Question about Mormons and Christianity

[Veritaserum]

stating that mormons don't follow the teachings that came out of Nicea would be one way of answering why other christians don't consider mormons christian. putting up links to anit-mormon websites that "prove" mormonism is wrong is not being polite or gracious in sharing your own beliefs, whatever your experiences.

 

No kidding. There's a polite way: "I don't consider Mormons to be Christian because their doctrine doesn't follow the Nicene Creed." And then there's the impolite way: "Mormons are NOT Christians because this anti-Mormon link (full of exaggerated or totally inaccurate info) says so."

[Veritaserum]

That would be carolfromIL :lol: I wonder if she took my advice to "let go and let God"? What does that even mean? I don't know. I probably shouldn't have said it. :tongue_smilie:

 

Others were more...hurtful/disappointing.

[Lovedtodeath]

"let go and let God"? What does that even mean?

It means that once one has planted a seed it is time to step back and trust God to make it grow. And that I should wait on His leading, rather than thinking that it is all up to me and therefore continuing to push my views on everyone I think of and at every opportunity. (Which can be very stressful for the pusher too.) ;) Pray and trust God. All is in His hands. (Including, at times, leading people to post things that others get offended at.)

 

Carmen

Edited January 19, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Xuzi]

I think we could all use a breather. :p I personally don't see "hatred", so much as good-intentions-gone-awry. I KNOW there are people who believe Mormons are miss-led sheep at best, and destined for Hell at worst, and genuinely wish to "save" us. What they perhaps don't realize is that they're not the first (nor the probably the last) to attempt such a thing, and that their tactics may end up pushing us further from where they think we should be in our walk with God. Links to websites that "disprove" Mormonism give off the vibe of "Here's something that'll prove that the most important thing in your life is bunk!" And who likes getting *that* kind of message?

 

But anyway. I'm not personally insulted or offended by anything that's been posted in this thread recently. A bit frustrated at times, and feeling like the poor dead horse is being pulled out for yet another beating (referring to past experiences explaining my faith, and not just here on the Hive), but one of the unspoken "commandments" of being LDS is "Thou shalt grow a thick skin". Mine's darn near being armor. :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

However, I think the kind of people who are reading this thread want to hear what we believe from the horse's mouth, so to speak. That is why your comments are out of place here. If you would like to ask a specific question about what we believe, please feel free to do so. We love answering questions!

I disagree with this. I feel it is important to go to outside sources because I know that there are religious groups that hide the truth from you until they think you are ready to accept it, withholding “deeper doctrines” from potential converts and the public, and withhold and/or distort details in their organization’s history. They also teach things like what is in these quotes:

 

God's Word commands: "Speak truth each of you with his neighbor." (Eph. 4:25) This command, however, does not mean that we should tell everyone who asks us all he wants to know.

 

In the Bible, lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person.

 

Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry.

 

Lies are untruths told for selfish reasons and which work injury to others.

 

So in time of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect the enemy by hiding the truth. It is done unselfishly; it does not harm anyone; on the contrary, it does much good.

 

Lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person.

 

 

While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.

 

These books should be secured and viewed by elders only. It should be kept in a secure place so others do not have access to it. Otherwise it should be completely destroyed.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[DianeW88]

But anyway. I'm not personally insulted or offended by anything that's been posted in this thread recently. A bit frustrated at times, and feeling like the poor dead horse is being pulled out for yet another beating (referring to past experiences explaining my faith, and not just here on the Hive), but one of the unspoken "commandments" of being LDS is "Thou shalt grow a thick skin". Mine's darn near being armor. :lol:

 

:iagree: Mine, too. :lol: I don't mind sincere questions or even concern from others, especially if they don't know what our true beliefs are...as is clearly evident from all the websites out there that misrepresent us so much it's laughable.

 

What is annoying is a patronizing attitude toward us. We are adults, we know what our church teaches, we are not being "brainwashed" or mislead in following our faith. The other women on this site are also all intelligent, independent thinking adults who don't need to be "warned" against the LDS church. That is simply insulting.

 

I am always happy to respond to an honest inquiry. I don't expect, nor am I asking, for anyone else to accept it as truth for them in their lives. I am merely explaining what our church truly teaches, especially when the truth contradicts most of the nonsense others claim we believe. I'm not interested in arguing or debating my religion. It isn't productive and this forum is not the place for it.

 

And I suspect with the way things look at the moment on the political scene, you all will be so sick and tired of hearing about the LDS church come November, won't have another thread like this for a looong time! :lol:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Faith is sacred, and we are not each other's Holy Spirit. If I know anything at all about Him, it's that He's completely capable of speaking for Himself to His people.

The Galatians had received the good news from Paul and the Holy Spirit. Yet they were deceived and needed to be readjusted by a fellow Christian. Thus, the letter. Edited January 19, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

It says nothing of someone's intelligence to warn them to check out religious groups before joining. It says nothing of someone's intelligence that they belong/belonged to a cult. Mind Control This book has specific stories of highly successful business owners, lawyers and doctors who needed help:

I am highly intelligent, so my falling for a criminal cult was mystifying:

 

I do not know of anything to warn about in the LDS church. If you are joining a religious group, then read this book and this article. You can also read this book with the intent of proving that your current group is fine. Then you still will have learned something and perhaps could use this knowledge to help someone else.

