Work innapropriateness: sexual harrassment/violence. Discussion

[Plucky]

Thanks everyone! I enjoyed discussing it.

Edited February 29, 2012 by True Blue

[nono]

I don't see where race or gender have anything to do with this. It is unacceptable to alter another's appearance without permission! Esp. on the job...

 

Um, instead of "playing," how 'bout working for the paycheck you are earning?

[Impish]

I don't see where race or gender have anything to do with this. It is unacceptable to alter another's appearance without permission! Esp. on the job...

 

Um, instead of "playing," how 'bout working for the paycheck you are earning?

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Plucky]

I don't see where race or gender have anything to do with this. It is unacceptable to alter another's appearance without permission! Esp. on the job...

 

Um, instead of "playing," how 'bout working for the paycheck you are earning?

 

I believe it was the end of the day before leaving. I agree though. The only reason I mentioned race or gender is that it was phrased as sexual harassment/workplace violence. They may have also felt more vulnerable legally.

[Plucky]

Cut her hair? :confused: What the heck, I would have been upset, but I can imagine laughing (out of shock and not knowing how else to react).

 

Me, too. Men may not understand that we laugh that way. So some of the men at work are confused. "She laughed, so she was playing, too." My dh gets it, as we talked about it. But he is not interested in analyzing it like me. :001_smile:

[curlylocks]

The only question I have is why didn't they both get fired?

[JumpyTheFrog]

In my business law course we learned that the cival (not criminal) definition of battery is any unwanted touch by a person of something he or she is holding. No injury needs to occur. I wouldn't be surprised if this incident could count as battery.

 

In another section of the book, we learned about how a business may be held liable in a lawsuit if they retain violent employees. The company probably fired him to protect themselves. If they kept him and he acted out again in the future, they would likely lose in a lawsuit.

Edited February 29, 2012 by HoppyTheToad

[JennyD]

A senior executive cut a secretary's hair in "play"? Holy cow. Buh-bye.

[Plucky]

A senior executive cut a secretary's hair in "play"? Holy cow. Buh-bye.

 

Not a senior executive. A salesman with 30 years seniority. He was not her superior in any way.

[Plucky]

In my business law course we learned that the cival (not criminal) definition of battery is any unwanted touch by a person of somethine he or she is holding. No injury needs to occur.

 

In another section, we learned about how a business may be held liable in a lawsuit if they retain violet employees. The company probably fired him to protect themselves. If they kept him and he acted out again in the future, it could be held against them.

 

Exactly. Thanks for sharing that. I don't know a lot about the law, but hopefully enough not to cut someone's hair. Sheesh.

[T'smom]

I don't see where race or gender have anything to do with this. It is unacceptable to alter another's appearance without permission! Esp. on the job...

 

Um, instead of "playing," how 'bout working for the paycheck you are earning?

 

:iagree: Though I guess gender has something to do with it because it's being called "sexual" harassment. I don't know what else was involved in the "playing" but I would be pursuing something (either legally or with human resources) against a person of either gender who had the nerve to cut my hair!!!!

[Plucky]

The only question I have is why didn't they both get fired?

 

Why should she be fired?

[JumpyTheFrog]

Exactly. Thanks for sharing that. I don't know a lot about the law, but hopefully enough not to cut someone's hair. Sheesh.

 

The course has been very interesting. I think I am getting a lot more out of it as a "real" adult that I would have had I taken it at 18.

[JennyD]

Not a senior executive. A salesman with 30 years seniority. He was not her superior in any way.

 

Oh, that's good. The legal department must be relieved about that, at least. Still, there's no way you could keep that guy around.

[Catwoman]

OK, this guy and a secretary were kidding around in the office and things got rowdy,he cut her hair, and she laughed about it.

 

Where exactly is the sexual harassment? Where is the work violence? (If he'd been angry with her and attacked her with the scissors, it would be a different story, but it sounds more like they were joking around and he may have cut her hair by accident.)

