How I, an atheist, try to determine right and wrong

[Ipsey]

How I make decisions about right and wrong?

 

(This may be a mistake, but I'm trying to give some food for thought and figure out my own take here.)

 

I try to determine what does the most good. (Heh, and philosophers have debated for thousands of years what that means. I have no idea, but I do the best I can).

 

I don’t always know what does the most good. Sometimes, I don’t always know what good is. Is good giving money to the homeless man? Should I tell him to wait instead while I get him food? What if I have children in the car waiting on me. What if one of my children is sick with a fever, and this man is asking me for a sandwich. Should I go into the store and buy him a sandwich, while my child with a fever waits in the car? Should I just give him some money instead—he could be fed, or he could just buy something elicit with it. Should I ignore him because he might injure me?

 

Good is feeding the hungry and caring for the sick. Good is finding a way to help them do this for themselves. It’s evolution that has brought me to this. We have evolved in such a way as to form communities. As we commune and help one another, our species does better; our offspring do better. I don’t think of it that way in practice, I don’t think “I’m going to care for my child because it’s a biological imperative.†I help my children because I love them. Part of this comes from evolution/nature, whatever you want to call it. I love my children. Most parents do love their children. It’s nature. And by nature, I mean our biology. It inspires my passionate love for my children. Many animals love their offspring. Just because love and affection is partly biological does not mean is “less†than some sort of God-ordained programming.

 

Again, I don’t always know what is the right thing. Sometimes there’s more than one right thing, but each has little areas of pain or potential harm.

 

I don’t think Christians (or any other religious group) can always determine easily what is the right thing either, even when they have the Bible right in front of them; two Christians can still struggle to determine the right action in a circumstance. What do they do then? Pray, and do the best they can. Try to inflict the least pain and do the most good. Mostly, good is "Doing what God wants." And that's as clear as mud too.

 

 

Here’s something to ask yourself. In Saudi Arabia two teenaged girls were cuffed and dropped into pools and drowned because they had pre-marital sex. It was viewed as an execution. Something their God required. Do you think such a thing is wrong? Do you think a good God would insist on such a punishment for pre-marital sex?

 

No?

 

If not, where do you get your morality? The Biblical God mandated the same thing. A woman was to be stoned if not a virgin on her wedding night. Not to mention stoning rebellious children, and genocide and murder of everyone (fetuses and children included) in an entire city. God made this rule. According to religious people. These were good rules. This is goodness!

 

Of course, they must grapple with how this could be. They no longer practice or believe this, for the most part, but I think you'll find few people who think such rules are good "today". Even though they made their God very happy once upon a time. In Uganda, some Christians supported the execution of gays (only a few years ago), but some didn't. 3000 years ago, their God would have been all for it. Too bad He didn't change His mind sooner.

 

My point is, even from the holy books, folks struggle with right and wrong. Sometimes what they know to be right (not slaughtering children) is different from what their holy text says. Then, they are faced with a struggle as well. Most Christians will say "murdering babies is wrong". Sometimes their decision about right and wrong differs from their text.

 

If so, how have they made their decision?

 

Same way non-religious people do.

 

Not through the influence of demons, no :)

 

They try to know what will help the most and hurt the least.

 

Religious people just have the extra variable of a holy book or deity thrown into the mix, which can mess that up entirely. (see above examples)

 

Beyond that, you'll have to talk with philosophers.

[Jennifer3141]

I love your thoughts but I'm afraid it will fall on mostly deaf ears. The people you are trying to reach aren't going to listen to you.

[Ipsey]

I love your thoughts but I'm afraid it will fall on mostly deaf ears. The people you are trying to reach aren't going to listen to you.

 

Alas, you're likely right.

At least it was said. It's been said elsewhere, of course, but. . .sometimes the impulse is too great to resist.

[Liz CA]

Just wanted to add that there is a distinct difference or shift from the Old Testament to the New Testament. We now have GRACE. It's a beautiful thing!

Agree that two (or more ;)) Christians can argue easily about right and wrong.

[Jennifer3141]

Alas, you're likely right.

At least it was said. It's been said elsewhere, of course, but. . .sometimes the impulse is too great to resist.

 

It can't hurt! I just don't want you to get frustrated and wander off because the people who should listen, simply won't. You're not alone here. It just seems that way sometimes. :D

[mommaduck]

Ipsey, thank you for sharing. It's because of this board, that my understanding of other people has been broadened :)

[Jenny in Atl]

Just wanted to add that there is a distinct difference or shift from the Old Testament to the New Testament. We now have GRACE. It's a beautiful thing!

