Teaching in a niqab (discuss)

[Negin]

Covering from head to toe in the name of modesty is detrimental to both sexes. For women, it makes them hidden and invisible. For men, it tells them that they are babies. They cannot be responsible for their actions around the female body, so it must be hidden from them.

:iagree:

You said it all so well. Brilliant. Your entire post was great.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

i feel like this if i am in a free country where i have the right to freedom of religion i have every right to dress in with my face covered if i feel like it. i am born and raised American. my father fought in the military and got injured fighting for our country. i am concerned that people(not necessarily you i am speaking in general) feel like certain rights should not be given to certain people because its not what they agree with

 

Yes we do have freedom of religion but IMO face covering should not be allowed in all situations. For example, if one enters a bank or a store or goes through airport security, I believe one's face should be uncovered as a security measure.

 

If one is a teacher, in order to effectively teach one 's face must be visible. I cannot hear my dh if he is not facing me at all. I need to see his face to hear him.

 

You mention freedom, well I am concerned that many, not all, Muslim women are not free to uncover their faces. Just look at the examples of the Taliban beating women who had so much as an ankle exposed:glare:

 

As far as I am concerned if only one woman is forced to do this, it is one too many.

 

For the record, I do believe in modesty and detest clothes that show too much and make women look sex objects. OTOH I do not think one has to essentially put on a blanket like the burqa to be modest.

As for bikinis, I much prefer more coverage on the beach like tankinis and cover-ups and what. However, I see no problem with bikinis and swim suits on the beach where they are meant to be worn.

Edited April 18, 2012 by priscilla

[Kate in Arabia]

I'm sure she is a lovely lady, but I don't think her face is so scandalously beautiful that any man who happened to see it would immediately drop his pants and start humping her leg!

 

The women I know who wear niqab do so either a) because it is the cultural/societal norm where they live; and/or b) because they interpret religious scripture to mean that God is instructing them to do so specifically (not their personal understanding of dressing "modestly"). Worrying about men humping their legs doesn't come into it.

 

But that isn't exactly germaine to the op. I personally would be fine with a niqabi teaching my kids as long as it didn't impair her teaching in any way, didn't prove to be too much of a distraction for her to be able to maintain a learning atmosphere, and as long as she didn't inject any of her personal beliefs (overtly or covertly) into her teaching. I reckon I'd feel the same about any teacher, regarding just about any aspect of their personal appearance.

[laundrycrisis]

I would not like it. I would not complain about it in any way unless it was affecting her teaching, but I will openly say that I would not personally like it. I find the idea that a woman feels it is necessary to cover her face for religious reasons - for any religion - to be repulsive - just I find the idea of Christian women feeling they must submit to their husbands just because they have the boy parts to be repulsive. I would not be happy to see an outward sign of that specific belief either because it would represent something that I very strongly disagree with. I do respect each woman's freedom to choose these things and I would explain to my child that the face is covered because this woman believes she should as part of her religion, and we respect her freedom to make that choice. But I would also explain that in some cultures this is not a choice but an oppressive requirement that women are punished for not following. I would explain that in this country, she is making a free choice. Respecting her freedom is different from me liking the face covering, and I would not. Head coverings or long skirts/loose pants do not strike me in the same way as making a person into a faceless object. But I personally see expectations of face covering as part of a horrible oppression of women. I wish I could be all PC about this, but I'm not.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I would not like it. I would not complain about it in any way unless it was affecting her teaching, but I will openly say that I would not personally like it. I find the idea that a woman feels it is necessary to cover her face for religious reasons - for any religion - to be repulsive - just I find the idea of Christian women feeling they must submit to their husbands just because they have the boy parts to be repulsive. I would not be happy to see an outward sign of that specific belief either because it would represent something that I very strongly disagree with. I do respect each woman's freedom to choose these things and I would explain to my child that the face is covered because this woman believes she should as part of her religion, and we respect her freedom to make that choice. But I would also explain that in some cultures this is not a choice but an oppressive requirement that women are punished for not following. I would explain that in this country, she is making a free choice. Respecting her freedom is different from me liking the face covering, and I would not. Head coverings or long skirts/loose pants do not strike me in the same way as making a person into a faceless object. But I personally see expectations of face covering as part of a horrible oppression of women. I wish I could be all PC about this, but I'm not.

 

:iagree: IMO God loves men and women equally:) I would add that even in America I suspect that there are women who are forced to wear these sort of things. Just look at the incidents of honor killings in this country:(

[EmilyK]

For the people who are okay with it (almost everyone):

 

-- How would you feel if a teacher who was immune compromised was teaching via speakerphone or Skype? Would your answer change if the reason he/she was not in the classroom was agoraphobia?

 

-- I see clothes as a form of communication. Are you comfortable with non-religious views being communicated? I'm not sure how exactly you would do this, but if a teacher wanted to communicate he or she was gay via attire, are you okay with that? Would it be okay for a transvestite male teacher to teach in a dress?

 

-- Are you okay with teachers talking about their religious views in class? If you agree with me that attire can be communication, are you okay with the views she is sharing?

 

-- Would you be okay with it if all the teachers were dressed that way? Would it matter if your kids were girls or boys? would it depend on your own views on religion and the role of women?

 

Overall, I'd be okay with the OP's teacher in the US school context. It would mostly be about tolerance. That said, I'm really uncomfortable with religious messages about the submission/lesser status of women and I'm not sure they should be shared in a public elementary, either verbally or nonverbally.

