Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Could you trade out some words to make it more obvious? About red apples of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice? I'm curious... isn't the "about red apples" a prepositional phrase? "is covered" are the only words NOT in prep phrases, right? So, the "understood you" would be in play, and where "you" doesn't fit... is there an exception and so "it" becomes the "understood 'you'?" Just a guess, perhaps a horrible one. :) I have to brush up on this, I suppose :) About is not functioning as a preposition in the sentence. It is only a preposition some of the time. In this case, it means approximately. Does this sentence help explain? "Approximately three-fifths of the women on the forum are only here for the kilts." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 So the rule is: The subject-verb is always based on the relationship of the subject and the verb, and not on the agreement of the verb with the object of the preposition (which would be wrong), except sometimes when the rule is thrown out the window? Explain this to me like I'm a 7 year old. Maybe I need to dig out some Noam Chomsky? :D Bill Or, for a descriptivist: when you use that number (singular or plural) for the verb, does it give you a intuitively normal English sentence? Much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Or, for a descriptivist: when you use that number (singular or plural) for the verb, does it give you a intuitively normal English sentence? Much easier. I hate that, you know?! :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 About is not functioning as a preposition in the sentence. It is only a preposition some of the time. In this case, it means approximately. Does this sentence help explain? "Approximately three-fifths of the women on the forum are only here for the kilts." Yes, because I can totally identify with being here only for the kilts. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Or, for a descriptivist: when you use that number (singular or plural) for the verb, does it give you a intuitively normal English sentence? Much easier. Hm. That probably depends upon the people with whom you interact. For example, if normal English sounds like the guys in the video I'm linking, then you might have an issue. There is some bad language in this amazing video of a group of Hawaiian guys who have spotted a great white shark off of Oahu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 "Approximately three-fifths of the women on the forum are only here for the kilts." Yes, it's all clear now. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheryl Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 About 12% of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice. Options above (if I can get the poll thingie to work). Dh gave his authoritative* vote, but I'm interested to see the grammatical intuitions of others on this. ETA: In answer to the fair question, "complete subject or simple subject?" I mean the simple subject; or, since that phrase causes dh to wince, "the head of the noun phrase forming the subject." You're welcome, linguists. *He essentially has a Ph.D. in grammar, so I defer to him in these things as a straightforward Argument From Authority. 12 is not covered earth is not covered I see simple subject/verb --> "surface is covered" What's the correct answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 12 is not coveredearth is not covered I see simple subject/verb --> "surface is covered" What's the correct answer? I'm back to thinking "12%" is a "part" of a whole, so the implied subject is part. "Part is covered" is the simplified sentence. It is just like math after all :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 12 is not coveredearth is not covered I see simple subject/verb --> "surface is covered" What's the correct answer? .12 is covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I voted percent, but now I think is it 12% after reading some of the responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Is anyone else feeling not qualified to homeschool? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristyB in TN Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I am strangely obsessed with this now. Can we get a definitive answer? I really need to know. I don't know why... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristyB in TN Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 "Approximately three-fifths of the women on the forum are only here for the kilts." :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Is anyone else feeling not qualified to homeschool? :D :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I am strangely obsessed with this now. Can we get a definitive answer? I really need to know. I don't know why... Well, again necessarily appealing to the argument from authority, but the guy who wrote a 1000-page dissertation on pronouns says it's percent. Good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaichiki Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Well, again necessarily appealing to the argument from authority, but the guy who wrote a 1000-page dissertation on pronouns says it's percent. Good enough for me. I took linguistics classes in college years ago... had some sort of short-term love affair with the English language... I haven't read any grammar books lately, but I remember that I translated the 12% into the words twelve percent. Each word must have its own part of speech/job in the sentence. Twelve, in this case, is modifying the word percent (how many percent?). I don't know *anything* about the rules to which Mrs. Mungo refers -- something about twelve percent taken as a number in itself and therefore not able to be separated... I've never heard of that before. I would love some references if you all have them (considering there's a huge number of you keeping the twelve and the percent together). I want to see what I'm missing! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Could you trade out some words to make it more obvious? About red apples of the surface of the Earth is covered in water and ice? I'm curious... isn't the "about red apples" a prepositional phrase? "is covered" are the only words NOT in prep phrases, right? So, the "understood you" would be in play, and where "you" doesn't fit... is there an exception and so "it" becomes the "understood 'you'?" Just a guess, perhaps a horrible one. :) I have to brush up on this, I suppose :) This is a good trick. We use it with word problems in math. This sentence might work: Approximately 10 red apples on the surface of the Earth are covered in water and ice. Substitue "approximately" to show that "about" is not a preposition in this case and "apples" is not the object of the preposition. I changed "of" to "on" so that it made sense but it's still a prep phrase and, of course, changed "is" to "are". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I won't even pretend. I thought it was surface, as did my dh who is excellent at this sort of thing. I'll admit that a very few seconds later he started talking about prepositional phrases and said 12%. I wouldn't have gotten to that point. (i was stuck on thinking that nber couldnt possibly be scientifically correct, however.) I don't think I'm stupid or unqualified to homeschool. I think language, usage and all of its rules is fascinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I won't even pretend. I thought it was surface, as did my dh who is excellent at this sort of thing. I'll admit that a very few seconds later he started talking about prepositional phrases and said 12%. I wouldn't have gotten to that point. (i was stuck on thinking that nber couldnt possibly be scientifically correct, however.) I don't think I'm stupid or unqualified to homeschool. I think language, usage and all of its rules is fascinating. Absolutely. I think being interested enough in how our language works to have had the conversation with your dh and to have spent brain-power on the question show your qualifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 "Approximately three-fifths of the women on the forum are only here for the kilts." :lol: :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheryl Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Well, again necessarily appealing to the argument from authority, but the guy who wrote a 1000-page dissertation on pronouns says it's percent. Good enough for me. Sharon, Did I miss somthing? There are no pronouns in the original sentence, right? I would need another source confirming percent is the answer. I don't get it. I reworded the sentence to read Earth's 12% surface is covered in water and ice. Or, 12 % (it word not be written numerically, but as a word "twelve") of earth's surface is covered in water and ice. I see surface as the subject. Earth and 12 would be considered adjectives modifying "surface" (surface is noun as subject) in the sentence I reordered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Earth's 12% surface is covered in water and ice. I see surface as the subject. Earth and 12 would be considered adjectives modifying "surface" (surface is noun as subject) in the sentence I reordered. You can't just reorder sentences to make sense of them.. The cat ate the canary. cat = subject; canary = direct object. The canary was eaten by the cat. canary = subject; cat = object of preposition. Note that in both sentences, the action is being done by the cat, and the canary the one acted upon. But the subjects and objects, grammatically, are different. And honestly, that reordered sentence doesn't even make any sense. Earth's 12% surface? What the heck does that even mean? It's 12% of the surface, a part of it, not a surface that has some 12% quality in and of itself... Objects of prepositions, as surface is in the original sentence (of the surface) cannot be subjects. Cannot. Ever. Full stop. You can't just reorder the sentence so that the word in question isn't in a prepositional phrase and learn anything about the original sentence - it may be the subject of the reordered sentence, but not the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Does this sentence help explain? "Approximately three-fifths of the women on the forum are only here for the kilts." Sure, but I think your estimate is a little low. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.