Agree that two (or more ;)) Christians can argue easily about right and wrong.

 

Then why bother reading from the Old Testament at all...?

[Avila]

I don't know if it will do any good, but thanks for trying.

 

I think the really sad thing is that the people you are trying to reach out to are so enmeshed in their own POV and in speaking so loudly trying to get others to hear them that they won't hear the still, small voice of reason here. They are so intent on being heard that they stop listening.

 

I don't ever want to stop listening, so please keep talking even if doesn't outwardly seem to do any good. It does have an impact.

[LibraryLover]

I'm too tired. lol I don't even know you folks. I appreciate the discussions here and it is difficult to turn away from them. I know there is a PhD thesis in here somewhere. Too bad it's a liberal arts degree. Too costly to get, nowhere to go with it afterwards. ;)

[UnsinkableKristen]

Ipsey, thank you for sharing. It's because of this board, that my understanding of other people has been broadened :)

 

 

:iagree:

[Ipsey]

Just wanted to add that there is a distinct difference or shift from the Old Testament to the New Testament. We now have GRACE. It's a beautiful thing!

Agree that two (or more ;)) Christians can argue easily about right and wrong.

 

I know. I was a devout Christian for many years.

 

OT and NT two separate beasts.

 

Same God, though.

 

Grace is the way your god deals with "sin" issues. Grace doesn't say whether something is good or bad or not. Grace just says you don't _have_ to kill the gays, though according to your god, they actually deserve it.

[Ipsey]

Ipsey, thank you for sharing. It's because of this board, that my understanding of other people has been broadened :)

 

Thanks MD,

I've always enjoyed reading your posts as well.

 

When I first came to this board (actually, when it was the oooold boards!) :), I was a devout Christian Evangelical. You could say this board has broadened me, too :)

Edited November 11, 2011 by Ipsey

[Free]

Love your really thoughtful post.

 

I agree morality is subjective. My morality comes from my parents, my culture, from my own heart and mind. Speaking from personal experience, I know my moral values have evolved over a period of time. When I was religious I had a rigid set of beliefs, inflexible rules about right and wrong and judgemental attitudes about other people.

 

Unshackling myself from these beliefs has been quite an eye-opening experience, but truly worth it.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Ipsey, that was a great post.

 

I'm still reeling from the fact that it needed to be said, though, here of all places.

 

Is this not a hangout for neo-classical homeschoolers? Have we not all studied (and taught our children about) history, religion, philosophy, logic, rhetoric, and various and sundry worldviews? Have we not all read classical and modern works from a wide variety of authors, further exposing us to diverse perspectives? Do we not all follow current events? Just a little bit?

[Onceuponatime]

I think I understand what you are trying to say. To an extent I agree, but I would be classified as religious. I have pondered the conundrums you brought up and have basically evolved my own religious philosophy, based on what I have studied about religion and history. It seems that there are two roads here. Either one chooses his own path based on his own understanding, or relies on what he has been taught. There are pitfalls along both roads.

 

I believe in a universal God who has given everyone of sound mind the means to acquire wisdom (understanding what is good) through observation and experience, and by the teachings of those who have demonstrated wisdom. Not everyone takes advantage of those means.

 

I believe there is a great deal of wisdom in many of the Biblical texts. Some of it can be applied to all people in all places at all times, some of it is culturally specific to the time period of the writing. For me, this is the difference between God's wisdom and human wisdom. I do think that many of the Bible writers anthromorphized God and attributed things to him that did not necessarily come from him, to justify their own actions or to explain traditions. But then again, I don't believe that all the books of the Bible are "The Complete and Literal Word of God." Sola Scriptura is not part of my philosophy, so that skews things. :-)

[Daisy]

Then why bother reading from the Old Testament at all...?

 

Two major reasons.

 

1. It gives us the history of how God has been working towards the redemption of mankind from the beginning. It gives the prophecies regarding Jesus who could came as the Messiah.

 

2. It contains the Law and shows us how we are incapable of abiding by that law. It shows us we are sinners and in NEED of redemption.

 

Think of it this way. The Old Testament tells us what our problem is and foreshadows the solution. The New Testament proclaims the answer to our problem. We need to know we have a problem before we can recognize the solution.