 

but every group that is not a cult will not mind one doing research, so do it.

 

There are cults and abusive churches that should be avoided, and there are friends, neighbors and family members either joining them or in them in almost all of our lives.

 

How to Spot an Abusive Church - Rick Ross Combatting Mind Control

[Veritaserum]

Carmen, enough. Really. I'm not brainwashed. I'm not being mind controlled. I'm not in an abusive church. I know the controversies in my church's history. I have my own understanding of what they mean. I don't love everything about my church and I happen to strongly dislike Romney. I do, however, love what's in the core of my church's teachings. It is MY truth, even if it isn't yours or anyone else's.

 

People who continue to push THEIR truth will at best offend and annoy and at worst completely destroy any faith in God.

[Heidi]

I am always happy to respond to an honest inquiry. I don't expect, nor am I asking, for anyone else to accept it as truth for them in their lives. I am merely explaining what our church truly teaches, especially when the truth contradicts most of the nonsense others claim we believe. I'm not interested in arguing or debating my religion. It isn't productive and this forum is not the place for it.

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

and at worst completely destroy any faith in God.

I am certain that reading Steve Hassan's book will not destroy your faith in God unless your god is Sun Myung Moon. Reading should actually put any doubts to rest, and you may be able to help others.

A lot of churches teach (not just pulpit but via publications and classes) that LDS is a cult. They also teach that the Catholic Church is a cult.

Exactly. Reading a book on an actual cult can put unfounded accusations to rest.

 

People who continue to push THEIR truth will at best offend and annoy

The truth that I am pushing here is not that you are mind controlled. I am sorry that it seems that way. The link in this thread about the Book of Abraham is the very first anti-Mormon thing I have read. I didn't realized that they were mentioned but not talked about in-depth in that link I had a while back. That link has a different definition of cult. Edited January 19, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[HSmomNY]

Please no bashing. A friend made a comment to me tonight that had me saying , and wondering why she would say it. She said Mormons aren't Christians. Why? What am I missing? If you are Mormon, do you consider yourself a Christian or not?

 

I am a Mormon and I am a Christian.

I am a follower of Christ, at times not the best one but a follower just the same.

I have faith in Christ and believe that though His atonement I can be saved and return to live with My Heavenly Father again. I believe He died for my sins. I believe He is my Savior. I love Him and try each day to be more like Him. I grow in my faith when I read the scriptures, the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price as well as the words of living prophets.

 

As to why some people do not see us as Christians, Well....

1. We have additional scriptures beyond the Bible.

2. We have a living Prophet, who receives revelation for our day.

3. We have a different understanding of the God Head ie. we do not believe in the Nicene Creed.

 

There are other reasons but I think these are the main ones, or at least the ones I hear most often.

Thank you for you time and questions.

[Heidi]

For those who want to do honest research into the church, lds.org has all of the manuals, curriculum, and handbooks in pdf, available to search by the public. Go to menu, then manuals. It's even searchable.

[Veritaserum]

When I said, "People who continue to push THEIR truth will at best offend and annoy and at worst destroy any faith in God," I meant this: If your goal is to destroy someone's current foundation of faith (their truth) because you just know yours is better, you risk them having no faith at all because they cannot or will not accept YOUR truth as a replacement for the one you destroyed. It is not a wise tactic unless your goal is to produce an agnostic or atheist who will reject all forms of the religion the "pusher" sought to share.

[Lovedtodeath]

When I said, "People who continue to push THEIR truth will at best offend and annoy and at worst destroy any faith in God," I meant this: If your goal is to destroy someone's current foundation of faith (their truth) because you just know yours is better, you risk them having no faith at all because they cannot or will not accept YOUR truth as a replacement for the one you destroyed. It is not a wise tactic unless your goal is to produce an agnostic or atheist who will reject all forms of the religion the "pusher" sought to share.

Yes, that is a good warning. Truly.

Oh no, I was encouraging them to read it and pray about it :D I get a little enthusiastic sometimes.

I understand. I once told an agnostic person to lift the veil and see Christ. I was hoping it would work. :D

 

While I do not agree with a lot of LDS doctrine, I must say I have always admired the way you all share your faith (so graciously!), and the community you build with each other.

:iagree:I wish we had all of the youth programs (like the camps mentioned here) available to us when I was growing up. We didn't believe in them, and were discouraged from participating in other camps, like Girl Scouts, so that left us with nothing. I was just telling my aunt the other day that I could have had a lot more fun if I was raised in the LDS faith.

 

Thank you ladies for continuing to communicate. :grouphug: Newborns have a lot to learn.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Joanne]

It means that once one has planted a seed it is time to step back and trust God to make it grow. And that I should wait on His leading, rather than thinking that it is all up to me and therefore continuing to push my views on everyone I think of and at every opportunity. (Which can be very stressful for the pusher too.) ;) Pray and trust God. All is in His hands. (Including, at times, leading people to post things that others get offended at.)