 

I know my opinion may not be popular, but it sounds to me like this woman may be gunning for this man -- and the haircutting thing is just an excuse to either get him fired or to sue the company for some quick cash.

[JennyD]

Not a senior executive. A salesman with 30 years seniority. He was not her superior in any way.

 

Oh, that's good. The legal department must be relieved about that, at least. Still, there's no way the company could keep that guy around.

[Plucky]

OK, this guy and a secretary were kidding around in the office and things got rowdy,he cut her hair, and she laughed about it.

 

Where exactly is the sexual harassment? Where is the work violence? (If he'd been angry with her and attacked her with the scissors, it would be a different story, but it sounds more like they were joking around and he may have cut her hair by accident.)

 

I know my opinion may not be popular, but it sounds to me like this woman may be gunning for this man -- and the haircutting thing is just an excuse to either get him fired or to sue the company for some quick cash.

 

That is what I thought at first, but then I really thought about how I would feel. It is just so not acceptable to cut someone's hair. That is crossing a boundary that is completely unacceptable. Like I said, if my own dh did it to me I'd be ticked.

[Plucky]

Oh, that's good. The legal department must be relieved about that, at least. Still, there's no way the company could keep that guy around.

 

Yeah. I do feel bad for the guy. I don't believe he is a bad guy. I think he made a bad decision. A big one.

[Plucky]

Interesting. What is it about salespeople? I know I'm making a total generalization here, but they are the rowdiest bunch at any job I've had (or DH has had) where there was a sales department. DH often goes to the company social events and the few others that tend to go regularly are the sales guys and some of the stories my husband tells me about them!

 

Maybe they are used to pushing boundaries a little more? I know that some salespeople can really push it to get a sale. I'm not bashing all sales people either. My dh has been one. He was lousy at it though. LOL

[curlylocks]

Why should she be fired?

 

Preface: This probably isn't going to be popular...

 

 

 

 

They were both stealing the company's time/resources? ("playing" when they should have been WORKING)

[Catwoman]

That is what I thought at first, but then I really thought about how I would feel. It is just so not acceptable to cut someone's hair. That is crossing a boundary that is completely unacceptable. Like I said, if my own dh did it to me I'd be ticked.

 

Sure, you'd be angry. But angry enough to get someone fired on the grounds of sexual harassment/workplace violence?

 

I would have been annoyed, but if it had happened while we were kidding around and it wasn't done as a result of an argument or in any kind of anger, I certainly wouldn't have filed a complaint against the guy and tried to get him fired for it. As I understand it, he wasn't trying to beat her up or r*pe her; they were joking around. So her accusations/charges against him aren't flying with me.

 

I think there's a lot more to this story than we know.

[Aelwydd]

I tend to agree with you, True. Mostly because there have been a few times in my experience when I felt somewhat uncomfortable, even threatened, and used laughter as a defense mechanism. Sort of a, haha, yeah, we're just playing, let's not get serious here, because I'm totally out of my league if he presses his advantage. I used it to diffuse the situation, until I could put enough distance between me and the other person.

[elegantlion]

I would consider it assault more than sexual harrassment, unless he made some comment. What exactly does "rowdy" mean?

 

By 60 I would say a man should know to keep his hands to himself, especially with a sharp object at hand.

 

When I worked for a large company we had to go through sexual harassment training. There was one guy that was a huge flirt. He was harmless and everyone liked him, but he'd make comments. This was back in the days of hose and heels for women in the workplace, early 90s. After the training he never said another word and ended up getting a good promotion. If someone has been though training, and it's pretty standard now isn't it?, then they should know better.

 

I agree, sounds like there is more to this story.

[curlylocks]

My husband also works long hours (on salary) -- but I can tell you he isn't "playing" with a secretary while "on the clock".

 

Instead he is asked to fix the his boss' computer. (The hard drive is trash because the boss has been visiting p*rn sites.)