 

(I'm not speaking to the original post and hope this doesn't create too much of a rabbit trail.)

[NanceXToo]

I appreciate your thoughts. I was not raised in the Christian religion as a child and I'm not particularly religious as an adult. Yet I still consider myself pretty moral.

 

I believe that you should treat others as you would want to be treated and make an effort to treat people kindly and to help others when and where you can.

 

I donate money and/or food from time to time for charity.

 

I take my kids on walks to clean up litter just because. We recycle.

 

We host Fresh Air Fund kids in the summer.

 

I'm faithful to my spouse and raise my children with love and guidance and don't hit them.

 

I don't steal or cause harm to others.

 

I do or don't do these things based on internal conviction, not based on thoughts of eternal life or hell- I don't believe in those things.

 

I teach my children manners, respect, to help others, to be tolerant and non judgmental of people who are different. We don't discriminate against people of other religions, sexual preferences, races, etc. We live and let live. We stand up for others.

 

I'm not a perfect person- who is? But I do my best to be what I consider a good person, and I admit it makes me a little nuts to encounter an attitude that implies that if I don't subscribe to someone else's religious beliefs, I can't possibly be as good or moral or whatever as they are and that I'd probably contaminate their kids or something with my secularism.

[MSNative]

I don't know if it will do any good, but thanks for trying.

 

I think the really sad thing is that the people you are trying to reach out to are so enmeshed in their own POV and in speaking so loudly trying to get others to hear them that they won't hear the still, small voice of reason here. They are so intent on being heard that they stop listening.

 

I don't ever want to stop listening, so please keep talking even if doesn't outwardly seem to do any good. It does have an impact.

 

 

Huh? Ok, clearly I missed something on the board. I looked and couldn't find a thread topic about anything like this recently. Help.

I'm quite certain if I read the thread this post won't sound quite as bad to me. Right now, it reads as Christians don't listen to reason. I'm betting there is a ton o' back story here.

[Ipsey]

Huh? Ok, clearly I missed something on the board. I looked and couldn't find a thread topic about anything like this recently. Help.

I'm quite certain if I read the thread this post won't sound quite as bad to me. Right now, it reads as Christians don't listen to reason. I'm betting there is a ton o' back story here.

 

Actually, it's sort of an S/O from the Penn State students thread.

 

Yeah, weird huh? :)

[jar7709]

Ipsey, I'm new at speaking up here, but I've stuck around lurking because of the voices like yours and I just want to say:

 

:iagree:

 

The way I like to describe my athiest/humanist perspective on morality is simple. Since I only get one go-round with this life and existence, I should do my best to leave the world a little better than I found it and help others do the same. :001_smile:

[MSNative]

Actually, it's sort of an S/O from the Penn State students thread.

 

Yeah, weird huh? :)

Thanks!

Ok, I've been tearing through the overpopulation and the YE OE one. Yikes. Off to check it out.

[Avila]

Huh? Ok, clearly I missed something on the board. I looked and couldn't find a thread topic about anything like this recently. Help.

I'm quite certain if I read the thread this post won't sound quite as bad to me. Right now, it reads as Christians don't listen to reason. I'm betting there is a ton o' back story here.

 

On the last locked thread on the Penn students rioting, there was a discussion about how people who believe in evolution have either no morals or no basis for their morals. And anyone who does not agree with the YE, creationist, no-evolution POV has not read the Bible or has not thought through their position.

 

I think we are all still responding to that. And the OP was trying to give a thoughtful response as to how an atheist can have a well-thought-out basis for morality that doesn't include God.

[jplain]

Huh? Ok, clearly I missed something on the board. I looked and couldn't find a thread topic about anything like this recently. Help.

I don't think there's been one recently, but many past threads have included discussion of atheists and morality.

(Ah, I didn't read the Penn State thread, so I missed it if this thread was in reference to it.)

It does seem that many posters here have trouble understanding how/why an atheist could possess a moral compass. :glare:

[Ipsey]

Thanks!

Ok, I've been tearing through the overpopulation and the YE OE one. Yikes. Off to check it out.

 

:lol:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I actually do rely upon the Bible as my main source of wisdom and moral instruction, and I don't have much problem reconciling supposed contradictions within the Bible. It is certainly more a matter of faith than logic, I will gladly concede that.