 

Carmen

 

Please, I beg you;don't play the "God told me to post this" card, even indirectly.

 

It's on par with trotting out "Christians will be oppressed and tortured for telling the truth" (prooftexted) scripture.

[Lovedtodeath]

Please, I beg you;don't play the "God told me to post this" card, even indirectly.

Okay. Honestly, I did not feel the Spirit directly leading me on this thread. I have on other threads. I cannot speak for others posting here, which is what I was saying indirectly.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

I guess if you want to get technical about it, it would have to be the Romans who occupied ancient Antioch as they were the first to coin the phrase. And then it was a wordy dird :eek:. :lol:

"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name." "and it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians." Acts 15:14; 11:26

[ma23peas]

stating that mormons don't follow the teachings that came out of Nicea would be one way of answering why other christians don't consider mormons christian. putting up links to anit-mormon websites that "prove" mormonism is wrong is not being polite or gracious in sharing your own beliefs, whatever your experiences.

 

I do find it interesting that I share my experiences, my findings...I did not want to list the entire truths about the Book of Abraham here...if there were those who were interested in my question as to why then they have the option to click. Not following the teachings that came out of Nicea has nothing to do with why I believed what I did which directly answered the Original Poster's question.

 

Here is another reason, more elaborative of why I do not believe and this is not to be 'impolite, or ungracious' it is clearly sharing why I do not believe...let's say that there is a large rock on a pinnacle...on one side it is illuminated by the moon (where I stand) and on the other side it is illuminated by the sun (where the differing crowd stands)...I share my opinion of what I see in the rock...at night time the rods and cones in your eyes work overtime and reveal a much different landscape than what those who view the rock by a different light can see. So, I share my picture of the rock...all those who do not see my vision cry foul...but is my vision not as valid as those who view it by the light?

 

The gentleman (who went on to do his 2 year tour in China) who I was referring to was a dear friend to me...we had attended many functions together, we were good friends. Only when he wanted to consider dating me did things become complicated....I seriously considered dating him...we had 2-3 serious conversations and the first ones were 'on the same page'...but by the 2nd and 3rd...we both realized there were questions neither of us could answer. I did not go to a person or an elder...I went to the library....I trusted that this was not the first time this had come up so I read, read, read. I then went to him with what I had found and he had heard nothing of it (not declaring one or all of it true, but there)...now, remember, we were good friends, hanging out..going to movies with groups, he was a fraternity brother and I was that fraternity's little sister so we had a lot of functions to go to. Not once did I ever betray our friendship, he even admitted that what I was doing was in a kind and loving manner...that was not his problem...his problem then became his elder's problem...he simply said, "My elder will not let me date you and advised me to go into solitude until my mission'....okay, I respected that..I did not understand it...but then his sister began to treat me disdainfully at little sister meetings....I'm a smart cookie, I had not done anything to her..but I had challenged her faith and that made her angry. If anyone challenges my faith, I do not get angry, I do not respond with shunning...my experience is that when you go against this faith, you are more likely to receive that type of reaction....as has happened here.

 

So looking deeply into its foundations I found enough and was shown enough by members actions to know that those were not consistent with the attitude/actions of those I had known growing up with a devotion to the Lord I had known....yes, wonderful people, yes wonderful morals, yes, wonderful families...but when I say No, not Christians as my lifetime has shown it I am shunned and chastised. Many who did not believe Paul on his many miles of teachings also shunned and chastised him...

[Lovedtodeath]

Another answer to the OP that I have found: Some Christians do not consider Mormons Christians because when they say the word salvation and grace they mean something different than when mainstream Christians say it.

Just a short comment...belief in the Trinity is not a Biblical requirement for salvation. The Bible defines faith in Jesus' sacrifice as the requirement. The Bible also says faith without works as dead, so there is a legitimate debate about how works play into the exercising of faith. But either way, that is secondary to the initial concept of faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

:iagree:with the above. The question I was asked is this: What works was James speaking of?

 

And supposing you're wrong. Suppose that LDS have the view of God completely wrong, my universalist tendencies say who cares? I can't imagine people spending an eternity in a lake of fire because they had incorrect notions about the nature of God.

My belief is that someone being taught by the Holy Spirit will not remain with an incorrect view of the nature of God, but many things like the nature of God are learned at a deep level, not really explained intellectually with words.

[Maus]

...I can not begin to find the books/sources I used back then (no internet!) but when looking tonight, I did remember reading intently about the Book of Abraham and that was one area that made me have doubts...as I looked farther and farther there were more details that did not meet the scriptural reference above as did..that was enough for me. This was the first link that popped up when I put in Book of Abraham...

http://www.mormonismdisproved.org/book_abraham.html

 

Since many are posting links of one point of view...this provides additional information one might not find without knowing what to look for.

You probably didn't know we knew all that already, the stuff from that link. It was published in a church magazine called "The Era". My dad used to have a pretty good collection of those, but he sold them to a collector when I was in college. I can't find them online, but I did find the cover on FAIR.

 

That's why we find that site "dishonest" in it's approach, because it acts like we either didn't know that or have been hiding it and that the site owners are therefore "exposing" us.