 

It's a matter of work ethic (or lack thereof) that makes situations like the OP describe WRONG.

[Catwoman]

It's hard to say. It seems pretty crazy that someone could accidentally cut someone's hair.

 

It does seem kind of odd, but we don't know what they were joking about.

 

The thing I keep coming back to, is that they were playing around, not arguing. And this guy wasn't her boss; he was just a co-worker.

[Catwoman]

I don't see goofing around briefly with a coworker (so long as it isn't outrageous and mutual) as stealing company time. Geesh, why are people so darn serious. My husband works zillions of hours (on salary) and he isn't ever able to do anything but work like a machine because otherwise it's stealing company time?

 

Doesn't make life worth living if you ask me. :glare:

 

:iagree:

 

I may be opening a big ol' can of worms here, but does anyone actually work for the entire day, without ever taking a few minutes to chat with a co-worker or check Amazon for something, or just to relax for a bit?

 

Aside from the fact that the OP said that the incident happened at the end of the day, I can't imagine that anyone would be upset by the idea that a couple of co-workers were kidding around a little bit during the day. (Obviously, in this case, it got out of hand, but I mean this in general terms.)

 

But then again, I was one of the few people on another recent thread who admitted that I didn't always read all of the books for my school classes, so everyone already knows I'm Evil... :tongue_smilie:

[Coffeetime]

It's hard to say. It seems pretty crazy that someone could accidentally cut someone's hair.

:iagree:

I'm trying to figure out what the heck kind of "playing" could have been going on between two adults, that would result in someone's hair getting cut?!? :confused:

It's a bit disturbing, to say the least. I think there's definitely more to the story.

[curlylocks]

There is a big difference between cracking a couple of jokes or goofing around for a minute than spending lots of time downloading porn.

 

Although, again, how does one accidentally cut someone's hair?

 

But....a charge of sexual harrassment would suggest there is more to the story than just cracking a couple of jokes/goofing around, right?

 

It only takes ONE quick visit to a p*rn website to infect a computer... ;)

 

Let me ask you this: if you hire a contractor and he completes the job before anticipated and spends the last 1/2 hour or so checking his phone, goofing around, etc. would you still expect to pay him for that time?

[Plucky]

Sure, you'd be angry. But angry enough to get someone fired on the grounds of sexual harassment/workplace violence?

 

I would have been annoyed, but if it had happened while we were kidding around and it wasn't done as a result of an argument or in any kind of anger, I certainly wouldn't have filed a complaint against the guy and tried to get him fired for it. As I understand it, he wasn't trying to beat her up or r*pe her; they were joking around. So her accusations/charges against him aren't flying with me.

 

I think there's a lot more to this story than we know.

 

I am sure there is more to the story. Keep in mind I am getting this from my dh. He is not a big gossip so he's usually the last to know. This has more than likely been filtered through a lot of men since this is a male dominated company. If it was altered through the men that they were just playing, I can still see the problem of cutting hair.

 

It's too bad. My dh liked the guy, said he was a good guy. I just wanted discussion on the story as told to me. Even filtered through the ranks I can see why he'd be fired, even if it was just for legal reasons.

[Scarlett]

I don't see goofing around briefly with a coworker (so long as it isn't outrageous and mutual) as stealing company time. Geesh, why are people so darn serious. My husband works zillions of hours (on salary) and he isn't ever able to do anything but work like a machine because otherwise it's stealing company time?

 

Doesn't make life worth living if you ask me. :glare:

 

:iagree:

[Plucky]

I tend to agree with you, True. Mostly because there have been a few times in my experience when I felt somewhat uncomfortable, even threatened, and used laughter as a defense mechanism. Sort of a, haha, yeah, we're just playing, let's not get serious here, because I'm totally out of my league if he presses his advantage. I used it to diffuse the situation, until I could put enough distance between me and the other person.