 

I just can't see how a person could study Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, pagan spirituality (this list could go on all day) and not be forced to acknowledge that these belief systems are ancient. Does that not prove some validity to them, some ongoing benefit to the human race? Ancient belief systems are not ignorant voids. They fill the same space that Christianity fills for some of us.

 

And then we look at Philosophy (some overlap with religion studies, obviously) and find that there are many more people who have been able to identify with the peculiar teachings of certain philosophers than with the religions those philosophers personally embraced.

 

Did that make sense?

 

For example, my father is one of many who believe that Jesus was an amazing and worthy teacher and philosopher but see no value or validity in Christianity as an organized religion. (He feels the same way about several other founders of religions.) He doesn't believe in heaven or hell.

 

So my father is irreligious. According to some Christians, his rejection of Christianity means that he is godless and without a moral code. Obviously dangerous, bad, lost, headed for hell. (I heard this stuff all the time, growing up in fundamentalist churches.) That evaluation of my father hits a snag, though, where I'm concerned.

 

Why? He spent even more time than my mother did in teaching me right from wrong. I've seen his strong moral code in action for decades now. He is very, very true to himself and to his beliefs.

 

When I was a very young child, I came upon him reading Buddhist religious materials. When I asked him what he was reading, he told me all about it. Then, out of respect for my Christian mother and the worldview I was learning the most, he compared Siddharta to Jesus for me. He spoke of their very different upbringings and the different effects their teachings had on the world, and the concepts upon which they seemed to agree. He explained his belief that the point of all religions was to find peace within oneself and to learn how to live with one's fellow man. He said that peace with a god, if a feeling of that assurance could be attained, was just gravy, but the first two were the main idea.

 

He isn't available or able to have these discussions with his grandchildren, so I am incredibly thankful for the materials I can purchase to teach them by myself. I have TWTM, Tapesty of Grace rhetoric philosophy, Memoria Press Logic and Rhetoric, and much more. I start with Christian materials because that is the language in which I think, but I then go to original works and interpretations by those who live by those other views. I'm not scared of any of it.

 

I don't think my children could be well-educated if I shielded them from learning about other religions and worldviews. I think that if they do choose to follow in my religion (Christianity) they will be of more use in the world and more use to the cause of Christ if they have some understanding of the rest of mankind. I can't have them stumbling about, offending wherever they go, so I teach them.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Mimm]

Huh? Ok, clearly I missed something on the board. I looked and couldn't find a thread topic about anything like this recently. Help.

I'm quite certain if I read the thread this post won't sound quite as bad to me. Right now, it reads as Christians don't listen to reason. I'm betting there is a ton o' back story here.

 

Yeah, not sure what's up. I'm a Christian and I do struggle with the viciousness of the Old Testament. I'm not sure how to reconcile that to the message of love and grace you find in the New Testament. People can say that Christians just don't listen to these issues but just because they decide to remain Christians doesn't mean they aren't hearing this. I do hear this, and I don't have any easy answers about it.

[silliness7]

I love your thoughts but I'm afraid it will fall on mostly deaf ears. The people you are trying to reach aren't going to listen to you.

 

I'm listening. And I'm really glad you shared your thoughts,op. I read the skerfuffle last night and am mulling things in my own head. I appreciate civil and logical discourse on the topic.

[Ipsey]

I actually do rely upon the Bible as my main source of wisdom and moral instruction, and I don't have much problem reconciling supposed contradictions within the Bible. It is certainly more a matter of faith than logic, I will gladly concede that.

 

. . .

 

I don't think my children could be well-educated if I shielded them from learning about other religions and worldviews. I think that if they do choose to follow in my religion (Christianity) they will be of more use in the world and more use to the cause of Christ if they have some understanding of the rest of mankind. I can't have them stumbling about, offending wherever they go, so I teach them.

 

Ahhh, yes, and here's the tricky part. Some people are willing to say that "yes, even atheists have a moral code. . . but it came from god/gods."

 

It's a way of trying to horn the question back into a specific construct.

 

1. Atheists/non-religious have no morals

 

or.

 

2. If atheists/non-religious want to claim they have morals, they must then point to a god/gods as the provisioner of those morals.

 

That's something that was a big issue in the previous thread. Essentially, "Ok, you non-believers can have morals, but where did they come from? What are you aiming at when you talk about morality?"

 

Then, from there, the argument boils down to. Is there an absolute right and wrong?

 

To which the only correct answer is. "Yes, and my God is the essence of it."

 

I disagree of course.