 

In fact, we have known since the extant parts of the scrolls were found and returned in the 1960's, and our scholars have been studying and openly discussing them ever since. You can find some of the most recent articles on lds.org or byu.edu.

[Maus]

I have several resources from which I have studied...I had a personal reason for finding out more about the Mormon religion...I had a friend in college who many wanted to 'set us up'....we both were teetotalers and 'religious'...many then did not distinguish between our faiths and to be honest, neither did I...he started to take an interest in me and I had made a choice to only date Christians. Having not known about the Mormon faith I asked him key questions that I believed to lead one to faith. He could not answer them, and he wanted to so he went to seek out answers...long story short, but it was eventually revealed to me that his elder had advised him not to communicate with me....that he should also only date Mormons...that made me even curioser.

 

The gentleman (who went on to do his 2 year tour in China) who I was referring to was a dear friend to me...we had attended many functions together, we were good friends. Only when he wanted to consider dating me did things become complicated....I seriously considered dating him...we had 2-3 serious conversations and the first ones were 'on the same page'...but by the 2nd and 3rd...we both realized there were questions neither of us could answer. I did not go to a person or an elder...I went to the library....I trusted that this was not the first time this had come up so I read, read, read. I then went to him with what I had found and he had heard nothing of it (not declaring one or all of it true, but there)...now, remember, we were good friends, hanging out..going to movies with groups, he was a fraternity brother and I was that fraternity's little sister so we had a lot of functions to go to. Not once did I ever betray our friendship, he even admitted that what I was doing was in a kind and loving manner...that was not his problem...his problem then became his elder's problem...he simply said, "My elder will not let me date you and advised me to go into solitude until my mission'....okay, I respected that..I did not understand it...but then his sister began to treat me disdainfully at little sister meetings....I'm a smart cookie, I had not done anything to her..but I had challenged her faith and that made her angry. If anyone challenges my faith, I do not get angry, I do not respond with shunning...my experience is that when you go against this faith, you are more likely to receive that type of reaction....as has happened here.

Ok, I'm not quite clear who the third party here was, so I'm guessing you're not remembering his exact terminology....

 

We do use the term elder, but it isn't a position, so it would never take a possessive. An elder is an office in the Priesthood, which nearly every practicing adult male receives sometime between his 18th and 19th birthday (or just prior to going on a mission, if he goes later). So saying, "I went to my elder" makes about as much sense linguistically as saying, "I went to my cub scout." :D It's just something males become when they reach a certain age if they are living the way the Church has taught.

 

I'm guessing it was either his "Elder's Quorum President," which is less likely, or his "Bishop," which is the most likely. The Bishop would have advised him not to date *any* girl exclusively before his mission, not even an LDS one, as that is standard advice, especially in the year or so while he was preparing to go. If he was already in the process of submitting the paperwork, he may have even been advised not to date at all.

 

Shunning is not taught in the LDS faith at all. In fact, the contrary, friendship and fellowship are strongly emphasized. That doesn't mean people don't do, sadly, as I mentioned in a previous post.

 

As far as his sister is concerned, going on a mission has a very strong cultural emphasis, as well as a spiritual/doctrinal one. The whole family would have planned/looked forward to his one day going on a mission from the time he was born (or the time they joined the Church, if they were converts). If she perceived you to be a threat to that, she obviously was aware of his feelings toward you. She was young, right? College age? She didn't treat you appropriately, but it was likely she hadn't been away from home all that long. I've seen it happen. I've seen the opposite, too, where she would suddenly become your best friend, inviting you to every possible church function, hoping to have you all nicely converted and baptized before brother came home.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Maus
changed "since" to the word I was thinking: "sense"

[TexasRachel]

war strategy

 

war strategy!?!? Really? I can't even comment on how offensive this is. I'm pretty sure i would get banned. But don't go to war with us. Just stop posting.

[Xuzi]

Ok, I'm not quite clear who the third party here was, so I'm guessing you're not remembering his exact terminology....

 

We do use the term elder, but it isn't a position, so it would never take a possessive. An elder is an office in the Priesthood, which nearly every practicing adult male receives sometime between his 18th and 19th birthday (or just prior to going on a mission, if he goes later). So saying, "I went to my elder" makes about as much since linguistically as saying, "I went to my cub scout." :D It's just something males become when they reach a certain age if they are living the way the Church has taught.

 

I'm guessing it was either his "Elder's Quorum President," which is less likely, or his "Bishop," which is the most likely. The Bishop would have advised him not to date *any* girl exclusively before his mission, not even an LDS one, as that is standard advice, especially in the year or so while he was preparing to go. If he was already in the process of submitting the paperwork, he may have even been advised not to date at all.

