Are you optimistic about the future of the US?

[mommylawyer]

Ha! Good point!

 

But, I have to admit, it does give me some comfort to know that Stimulus check is sitting in my savings account to help pad things if the well starts to run dry...

[Marie in Oh]

I think we are all a bunch of wimps who need stimulus checks to make us feel better. If our great grandparents and grandparents can survive the depression or the dust bowl period without any kind of stimulus package why can't we?

 

 

I mean where is our Yankee spirit, our old South pluck, our pioneer determination? We are a wimpy nation, but most of us come from strong stock.

[TXMomof4]

I think we are all a bunch of wimps who need stimulus checks to make us feel better. If our great grandparents and grandparents can survive the depression or the dust bowl period without any kind of stimulus package why can't we?

 

 

I mean where is our Yankee spirit, our old South pluck, our pioneer determination? We are a wimpy nation, but most of us come from strong stock.

 

I read an article a while ago about the genetics of Americans being responsible for the willingness to survive and succeed in the last 200 years. All of the explorer, adventurer, risk-taking types in Europe, Asia, etc. came to America to try their hand - either founding a country, or just taking the risk necessary to improve their lives. Thus, many of those countries lost a large percentage of the population that would have kept the British Empire on top of the world, kept the Spanish conquistadors searching, etc. That "pioneer spirit" was exported to America and the article stated that that was why America was able to grow so quickly into a world power.

 

It was very interesting, I'll see if I can find it. Just thought it interesting in reference to your comment about "strong stock".

[Renee in NC]

The stimulus payments weren't for us - they were for the economy. We don't *need* them and it wasn't some sort of welfare handout. The idea is to prevent the Great Depression from happening again.

 

BUT, I thought it was stupid anyway. The only effect it seems to be having is to make politicians look good.

[Soph the vet]

I've read through this entire thread... I'm sitting here shaking my head. I'm torn between wanting to slap around those that think somehow this is all a God mandated end-times festival and slapping silly those that think everything is just rosy. It's neither.

 

I don't think threatening physical violence is a way to get your point across. None of us need "slapping" thank you.

 

First off, oil. It's not the biggest problem we have by a long shot. It's just the most immediate to a lot of people. $5.00 a gallon gas is nothing compared to what most people in Europe already pay. And it's nothing compared to what we're going to pay. Everyone wants to live like an American. Only we can't afford a planet where everyone lives like an American. Heck, we can't afford a planet were all Americans live like Americans. But China and India are going to give it a shot anyway. They're going to start buying oil like crazy... and that's going to drive the price up, up, up. Then the dollar is starting to go down, down, down. Which makes the price seem like it's even more ridiculous. Since it's a global market, all oil sells for the same price whether it's drilled out of the ground here or in Indonesia. It wouldn't much matter how much oil we're sitting upon... unless we withdraw from that global marketplace and I don't see the oil companies doing that... do you?

 

I actually agree with some of this. Weak dollar and inadequate supply are contributing to the high gas prices, etc. But increasing supply by drilling should result in lower prices, especially if it is domestic. Basic economics.

 

Next, US dominance in the world... we're only as dominant as the world lets us be. Something George W. Bush had rudely shoved in his face. When everyone wants something from you, you're in charge. When they tell you to take a hike... you're the idiot in the corner. Then your only option is to kick their butt or shut up and go home. Bush tried to kick some butt in Iraq... didn't work. Now we're looked at as a bunch of ignorant fools. Way to go W.

 

Yep, it's all W's fault. Congress had nothing to do with it, declaring war and all that. Funny how we can blame one man for all of it. We need to get off the "we should never have gone into Iraq" bandwagon because WE ARE THERE and we need to end this thing the right way. Nobody wants war. The surge is working, US deaths are the lowest since May of 2003 and we need to leave this hotbed secure in the Iraqi government's hands, not in the hands of Iran or their funded terrorist groups.

 

About the comparison to the Roman empire. Something to be thought about. The Roman empire was pretty wimpy until it became a dictatorship. When the Caesars came along and started kicking butts and taking names, then the Romans became a world dominating power. You either bowed to their might or you were made to bow to their might. Before that they were just like us. They couldn't argue their way out of a paper bag. And don't think there aren't people who know this analogy and wouldn't have liked to proclaim W. emperor. 9/11 was the perfect excuse. We had people practically begging for it. Terrorism everywhere, the evil needs to be stamped out!

 

Are you saying there is no terrorism we need to be concerned about? Or do you think you can talk terrorists out of their agenda?

 

Next... end times. Whoo boy. It just frightens me that New York or some other city could go up in a nuclear fireball and about 30% of the population would look at that event and practically cheer because to them that would mean Jesus is just that much closer to appearing. Of course, he wouldn't show up, just as he didn't show up after 9/11. You can believe your deity is in charge of all this... but please don't abdicate your responsibility to the rest of us to do what you can to make this place livable while you're here.

 

True followers of Jesus do not "cheer" when people die. They see it as a tragedy. How did a question about optimism in the US lead you to attack Christians once again? Just curious. I don't give out negative rep, period. But I will publicly call you out on this one, Phred. Just because you have no belief in a "deity" does not excuse you from civil debate.

As far as "abdicating responsibility" that is a laughable attack as Christians and other people of faith give more to charity, build more hospitals, fund more schools, strive to wipe out more poverty, yada yada yada. You would be shocked if you really did investigate faith-based contribution to our society (I recommend D. James Kennedy's "What if Jesus Had Never Been Born?) for an overview of this topic.

[Karen sn]

It is my opinion that as each economic woe hits us, the people will turn to the government for help and many will unfortunately not see that this is how we lose our freedoms, one at a time...ultimately leading to the end.

 

TOTALLY MY OPINION ONLY....:001_smile: Please don't throw darts.

