Crisis of faith- not in God but in the Church (this may be a rant and it is long)

[ktgrok]

:iagree:

I guess it is hard not to interpret things as a [hu]man because that is just what we are.

 

Thank-you again for all your ideas. I am going to check out some of these suggestions.

 

I have heard good things about the book Justification and Regeneration by Charles Leiter. Anyone read this?

 

Anyone here check out Calvary Chapel churches and would be willing to share their experiences?

 

I personally would never go to a Calvary Chapel church because of their stance on children in the service. I refuse to attend a church that will not allow children to be with their parents. I find that unbiblical and not family centered at all.

[mommaduck]

I personally would never go to a Calvary Chapel church because of their stance on children in the service. I refuse to attend a church that will not allow children to be with their parents. I find that unbiblical and not family centered at all.

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

I personally would never go to a Calvary Chapel church because of their stance on children in the service. I refuse to attend a church that will not allow children to be with their parents. I find that unbiblical and not family centered at all.

I'd never heard of churches not letting children attend until recently. I find it a bit disturbing.

[Parrothead]

Oh, that's wonderful! I have no direct, personal experience of Catholicism. But I have noticed with my Catholic friends that there is a certain . . . I don't know, a quiet peace about the way they live out their faith. I'm probably not expressing that well, but trust me, I do mean it as a compliment! :D

 

 

 

It sounded lovely in my head. :grouphug:

[Parrothead]

I would say Catholic too if what you want is biblical. Can't get more biblical than Jesus Christ himself starting The Church.

I always find it odd that people sometimes think the Catholic church isn't Biblical. The original church (Catholic and Orthodox at the time) is the reason the Bible was written in the first place.

[mommaduck]

I always find it odd that people sometimes think the Catholic church isn't Biblical. The original church (Catholic and Orthodox at the time) is the reason the Bible was written in the first place.

:iagree:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I always find it odd that people sometimes think the Catholic church isn't Biblical. The original church (Catholic and Orthodox at the time) is the reason the Bible was written in the first place.

 

It might have something to do with the history of those institutions, and about what they have become, rather than what they were.

[Parrothead]

It might have something to do with the history of those institutions, and about what they have become, rather than what they were.

And they have become.... what exactly?

[simka2]

It might have something to do with the history of those institutions, and about what they have become, rather than what they were.

 

And they have become.... what exactly?

 

I was about to say the same thing for Orthodoxy? ;)

 

What is it that Orthodoxy has "become?"

[ChocolateReignRemix]

And they have become.... what exactly?

 

A political institution more concerned about protecting its influence and wealth than anything to do with the Bible.

[TravelingChris]

Well when I talk of a church which is preach Biblically, I mean a church where the sermons are based on the Bible - not just on good ideas or current ideas. The churches I have attended since leaving the Catholic Church about 25 years ago all have one of two types of sermon preaching. The first is read a section of the Bible and preach on that section. The second is preach on a Biblical or moral theme and choose sections of the Bible to center one's sermon. For example, my pastor preached on living contendly these last weeks- he then used scripture from Job, from letter to the Philippians and from one of the letters to Timothy. He would reference the scripture and give current examples of how people live contendly or not.

 

None of the churches I have ever been a member of or attended ever preached a prosperity gospel or something akin to that. I wouldn't stay at a church like that because in my eyes, that is false teaching.

[Parrothead]

A political institution more concerned about protecting its influence and wealth than anything to do with the Bible.

I believe you have a very skewed idea of both institutions.

[Parrothead]

Well when I talk of a church which is preach Biblically, I mean a church where the sermons are based on the Bible - not just on good ideas or current ideas. The churches I have attended since leaving the Catholic Church about 25 years ago all have one of two types of sermon preaching. The first is read a section of the Bible and preach on that section. The second is preach on a Biblical or moral theme and choose sections of the Bible to center one's sermon. For example, my pastor preached on living contendly these last weeks- he then used scripture from Job, from letter to the Philippians and from one of the letters to Timothy. He would reference the scripture and give current examples of how people live contendly or not.