 

 

 

Well, he might have also have been referring to a currently-serving missionary, who *would* go by the "title" of Elder, since all serving LDS missionaries are Elder [lastname]. If that was the case, then the direction to avoid dating wasn't necessarily from someone from a position of authority in the church, but from someone who was currently doing the work that the young man was aspiring to join in on (being a missionary), so he might have gone to him for some advice on how to keep on track towards reaching his goal of becoming a missionary himself. And most missionaries (current and former) can give you plenty of stories about all the dramas and pit-falls that can be caused by a missionary having a piece of his heart given to a young woman (LDS or not) who's waiting at home. Dear John letters, or getting a letter from a third party and finding out that she didn't bother to "Dear John" you at all, or just missing her so much - even if she's "loyal" to you - that it keeps you from being completely focused on the work, etc. etc. etc. The "blanket advice" given to most prospective missionaries is to enter the mission field "unattached". ;)

[gardenmom5]

What they perhaps don't realize is that they're not the first (nor the probably the last) to attempt such a thing, and that their tactics may end up pushing us further from where they think we should be in our walk with God. Links to websites that "disprove" Mormonism give off the vibe of "Here's something that'll prove that the most important thing in your life is bunk!" And who likes getting *that* kind of message?

 

But anyway. I'm not personally insulted or offended by anything that's been posted in this thread recently. A bit frustrated at times, and feeling like the poor dead horse is being pulled out for yet another beating (referring to past experiences explaining my faith, and not just here on the Hive), but one of the unspoken "commandments" of being LDS is "Thou shalt grow a thick skin". Mine's darn near being armor. :lol:

 

No kidding. I was still living with my mother when I joined the church. the amount of anti-mormon literature that walked in the house to just lay around waiting for me to read . . . . . and my mother was too much of a coward to tell the truth when I asked where it came from. she denied knowing. Yeah. right. no one else lived there . . . . I found it all quite stupid.

 

My personal opinion of those who feel they must attack my religion is they are insecure in their own beliefs and feel threatened by something so different.;) if you want me to listen to your views, tell me how great yours is and how it has made you a better person and brought you closer to God. I've enjoyed the threads (and found them informative) where people have done that.

[mommaduck]

No kidding. I was still living with my mother when I joined the church. the amount of anti-mormon literature that walked in the house to just lay around waiting for me to read . . . . . and my mother was too much of a coward to tell the truth when I asked where it came from. she denied knowing. Yeah. right. no one else lived there . . . . I found it all quite stupid.

 

My personal opinion of those who feel they must attack my religion is they are insecure in their own beliefs and feel threatened by something so different.;) if you want me to listen to your views, tell me how great yours is and how it has made you a better person and brought you closer to God. I've enjoyed the threads (and found them informative) where people have done that.

I think things need to be looked at from the positive. Though I still disagree with LDS beliefs, it does two or three things for me: I understand a bit more of LDS thinking, I learned some things that I may have or have not known previously, and (for me personally) it solidified why I believe as I do and why I don't agree with the LDS (and I know that threads on other faiths do the same for others :) ). I find these discussions interesting to say the least. :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

Jesus and his apostles exposed false teachings. Did they do so because their faith was threatened?

war strategy!?!? Really? I can't even comment on how offensive this is. I'm pretty sure i would get banned. But don't go to war with us. Just stop posting.

It had nothing at all to do with going to war with Mormons. Goodness! I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I was using these quotes as an example of why I disagree witht he idea of going straight to the horses mouth. I was quoting a religious publication that was encouraging their members to use this theocratic war strategy. Religious organizations that teach such things to their members do in fact exist, and you never know who they are until you look into it.

 

However, I think the kind of people who are reading this thread want to hear what we believe from the horse's mouth, so to speak. That is why your comments are out of place here. If you would like to ask a specific question about what we believe, please feel free to do so. We love answering questions!

I disagree with this. I feel it is important to go to outside sources because I know that there are religious groups that hide the truth from you until they think you are ready to accept it, withholding “deeper doctrines” from potential converts and the public, and withhold and/or distort details in their organization’s history. They also teach things like what is in these quotes:

 

While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.

 

In the Bible, lying generally involves saying something false to a person who is entitled to know the truth and doing so with the intent to deceive or to injure him or another person.

 

Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry.

 

These books should be secured and viewed by elders only. It should be kept in a secure place so others do not have access to it. Otherwise it should be completely destroyed.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Lovedtodeath

[gardenmom5]

When I said, "People who continue to push THEIR truth will at best offend and annoy and at worst destroy any faith in God," I meant this: If your goal is to destroy someone's current foundation of faith (their truth) because you just know yours is better, you risk them having no faith at all because they cannot or will not accept YOUR truth as a replacement for the one you destroyed. It is not a wise tactic unless your goal is to produce an agnostic or atheist who will reject all forms of the religion the "pusher" sought to share.

 

 

I've come to the conclusion the biggest reason my parents rejected religion was their protestant mothers pushed "if you don't go to church, you'll go to h. e. double toothpicks" so hard. so they ended up with none. (my grandmother tried it on me. big, HUGE, mistake. - on her part.;) eta: she used it to "force" me to grovel at her feet and tell her how "wonderful" she was. I swear she was NPD/BPD.)

 

oh, my mother went to a methodist church when she was a teen, and really liked it, felt very good there. but her baptist-raised mother emotionally pounded her for it. so my mother became an agnostic at best and had nothing to do with religion at all.