 

Anyway, my brain is still firing on this topic, I guess.

[Avila]

Yeah, not sure what's up. I'm a Christian and I do struggle with the viciousness of the Old Testament. I'm not sure how to reconcile that to the message of love and grace you find in the New Testament. People can say that Christians just don't listen to these issues but just because they decide to remain Christians doesn't mean they aren't hearing this. I do hear this, and I don't have any easy answers about it.

 

Check out the other thread. This isn't about people remaining Christian.

 

I brought up reason. Reason here, to me, means that people are capable of acting morally and rationally AND having a basis for it and a moral compass for it without regard to religion. Reason says that someone else can do all the study, research and reading that I have done and come to a completely different conclusion than I have without being ignorant, inept, irrational or unfeeling. I can extend to them the assumption that their beliefs are as well-thought-out and as well researched as my own without diminishing my POV.

 

I am a Christian. It isn't about being Christian.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Asenik

[Free]

Ahhh, yes, and here's the tricky part. Some people are willing to say that "yes, even atheists have a moral code. . . but it came from god/gods."

 

It's a way of trying to horn the question back into a specific construct.

 

1. Atheists/non-religious have no morals

 

or.

 

2. If atheists/non-religious want to claim they have morals, they must then point to a god/gods as the provisioner of those morals.

 

That's something that was a big issue in the previous thread. Essentially, "Ok, you non-believers can have morals, but where did they come from? What are you aiming at when you talk about morality?"

 

Then, from there, the argument boils down to. Is there an absolute right and wrong?

 

To which the only correct answer is. "Yes, and my God is the essence of it."

 

I disagree of course.

 

Anyway, my brain is still firing on this topic, I guess.

 

Which came first? Religion or Morals? ;)

[Onceuponatime]

Ahhh, yes, and here's the tricky part. Some people are willing to say that "yes, even atheists have a moral code. . . but it came from god/gods."

 

It's a way of trying to horn the question back into a specific construct.

 

1. Atheists/non-religious have no morals

 

or.

 

2. If atheists/non-religious want to claim they have morals, they must then point to a god/gods as the provisioner of those morals.

 

That's something that was a big issue in the previous thread. Essentially, "Ok, you non-believers can have morals, but where did they come from? What are you aiming at when you talk about morality?"

 

Then, from there, the argument boils down to. Is there an absolute right and wrong?

 

To which the only correct answer is. "Yes, and my God is the essence of it."

 

I disagree of course.

 

Anyway, my brain is still firing on this topic, I guess.

 

What difference does it make to you if they believe you got your morals from a god/gods, as long as they recognize that you can and do have morals?

 

Faith is not rational. To try to rationalize someone out of faith is usually futile. I recognize this in myself.

[Ipsey]

Check out the other thread. This isn't about people remaining Christian.

 

I brought up reason. Reason here, to me, means that people are capable of acting morally and rationally AND having a basis for it and a moral compass for it without regard to religion. Reason says that someone else can do all the study, research and reading that I have done and come to a completely different conclusion than I have without being ignorant, inept, irrational or unfeeling. I can extend to them the assumption that their beliefs are as well-thought-out and as well researched as my own without diminishing my POV.

 

I am a Christian. It isn't about being Christian.

 

Thank you, Asenik!

[MSNative]

Wow! Tough topic. I think I understand the first thread intent. The poster was positing that since atheists do not share 1 common moral code, each one can make their own code. Since they do not share 1 God to base the standard on, the codes could vary wildly. Also, it would be harder to argue that one code is wrong while the other code is right if there is no external standard. Did I read that correctly? If so, then I think she brings up an excellent question. If there is no exterior standard, how can we judge another person's moral code? How can I say that you are wrong. You just have a different set of values than I do. On the other hand, even Christians of diff. flavors have a hard time agreeing on what it moral as demonstrated by many threads. Hmmm. Fascinating topic to ponder. Hope my musings do not offend. I am trying to think things through and see if I got the gist of it all.

[Ohdanigirl]

On the last locked thread on the Penn students rioting, there was a discussion about how people who believe in evolution have either no morals or no basis for their morals. And anyone who does not agree with the YE, creationist, no-evolution POV has not read the Bible or has not thought through their position.

 

I think we are all still responding to that. And the OP was trying to give a thoughtful response as to how an atheist can have a well-thought-out basis for morality that doesn't include God.