[pfamilygal]

The women I know who wear niqab do so either a) because it is the cultural/societal norm where they live; and/or b) because they interpret religious scripture to mean that God is instructing them to do so specifically (not their personal understanding of dressing "modestly"). Worrying about men humping their legs doesn't come into it.

 

But that isn't exactly germaine to the op. I personally would be fine with a niqabi teaching my kids as long as it didn't impair her teaching in any way, didn't prove to be too much of a distraction for her to be able to maintain a learning atmosphere, and as long as she didn't inject any of her personal beliefs (overtly or covertly) into her teaching. I reckon I'd feel the same about any teacher, regarding just about any aspect of their personal appearance.

 

Why the worry about post-puberty men, then? It is a way for men to make it the woman's responsibility to guard the MAN's heart/thoughts/actions. It shouldn't be. Women should not be made to wear a sheet because any religious/cultural tradition demands it. And as I understand it, the Koran does not demand this junk. 6th century Arab culture adopted as faith demands it.

 

FWIW, I feel the same way about Christians and Orthodox Jews who have their women obsessing about showing a bit of skin. I have friends who cover their heads and wear long dresses so they "don't make their brothers stumble." Umm, what about having your brothers guard their freaking thought life? (And don't bring up the tired "but men are so visual" argument. If all men were visual and all women weren't, why do we have kilt threads?) These Christian friends of mine are so judgmental about anyone showing a knee or and elbow. It's ridiculous and demeans men AND women.

 

I think my ps'ed kids (my 5th this year, my 1st next year) deserve to look at something besides a talking sheet with eyes. They deserve to see facial expression. Where I come from it considered rude to hide your face when you speak.

[mommaduck]

I'll bite.

For the people who are okay with it (almost everyone):

 

-- How would you feel if a teacher who was immune compromised was teaching via speakerphone or Skype? Would your answer change if the reason he/she was not in the classroom was agoraphobia? Not sure how this would play out in a classroom, but I have taken a class that was exactly this way, from my own home and it is offered through various virtual classrooms.

 

-- I see clothes as a form of communication. Are you comfortable with non-religious views being communicated? I'm not sure how exactly you would do this, but if a teacher wanted to communicate he or she was gay via attire, are you okay with that? Would it be okay for a transvestite male teacher to teach in a dress? Would not bother me. I think we are becoming accustomed to it in society. Kids may say some things, but I've also taught my kids to accept people where they are at, regardless of our personal views.

 

-- Are you okay with teachers talking about their religious views in class? If you agree with me that attire can be communication, are you okay with the views she is sharing? I experienced this in public school. I am okay with it to an extent. If a child asks, the teacher should be able to answer openly and honestly. However, shoving their belief down a child's throat and grading a child upon their response to a belief is another story (which is the neg that I experienced).

 

-- Would you be okay with it if all the teachers were dressed that way? Would it matter if your kids were girls or boys? would it depend on your own views on religion and the role of women? It does not bother me if a teacher has a headcovering or a kippah or a particular style of clothing on. The face being covered is the only thing that bothers me due the need for so many to see facial expressions and read cues...there is a personal connection.

 

Overall, I'd be okay with the OP's teacher in the US school context. It would mostly be about tolerance. That said, I'm really uncomfortable with religious messages about the submission/lesser status of women and I'm not sure they should be shared in a public elementary, either verbally or nonverbally.

I've known women of various faiths (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, and various others) that cover. Many do not cover because of some form of submission and many agree that there is a power on a woman's head. There is a common sense of that power being sacred, varying from faith to faith, but shared. It's something that makes us neither above nor below man, but rather different.

[Mergath]

For the people who are okay with it (almost everyone):

 

-- How would you feel if a teacher who was immune compromised was teaching via speakerphone or Skype? Would your answer change if the reason he/she was not in the classroom was agoraphobia?

 

-- I see clothes as a form of communication. Are you comfortable with non-religious views being communicated? I'm not sure how exactly you would do this, but if a teacher wanted to communicate he or she was gay via attire, are you okay with that? Would it be okay for a transvestite male teacher to teach in a dress?

 

-- Are you okay with teachers talking about their religious views in class? If you agree with me that attire can be communication, are you okay with the views she is sharing?

 

-- Would you be okay with it if all the teachers were dressed that way? Would it matter if your kids were girls or boys? would it depend on your own views on religion and the role of women?

 

Overall, I'd be okay with the OP's teacher in the US school context. It would mostly be about tolerance. That said, I'm really uncomfortable with religious messages about the submission/lesser status of women and I'm not sure they should be shared in a public elementary, either verbally or nonverbally.

 

How in the world is wearing a thin piece of fabric over the lower half of the face in any way akin to not being present in the classroom? I don't think that's at all relevant. Also, a person's sexual orientation has no bearing on their ability to teach. And just for the record, I wouldn't have a problem with a transvestite man teaching in a dress. I've met several transvestite and transgender people in my life, and overall, they're some of the kindest people you'll ever meet, and often have a special understanding of how difficult it is to be a kid and find acceptance. My dd has already been exposed to the wonderful range of humanity, and knows that the world is made up of all kinds of people.

 

Talking about religion in class doesn't bother me in the context of religious studies. I don't think wearing a niqab is the same as actively trying to convert the children though, any more than a teacher wearing a dress instead of pants for religious reasons is trying to convert her class.