 

yes.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

[Karen sn]

n

[Karen sn]

Right... but what many Christians don't seem to get is that the conditions which proceed His Coming will be manufactured by men. All that we are presently seeing is PLANNED. There are no accidents.

 

Never forget: Order out of Chaos.

 

That's what we are seeing. Created chaos so that the solutions can be imposed upon us.

 

I've pretty much gotten to the point where I sound like a broken record on this and I know I sound like a nut. But, God is waking some of us up. I don't even care about my reputation anymore. America is already gone folks... I'm sorry, but it's true.

 

So, I guess you could say I'm pessimistic (I prefer to think informed and realistic) about the future of America. I believe we will see more disasters (and, I don't blame those on God), more economic troubles, more food issues, more discord, anxiety, and eventually, a revolution. When we get to that point, they (they being the world governors - yes, we have those) will impose their solution. But, the important thing to know is that this is not God doing this to us. This is not His judgement on us (His judgement is coming, but this isn't it) which is what so many say. God isn't doing this. This is man-made.

 

And, we can't be provoked to revolution... we have to look up with expectation of deliverance. We have to live as pilgrims in this land. It's very important that we seek to live peacefully because civil unrest is the last stage of the plan and that's what will result in the solution.

 

I have never ever repped anyone on this board. If I were going to - it would be this post and I would want to give you all of them! This is awesome.

 

I would love to sit down with you and my best friend (christian like yourself) and have a philosophical discusion on everything. I am not a Christian (do love Jesus though) and her and I can talk religion, politics, earth, science, food...... and learn so much from each other. The only thing we see completely the same on is food. We strive to feed our kids the best, realizing all the while we live in a Monsanto world. Don't let me get started on that.....all the bats with the white fungus growing out of their noses, children with razor sharp fungal and bacterial strands protruding from their skin.......

 

I digress.

 

Anyway - love the way you articulate your point of view.

 

Completely agree with everything you said.

[Kelli in TN]

Not optimistic. But probably not what most would consider doom and gloom. In fact, I would bet that many of the people on this board would be happy if what I think is going to happen actually comes to be. I think we are looking at becoming a much more socialist society than we already are. That is pessimistic thinking as far as I'm concerned, but I know not everyone agrees. :)

 

I'm not worried about needing to be able to grow all my own food or to be able to barter for it, but I do think we have peaked as a society/economy.

 

Amy, I don't like James Kuntsler's picture (in World Made by Hand) of the future. But I like yours even less. Unfortunately, I think your picture of the future might be more accurate.

 

I can't grow my family's food on my 3/4 of an acre, heavily shaded yard. Where am I going if it all falls apart? I'm getting in the bread line like everyone else. Even if I had the land, I lack the know-how and physical stamina for that life. Everyone I know lacks the know-how and physical stamina for that life. The good news is we will be able to spend lots of time remembering the old days while we stand together in the bread line.

 

I would rather it go the way James Kuntsler's artice (linked in the OP) suggests, but I think we will end up selling our soul to the company store and the boss of the company store will just so happen to reside in the White House.

 

I do think socialism will increase and personal freedom will decrease until we don't recognize ourselves as Americans.

[Michelle in GA]

Tough times are ahead indeed! On the upside, as I have grown more disenchanted with this country and the basic state of the world in general, it has confirmed the fact that governments set up by man will always crumble(as history has certainly shown), and that there is only hope and peace in the Lord, who is in control of all.

[Robin in Tx]

America is already gone folks... I'm sorry, but it's true.

 

Gone in what way? Sincere question here... exactly what does this mean? Gone? Gone, as in it is getting ready to collapse like the Soviet Union? Gone, as in another country is getting ready to conquer us? What do you mean by gone?

 

Another general comment - I've been heaing the comparison to the fall of the Roman Empire for decades now. I heard this theory back in college (and I think I went to college before some of you were ever born! LOL). They've been saying this for years and years and years.

[Amy loves Bud]

Yep. We'll be in the breadline talking, no whispering, about what it was like back in the day when we actually had some personal freedom.

[Renee in NC]

Amy, I don't like James Kuntsler's picture (in World Made by Hand) of the future. But I like yours even less. Unfortunately, I think your picture of the future might be more accurate.

 

I can't grow my family's food on my 3/4 of an acre, heavily shaded yard. Where am I going if it all falls apart? I'm getting in the bread line like everyone else. Even if I had the land, I lack the know-how and physical stamina for that life. Everyone I know lacks the know-how and physical stamina for that life. The good news is we will be able to spend lots of time remembering the old days while we stand together in the bread line.

 

I would rather it go the way James Kuntsler's artice (linked in the OP) suggests, but I think we will end up selling our soul to the company store and the boss of the company store will just so happen to reside in the White House.

 

I do think socialism will increase and personal freedom will decrease until we don't recognize ourselves as Americans.

 

 

I think you sell us all short, Kelli. Hunger is a GREAT motivator. Growing food is not rocket science (and not everyone would need to grow their own in this scenario.) Do you really think you will just roll over and die? And where would the gov't get the money to offer that bread line? There aren't many breadlines in Ethiopia, ya know!:D

[Kelli in TN]

I think you sell us all short, Kelli. Hunger is a GREAT motivator. Growing food is not rocket science (and not everyone would need to grow their own in this scenario.) Do you really think you will just roll over and die? And where would the gov't get the money to offer that bread line? There aren't many breadlines in Ethiopia, ya know!:D

 

We already have quite a few people living on the dole. In fact we have families in which living off the government is a tradition handed down from generation to generation. And even among the middle class I hear murmerings like "I pay my taxes. When am I going to get my 'fair share' of the government pot?"

 

The attitude is there. All we need is the right combination of national tragedy, big government and voila!!! We're trapped. We've been grooming the population for this since the New Deal. The New Deal was supposed to be a temporary boost, not a way of life.