Edited January 19, 2012 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

Dear John letters, or getting a letter from a third party and finding out that she didn't bother to "Dear John" you at all, or just missing her so much - even if she's "loyal" to you - that it keeps you from being completely focused on the work, etc. etc. etc. The "blanket advice" given to most prospective missionaries is to enter the mission field "unattached". ;)

 

we had a young man from our ward who was on his mission when he found out from his missionary companion (they come in sets of two you know ;)) that his ex-girlfriend (I don't think they were ever serious) was marrying the companion's brother. . . . . It's a distraction.

[Heidi]

So looking deeply into its foundations I found enough and was shown enough by members actions to know that those were not consistent with the attitude/actions of those I had known growing up with a devotion to the Lord I had known....yes, wonderful people, yes wonderful morals, yes, wonderful families...but when I say No, not Christians as my lifetime has shown it I am shunned and chastised. Many who did not believe Paul on his many miles of teachings also shunned and chastised him...

 

What??? That is silly. By that definition, there isn't a religion in the world that IS Christian.

 

On a lighter note:

 

 

Anybody Charlie the Unicorn fans? Edited January 19, 2012 by hmsmith

[mommaduck]

What??? That is silly. By that definition, there isn't a religion in the world that IS Christian.

 

I'm sorry you had that experience. I have had much MUCH worse experiences. I'm a Mormon in the South. You don't think we get "shunned and chastized" by "Christians"?

 

 

On a lighter note:

 

Anybody Charlie the Unicorn fans?

Ack! My kids are...no, no, no! It drives me bonkers!

 

Yes, LDS get shunned also. They weren't allowed in the only, and large, homeschooling group in the area we had lived in in S. IL. A neighbour of a former friend was LDS and wanted to join. That "friend" was telling me about it and basically said that the woman could either become a real Christian or they could go create their own group :glare: (let me tell you, that is not easy when you belong to a church with very few homeschoolers, if any)

Edited January 19, 2012 by mommaduck

[Heidi]

Ack! My kids are...no, no, no! It drives me bonkers!

 

Well what do you know. There really is a candy mountain. :lol:

[mommaduck]

Well what do you know. There really is a candy mountain. :lol:

:001_huh::lol: oh my! Those other evil unicorns...

[Maus]

Well what do you know. There really is a candy mountain. :lol:

I don't know Charlie the Unicorn... but of course there is: http://www.candymountainresort.com/. I've never stopped there, but I've driven past a couple of times!

[Heidi]

I don't know Charlie the Unicorn... but of course there is: http://www.candymountainresort.com/. I've never stopped there, but I've driven past a couple of times!

 

Mmmmm.... not the same. Trust me, you do NOT want to go to candy mountain. ;)

[mommaduck]

[Myeightkiddies]

On a lighter note:

 

Anybody Charlie the Unicorn fans?

 

Yes! Wait, did I just admit that? Oh well, Yes! Shuuunnnn

[Myeightkiddies]

About shunning, there probably are LDS people who do shun. However, there are Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, CoC, Jewish, Muslim, etc. people that do too.

 

While a church/religion/denomination may not support/promote/teach members to shun, some just do so individually or in small clusters. This certainly isn't a LDS "thing". I've been a victim of shunning from a mainstream protestant denomination. The shunning thread from a couple weeks ago was filled with people who experienced shunning from a variety of churches.

[Myeightkiddies]

Yes, LDS get shunned also. They weren't allowed in the only, and large, homeschooling group in the area we had lived in in S. IL. A neighbour of a former friend was LDS and wanted to join. That "friend" was telling me about it and basically said that the woman could either become a real Christian or they could go create their own group :glare: (let me tell you, that is not easy when you belong to a church with very few homeschoolers, if any)

 

I experienced the same thing at a couple of larger homeschool groups in my area. They made it clear that it was for Christians-only. Mormons and Catholics weren't allowed. They could make their own. This was probably ten years ago.

 

I'm not sure whether or not any of them still homeschool or meet. I'm not surprised if they don't. They were "jerks" about other things (nothing directed toward me but I didn't care for their narrow-minded viewpoints on other topics either), and I didn't have the patience to stay a member.

 

Unfortunately, there aren't many Mormon or Catholic homeschoolers in my current area. If there were and if they had a group, I'd rather join theirs. They certainly must be better than a bunch of "holier than thou" bullies. I use the term bullies because that is how they sounded at their meetings.

 

I'm hoping for a better experience with homeschoolers in Ohio.

[Maus]

The song came first (1928), but the Utah area was almost immediately named for it, initially as a joke, but also in 1928.

 

This photo of it is nice.

 

And apparently the current owner even bears a resemblance to Burl Ives.:lol:

[Maus]

About shunning, there probably are LDS people who do shun. However, there are Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, CoC, Jewish, Muslim, etc. people that do too.

 

While a church/religion/denomination may not support/promote/teach members to shun, some just do so individually or in small clusters. This certainly isn't a LDS "thing". I've been a victim of shunning from a mainstream protestant denomination. The shunning thread from a couple weeks ago was filled with people who experienced shunning from a variety of churches.

Or even groups that aren't religious. My SIL was engaged to a guy from a very small town, less than 800 people (they met on the internet and had a commuter relationship for a couple of years before he proposed). She got into some kind of argument with her soon-to-be SIL and the woman retaliated by getting the whole town to shun my SIL and her children (from her first marriage).