 

Ok, I definitely missed something. I try to stay away from any threads that look too hot. I only read the first two pages, when I realized I knew where it was going.

 

To the OP. Thank you for sharing. I think you summed it up eloquently. I hope it helps others to understand and helped you to voice what you needed to.

 

We all need to remember that people's morals are formed in different ways. Although, one may have different beliefs than yourself, this does not mean they are immoral. Just different. What's wrong with that? I have learned so much from the diversity of this group. It has really helped me grow, So thank you to all who share.

 

Danielle

[Ipsey]

What difference does it make to you if they believe you got your morals from a god/gods, as long as they recognize that you can and do have morals?

 

Faith is not rational. To try to rationalize someone out of faith is usually futile. I recognize this in myself.

 

It matters to me because I get sick and tired of people telling me I either have no morals or that if I'm logical I'll accept that I got my morality from their god. I'm in a society where most people think I'm a bad person because I don't believe in their god. I was told by several of my students on Wed (who don't know I'm not religious), that I can't really be a good American because I don't believe in a god.

 

Perhaps, if you are a religious person, my frustration makes no sense.

 

Atheist and non-believers are some of the most reviled people in this nation. Even worse that the gays! :)

 

I don't necessarily intend to try to change anyone's religious beliefs, I spent too much time as a missionary. I simply wanted to answer someone's question from a previous thread.

 

So, whether it should or not, I get annoyed when someone insists that even when I am perfectly opposed to their perspective, they claim I actually espouse their perspective anyway.

 

In the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter. But it makes one a freakin' jerk, and completely blind to the feelings of the other.

 

Just my take.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Ipsey

[Free]

Wow! Tough topic. I think I understand the first thread intent. The poster was positing that since atheists do not share 1 common moral code, each one can make their own code. Since they do not share 1 God to base the standard on, the codes could vary wildly. Also, it would be harder to argue that one code is wrong while the other code is right if there is no external standard. Did I read that correctly? If so, then I think she brings up an excellent question. If there is no exterior standard, how can we judge another person's moral code? How can I say that you are wrong. You just have a different set of values than I do. On the other hand, even Christians of diff. flavors have a hard time agreeing on what it moral as demonstrated by many threads. Hmmm. Fascinating topic to ponder. Hope my musings do not offend. I am trying to think things through and see if I got the gist of it all.

 

This is only a problem when people insist there is only one way of looking at things, only one correct moral code, only black or white.

 

Reality though is that humans all over the world are implicitly capable of recognizing the subtle variations as white gradually changes to black through various shades of gray in between. Imposing an inflexible moral code that must stand the test of cultural differences through eons is really not beneficial to human society.

[MSNative]

It matters to me because I get sick and tired of people telling me I either have no morals or that if I'm logical I'll accept that I got my morality from their god. I'm in a society where most people think I'm a bad person because I don't believe in their god. I was told by several of my students on Wed (who don't know I'm not religious), that I can't really be a good American because I don't believe in a god.

 

Perhaps, if you are a religious person, my frustration makes no sense.

 

.

 

And it goes both ways. I get annoyed at being told I'm a hater/basher/science despiser etc. 'cause I'm Christian. 'Course at least I haven't been called a heathener. I'm waiting for that. :) It's annoying to have someone tell you what you believe or make assumptions about you. So, as a religious person, I hear you and your frustration makes perfect sense.

[Scarlett]

I love your thoughts but I'm afraid it will fall on mostly deaf ears. The people you are trying to reach aren't going to listen to you.

 

What? Did someone say something? :001_huh:

[Ipsey]

What? Did someone say something? :001_huh:

 

You tell me.

[TravelingChris]

Wow- that thread must have really veered off. Unless we are talking about another thread. The one I was reading had people discussing how awful the situation was and how people who preach doing good didn't do anything. How that veers off into Evolution/Creation is beyond my understanding.

[Onceuponatime]

I'm sorry that you've had to deal with insensitivity.

 

You are right, I don't understand how it feels to be in your shoes. I don't even think I know anyone who proffesses to be an atheist. But I also avoid religious discussions as much as possible. Most (Christian) people I know would be shocked at some of the beliefs I've rejected and some that I've embraced. It's a little scary how rabid the topic of religion can become.

[kalphs]

Thank you for sharing!

:)

[justamouse]

I don't know if it will do any good, but thanks for trying.