 

None of the churches I have ever been a member of or attended ever preached a prosperity gospel or something akin to that. I wouldn't stay at a church like that because in my eyes, that is false teaching.

May I ask what a 'prosperity gospel' is? I don't think I've ever heard that term.

 

I really wonder about the parish you attended so long ago. Sadly the 70s and 80s were times the Catholic church was sorely lacking in catechesis. My parents stopped attending for many years not too long after VII. The changes were too fast and too much to keep up with.

[HappyCrazyMama]

I believe you have a very skewed idea of both institutions.

:iagree: I am new to Orthodoxy but from what I can see if you took away the Bible there wouldn't be/ couldn't be a service at all. :confused:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I believe you have a very skewed idea of both institutions.

 

I don't believe I do. It really doesn't matter though, as you asked a question and I gave you your answer.

[mommaduck]

May I ask what a 'prosperity gospel' is? I don't think I've ever heard that term.

 

I really wonder about the parish you attended so long ago. Sadly the 70s and 80s were times the Catholic church was sorely lacking in catechesis. My parents stopped attending for many years after VII. The changes were too fast and too much to keep up with.

Prosperity Gospel: God wants you to have health and wealth! If you have enough faith, you also could have the big house, big car, private plane, etc. If you have enough faith, you will never be sick. If you are sick or poor, it's because you lack faith! Pray for it and God will give it to you! Don't you know, He's Santa in the sky?!

 

:glare:

[Mama2Many4]

I believe you have a very skewed idea of both institutions.

 

:iagree:

 

When I had my second child I had EXTREME PPD. Really bad. My DH couldn't work, and had to be by my side all the time. My parish stepped in a paid ALL of our bills, gave us gift cards for hundreds of dollars to the grocery store to feed us, and bought Christmas presents for my 2 kids. Lots of them! Doesn't sound to me like a political, money hungry establishment to me. I'm proud to be a Catholic Christian. I would NEVER leave my faith. I have never once felt like I was missing something or being taken advantage of.

[simka2]

I don't believe I do. It really doesn't matter though, as you asked a question and I gave you your answer.

 

But, you did not answer mine. ;)

[Mama2Many4]

Prosperity Gospel: God wants you to have health and wealth! If you have enough faith, you also could have the big house, big car, private plane, etc. If you have enough faith, you will never be sick. If you are sick or poor, it's because you lack faith! Pray for it and God will give it to you! Don't you know, He's Santa in the sky?!

 

:glare:

 

Hmm, you've gotta wonder why Jesus preached the Beatitudes at all then. :glare:

[amey311]

Prosperity Gospel: God wants you to have health and wealth! If you have enough faith, you also could have the big house, big car, private plane, etc. If you have enough faith, you will never be sick. If you are sick or poor, it's because you lack faith! Pray for it and God will give it to you! Don't you know, He's Santa in the sky?!

 

:glare:

 

Ahh yes. I label this as "God as Magic Genie." Rub your hands together and you get your wish! What happens when your wish is directly in conflict with someone else's?

[Parrothead]

Prosperity Gospel: God wants you to have health and wealth! If you have enough faith, you also could have the big house, big car, private plane, etc. If you have enough faith, you will never be sick. If you are sick or poor, it's because you lack faith! Pray for it and God will give it to you! Don't you know, He's Santa in the sky?!

 

:glare:

Oh, I dated a guy whose family believed that. I didn't have a name for it. His parents gave just about everything they had to their church and were just waiting for God to give them what was coming to them. :glare:

[justamouse]

I bolded the things I just cannot comprehend in your post. I do not know a God of Wrath. I have only ever known a God of Love. I always saw the foundation of the Gospel as God's amazing love for a broken sin sick humanity and His desire to see that healed.

 

Here is my understanding in a very simple illustration. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder/love_wins_an_orthodox_view_of_salvation

 

I do wish you the best on your spiritual journey. :grouphug:

 

That's the best vid. Chairs! Whodathunk?