 

I don't think the comparison to Ethiopia fits. They are a different culture and a different government. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I'm tired of hearing about people slapping other people around for daring to disagree.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I do! There's always hope. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't be working so hard to teach my dc to use their gifts and abilities not just for themselves, but, for others. As long as there are people out there who have that mindset, there's hope.

 

I look at our country and I compare it to what I'm experiencing now, and I realize we come from an amazing place. There are alot of countries that don't have the amount of promise that America does. I really believe that. Things are a struggle right now (or at least they appear to be), but, it could be growing pains. Sometimes we have to go through things to come out the other end more mature and able to handle our blessings with more responsibility and compassion.

 

When I see on the news how people run to help those who are in need (hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, wild fires, etc.) it gives me hope that we are not too far gone. That doesn't happen everywhere. I live in a place that people are in a constant state of survival. They really don't have the ability to see others in need and to meet that need. They are just trying to make it from one meal to the next or one job to the next. When a disaster happens, all they can think is, "Thank God it didn't happen to me." They don't think about helping out others. We still do. That's hope.

 

Just my opinion, fwiw.:001_smile:

[Renee in NC]

We already have quite a few people living on the dole. In fact we have families in which living off the government is a tradition handed down from generation to generation. And even among the middle class I hear murmerings like "I pay my taxes. When am I going to get my 'fair share' of the government pot?"

 

The attitude is there. All we need is the right combination of national tragedy, big government and voila!!! We're trapped. We've been grooming the population for this since the New Deal. The New Deal was supposed to be a temporary boost, not a way of life.

 

I don't think the comparison to Ethiopia fits. They are a different culture and a different government. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

 

I was thinking in terms of another Great Depression or some other tragedy in which it would necessitate you growing your own food on your shady, 3/4 acre lot.:D My point with Ethiopia is that if we ever get to the grow-food-or-starve-stage, there won't be any funds in the gov't to fund that bread line because there won't be anyone with revenue to tax. I was being light-hearted about your ascertation that you couldn't survive.:tongue_smilie:

[Amy loves Bud]

I think it was just a figure of speech. :confused: I really don't think Phred is going to literally slap anyone.

[Heather in the Kootenays]

I'm sure it was a figure of speech. It's one I don't deal with since I see too much of it in real life.

[Jenny in Atl]

:lurk5:

 

Nothing to add... just a great thread to read.

[Phred]

I don't think threatening physical violence is a way to get your point across. None of us need "slapping" thank you.

Oh fer... yeah, I'm really gonna slap someone... figure of speech, literary license, knock some sense into someone... comon...

 

I actually agree with some of this. Weak dollar and inadequate supply are contributing to the high gas prices, etc. But increasing supply by drilling should result in lower prices, especially if it is domestic. Basic economics.

That's great. Drilling where? And once you drill, refining where? We're at capacity as it is. Hopefully the new finds in the gulf will help but they're right up against Mexico's border. The oil sands in Canada have promise now that the cost of getting the oil out makes sense. But we're still talking about burning oil... which is changing the acidity of our oceans... which is going to end our way of life long before the last drops of Saudi crude dry up.

 

Yep, it's all W's fault. Congress had nothing to do with it, declaring war and all that. Funny how we can blame one man for all of it. We need to get off the "we should never have gone into Iraq" bandwagon because WE ARE THERE and we need to end this thing the right way. Nobody wants war. The surge is working, US deaths are the lowest since May of 2003 and we need to leave this hotbed secure in the Iraqi government's hands, not in the hands of Iran or their funded terrorist groups.

I believe it was W who went to congress to ask them for a resolution that gave him war powers to use if he saw fit. It was then up to him as to whether or not we went to war. No congress in the history of our nation has ever blocked a president's request for those powers. Nor is one likely to do so in the future. Yes, it is W's fault. The Commander in Chief is responsible for getting this nation into war and W is the Commander in Chief. He and his administration cherry picked the intelligence and ignored or fired the people who suggested we hold back. 9/11 was an excuse to go into Iraq which was what they wanted to do from the day they got into office. So yes, it is W's fault. Congress never declared war. And... as Obama says, we need to get out as carefully as we were careless getting in. But we need to get out.

 

Are you saying there is no terrorism we need to be concerned about? Or do you think you can talk terrorists out of their agenda?

Concerned? More people die of choking on food every year than died in the attacks of 9/11. How concerned are you that you'll choke to death? But if you're really concerned about terrorism why in the world would you condone taking the focus off of terrorism and invading Iraq instead of laying the law down in Afghanistan? That's where we should have surged, found and eradicated the terrorists. Then we need to talk to the people who are responsible for creating the terrorists. What makes a man willing to lay down his life and fly a plane into a building? What crazy belief in an afterlife and a reward awaiting him?

 

True followers of Jesus do not "cheer" when people die.

Then I'm worried about the false followers of Jesus who think end times are near and who just can't wait for the rapture they know is coming.

 

They see it as a tragedy. How did a question about optimism in the US lead you to attack Christians once again? Just curious. I don't give out negative rep, period. But I will publicly call you out on this one, Phred. Just because you have no belief in a "deity" does not excuse you from civil debate.

Now... just because you believe that a certain subsection of virtues qualifies you as a True Christian doesn't mean there aren't a whole lot of people out there who think of themselves as True Christians who wouldn't feel exactly as I described. I'd be a lot more optimistic about the US if there weren't a divide created by religion that you can see on a red/blue state map. Then look at the crime statistics for those states... look at the states that execute the most criminals. Look at the states with the highest teen pregnancy rates and the most STDs. Red states. I'm not making it up. I'll go dig up the statistics. The states with the highest concentrations of Born Again Christians are the most dangerous to live in. Right up there with China and Saudi Arabia when it comes to executing prisoners. And that's the direction W. and the GOP wanted to take us. You don't think that fits exactly in with a discussion about optimism about the US? Especially when about a third of the respondents said that they thought Jesus was either involved or coming again soon? I didn't bring it up. They did.