 

I think the really sad thing is that the people you are trying to reach out to are so enmeshed in their own POV and in speaking so loudly trying to get others to hear them that they won't hear the still, small voice of reason here. They are so intent on being heard that they stop listening.

 

I don't ever want to stop listening, so please keep talking even if doesn't outwardly seem to do any good. It does have an impact.

:iagree:

 

that was a lot of typing, and with perhaps little reward. Thank you.

[Teachin'Mine]

Ipsey, thank you for sharing. It's because of this board, that my understanding of other people has been broadened :)

 

:iagree: And I have many atheist friends IRL who are very good people. :)

[Jennifer3141]

What? Did someone say something? :001_huh:

 

And it wasn't you this time, grumpy pants!!! :lol::lol::lol:

Still love you! :D

[Ipsey]

:iagree:

 

that was a lot of typing, and with perhaps little reward. Thank you.

 

Nah :)

 

The reward was putting it in words. And for getting the words out and feel like I had explained, to anyone potentially interested, how some non-theists (or, just me in particular :)) work our our morality.

 

Did I use enough hedging there? :)

[Bluegoat]

It matters to me because I get sick and tired of people telling me I either have no morals or that if I'm logical I'll accept that I got my morality from their god. I'm in a society where most people think I'm a bad person because I don't believe in their god. I was told by several of my students on Wed (who don't know I'm not religious), that I can't really be a good American because I don't believe in a god.

 

Perhaps, if you are a religious person, my frustration makes no sense.

 

Atheist and non-believers are some of the most reviled people in this nation. Even worse that the gays! :)

 

I don't necessarily intend to try to change anyone's religious beliefs, I spent too much time as a missionary. I simply wanted to answer someone's question from a previous thread.

 

So, whether it should or not, I get annoyed when someone insists that even when I am perfectly opposed to their perspective, they claim I actually espouse their perspective anyway.

 

In the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter. But it makes one a freakin' jerk, and completely blind to the feelings of the other.

 

Just my take.

 

But doesn't atheism do the same thing? As an atheist, do you think that religious people's value system really does have a foundation in God, or whatever they think underlies reality?

 

It doesn't seem like that would make sense.

 

So how is it different for a religious person to say the morality of an atheist still has a foundation in the underlying reality/God, than for an atheist to say the morality of religious people doesn't really come from God?

[Scarlett]

You tell me.

 

Hey, I should really start reading to the end of a thread before I post silly things. It took a very serious tone and I didn't realize it. I was goofing off with Jennifer.

 

Sorry.:tongue_smilie:

[Ipsey]

But doesn't atheism do the same thing? As an atheist, do you think that religious people's value system really does have a foundation in God, or whatever they think underlies reality?

 

It doesn't seem like that would make sense.

 

So how is it different for a religious person to say the morality of an atheist still has a foundation in the underlying reality/God, than for an atheist to say the morality of religious people doesn't really come from God?

 

Huh?

 

I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

When a religious person tells me, "I do this because I believe in God," I believe them.

 

As to the rest, I think they're wrong, sure I don't think there are gods. But I'm not trying to rub their face in it. I'm also not in a position to politically or socially hurt them, either.

 

Here's the rub. Religious people are a strong majority of the US population. They have the larger numbers, and they have the largest voice. This isn't going to change any time soon.

 

What they say about atheists and atheism and other non-religious is that which is heard the loudest and most often, and with ugly results for non-believers.

 

Examples?

 

http://www1.umn.edu/news/news-releases/2006/UR_RELEASE_MIG_2816.html

 

http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/5125.html

 

My high school students the other day (7 who talked about the subject) explained how "dumb" it was that there should be atheists is American seeing as how "In God we trust" is on our money and "one nation, under God" is in the pledge of Allegiance. Our society, for a large part, demeans non-believers. And there are all sorts who like to look to our government (and our money!) to do so.

 

Again, people (religious in this case) can say anything they darn well want, but when they're in a position of privilege, and can't even see it because they're swimming in it, sometimes I want to say "HEY! I'M HERE, I EXIST! CAN ANYONE HEAR ME! IS ANYONE WILLING TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND?! AT ALL?" Here's your opportunity!

Edited November 11, 2011 by Ipsey

[Ipsey]

Hey, I should really start reading to the end of a thread before I post silly things. It took a very serious tone and I didn't realize it. I was goofing off with Jennifer.

 

Sorry.:tongue_smilie:

 

Gotcha ;)