 

Exactly. It's the fight or flight and when you are dealing with a man or an uncomfortable situation a laugh can get you out of it.

 

I don't think men know this though. Because they don't generally do this. Or do they?

[Plucky]

You want to talk evil and maybe even unethical? In college I once used the same paper I wrote for three different classes. Hey, I worked a lot so sometimes I had to get creative. It's pretty hard to work 40 hours, go to school full time, and find yourself with three 25 page papers due at the same time. I tweaked them a bit to fit the requirements, but it was essentially the same paper.

 

I'm going to hell anyway so really I don't care.

 

Wait, why is that wrong? You wrote it and tweaked it. My ds told me it was considered plagiarism. I don't see why.

[LostSurprise]

I would be annoyed if someone cut my hair, but its almost a whole other thing in the black community.

 

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my 4 year college roommate indoctrinated me. I would never touch a AA woman's head without permission. Hair is a major deal.

[Scarlett]

And how MUCH of her hair did he cut?

 

I have long hair. If someone was goofing around and snipped a 1/4 inch off a few strands of my hair...it might irritate me but certainly wouldn't make me want to get someone fired! MUCH LESS file sexual harrassment charges.

 

Then again if someone RUINED my long hair with the cut job I might be mad enough to sue them in civil court!

 

I figure there is a more to the story.

 

And her laughing means nothing to me....woman put up with junk all of the time an if they don't they are labled prudes.

[MomatHWTK]

With all the in-house classes, instruction, warnings and new stories on the topic, any employee should know that playing around by itself can get you fired if the other person later complains. They should definitely know that cutting someone's hair would be out of line.

 

Right or wrong on both parties' part, it's a 'should have known better' situation.

[Catwoman]

Let me ask you this: if you hire a contractor and he completes the job before anticipated and spends the last 1/2 hour or so checking his phone, goofing around, etc. would you still expect to pay him for that time?

 

We always do. I don't think we've ever had a contractor who worked constantly, without stopping to chat or answer his phone or whatever. I wouldn't make a big deal out of 30 minutes over the course of a day.

[curlylocks]

I'm sure I've paid people for goofing around part of the time. If it helps them do the job better I'm all for it. I prefer flat fees for certain types of work though. We hired some guys to fix our roof for a flat fee. They smoked, laughed, and cracked jokes. They did the job I paid for.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that goofing around helps anyone do a job better.

 

We always do. I don't think we've ever had a contractor who worked constantly, without stopping to chat or answer his phone or whatever. I wouldn't make a big deal out of 30 minutes over the course of a day.

 

I would expect a contractor to take a break or two throughout the day and a lunch break....but not a half hour at the end of the day when the work is done. I certainly wouldn't expect to pay him for that time.

[Mrs Mungo]

I figure there is a more to the story.

 

And her laughing means nothing to me....woman put up with junk all of the time an if they don't they are labled prudes.

 

:iagree: Sounds like his side of the story has filtered through the ranks. She probably isn't allowed to tell her side, if there is an ongoing investigation.

 

With all the in-house classes, instruction, warnings and new stories on the topic, any employee should know that playing around by itself can get you fired if the other person later complains. They should definitely know that cutting someone's hair would be out of line.

 

I agree with this too.

 

Right or wrong on both parties' part, it's a 'should have known better' situation.

 

But, maybe not this. Hard to say whether both parties were in the wrong, given what we know.

[mlbuchina]

My dh goes out of his way to avoid the women he works around. It is safer that way.

[curlylocks]

See your example doesn't feel the same as mine. If he is done, to extend that by doing something not work related at the end feels like fishing for more money (or carelessness). Little breaks here or there seem normal/natural to me.

 

So I do agree with what you are saying about your example.

 

The OP stated that this happened at the end of the day...see post #5 as she asked not to be quoted.

 

So, if that's true, he shouldn't be wasting the company's time...find something to do or go home. It's that simple...