 

They aren't engaged anymore. He refused to take sides, which is ok in and of itself, and typically male, but he also refused to consider moving away, even though they had discussed a community quite a bit larger only a couple of hours away where he could take a job that was definitely better. She wasn't about to move her children to a place where they would all be shunned.

[Ibbygirl]

Or even groups that aren't religious. My SIL was engaged to a guy from a very small town, less than 800 people (they met on the internet and had a commuter relationship for a couple of years before he proposed). She got into some kind of argument with her soon-to-be SIL and the woman retaliated by getting the whole town to shun my SIL and her children (from her first marriage).

 

They aren't engaged anymore. He refused to take sides, which is ok in and of itself, and typically male, but he also refused to consider moving away, even though they had discussed a community quite a bit larger only a couple of hours away where he could take a job that was definitely better. She wasn't about to move her children to a place where they would all be shunned.

 

That's horrible!! :( Why do people have to be such (insert expletive of your choice)!! :mad:

[Myeightkiddies]

Or even groups that aren't religious. My SIL was engaged to a guy from a very small town, less than 800 people (they met on the internet and had a commuter relationship for a couple of years before he proposed). She got into some kind of argument with her soon-to-be SIL and the woman retaliated by getting the whole town to shun my SIL and her children (from her first marriage).

 

They aren't engaged anymore. He refused to take sides, which is ok in and of itself, and typically male, but he also refused to consider moving away, even though they had discussed a community quite a bit larger only a couple of hours away where he could take a job that was definitely better. She wasn't about to move her children to a place where they would all be shunned.

 

It's amazing how horrible people can be to others. How is she doing now?

[ma23peas]

What??? That is silly. By that definition, there isn't a religion in the world that IS Christian.

 

On a lighter note:

 

Anybody Charlie the Unicorn fans?

 

I am sorry you misinterpret...I did not make any definition of what a Christian is, the Bible has done that for me. I do know that a tree is to be judged by its fruit. What I was saying was that the 'fruit' I experienced with my interactions with this family of this faith was not bearing fruits of the Spirit...but rather fruits of fear/intimidation/control...that is how I perceived it..now you may call me wrong...they were my experiences not yours...but not silly. And it was his Bishop...forgive me for not knowing the terminology...the Bible refers more often to Elders than Bishops and it has been 20 years so hopefully you have grace to not parse my words.

[missmoe]

I do find it interesting that I share my experiences, my findings...I did not want to list the entire truths about the Book of Abraham here...if there were those who were interested in my question as to why then they have the option to click. Not following the teachings that came out of Nicea has nothing to do with why I believed what I did which directly answered the Original Poster's question.

 

Here is another reason, more elaborative of why I do not believe and this is not to be 'impolite, or ungracious' it is clearly sharing why I do not believe...let's say that there is a large rock on a pinnacle...on one side it is illuminated by the moon (where I stand) and on the other side it is illuminated by the sun (where the differing crowd stands)...I share my opinion of what I see in the rock...at night time the rods and cones in your eyes work overtime and reveal a much different landscape than what those who view the rock by a different light can see. So, I share my picture of the rock...all those who do not see my vision cry foul...but is my vision not as valid as those who view it by the light?

 

The gentleman (who went on to do his 2 year tour in China) who I was referring to was a dear friend to me...we had attended many functions together, we were good friends. Only when he wanted to consider dating me did things become complicated....I seriously considered dating him...we had 2-3 serious conversations and the first ones were 'on the same page'...but by the 2nd and 3rd...we both realized there were questions neither of us could answer. I did not go to a person or an elder...I went to the library....I trusted that this was not the first time this had come up so I read, read, read. I then went to him with what I had found and he had heard nothing of it (not declaring one or all of it true, but there)...now, remember, we were good friends, hanging out..going to movies with groups, he was a fraternity brother and I was that fraternity's little sister so we had a lot of functions to go to. Not once did I ever betray our friendship, he even admitted that what I was doing was in a kind and loving manner...that was not his problem...his problem then became his elder's problem...he simply said, "My elder will not let me date you and advised me to go into solitude until my mission'....okay, I respected that..I did not understand it...but then his sister began to treat me disdainfully at little sister meetings....I'm a smart cookie, I had not done anything to her..but I had challenged her faith and that made her angry. If anyone challenges my faith, I do not get angry, I do not respond with shunning...my experience is that when you go against this faith, you are more likely to receive that type of reaction....as has happened here.

 

So looking deeply into its foundations I found enough and was shown enough by members actions to know that those were not consistent with the attitude/actions of those I had known growing up with a devotion to the Lord I had known....yes, wonderful people, yes wonderful morals, yes, wonderful families...but when I say No, not Christians as my lifetime has shown it I am shunned and chastised. Many who did not believe Paul on his many miles of teachings also shunned and chastised him...