 

As far as "abdicating responsibility" that is a laughable attack as Christians and other people of faith give more to charity, build more hospitals, fund more schools, strive to wipe out more poverty, yada yada yada. You would be shocked if you really did investigate faith-based contribution to our society (I recommend D. James Kennedy's "What if Jesus Had Never Been Born?) for an overview of this topic.

The same D. James Kennedy who claims that evolution is the root of all our problems? I'll pass, thanks.

 

What I meant by abdicating responsibility was more an attack on the Bush administration and their love of all that pollutes as long as it profits.

[GailV]

I think we are all a bunch of wimps who need stimulus checks to make us feel better. If our great grandparents and grandparents can survive the depression or the dust bowl period without any kind of stimulus package why can't we?

 

Yes, OUR grandparents or great grands survived the depression and dust bowl, but plenty of people didn't. Just because Grandma Nancy hightailed it down the bank and withdrew all of her money right before they shut the doors doesn't mean that you and I will happen to be able to do something similar.

 

People died. They starved to death. They succumbed to disease due to malnutrition. And it wasn't necessarily a matter of survival of the fittest.

[Sara R]

Yes, that was the idea--but it's a pretty stupid idea, like you said. If you wanted some kind of greater economic benefit, then you would use that money to invest, not consume. In the 30s government money was invested in better infrastructure. That had the side effect of putting people to work. We still use a lot of that infrastructure today, 70 years later.

 

The side effect of this stimulus payment will be what in 70 years? I bet we won't even be enjoying any fruits of it in a year, let alone 70. It's a shame because our infrastructure really needs updating, especially in a future where oil is a lot more precious than now.

[Kelli in TN]

 

 

Look at the states with the highest teen pregnancy rates and the most STDs. Red states. I'm not making it up. I'll go dig up the statistics. The states with the highest concentrations of Born Again Christians are the most dangerous to live in.

 

 

You are going to share your source for this information, right?

[Soph the vet]

That's great. Drilling where? And once you drill, refining where? We're at capacity as it is.

 

Right. We are at capacity because we are not allowed to build new refineries thanks to environmental regs. The latest US Geological Survey included a find of oil under North Dakota I believe. So that is a possibility. ANWR is also unless you believe environmental propaganda. China is drilling 60 miles off the coast of Florida, why can't we? Unless that is considered Cuba's territory which I doubt.

 

 

I believe it was W who went to congress to ask them for a resolution that gave him war powers to use if he saw fit. It was then up to him as to whether or not we went to war. No congress in the history of our nation has ever blocked a president's request for those powers. Nor is one likely to do so in the future. Yes, it is W's fault. The Commander in Chief is responsible for getting this nation into war and W is the Commander in Chief. He and his administration cherry picked the intelligence and ignored or fired the people who suggested we hold back. 9/11 was an excuse to go into Iraq which was what they wanted to do from the day they got into office. So yes, it is W's fault. Congress never declared war.

 

And Congress didn't realize that when they voted whether to give W. the power that he would actually use it? Did they think he would just say "just checking...I don't really need it right now"?

 

And... as Obama says, we need to get out as carefully as we were careless getting in. But we need to get out.

 

OK, so what is his plan exactly? I would love to see the media make him explain comments like this. If you do have his well laid out plan please share it. I think it is easy to talk and harder to walk.

 

 

Concerned? More people die of choking on food every year than died in the attacks of 9/11. How concerned are you that you'll choke to death? But if you're really concerned about terrorism why in the world would you condone taking the focus off of terrorism and invading Iraq instead of laying the law down in Afghanistan? That's where we should have surged, found and eradicated the terrorists. Then we need to talk to the people who are responsible for creating the terrorists.

First of all, I never condoned going from Afghanistan to Iraq. My point was that we are already there so no use being in denial or wanting to see America defeated. If we're there let's do the best to end it well. You did not answer my question about terrorism. Minimimalizing the lives of people who died on 9/11 with your choking statistic did not address the question. Are you worried that Iraq will be left as a training ground for terrorists or not?

What makes a man willing to lay down his life and fly a plane into a building? What crazy belief in an afterlife and a reward awaiting him?

I can't answer these questions. I believe in Jesus who laid His life down for others, including you, I do not believe in killing others to obtain my reward as the terrorists obviously did.

 

 

Then I'm worried about the false followers of Jesus who think end times are near and who just can't wait for the rapture they know is coming.

This statement did not make sense. Why do you think any followers of Jesus would be happy to see NYC wiped out with a nuke? I still don't get that. Just because people talk about end times does not mean they want to see one life lost. Please enlighten me of the connection here.

 

 

Now... just because you believe that a certain subsection of virtues qualifies you as a True Christian doesn't mean there aren't a whole lot of people out there who think of themselves as True Christians who wouldn't feel exactly as I described. I'd be a lot more optimistic about the US if there weren't a divide created by religion that you can see on a red/blue state map. Then look at the crime statistics for those states... look at the states that execute the most criminals. Look at the states with the highest teen pregnancy rates and the most STDs. Red states. I'm not making it up. I'll go dig up the statistics. The states with the highest concentrations of Born Again Christians are the most dangerous to live in. Right up there with China and Saudi Arabia when it comes to executing prisoners. And that's the direction W. and the GOP wanted to take us. You don't think that fits exactly in with a discussion about optimism about the US? Especially when about a third of the respondents said that they thought Jesus was either involved or coming again soon? I didn't bring it up. They did.

 

First of all, I don't claim any virtue. Jesus Christ is my righteousness, I have none of my own. Second of all, not every born again Christian would appreciate being automatically linked to the GOP, including me. Capital punishment is a separate issue and if you want to start a new thread go ahead and I'll chime in on that then.

[SFP]

According to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregancy, the teen pregnancy rates for girls ages 15-19 were highest in the South and Southwest, with Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico topping the list, followed by Texas, Florida, Mississippi and California (96-128/1000 girls).* The rest of the South (excluding Virginia) had rates of 88-95/1000 girls.