[amey311]

Oh, I dated a guy whose family believed that. I didn't have a name for it. His parents gave just about everything they had to their church and were just waiting for God to give them what was coming to them. :glare:

 

I think this is what they're using as the basis for that: http://christianjourney.com/godsword/financiallyfaithful6.html

[ChocolateReignRemix]

***

Edited October 18, 2011 by ChocolateReignRemix
Post I responded to was deleted.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

what was in the cup that Jesus drank on the cross? When Jesus pleaded in the garden three times for his father to take the cup away from him and each time he also resigned "not my will but yours be done"- what was he asking for God to take from him. Did he sweat drops of blood because her was afraid of death? I don't think so.

 

It was the cup of God's wrath. Jesus was the mediator between us and God and he drank the cup of God's wrath that was OURS in order that God's justice be satisfied and we would be reconciled to God.

 

So many churches malign the character of God by only preaching a two dimensional picture of God. He is the Lion and the Lamb. He is both just and merciful. How could God be just and at the same time let wrong go unpunished?

 

The word wrath is mentioned 181 times in the Bible and many of those times it is refereing to God's wrath. If the church were to preach from the Word how could they avoid teaching on the wrath of God- especially in reference to the gospel?

 

John 3:36

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

 

Most of the time the wrath of God is kindled against his own people but he offers his mercy to all people Jew and Gentile, male and female. Those who love wrath, God will not deny them what they love. But if they love mercy they get mercy.

 

The wrath of God could not possibly be against Jesus because Jesus was perfect. But the wrath of man was against Jesus and that was what was in the cup. Jesus was going to experience the sins of the world and He did not look forward to it. But in the end He was able to say "forgive them".

 

God is not bound by some judicial code. I would not even say He is just (I pray He is not for my own sake) because He cannot be both just and merciful. I know He is merciful and His mercy is offered to everyone. However, if I know his mercy and I choose wrath anyway...Lord, have mercy on me.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Father of Pearl

[Parrothead]

I think this is what they're using as the basis for that: http://christianjourney.com/godsword/financiallyfaithful6.html

I'll take your word for it. :D

 

As much as religious studies are fascinating for me I'm just not interested in a 12 part lesson with testimonies and Studies at the end.

 

 

 

Oh, and just to make sure everyone is clear prosperity gospel isn't something the Catholic church teaches or preaches.

[amey311]

Yeah, I just remember hearing a friend talking about how whatever you put out is returned to you 100fold or something (so if you're in tremendous debt and having a hard time feeding your family, keep giving money to the church because SOME DAY that will be given back to you!).

 

I think they're using Mark 10:28-30 as the basis. I'm FAR from a Biblical scholar, though, so I'm not the best source.

 

That idea is used in business a lot, too ;) = Gotta spend money to make money!

[milovany]

I'll take your word for it. :D

 

As much as religious studies are fascinating for me I'm just not interested in a 12 part lesson with testimonies and Studies at the end.

 

Oh, and just to make sure everyone is clear prosperity gospel isn't something the Catholic church teaches or preaches.

 

We were "word of faith" (which is another name for prosperity gospel) for several years. I'm sure there are numerous people on this board who are as well. The rewards it offers (and which many experience, which are seen as "proof" that this faith style works) are appealing, to be sure. But to get there was extremely draining and self-focused. And many don't get there in the end; we never did "arrive" according to the WOF belief system (just by saying that, I've basically proven, according to WOF, that I didn't have a patient faith that waits for "the promise"). I'm sad for the havoc this belief system can wreak on someone's faith.

 

But more importantly is how you have to look at the "big picture" of church history in the WOF belief system. To believe this teaching, you have to believe the entire church pretty much went apostate from the time of Paul (who taught the prosperity gospel) until the mid or late 1800s, because that belief system did not exist in the church until this late point in time. There's an unspoken idea (well, maybe it IS spoken, I don't remember) that the Holy Spirit was bound up or something, and was set free through the faith of a few men and women a little over a hundred years ago. We just couldn't buy that anymore. God never abandoned his church.

