as though he's being accused of being a baddie for something

:iagree:

I think that most men that I know would feel the same way, as if they're being boxed in or accused of something unnecessarily and unfairly.

[Kate in Arabia]

I have a lot of friends who wear niqab, as well as some of my inlaws, I do not. One of my friends was a French instructor at a university in the US, she wore her niqab outside the classroom, but within the class she removed it -- in her words, because of the necessity of seeing the mouth/face for learning correct pronunciation. This was a mixed-gender class of adults.

 

Most niqabis I know either would be fine with removing it inside the classroom, or teach in environments where they feel comfortable removing it anyway (younger kids, or at a girls' school). I don't know that I've personally come across a niqabi teaching in a classroom with her niqab on.

[Free]

I spent a total of six years of my life in Iran. I have never encountered as much perversion and bad treatment of women there as I have in all the other places I've lived in. Whether it's women being groped at by complete strangers or whether an 11-year-old girl is at a bookstore - children's section, mind you - and the employee there drops his pants down and starts masturb@ting in front of you ... I could go on and on.

 

Having lived in several cities in India, I can agree with this. The more repressed the general culture of the city is, the more unsafe it is for women.

 

Regarding niqab, here in India, it is pretty common for Muslim women to wear the niqab outside the home, but once the woman reaches the workplace the general practice is to remove it. I have not come across anybody continuing to wear a niqab during working hours.

[Rosie_0801]

:iagree:

I think that most men that I know would feel the same way, as if they're being boxed in or accused of something unnecessarily and unfairly.

 

Which doesn't translate to my dh thinking a woman shouldn't be allowed to wear one. Nobody can be pleased all the time, can they?

 

Rosie

[Kate in Arabia]

I don't know why we must make assumptions about how oppressed the woman is. If she's teaching in a public school, her menfolk have to have been ok with her going to university.

Quite a number of women I know in the US who wear niqab do so in direct defiance of their husbands' wishes, they would rather their wives not wear it. So I wouldn't make any assumptions on that score either.

[bettyandbob]

Honestly, I think most kids would take this in stride. During the years I had my own children in public elementary (oldest ds 1yr, dd 1 yr, youngest ds every year sp ed/reg ed combo) , each child has encountered teachers and staff wearing traditional clothing from other cultures and each child has witnessed mothers in the school building wearing a niqab.

 

I believe most children will have a negative reaction only if the adults around him have a problem.

 

I do not know a lot about communication disorders, so my comments do not apply to that situation. I do know that most schools I have been associated (as a teacher, sp ed advocate, and parent ) administrators try to match children with special needs with certain teachers. IME this is particularly true for child who hasn't been labeled, but the school knows "something" is up. A child who is labeled and still in a reg ed class will often have supports, like an aid to make that possible.

[hana]

Quite a number of women I know in the US who wear niqab do so in direct defiance of their husbands' wishes, they would rather their wives not wear it. So I wouldn't make any assumptions on that score either.

 

My thought on this is that I can't help but see it as gender oppression, since it is specifically connected to being viewed by men (right?), even if one's own family, friends, etc. doesn't care whether one wears it.

[SonshineLearner]

....... i don't think it is a positive view for women to be running around showing off everything or wearing bikinis either. i also do not think countries where prostitution is legal is great for women either,but we all have our standards and values. i don't cover my face when i am talking to other women so i am ok. as far as me having facial communication i do not need it when i am around other men nor do i want it. to each its own though.:001_smile:

But, I would not send my child to school with someone teaching in a bikini. So, in other words, someone who wears something that I don't agree with in their personal, private life... who comes in clothing I can agree with to teach at school... is probably someone I could allow to teach my child.

[kroe1]

This would most definitely bother me if the child was younger. My child cannot learn correct pronunciation or social skills from a piece of fabric. Facial expression helps the child learn behavior as well.

 

And, then, of course, I would not want my child's young brain being influenced by religious symbolism of any type that wasn't my own. That's why I chose to send my kiddo to a school that taught our religion before homeschooling. I did not want the outside influence enabled by a public education, and was lucky enough that I could afford the luxury of private school.

 

I might not be as bothered for a teenager, but it would depend on the solidity of my child's faith, rather than so much a skill learning reason. And at that point, it wouldn't matter what outwardly religious symbol was being displayed. If it wasn't the one I believed in, then I wouldn't want my kid learning from it. My kiddos can learn other faith doctrines when, and only when, I think they are ready. And I don't limit this thought process to just religion. It applies to social norms, as well. I like the control of me being the primary influence of my child's value system.

 

And for those who worry about tolerance, that is just another value I choose to teach my kiddos in my time, in my own way, not when someone else thinks it should be taught.

 

And I do a decent job of this teaching, if I do say so myself. :)

[goldberry]

Addressing the issue of whether it's a negative message to children about certain attitudes toward women...not saying I agree with that, but if I did...

 

I tend to view those occasions as teaching and discussion opportunities rather than preferring to remove my child from the situation. There are SO MANY situations in society that are opposite to my values, there is no way I can just remove my child from them all. So rather than even attempt that, I prefer to just keep discussing, keep teaching, and use those situations as opportunities for learning.

 

I'm not referring to safety issues, but issues where there is just an opposing moral value presented.

[Spock]

Nah, it wouldn't bother me, unless her voice was being too muffled by the fabric. She must have to speak a bit loudly and clearly for it to come through well.

 

It could also be an issue for hearing impaired students who rely on lipreading for part of their understanding.

 

For students who have no special learning needs I wouldn't really care.

[pfamilygal]

Yes. I would have a problem.

 

One, non-verbal communication is a huge part of the way all mammals communicate. It would be detrimental to my children to have them staring at a veil and eyeballs all day.

 

Two, it sends a very ugly message about men and women. You can tell me it's freedom of religion and that is fine. You have the right to wear one at home/in public. You have the right to believe whatever you want, but I do not have to approve of it.

 

Covering from head to toe in the name of modesty is detrimental to both sexes. For women, it makes them hidden and invisible. For men, it tells them that they are babies. They cannot be responsible for their actions around the female body, so it must be hidden from them. I would be peeved if my child was placed in their class!

 

And yes, blocking the windows is cruel. A child should not be forced to be in a room with no windows so a teacher can abide by ridiculous standards of modesty. I'm sure she is a lovely lady, but I don't think her face is so scandalously beautiful that any man who happened to see it would immediately drop his pants and start humping her leg!