 

*This info came from a state graph, so I can't determine the order Texas, Florida, Mississippi and California should be in.

 

I also found this earlier info:

 

The number of Georgia teenagers per 1,000 who became pregnant in 1992 was the highest in the nation. Of the 10 states with the highest teen pregnancy rates, six are in the South.

1. Georgia 106.9

[*] 2. Nevada 106.0 3. North Carolina 104.6 4. Texas 103.7 5. Arizona 103.6 6. New Mexico 101.8 7. Mississippi 100.8 8. New York 96.6 9. Tennessee 94.010. Alabama 93.2* Number of pregnancies per 1,000 teenage girlsSource: Centers for Disease Control

[Kelli in TN]

According to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregancy, the teen pregnancy rates for girls ages 15-19 were highest in the South and Southwest, with Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico topping the list, followed by Texas, Florida, Mississippi and California (96-128/1000 girls).* The rest of the South (excluding Virginia) had rates of 88-95/1000 girls.

 

*This info came from a state graph, so I can't determine the order Texas, Florida, Mississippi and California should be in.

 

 

 

 

 

I clipped out part of this to save room. I do understand that those states are the highest. I can't see the correlation between teen pregnancy rates and Christianity. :confused: I am not trying to be argumentative, I am truly curious about the connection.

 

I would wonder where those states stand nationally in terms of education, job opportunities, etc. and how those standings relate to teen pregnancy rates.

 

Not trying to argue, just practicing laundry avoidance and making conversation.

[Phred]

You are going to share your source for this information, right?

Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation relates the following:

 

Page 44-45

 

If there were a strong correlation between Christian conservatism and societal health, we might expect to see some sign of it in red-state America. We don't. Of the twenty-five cities with the lowest rates of violent crime, 62 percent are in "blue" states and 38 percent are in "red" states. Of the twenty-five most dangerous cities, 76 percent are in red states, 24 percent in blue states. In fact, three of the five most dangerous cities in the United States are in the pious state of Texas. The twelve states with the highest rates of burglary are red. Twenty-four of the twenty-nine states with the highest rate of theft are red. Of the twenty-two states with the highest rates of murder, seventeen are red.

 

Of the twenty-five: http://www.morganquintno.com/cito6pop.htm#25

three of the five most dangerous: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Of the twenty-two: http://www.itaffectsyou.org/blog/?p=200

[Renee in NC]

Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation relates the following:

 

Page 44-45

 

If there were a strong correlation between Christian conservatism and societal health, we might expect to see some sign of it in red-state America. We don't. Of the twenty-five cities with the lowest rates of violent crime, 62 percent are in "blue" states and 38 percent are in "red" states. Of the twenty-five most dangerous cities, 76 percent are in red states, 24 percent in blue states. In fact, three of the five most dangerous cities in the United States are in the pious state of Texas. The twelve states with the highest rates of burglary are red. Twenty-four of the twenty-nine states with the highest rate of theft are red. Of the twenty-two states with the highest rates of murder, seventeen are red.

 

Of the twenty-five: http://www.morganquintno.com/cito6pop.htm#25

three of the five most dangerous: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Of the twenty-two: http://www.itaffectsyou.org/blog/?p=200

 

What percentage of states are red and what percentage of states are blue? Can you link me to where the idea that red states are Christian and blue states aren't comes from?

 

As far as the teen pregnancy rates - I think it is related to geography less than religion. The south has historically had problems with certain issues. Are these unwed teen mothers? What is a teen mother - under 18 or under 20?

 

None of these statistics are pat.

[Kelli in TN]

Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation relates the following:

 

Page 44-45

 

If there were a strong correlation between Christian conservatism and societal health, we might expect to see some sign of it in red-state America. We don't. Of the twenty-five cities with the lowest rates of violent crime, 62 percent are in "blue" states and 38 percent are in "red" states. Of the twenty-five most dangerous cities, 76 percent are in red states, 24 percent in blue states. In fact, three of the five most dangerous cities in the United States are in the pious state of Texas. The twelve states with the highest rates of burglary are red. Twenty-four of the twenty-nine states with the highest rate of theft are red. Of the twenty-two states with the highest rates of murder, seventeen are red.

 

Okay, thank you. Forgive me if I am just dense, but this looks circumstantial to me. I don't see this making a sound case for their being a connection between Christianity and teen pregnancy. I am wondering if other factors, such as the quality of the schools or poverty might play into this.

[ereks mom]

Honestly, I think things are just going to continue to decline. The Bible talks about things declining as the end times grow nearer....and I think that's the direction that we are headed.

 

It really freaks me out about how bad it could get before the Lord comes back.

 

:iagree:

[johnandtinagilbert]

My dear family and I live on a property where there are 8 apartment units. The people here are suffering; some, b/c they Won't find work; many b/c they Can't find work. They are trying to get gov't assistance and being denied or dragged in loops waiting, waiting, waiting. They have no cars, homes, food, one woman even, no electricity. We have been feeding people every day that live on the property. From what we see, down here in poverty/lower middle class land is hunger, homelessness, drug abuse, domestic violence, divorce, unwed mothers, lack of education. The local food pantries have more people coming in, less people giving, and a have lowered how much they can help.

 

We are struggling as it now takes $91 to fill dh's gas tank and his job requires him to drive all day from home to home. He has lost work b/c clients need to cut back. While we see in the news, how people are struggling b/c they don't have any a/c; we have it, but can't afford to use it.

 

We saw glimpses of this over the past decade, but now, This Is Every Day Life. (in other words, I know it has always been this way, but it is this way for a lot more people now)

 

No, I don't see the future of this great nation to be bright -- no matter who takes office--we are in trouble.

 

There is always hope, but hope without reality...my reality is not pretty... and I live in what appears to be a vibrant city in sunny FL. Looks good on the outside, but inside...not so pretty.