 

About what I put in blue. I'm sorry this happened. You are right--that wasn't a very Christ like thing to do. Not everyone that belongs to the LDS church always acts in the most loving manner. You might even find clicks in some LDS congregations. We have a saying in our church---the church is true, the people aren't. So while we believe our doctrines to be true, not everything everyone does is true. While sad, that is the nature of unperfect people. I think it is safe to say that to be the case in all religions. Not all Catholics represent the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Not all Bapitist represent the doctrines of the Baptist Church. Not all Hindus represent the doctrine of their religion. And so on and so forth. But I'm very sorry for the hurt these people caused you. It wasn't fair to you.

[Heidi]

I am sorry you misinterpret...I did not make any definition of what a Christian is, the Bible has done that for me. I do know that a tree is to be judged by its fruit. What I was saying was that the 'fruit' I experienced with my interactions with this family of this faith was not bearing fruits of the Spirit...but rather fruits of fear/intimidation/control...that is how I perceived it..now you may call me wrong...they were my experiences not yours...but not silly. And it was his Bishop...forgive me for not knowing the terminology...the Bible refers more often to Elders than Bishops and it has been 20 years so hopefully you have grace to not parse my words.

 

I'm sorry, I called your logic silly, not your experience. I'm sorry you had that bad experience. That must have been horrible for you.

 

Unfortunately, you're still not making sense to me. All well. You lost me at your first post anyway. You don't think we're christian is what you're trying to say though, right? Got it, thanks. Anyone else?

 

:lurk5:

 

ETA: we should make a poll! That will decide it once and for all! :)

Edited January 19, 2012 by hmsmith

[Maus]

 

It's amazing how horrible people can be to others. How is she doing now?

Better. She's dating another guy exclusively now. Her family likes him, and his likes her, so they've got a better foundation going into it.

[Maus]

I...And it was his Bishop...forgive me for not knowing the terminology...the Bible refers more often to Elders than Bishops and it has been 20 years so hopefully you have grace to not parse my words.

Ah, that makes more sense! :001_smile:

 

Not meaning to parse, just curious where he got his advice. It makes a difference who said it, because if it was an Elder's Quorum President, or as the other poster said, a currently serving missionary, then it's just advice/opinion. But if it was a Bishop, it has more weight and becomes more counsel. (And has a reason behind it.)

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, one's Bishop would advise a prospective missionary not to date, not because she was a member or not, but just because she was a distracting girl.

 

My Bishop asked me if I was dating anyone in my prospective missionary interview. If a potential missionary is dating anyone seriously, he or she might not really be a good candidate. They want someone prepared to commit to the whole term of missionary service, not someone likely to get a letter from home in the middle and go rushing back.

 

The interview may have gone something like this, based on what I (and my brothers) experienced:

 

"So, are you dating anyone?"

 

"I've gone out with this one girl several times. She's a good friend, and I really like her. But we aren't exclusive yet."

 

"Good, good. Keep it that way. It's best not to get too close to any one girl before you go."

 

(I wasn't dating anyone. One brother dated, a lot, but hadn't settled on any one girl. The other had had a fairly steady girlfriend through High School, but they'd both agreed early on that he'd serve a mission and that he wouldn't ask her to wait. Good thing! She brought her fiance over to meet us before my brother was halfway through. :D They've stayed good friends and send each other birth announcements and such.)

[Veritaserum]

Ah, that makes more sense! :001_smile:

 

Not meaning to parse, just curious where he got his advice. It makes a difference who said it, because if it was an Elder's Quorum President, or as the other poster said, a currently serving missionary, then it's just advice/opinion. But if it was a Bishop, it has more weight and becomes more counsel. (And has a reason behind it.)

 

As I mentioned in my previous post, one's Bishop would advise a prospective missionary not to date, not because she was a member or not, but just because she was a distracting girl.

 

My Bishop asked me if I was dating anyone in my prospective missionary interview. If a potential missionary is dating anyone seriously, he or she might not really be a good candidate. They want someone prepared to commit to the whole term of missionary service, not someone likely to get a letter from home in the middle and go rushing back.

 

The interview may have gone something like this, based on what I (and my brothers) experienced:

 

"So, are you dating anyone?"

 

"I've gone out with this one girl several times. She's a good friend, and I really like her. But we aren't exclusive yet."

 

"Good, good. Keep it that way. It's best not to get too close to any one girl before you go."

 

(I wasn't dating anyone. One brother dated, a lot, but hadn't settled on any one girl. The other had had a fairly steady girlfriend through High School, but they'd both agreed early on that he'd serve a mission and that he wouldn't ask her to wait. Good thing! She brought her fiance over to meet us before my brother was halfway through. :D They've stayed good friends and send each other birth announcements and such.)

 

My sister's missionary interview went like this:

 

Bishop: "So, are you dating anyone?"

Sister: "Well, there is this one boy...."

 

She was engaged two weeks later and did not go on a mission. :tongue_smilie:

[jennsmile]

My sister's missionary interview went like this:

 

Bishop: "So, are you dating anyone?"

Sister: "Well, there is this one boy...."

 

She was engaged two weeks later and did not go on a mission. :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol:

 

In my BYU married student ward there was a cute couple. She liked a guy and her parents highly encouraged her mission. She came home almost right away after contacting the guy with permission from the mission president and getting engaged. :D