[curlylocks]

My dh goes out of his way to avoid the women he works around. It is safer that way.

 

Smart man... :) Really there's no reason for this type of stuff to be going on during the work day...or any time for that matter.

[Catwoman]

The OP stated that this happened at the end of the day...see post #5 as she asked not to be quoted.

 

So, if that's true, he shouldn't be wasting the company's time...find something to do or go home. It's that simple...

 

Wow, you're strict.

 

If I'd ever worked for you, you would have fired me. :D

[LizzyBee]

A couple of thoughts:

 

If you got an accurate version of the story, I don't think what happened was sexual harassment. Sure, women might use laughter to cover their nervousness, but if a woman is laughing and playing along, how can she turn around and say she was harassed. If she says no or stop or just doesn't laugh at a guy's antics to send a message that she's not amused, but the guy continues on anyway, that's harassment.

 

OTOH, I too wonder if there's more to the story. It's creepy and weird to cut another person's hair, regardless of gender. I think I'd freak out and start yelling at anyone who did that to me, and I'm generally a person who tries to get along with everyone and avoid conflict.

 

Millions of people work in small companies that don't have sensitivity or sexual harassment training. I wouldn't assume the salesman had that sort of training unless the employer is a largish company.

[Plucky]

Well I do have to agree that haircuts shouldn't take place during company time. :D

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[staceyobu]

I'm pretty sure my four year old knows you don't cut someone else's hair. If he did it to a friend, I'd be livid. And he's FOUR! An adult? No excuse.

[Plucky]

A couple of thoughts:

 

If you got an accurate version of the story, I don't think what happened was sexual harassment. Sure, women might use laughter to cover their nervousness, but if a woman is laughing and playing along, how can she turn around and say she was harassed. If she says no or stop or just doesn't laugh at a guy's antics to send a message that she's not amused, but the guy continues on anyway, that's harassment.

 

OTOH, I too wonder if there's more to the story. It's creepy and weird to cut another person's hair, regardless of gender. I think I'd freak out and start yelling at anyone who did that to me, and I'm generally a person who tries to get along with everyone and avoid conflict.

 

Millions of people work in small companies that don't have sensitivity or sexual harassment training. I wouldn't assume the salesman had that sort of training unless the employer is a largish company.

 

I do believe that the story has been filtered to benefit the man that was fired. But even with the filtering I can see how he is in the wrong.

 

I don't think we will ever know. It is so important for people to heed those sensitivity trainings. Yeah they may seem silly but they are there for everyone's protection.

[Catwoman]

Well I do have to agree that haircuts shouldn't take place during company time. :D

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I agree. Manicures are one thing, but haircuts? No. Way. ;)

[Plucky]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I agree. Manicures are one thing, but haircuts? No. Way. ;)

 

I want to work where they give foot massages (by professionals that I don't work with).

[curlylocks]

Wow, you're strict.

 

If I'd ever worked for you, you would have fired me. :D

 

Honestly...this was the protocol/atmosphere at the well-known bank where I worked for over 15 years. The majority of those years I spent in management...

 

I never fired anyone...but I did have to "write up" a few people.

[LizzyBee]

The OP stated that this happened at the end of the day...see post #5 as she asked not to be quoted.

 

So, if that's true, he shouldn't be wasting the company's time...find something to do or go home. It's that simple...

 

Wow, lots of people socialize a bit at the end of the day before they head out the door. If they're hourly, they've probably already clocked out. Creating an enjoyable workplace can be a major factor in retaining good people. The idea of having no social interaction associated with my job would make going to work a bleak and miserable prospect. In fact, just this week, a couple of us got together to plan a short 50th birthday party *during work hours* for one of our managers. The partners brought me money today toward her gift and they are fine with having the party during work hours, because they know that creating bonds among co-workers leads to more satisfied, more productive employees who will genuinely work together as a team, leading to happy clients who refer more business to us.