 

I see the Roman Empire too...and I don't like the looks of it.

[Karenciavo]

Of the twenty-five: http://www.morganquintno.com/cito6pop.htm#25

three of the five most dangerous: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Of the twenty-two: http://www.itaffectsyou.org/blog/?p=200

 

None of these links are bringing me to a page that shows the stats you are stating. I have a link from CNN that lists the top ten in 2007 based on analysis from FBI figures and there are no Texan cities included.

[Phred]

Right. We are at capacity because we are not allowed to build new refineries thanks to environmental regs. The latest US Geological Survey included a find of oil under North Dakota I believe. So that is a possibility. ANWR is also unless you believe environmental propaganda. China is drilling 60 miles off the coast of Florida, why can't we? Unless that is considered Cuba's territory which I doubt.

I'd love to see your source for China drilling in US territorial waters.

 

And Congress didn't realize that when they voted whether to give W. the power that he would actually use it? Did they think he would just say "just checking...I don't really need it right now"?

That's not the point now is it?

 

OK, so what is his plan exactly? I would love to see the media make him explain comments like this. If you do have his well laid out plan please share it. I think it is easy to talk and harder to walk.

Let me get this straight... you're criticizing the man who wants to get us out of an ill-conceived and unwarranted war for wanting to do so rather than the man who got us into it in the first place? How about, "Thank god, someone with half a brain! Great, let's figure out the best way and get to doing it!"

 

First of all, I never condoned going from Afghanistan to Iraq. My point was that we are already there so no use being in denial or wanting to see America defeated. If we're there let's do the best to end it well. You did not answer my question about terrorism. Minimimalizing the lives of people who died on 9/11 with your choking statistic did not address the question. Are you worried that Iraq will be left as a training ground for terrorists or not?

Defeated? Who do you think is going to surrender? We were defeated the day we entered that country. We lost the support of our allies, we lost the stature of our country worldwide and we gave those that hate us a weapon with which they could beat us over the head... oil. You're paying over $4 a gallon right now because of that little war and you're in denial if you think there's anything to "win". And I did answer your question. Terrorism won when Osama got away because we didn't have the forces on the ground to go get him. Now they have a poster child to lead the fight. Terrorism won when Abu Ghraib happened. Terrorism won when Bush and Co. authorized torture. Terrorism won when they made you afraid and caused us to spend trillions of dollars we didn't have. Now we have to work out of a much deeper hole than we would have been in without you trying to "win" a war that didn't have to be fought. It's time we recognized that so we don't make the same mistakes again. Will Iraq be a training ground for terrorists? Every one of the 600,000 civilians that died has family that most likely hates us and not the "terrorists" so yes... it can't help but be.

 

I can't answer these questions. I believe in Jesus who laid His life down for others, including you, I do not believe in killing others to obtain my reward as the terrorists obviously did.

They believe in a god just as strongly as you do. They believe you're wrong just as strongly as you believe they're wrong. There can be no middle ground because even if your leaders meet once every great while and smile and shake hands they still leave thinking the other is wrong. That's why religion is not the way to peace.

 

This statement did not make sense. Why do you think any followers of Jesus would be happy to see NYC wiped out with a nuke? I still don't get that. Just because people talk about end times does not mean they want to see one life lost. Please enlighten me of the connection here.

Is Jesus coming back the greatest thing that could possibly happen? In order for him to come back doesn't there have to be a total mess down here? So when the doo-doo hits the fan, doesn't that mean we're just that much closer to his arrival? Don't tell me that preachers like Pat Robertson and his ilk wouldn't be appoplectic! He told us New Orleans was wiped out because of sin! He told us that 9/11 was America's fault for embracing homosexuality! A nuke in NY would be our fault somehow and would make Jesus just that much closer to arriving.

 

 

First of all, I don't claim any virtue. Jesus Christ is my righteousness, I have none of my own.

What does that mean? It really doesn't mean anything at all, you know that... right? Dissect the words.

 

Second of all, not every born again Christian would appreciate being automatically linked to the GOP, including me. Capital punishment is a separate issue and if you want to start a new thread go ahead and I'll chime in on that then.

I'm sorry, there's a button and if you push it the two automatically hook together. I got it at Staples. Capital punishment is a separate issue if I were speaking about its morality... I'm not. I'm refering to the states that readily execute prisoners to show that those that do are also those that are "red". The corrolary is kinda scary.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

Implying Christianity is a cause of high pregnancy rates would be like saying states with the greatest numbers of homeschoolers also have the greatest reports of child abuse, therefore homeschooling must have some relationship to child abuse. It's silly reasoning.

 

We all know statistics can be terribly misleading. How many of those pregnant teens chose not to abort because of their Christian backgrounds? How many claims to Christianity are just that, claims with no accompanying lifestyle or philosophy? There are too many variables.

[Mamagistra]

Concerned? More people die of choking on food every year than died in the attacks of 9/11. How concerned are you that you'll choke to death? But if you're really concerned about terrorism why in the world would you condone taking the focus off of terrorism and invading Iraq instead of laying the law down in Afghanistan? That's where we should have surged, found and eradicated the terrorists.

 

:eek: Phinally, Phred: something upon which we agree! :D

 

 

 

 

ETA: What I agree with here is the government's general focus on terrorism and our actual risks, btw...not Soph the vet's overall POV or questions. Just to clarify. :blush:

[Soph the vet]

I'd love to see your source for China drilling in US territorial waters.

 

 

Here's one, actually Cuban waters but slant drilling into US oil reserves about 50 miles off Florida.

 

 

CHINA STARTS OIL DRILLING OFF FLORIDA

WHILE AMERICA TWIDDLES THUMBS, CHINESE TAP BILLIONS OF BARRELS

By Mike Blair

 

 

 

While Washington dithers over exploiting oil and gas reserves off the coast of Florida, China has seized the opportunity to gobble up these deposits, which run throughout Latin America, the Caribbean and along the U.S. Gulf coast.