 

And no, it wouldn't bother me if all the teachers dressed like that. I like to think that my dd will be intelligent enough when she is older to understand that people have a range of different beliefs, and that being around people who think differently doesn't mean she has to change her own beliefs.

[catz]

For the people who are okay with it (almost everyone):

 

-- How would you feel if a teacher who was immune compromised was teaching via speakerphone or Skype? Would your answer change if the reason he/she was not in the classroom was agoraphobia?

 

-- I see clothes as a form of communication. Are you comfortable with non-religious views being communicated? I'm not sure how exactly you would do this, but if a teacher wanted to communicate he or she was gay via attire, are you okay with that? Would it be okay for a transvestite male teacher to teach in a dress?

 

-- Are you okay with teachers talking about their religious views in class? If you agree with me that attire can be communication, are you okay with the views she is sharing?

 

-- Would you be okay with it if all the teachers were dressed that way? Would it matter if your kids were girls or boys? would it depend on your own views on religion and the role of women?

 

Overall, I'd be okay with the OP's teacher in the US school context. It would mostly be about tolerance. That said, I'm really uncomfortable with religious messages about the submission/lesser status of women and I'm not sure they should be shared in a public elementary, either verbally or nonverbally.

 

I think these are great questions to think about. For us, it is about tolerance. I am not submissive in the least and I am not Christian or Muslim. We try to teach our kids it's fine that everyone is different, and that we can be tolerant and even friendly with people who have differing beliefs. If ALL the teachers were dressed that way, it seems likely it is would be a Muslim school and my kids wouldn't attend and any talk of religion in a PS classroom I would want to come from a historical perspective. I am very close friends with gay and lesbians,and have known transvestites personally so no problem there for me.

 

Just to be perfectly clear, I am not at all in favor of women being the submissive sex. My kids are crystal clear on that. I just don't think it's my place to dictate anyone else's beliefs. Because we live in an urban area where we cross paths with Muslims, orthodox Jews, and extremely conservative Christians, my kids seem to have no problem with this.

[Julie Smith]

For the people who are okay with it (almost everyone):

 

-- How would you feel if a teacher who was immune compromised was teaching via speakerphone or Skype? Would your answer change if the reason he/she was not in the classroom was agoraphobia?

 

Nope, if you are hired to teach in person, you should teach in person. If you are unable to do so then perhaps this isn't the job for you. I can't think of many people who can focus as well on something without a real person present helping. There is a reason I have a teacher come to us for piano lessons vs. hiring someone via. skype.

 

-- I see clothes as a form of communication. Are you comfortable with non-religious views being communicated? I'm not sure how exactly you would do this, but if a teacher wanted to communicate he or she was gay via attire, are you okay with that? Would it be okay for a transvestite male teacher to teach in a dress?

 

I would have no problem with this. I can't see how it would interfere with teaching or interacting. (Of course a person can take an outfit to a extreme. I am thinking a normal outfit not something you would find someone wearing in a gay/transvestite parade.

 

-- Are you okay with teachers talking about their religious views in class? If you agree with me that attire can be communication, are you okay with the views she is sharing?

 

As long as it's shared in a "this is what I believe" kind of way, and not a "This is the way it is way".

[Mergath]

 

I think my ps'ed kids (my 5th this year, my 1st next year) deserve to look at something besides a talking sheet with eyes.

 

:001_huh: Wow, that's harsh. Honestly, If I was Muslim I'd be pretty darn offended by that characterization.

[myfunnybunch]

Just musing....What if you moved to another country/culture where everyone walked around stark naked, and assumed that because you wear clothing you believe that men are infantile or unable to control themselves, that you are communicating that women are somehow lesser than men, that you are being forced to wear clothing, and that because you wear clothing you must be repressed? I wear clothing because I was raised to believe nakedness is private, I would be uncomfortable without it, and because in my country it is (usually) illegal to walk around naked in public.

 

A woman wearing a niqab by choice while teaching wouldn't make me think twice, other than making me curious about why she makes that particular choice. I think the best way to find out why people make the choices they make is to have a conversation, rather than making assumptions about her reasons for a personal choice.

 

Cat

[ezrabean2005]

:001_huh: Wow, that's harsh. Honestly, If I was Muslim I'd be pretty darn offended by that characterization.

:iagree:

[ezrabean2005]

Just musing....What if you moved to another country/culture where everyone walked around stark naked, and assumed that because you wear clothing you believe that men are infantile or unable to control themselves, that you are communicating that women are somehow lesser than men, that you are being forced to wear clothing, and that because you wear clothing you must be repressed? I wear clothing because I was raised to believe nakedness is private, I would be uncomfortable without it, and because in my country it is (usually) illegal to walk around naked in public.

 

A woman wearing a niqab by choice while teaching wouldn't make me think twice, other than making me curious about why she makes that particular choice. I think the best way to find out why people make the choices they make is to have a conversation, rather than making assumptions about her reasons for a personal choice.

 

Cat

 

:hurray:These are very good questions, Cat.

[catz]

:hurray:These are very good questions, Cat.

 

:iagree:

[Julie Smith]

Just musing....What if you moved to another country/culture where everyone walked around stark naked, and assumed that because you wear clothing you believe that men are infantile or unable to control themselves, that you are communicating that women are somehow lesser than men, that you are being forced to wear clothing, and that because you wear clothing you must be repressed? I wear clothing because I was raised to believe nakedness is private, I would be uncomfortable without it, and because in my country it is (usually) illegal to walk around naked in public.