 

The Chinese have forged a deal with Cuban leader Fidel Castro to explore and tap into massive oil reserves almost within sight of Key West, Florida. At the same time, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who controls the largest oil reserves in the Western Hemisphere, is making deals to sell his country’s oil to China, oil that is currently coming to the United States.

 

Meanwhile, a new left-wing populist regime in Bolivia has nationalized the natural gas industry, threatening to cut off supplies to the United States.

 

SLANT DRILLING

 

There are new reports out circulating that Chinese firms are planning to slant drill off the Cuban coast near the Florida Straits, tapping into U.S. oil reserves that are estimated at 4.6 billion to 9.3 billion barrels. This compares with 4 billion to 10 billion barrels believed to be beneath the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, where drilling is held up in Congress due to the objections of environmental groups which warn of endangering caribou. Permission to drill in the refuge, which experts are certain will not present any environmental hazard, has failed by just two votes in the Senate.

 

As Chinese business increases its reach around the world, it is seeking oil, which it lacks domestically.

 

After elections in Mexico in early July, when a new regime hostile to Washington is expected to take power, the United States might be without supplies of Mexican crude oil. The United States gets about 40 percent of its imported oil from Mexico and Venezuela.

 

China is eager to tap into oil reserves in the Florida Straits and then make a deal with Castro to control it. The Chinese have already reopened an abandoned Russian oil refinery in Cuba. Much of the gas refined there is believed to be destined for Freeport in the Bahamas, where the Chinese, through front company Hutchison-Whampoa, has developed a massive port facility and airfield.

 

With the refinery reopened and expanded it will also meet the needs of Castro.

 

Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) has introduced legislation to ease U.S. restrictions that prevent dealing with Cuba to drill in the Florida Straits. It is hoped that Florida regulations that prevent U.S. oil drilling off the state’s coasts could also be eased.

 

The irony is that Chinese drilling could be even more of an environmental hazard since China is not as concerned about or equipped to deal with any potential ecological disaster as a result of a spill, said Craig.

 

 

 

(Issue #22, May 29, 2006)

 

American Free Press

 

 

 

 

 

[SFP]

 

GOP claim about Chinese drilling off Cuba is untrue.

[monk17]

I agree the waste disposal is a potential problem that is why I said we should look at how they are doing with it, meaning how are they handling their waste.

 

 

 

I read the SA article, they actually say 69% of electricity needs and 35% of overall energy needs. I am all for solar energy if it can truly be implemented. They are looking for 46,000 sq. miles of land for these photovoltaic farms in the desert SW and the use of cadmium which I understand is a rare resource. Along with 400 billion in subsidies they have many hurdles, also they will still be using natural gas to fuel their compressed air electrical storage, albeit less as they say. They also say Germany is looking at doing something similar, to this I would say that I know Germany is increasing its nuclear power along the lines of France as my dh is directly involved with this, just FYI.

 

 

I said drilling is the immediate solution for gas prices. Solar may be the long term solution. But people need to be able to feed their families and still drive to work. China is drilling 60 miles off the Florida coast and we are relying on Saudi Arabia. :confused: We are sitting on a wealth of oil that would give us time to develop the solar and other ideas yet we just let everyone else go at it instead.

We went though these same discussions in the early 70's. I don't mean to be rude but I've been hearing about the short term solution is drilling for more oil and nuclear for almost 40 years. The nuclear industry is highly subsidized which hides the true coast of nuclear, fossil fuel is finite and it heats the atmosphere.

I'm not an expert on drilling but if someone who is please chime in. My thought is if you decide today to start drilling in some unproven field it would take 3 to 4 years for that oil to reach the market. Then the question is which market, oil companies are global.

Back to the Scientific American article. The authors use extremely conservative estimates and don't factor in a lot of cost advantages that typically occur with a long term project. Wouldn't it be great to have that debate on the floor of the Senate with some real scientific evidence? It hasn't been close to reaching any kind of debate since Jimmy Carter.

 

Action Plan:

 

Start a military draft (we'll be out of Iraq by next Wednesday)

Spend 1/2 of war money on Apollo like program

Mandate fuel efficient cars

 

Regards,

[Jami]

 

Is Jesus coming back the greatest thing that could possibly happen? In order for him to come back doesn't there have to be a total mess down here? So when the doo-doo hits the fan, doesn't that mean we're just that much closer to his arrival? Don't tell me that preachers like Pat Robertson and his ilk wouldn't be appoplectic! He told us New Orleans was wiped out because of sin! He told us that 9/11 was America's fault for embracing homosexuality! A nuke in NY would be our fault somehow and would make Jesus just that much closer to arriving.

 

 

 

Not really relevant to this thread, but I thought I would point out for whomever is interested (which could be nobody) that not all Christians believe this about the events before Christ's return. Though I'd say, yes, we all agree his return for his church is the greatest thing that could happen. But there are eschatalogical views that are much more optimistic about the future.

[Phred]

Here's one, actually Cuban waters but slant drilling into US oil reserves about 50 miles off Florida.

 

 

CHINA STARTS OIL DRILLING OFF FLORIDA

WHILE AMERICA TWIDDLES THUMBS, CHINESE TAP BILLIONS OF BARRELS

By Mike Blair

 

 

 

While Washington dithers over exploiting oil and gas reserves off the coast of Florida, China has seized the opportunity to gobble up these deposits, which run throughout Latin America, the Caribbean and along the U.S. Gulf coast.

 

The Chinese have forged a deal with Cuban leader Fidel Castro to explore and tap into massive oil reserves almost within sight of Key West, Florida. At the same time, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who controls the largest oil reserves in the Western Hemisphere, is making deals to sell his country’s oil to China, oil that is currently coming to the United States.