 

I have trouble missing a chance to mention a book when it seems like the perfect time to do so.

 

The book "Splint Infinity" the first in the Apperntice Adept" by Piers Anthony series takes place on a world were for 99.9% of the populace wearing or owning clothes is illegal. It is not the point of the story but it does discuss why the world is this way, and how it effects people and society in general.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Split-Infinity-Apprentice-Adept-ebook/dp/B006XWYBCW/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1334778496&sr=1-1"

[pfamilygal]

:001_huh: Wow, that's harsh. Honestly, If I was Muslim I'd be pretty darn offended by that characterization.

 

But how would a kid see it? Sure, we would use it as a way to talk about respecting differences. But, at the end of the day, the child is still looking at a large sheet of (usually) black fabric with only eyes showing. No facial expression.

[pfamilygal]

Just musing....What if you moved to another country/culture where everyone walked around stark naked, and assumed that because you wear clothing you believe that men are infantile or unable to control themselves, that you are communicating that women are somehow lesser than men, that you are being forced to wear clothing, and that because you wear clothing you must be repressed? I wear clothing because I was raised to believe nakedness is private, I would be uncomfortable without it, and because in my country it is (usually) illegal to walk around naked in public.

 

A woman wearing a niqab by choice while teaching wouldn't make me think twice, other than making me curious about why she makes that particular choice. I think the best way to find out why people make the choices they make is to have a conversation, rather than making assumptions about her reasons for a personal choice.

 

Cat

 

If it were about the body being private it would apply to men AND women. But it doesn't. Come down to DFW. You'll see Muslim men in shorts and T's and women in niqabs practically drowning in the pool. Until it applies to both men and women, it is sexism.

 

So you would be okay with your child never seeing his or her teacher's face?

[Negin]

I find the idea that a woman feels it is necessary to cover her face for religious reasons - for any religion - to be repulsive - just I find the idea of Christian women feeling they must submit to their husbands just because they have the boy parts to be repulsive.

This.

And I'm a deeply religious person, btw, but I totally agree. My religion does not enforce this.

 

I personally see expectations of face covering as part of a horrible oppression of women. I wish I could be all PC about this, but I'm not.

Yes to both.

I cannot be PC about this either.

Considering my cultural background, such stuff infuriates me. Drives me out. of. my. mind.

 

IMO God loves men and women equally(

Exactly.

 

I understand it, the Koran does not demand this junk. 6th century Arab culture adopted as faith demands it.

True (as far as I know).

 

Umm, what about having your brothers guard their freaking thought life?

Exactly. I remember reading years ago when there were lots of rapes in Israel and my hero Golda Meir and what she said. They told her that there should be a nightly curfew and that women should not be out after a certain hour. Her response (paraphrasing here :D), "Why should women have to not be out? If anyone needs to have a curfew, it should be the men."

 

These Christian friends of mine are so judgmental about anyone showing a knee or and elbow. It's ridiculous and demeans men AND women.

Yes. I have to say that I have experienced the judgmental attitudes and mean/nasty looks mainly from Muslims, but also from Christians. And here I was thinking that one should not judge ... :glare: The funny thing is that I dress fairly conservatively myself, but the looks I often get from Muslim women (since I am and do look Middle Eastern) are the worst. They really don't seem to like me very much. :tongue_smilie:

 

deserve to look at something besides a talking sheet with eyes. They deserve to see facial expression.

I know that others have already taken offense to this. I personally do not and again, would love to be all PC about this, but after a life of experience in this area and basic common-sense - I have to say that I fully agree with you. It's oppression of women, plain and simple. My dc would snicker and laugh and ask endlessly distracting questions. And yes, my dc, as cultured and all that they are, would see her as a talking sheet with eyes.

 

What if you moved to another country/culture where everyone walked around stark naked, and assumed that because you wear clothing you believe that men are infantile or unable to control themselves, that you are communicating that women are somehow lesser than men, that you are being forced to wear clothing, and that because you wear clothing you must be repressed? I wear clothing because I was raised to believe nakedness is private, I would be uncomfortable without it, and because in my country it is (usually) illegal to walk around naked in public.

I don't think this is a very accurate example. These women are exposed to movies, the internet, Western magazines, etc. and they see images of us regular women all. the. time. They don't see women wearing regular clothes (not bikinis and cleavage, but regular clothes) as being an aberration or in the same vein in quite the same way we would if we were forced to live in a nudist colony. If one were to say that we were to view nudist movies and read nudist magazines for years and years until it becomes normalized and we're desensitized to all that, then I would think that you might have a valid point. But otherwise, not so.

And again, why shouldn't the men be covered up also? Why just women?

 

If it were about the body being private it would apply to men AND women. But it doesn't. Come down to DFW. You'll see Muslim men in shorts and T's and women in niqabs practically drowning in the pool. Until it applies to both men and women, it is sexism.

Yep, sexism and oppression of women.

[bettyandbob]

But how would a kid see it? Sure, we would use it as a way to talk about respecting differences. But, at the end of the day, the child is still looking at a large sheet of (usually) black fabric with only eyes showing. No facial expression.

 

 

If they are seeing something for the first time, children tend to roll with whatever is going on. Children who have the most negative response are taking cues from their parents or adults with them.

 

For someone who appears to try to present as openminded, "a talking sheet" is incredibly closed minded and offensive.