 

Meanwhile, a new left-wing populist regime in Bolivia has nationalized the natural gas industry, threatening to cut off supplies to the United States.

 

SLANT DRILLING

 

There are new reports out circulating that Chinese firms are planning to slant drill off the Cuban coast near the Florida Straits, tapping into U.S. oil reserves that are estimated at 4.6 billion to 9.3 billion barrels. This compares with 4 billion to 10 billion barrels believed to be beneath the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, where drilling is held up in Congress due to the objections of environmental groups which warn of endangering caribou. Permission to drill in the refuge, which experts are certain will not present any environmental hazard, has failed by just two votes in the Senate.

 

As Chinese business increases its reach around the world, it is seeking oil, which it lacks domestically.

 

After elections in Mexico in early July, when a new regime hostile to Washington is expected to take power, the United States might be without supplies of Mexican crude oil. The United States gets about 40 percent of its imported oil from Mexico and Venezuela.

 

China is eager to tap into oil reserves in the Florida Straits and then make a deal with Castro to control it. The Chinese have already reopened an abandoned Russian oil refinery in Cuba. Much of the gas refined there is believed to be destined for Freeport in the Bahamas, where the Chinese, through front company Hutchison-Whampoa, has developed a massive port facility and airfield.

 

With the refinery reopened and expanded it will also meet the needs of Castro.

 

Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) has introduced legislation to ease U.S. restrictions that prevent dealing with Cuba to drill in the Florida Straits. It is hoped that Florida regulations that prevent U.S. oil drilling off the state’s coasts could also be eased.

 

The irony is that Chinese drilling could be even more of an environmental hazard since China is not as concerned about or equipped to deal with any potential ecological disaster as a result of a spill, said Craig.

 

 

 

(Issue #22, May 29, 2006)

 

American Free Press

 

 

 

Why not just link me to the National Enquirer? As was already posted... this is the stuff of urban legend.

[Robin in Tx]

According to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregancy, the teen pregnancy rates for girls ages 15-19 were highest in the South and Southwest, with Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico topping the list, followed by Texas, Florida, Mississippi and California (96-128/1000 girls).* The rest of the South (excluding Virginia) had rates of 88-95/1000 girls.

 

*This info came from a state graph, so I can't determine the order Texas, Florida, Mississippi and California should be in.

 

I also found this earlier info:

 

The number of Georgia teenagers per 1,000 who became pregnant in 1992 was the highest in the nation. Of the 10 states with the highest teen pregnancy rates, six are in the South.

1. Georgia 106.9

[*] 2. Nevada 106.0 3. North Carolina 104.6 4. Texas 103.7 5. Arizona 103.6 6. New Mexico 101.8 7. Mississippi 100.8 8. New York 96.6 9. Tennessee 94.010. Alabama 93.2* Number of pregnancies per 1,000 teenage girlsSource: Centers for Disease Control

 

According to the Guttmacher Institute (which is who the CDC uses for these type statistics) the top ten are ordered this way for the year 2003:

 

Nevada

Arizona

Mississippi

New Mexico

Texas

Florida

California

Georgia

North Carolina

Arkansas

 

Half are the south, but four of the top five are southwest.

 

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf

 

See Page 12.

 

I really don't consider Nevada, California, Arizona, New Mexico, the heart of the bible belt! LOL

 

If we're going to cite coincidences, there are coincidences more compelling than religion. Look at race (the rates are highest among hispanics, so naturally, the states with the highest hispanic population have some of the highest rates). Also socio/economic opportunities such as poverty, education, etc., are factors.

 

Just fyi.

[Soph the vet]

Why not just link me to the National Enquirer? As was already posted... this is the stuff of urban legend.

 

OK, after a little more sleuthing I see that no one can prove whether China is actually drilling or not (even Dick Cheney has cited that they are) but they have an agreement with Cuba to do just that. But is that really the point? The point is that if they do drill off Florida why are we not opposing it because of environmental concerns or doing it ourselves?

[Soph the vet]

 

Let me get this straight... you're criticizing the man who wants to get us out of an ill-conceived and unwarranted war for wanting to do so rather than the man who got us into it in the first place? How about, "Thank god, someone with half a brain! Great, let's figure out the best way and get to doing it!"

 

Did I criticize him? I'm still waiting to hear what his plan is. I can't criticize something I have not heard. Anyone can preach "change" and get people whipped up for whatever that is. All I am asking is what is his plan, exactly, for getting out of Iraq? If he is running for President he should already have a plan and a whole brain.

[SFP]

Barack Obama's plan.

[Soph the vet]

Barack Obama's plan.

Thanks for posting this. I read it and beyond it to the "read the plan" link.

It still seems very vague except for the timetable which I suppose terrorist cells will be thankful for.

So how many troops will need to remain in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats? What does Obama mean by he will "press" Iran and Syria to prevent foreign fighters from crossing the border? The word negotiate is used which I personally do not believe can happen with Iran's current president who would like to "wipe Israel off the map". How does one negotiate with rogue nations and their irrational leaders? I am not expecting anyone on this board to answer these questions but I would like to see more specific answers from those who are saying they have a plan.

[SFP]

Does your candidate have a plan that specifically addresses your questions, Soph?

[Robin in Tx]

Does your candidate have a plan that specifically addresses your questions, Soph?

 

 

In all fairness, McCain isn't running on a "get out of Iraq now" platform.

[dragons in the flower bed]

I'm afraid that we might be going the way of the roman empire....

but that's just me.

 

It's not just you. There's a whole movement of us, and we're digging in with our books and our gardens, homeschooling/homesteading in the hopes of passing the intellectual riches of our civilization on to someone.

[SFP]

In all fairness, McCain isn't running on a "get out of Iraq now" platform.

 

So you're saying that since McCain plans to stay in Iraq (till 2013 or 100 years from now depending on what's coming out of his mouth on any particular day) he doesn't have to articulate any plans at all?

 

How fair is that?