[Negin]

If they are seeing something for the first time, children tend to roll with whatever is going on.

Sometimes, but not always. Not in my experience.

 

Children who have the most negative response are taking cues from their parents or adults with them.

Again, sometimes, but not always.

My dc are old enough to have their own opinions and they're often very different to mine.

 

For someone who appears to try to present as openminded, "a talking sheet" is incredibly closed minded and offensive.

To me, the whole concept absolutely drips sexism and oppression. I don't think open-mindedness is the issue here.

Why should women be the only ones covered up?

Are the men being open-minded?

Are the women being open-minded when they give judgmental and rude looks to yours truly for not being covered up as they are?

Are they being open-minded when they beat a 10-year-old girl to death for not being covered up and running over by accident to the male part of the beach?

Are they being open-minded when they view women not covered up like them as being "wh@res"?

Open-minded ... don't get me started on that. I've sooo had it with their intolerance. Excuse me, but I've had plenty of experience in this after 44 years.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Negin in Grenada

[goldberry]

:001_huh: Wow, that's harsh. Honestly, If I was Muslim I'd be pretty darn offended by that characterization.

 

:iagree: I was rather shocked by that also.

[pfamilygal]

 

 

If they are seeing something for the first time, children tend to roll with whatever is going on. Children who have the most negative response are taking cues from their parents or adults with them.

 

For someone who appears to try to present as openminded, "a talking sheet" is incredibly closed minded and offensive.

 

Or maybe it's a hyperbole to make a point. (Though honestly, what is the point of a niqab? To hide a woman and make her disappear until she is only a set of eyes. It's not about empowering women to be equal partners in society!)

 

I will be close-minded about any faith or culture that subjects women in the name of "protecting" or "cherishing" them. Like I said before, unless the prohibition against showing any flesh applies to men and women equally, it is sexism. A free society says we all have the right to believe what we want. It doesn't mean I have to approve of your beliefs.

 

Look at the countries that enforce the wearing of such garb - are they bastions of freedom? Saudi women can't even drive a car. And yet we are supposed to see the donning of these clothes as a symbol of freedom. It stinks of oppression to me.

 

The funny thing is, I HATE that the niqab reduces women to sheets with eyes. But that is the niqab, not me! I know there are beautiful, strong women behind those veils and I despise the fact that their faith/culture swaddles them away from the world in robes of black. But you can't erect a cloth wall and then be offended when it separates you.

 

To those who would blame me for the separation, I'd say this again: non-verbal communication is important. Especially cross-culturally. If I cannot see your face and you don't speak English very well, we will not be able to communicate easily. I think this is one underlying reason behind women wearing them in the States. It cuts them off from mainstream American society and forces them to rely on their own family/cultural peer group. Which makes them easier for men to control.

Edited April 18, 2012 by pfamilygal

[myfunnybunch]

If it were about the body being private it would apply to men AND women. But it doesn't. Come down to DFW. You'll see Muslim men in shorts and T's and women in niqabs practically drowning in the pool. Until it applies to both men and women, it is sexism.

 

So you would be okay with your child never seeing his or her teacher's face?

 

It is legal for my husband to mow the lawn or walk around town or swim at the lake without a shirt. I would feel very uncomfortable walking around in public topless. I wouldn't do it even though it would be far more comfortable on a hot day, even though it's unequal. And I would object to anyone trying assume my reasons for that are based in submission, or I'm making that choice in fear of retribution. I just wouldn't be comfortable.

 

I meant it when I said that it wouldn't even occur to me to object or even really think twice about my children not seeing the face of a teacher who chooses to wear a niqab. My kids probably wouldn't care either, beyond wondering why she chose to wear it.

 

And I understand that you perceive an inequality in the way Muslim couples dress in your community. It is an interesting issue, but it's really neither here nor there when considering whether a classroom teacher should be allowed to wear a niqab in the classroom. We have no idea how her husband dresses, how he feels about her wearing the niqab, or whether she wishes she could run around in shorts on a hot day, nor do we need to know.

 

Cat

[bettyandbob]

I will be close-minded about any faith or culture that subjects women in the name of "protecting" or "cherishing" them. Like I said before, unless the prohibition against showing any flesh applies to men and women equally, it is sexism. A free society says we all have the right to believe what we want. It doesn't mean I have to approve of your beliefs.

 

Look at the countries that enforce the wearing of such garb - are they bastions of freedom? Saudi women can't even drive a car. And yet we are supposed to see the donning of these clothes as a symbol of freedom. It stinks of oppression to me.

 

The funny thing is, I HATE that the niqab reduces women to sheets with eyes. But that is the niqab, not me! I know there are beautiful, strong women behind those veils and I despise the fact that their faith/culture swaddles them away from the world in robes of black. But you can't erect a cloth wall and then be offended when it separates you.

 

To those who would blame me for the separation, I'd say this again: non-verbal communication is important. Especially cross-culturally. If I cannot see your face and you don't speak English very well, we will not be able to communicate easily. I think this is one underlying reason behind women wearing them in the States. It cuts them off from mainstream American society and forces them to rely on their own family/cultural peer group. Which makes them easier for men to control.

 

 

It appears you do not understand religion or the niqab and simply have attached your own meaning to it.

 

Who said the person in the niqab would have an accent?! That's a pretty prejudiced assumption. If you didn't mean to suggest that a person in a niqab couldn't speak English clearly then you shouldn't have said it. The most conservative muslims I know are American born.

[pfamilygal]

 

 

It appears you do not understand religion or the niqab and simply have attached your own meaning to it.

 

Who said the person in the niqab would have an accent?! That's a pretty prejudiced assumption. If you didn't mean to suggest that a person in a niqab couldn't speak English clearly then you shouldn't have said it. The most conservative muslims I know are American born.

 

The ones in my neighborhood do. My Muslim friends who are 2nd or 3rd generation Americans don't cover, for the most part. Some do. They only wear a head-covering and it doesn't impeded normal conversation (including verbal and non-verbal communication). Saying I don't think a person in a niqab would speak English clearly is ridiculous. I never said that. But, IME, the Muslims who cover the most are new immigrants who speak heavily accented English.

 

The niqab separates. It is not "me attaching meaning" to something to point out that is separates.

 

What do you take it to mean?

Edited April 18, 2012 by pfamilygal

[Jennifer3141]

I don't understand how anyone cannot see the sexism in the niqab. Why do we NEVER have a discussion about this and men? Why have we never in world history covered up men's faces, mouths, or ankles?? If one sex is forced by society or culture to do/wear/live something differently than another sex, that's SEXISM.

 

If you don't think it's sexism put a niqab on your husband, head out for dinner, and get back to me. :glare::glare:

[myfunnybunch]

I don't think this is a very accurate example. These women are exposed to movies, the internet, Western magazines, etc. and they see images of us regular women all. the. time. They don't see women wearing regular clothes (not bikinis and cleavage, but regular clothes) as being an aberration or in the same vein in quite the same way we would if we were forced to live in a nudist colony. If one were to say that we were to view nudist movies and read nudist magazines for years and years until it becomes normalized and we're desensitized to all that, then I would think that you might have a valid point. But otherwise, not so.

And again, why shouldn't the men be covered up also? Why just women?

 

 

I guess I didn't intend it as an example so much as trying to put myself in the shoes of a woman choosing to make a different clothing choice. I'm trying to imagine how I would feel in a situation that made me feel incredibly exposed, and how I'd feel about assumptions made about me (and my husband!) because I made a different choice.

 

If I did move to another culture where others walked around stark naked, I would indeed be seeing people stark naked all the time, in movies and at the store and in magazines. I might have even been exposed to that on the internet and in movies and magazines before I moved there. But I still don't think I would be comfortable going around naked.

 

Some Muslim women who live in our culture do shed the traditional clothing that we think of as restrictive. We often don't notice these women because they blend in, as I would if in my new culture I decide "Yee-haw! Finally I don't have to wear clothing!" Some don't. My point really is that we should respect the choices and comfort level of those who don't instead of making blanket assumptions about them.

 

ETA: I wonder too, if we're kind of talking apples and oranges. I am not making any kind of statement about whether or not the general cultural practice of wearing a niqab is sexist or not. I am addressing personal choice. Actually, I am reminded of a couple thoughtful and intelligent discussions on this board started by women considering and/or choosing to wear head coverings as a Christian religious preference. It was interesting and thought-provoking for me, as I must admit I always made certain assumptions about women who wore head covering. Just thinking out loud again. :)

 

Cat

Edited April 18, 2012 by myfunnybunch

[pfamilygal]

. We often don't notice these women because they blend in,

 

Cat

 

I think the opposite. A covering makes women part of the scenery, instead of the vibrant human beings they are.

 

And again, the question of the OP wasn't "what do you think of the niqab? Should women be allowed to wear them?" It asked if we would be comfortable with our children being taught be a person who cannot communicate normally and is sending messages about sexual equality/roles with their clothing choices.

Edited April 18, 2012 by pfamilygal

[Lucy the Valiant]

I don't understand how anyone cannot see the sexism in the niqab. Why do we NEVER have a discussion about this and men? Why have we never in world history covered up men's faces, mouths, or ankles?? If one sex is forced by society or culture to do/wear/live something differently than another sex, that's SEXISM.

 

If you don't think it's sexism put a niqab on your husband, head out for dinner, and get back to me. :glare::glare:

 

This.

[hana]

But how would a kid see it? Sure, we would use it as a way to talk about respecting differences. But, at the end of the day, the child is still looking at a large sheet of (usually) black fabric with only eyes showing. No facial expression.

 

I would hope that I would have taught my children well enough to believe that people are people, no matter what they are wearing.

[pfamilygal]

I would hope that I would have taught my children well enough to believe that people are people, no matter what they are wearing.

 

There is a difference between clothing and covering. Would you allow your child to be taught by someone who wanted to be a superhero and wore a mask covering most of their face (impeding normal communication)? Would you just talk about it being different? This isn't about clothing. It is about someone separating herself from the world with a covering.

[myfunnybunch]

I think the opposite. A covering makes women part of the scenery, instead of the vibrant human beings they are.

 

And again, the question of the OP wasn't "what do you think of the niqab? Should women be allowed to wear them?" It asked if we would be comfortable with our children being taught be a person who cannot communicate normally and is sending messages about sexual equality/roles with their clothing choices.

 

I wonder if you misunderstood what I meant. I mean that the women who adopt the clothing and habits of the new culture, the women who do NOT wear traditional clothing, do not stand out as different from us. They cannot be identified as different because they look like everyone else.

 

Actually the original question was:

"Would this bother you if your child's teacher wore a niqab? Would it be none of your business?"

 

My belief from the outside that it is a cuturally sexist practice does not make it my business to judge an individual woman's choice, made in her own cultural context, if it doesn't harm my children. And since I don't believe that it's harmful to be exposed to different cultural customs, it's none of my business.

 

Cat

Edited April 18, 2012 by myfunnybunch

[Lucy the Valiant]

And for me, too, there is the visible, outward connection to cultures that *DO* oppress women, actively and horribly and with full governmental and religious approval. I realize that some women wear them by personal choice, but . . . MANY women do not. :( And for me, as a freedom-lover, the connection to slavery and oppression is difficult, more difficult than I would want my young elementary-age children (both boys AND girls) to attempt to sort through.

 

(I'm trying to word this in a way that is respectful to the women here who wear niqabs; I'm trying to think of an analogous relationship, and the only one I can think of is blackface. :( )

 

If my child were in that situation, I would not challenge the teacher's right to be there, but I would remove my own child from that classroom.

[bettyandbob]

There is a difference between clothing and covering. Would you allow your child to be taught by someone who wanted to be a superhero and wore a mask covering most of their face (impeding normal communication)? Would you just talk about it being different? This isn't about clothing. It is about someone separating herself from the world with a covering.

 

 

dressing like you are attending Comicon is not the same as wearing religious attire. I do not believe the niqab inhibits communication. Being silly (dressing as a superhero) could enhance instruction, but has the potential to seriously disrupt instruction.

[trailofsparks]

On various levels already mentioned, I would definitely have a problem with someone teaching in a public classroom wearing a niqab. I agree with Germany's view, basically. I get so tired of how we bend over backwards to accommodate other cultures!

 

Let people of various cultures and religions practice in ways that do not affect others, whether privately or publicly. In America, communication is understood through body language in large part. So, I would not tolerate my dc to be without that for an entire year of their learning.

 

If wearing a niqab is that important (where she would not remove it to teach - or she would throw it back over her face ONLY when men walked into her classroom.... This would certainly demand an explanation to observant, curious children, after all) I could not support this.

[pfamilygal]

 

 

dressing like you are attending Comicon is not the same as wearing religious attire. I do not believe the niqab inhibits communication. Being silly (dressing as a superhero) could enhance instruction, but has the potential to seriously disrupt instruction.

 

I was making a point. A mask disrupts communication. A niqab disrupts communication. You can disbelieve in non-verbal communication, but it is still a vital part of normal human interaction.

[pfamilygal]

So, do we have any HiveMoms who wear a niqab?

Edited April 18, 2012 by pfamilygal

[Spy Car]

 

Oh, and I totally need to learn to multi-quote.

 

See the little icon to the right of the "Quote" box that looks like "+?

 

Press that, it will light up in a reddish-orange color. Then do the same thing with other posts you want to multi-quote. When you have finished hit "Quote" and you're good to go.

 

Bill (who is dodging this discussion :D)

[pfamilygal]

See the little icon to the right of the "Quote" box that looks like "+?

 

Press that, it will light up in a reddish-orange color. Then do the same thing with other posts you want to multi-quote. When you have finished hit "Quote" and you're good to go.

 

Bill (who is dodging this discussion :D)

 

Gracias.

[Spy Car]

Gracias.

 

De nada :001_smile:

 

Bill

[Amirah]

i stopped reading this thread awhile ago. but i did want to again say if anyone is really curious about niqab they are more than welcome to contact me. i do where niqab, i have taught in school, i do have a special needs child. i am more than willing to answer any thing you would like to ask. i will not post or reply to any comments here as i feel the thread took a direction i am just not caring to go in

[frugalmama]

:001_huh: Wow, that's harsh. Honestly, If I was Muslim I'd be pretty darn offended by that characterization.

 

Muslim here, and :iagree:

 

If it were about the body being private it would apply to men AND women. But it doesn't. Come down to DFW. You'll see Muslim men in shorts and T's and women in niqabs practically drowning in the pool. Until it applies to both men and women, it is sexism.

 

So you would be okay with your child never seeing his or her teacher's face?

 

Actually there is a level of hijab {modesty} prescribed for both men and women in Islam. Men are to be covered from the navel to the knee at all times. Women are to cover all but their face, hands, and feet when around non-related males but the interpretation of that is up to each individual woman. It is not prescribed per say for women to cover their faces, BUT some do because the wives of Muhammad did so. FWIW When just around women the covering is from navel to knee, the same as for men.

 

Or maybe it's a hyperbole to make a point. (Though honestly, what is the point of a niqab? To hide a woman and make her disappear until she is only a set of eyes. It's not about empowering women to be equal partners in society!)

 

I will be close-minded about any faith or culture that subjects women in the name of "protecting" or "cherishing" them. Like I said before, unless the prohibition against showing any flesh applies to men and women equally, it is sexism. A free society says we all have the right to believe what we want. It doesn't mean I have to approve of your beliefs.

 

Look at the countries that enforce the wearing of such garb - are they bastions of freedom? Saudi women can't even drive a car. And yet we are supposed to see the donning of these clothes as a symbol of freedom. It stinks of oppression to me.

 

The funny thing is, I HATE that the niqab reduces women to sheets with eyes. But that is the niqab, not me! I know there are beautiful, strong women behind those veils and I despise the fact that their faith/culture swaddles them away from the world in robes of black. But you can't erect a cloth wall and then be offended when it separates you.

 

To those who would blame me for the separation, I'd say this again: non-verbal communication is important. Especially cross-culturally. If I cannot see your face and you don't speak English very well, we will not be able to communicate easily. I think this is one underlying reason behind women wearing them in the States. It cuts them off from mainstream American society and forces them to rely on their own family/cultural peer group. Which makes them easier for men to control.

 

As to the bolded comment - FWIW, in the Quran BOTH men and women are directed to lower their gaze and guard their modesty. Both the Bible and the Torah also instruct women to cover themselves as well.

 

As to the Italicized comment - it is CULTURAL NOT RELIGIOUS. There is a fine line {that often gets confused} as to cultural practices in Islam and Arabic countries vs. actual real Islamic practices as discussed in the Quran and Hadiths. Many of the practices like the lack of women's right are purely cultural but done in the name of "religion". Islam actually gave women a lot more rights historically than many Islamic countries give them now, including being the first nation to allow women the right to own property and vote.

[pfamilygal]

Muslim here, and :iagree:

 

 

 

Actually there is a level of hijab {modesty} prescribed for both men and women in Islam. Men are to be covered from the navel to the knee at all times. Women are to cover all but their face, hands, and feet when around non-related males but the interpretation of that is up to each individual woman. It is not prescribed per say for women to cover their faces, BUT some do because the wives of Muhammad did so. FWIW When just around women the covering is from navel to knee, the same as for men.

 

 

 

As to the bolded comment - FWIW, in the Quran BOTH men and women are directed to lower their gaze and guard their modesty. Both the Bible and the Torah also instruct women to cover themselves as well.

 

As to the Italicized comment - it is CULTURAL NOT RELIGIOUS. There is a fine line {that often gets confused} as to cultural practices in Islam and Arabic countries vs. actual real Islamic practices as discussed in the Quran and Hadiths. Many of the practices like the lack of women's right are purely cultural but done in the name of "religion". Islam actually gave women a lot more rights historically than many Islamic countries give them now, including being the first nation to allow women the right to own property and vote.

 

I'm sorry if I offended folks. I was not intending to hurt people. However, I am not lying. If you show up to work in a niqab, your students will see a black sheet and your eyes. That is a fact. Yes, there is a person under the swaths of clothing, but that is not what the students will see. I don't see how this is horrid.

[Mergath]

On various levels already mentioned, I would definitely have a problem with someone teaching in a public classroom wearing a niqab. I agree with Germany's view, basically. I get so tired of how we bend over backwards to accommodate other cultures!

 

I don't see how not freaking out over the way a person chooses to dress is "bending over backwards to accomodate other cultures." Women in parts of New Guinea wear nothing more than a grass skirt with their breasts on full display, and the men wear even less. If you traveled there and were going to live with them for an extended period of time for whatever reason, would you really consider it such a big deal for them to accept your Western clothing? Would you feel comfortable walking around in nothing more than a few dried leaves? The reasons involved are essentially the same- women in the US wear shirts because they are (in part) sexual objects, and because it's inappropriate to walk around with them hanging out. If a woman is raised in a society or religion that dictates she cover her face for the same reason, I'm not going to try to tell her she can't. I wouldn't do it myself, but I'm not going to freak out over her personal choice, either.

 

I think that, for the people who have such a big problem with women wearing a niqab, there's a certain amount of ethnocentrism going on.

[Rosie_0801]

So, do we have any HiveMoms who wear a niqab?

 

 

Now you know Amirah does. Why do you ask?

 

I don't know that students would see a black sheet and a pair of eyes. When I look at a niqab I see a bit of cloth the size of a hanky, not a sheet.

 

 

Rosie

[pfamilygal]

I don't see how not freaking out over the way a person chooses to dress is "bending over backwards to accomodate other cultures." Women in parts of New Guinea wear nothing more than a grass skirt with their breasts on full display, and the men wear even less. If you traveled there and were going to live with them for an extended period of time for whatever reason, would you really consider it such a big deal for them to accept your Western clothing? Would you feel comfortable walking around in nothing more than a few dried leaves? The reasons involved are essentially the same- women in the US wear shirts because they are (in part) sexual objects, and because it's inappropriate to walk around with them hanging out. If a woman is raised in a society or religion that dictates she cover her face for the same reason, I'm not going to try to tell her she can't. I wouldn't do it myself, but I'm not going to freak out over her personal choice, either.

 

I think that, for the people who have such a big problem with women wearing a niqab, there's a certain amount of ethnocentrism going on.

 

I don't think it's whether she can or cannot wear it. I think it is more a question of "does it impair communication with students" and "does it send a cultural message about women that is incompatible with American values"?

[Amirah]

I'm sorry if I offended folks. I was not intending to hurt people. However, I am not lying. If you show up to work in a niqab, your students will see a black sheet and your eyes. That is a fact. Yes, there is a person under the swaths of clothing, but that is not what the students will see. I don't see how this is horrid.

 

i wear niqab and i said i wasn't going to post but.. i was offended by what you said i am not a black sheet with eyes. and when i was student teaching none of my 1st graders thought i was a black sheet with eyes. they had no issues with me what so ever other than asking why. i told them it was my religious belief and that was the end of the conversation. i never even covered unless we were at recess for the most part and they didn't care they were more concerned with me playing with them

[pfamilygal]

Now you know Amirah does. Why do you ask?

 

Rosie

 

I just wondered if they could explain the significance of it.