Edited October 18, 2011 by milovaný

[justamouse]

Prosperity Gospel: God wants you to have health and wealth! If you have enough faith, you also could have the big house, big car, private plane, etc. If you have enough faith, you will never be sick. If you are sick or poor, it's because you lack faith! Pray for it and God will give it to you! Don't you know, He's Santa in the sky?!

 

:glare:

 

I know a woman who refused medical help and died because of that doctrine. I have a very angry response to all things name it and claim it. She could have been alive, loving her grandkids. She believed God was going to heal her all the way to the end. 11 years slowly dying of breast cancer.

 

OP, You know, I totally get that need for Wrath and Justice, because what you see around you is SO unjust. That baby in China got run over and your heart cries out and you want God to beat the snot out of those people who ran her over. You want the regime to topple so the one child law can change and these people can have a culture of life again.

 

You have a very sensitive heart, I totally understand. And, when you're in a church that focus' on God's wrath, sometimes you get this skewed view of who God is. Especially as you're so sensitive yourself. Hearing about His wrath speaks to the anger in you, the righteousness you want.

 

May I suggest that you take an alternate view of God? It will still speak to your justice and need of righteousnes, but through His goodness and love, not His judgment.

 

I agree with the Orthodox ladies, who said that God's love is a burning fire to those who refuse it, and warm and glowing to those who love Him. It's not His choice, it's ours. Here's a short vid on it-Is Hell Crowded or Empty

 

Another thing that struck me that I was recently learning, is what you sow, you'll reap, in that if you hear wrath and believe wrath, you'll see only wrath and want to see more wrath. That sowing and reaping pertains to what we sow in our hearts, too.

 

Blessings on your journey.

Edited October 18, 2011 by justamouse

[Parrothead]

We were "word of faith" (which is another name for prosperity gospel) for several years. I'm sure there are numerous people on this board who are as well. The rewards it offers (and which many experience, which are seen as "proof" that this faith style works) are appealing, to be sure. But to get there was extremely draining and self-focused. And many don't get there in the end; we never did "arrive" according to the WOF belief system (just by saying that, I've basically proven, according to WOF, that I didn't have a patient faith that waits for "the promise"). I'm sad for the havoc this belief system can wreak on someone's faith.

Was I offensive? I didn't mean to be. I apologize if I offended anyone with my comments.

[milovany]

Was I offensive? I didn't mean to be. I apologize if I offended anyone with my comments.

 

 

Oh, no, not at all! And I did change my wording some. I'm just letting you know, since you said you've never heard of it, that it's a pretty prevalent teaching in today's American evangelical church.

[Parrothead]

Oh, no! And I did change my wording some. No, not at all. I'm just letting you know it's a pretty prevalent teaching in today's American evangelical church.

Thanks.

[LittleIzumi]

Most of the time the wrath of God is kindled against his own people but he offers his mercy to all people Jew and Gentile, male and female. Those who love wrath, God will not deny them what they love. But if they love mercy they get mercy.

 

The wrath of God could not possibly be against Jesus because Jesus was perfect. But the wrath of man was against Jesus and that was what was in the cup. Jesus was going to experience the sins of the world and He did not look forward to it. But in the end He was able to say "forgive them".

 

God is not bound by some judicial code. I would not even say He is just (I pray He is not for my own sake) because He cannot be both just and merciful. I know He is merciful and His mercy is offered to everyone. However, if I know his mercy and I choose wrath anyway...Lord, have mercy on me.

 

I completely agree with the first two paragraphs. It always reminds me of tough love--like calling famines on those who have hardened their hearts to try and turn their hearts back to God in their extremity. It's not that God is mean, just like a parent is not mean when they have to use tough love on a child. It's that it is sometimes necessary for the greater good, to get through to us.

 

I do believe that God is bound by His own words--if He says Y is the consequence for X, then it is, but that is why He provided a Savior for us if we will repent and follow Him.

 

Another thing that struck me that I was recently learning, is what you sow, you'll reap, in that if you hear wrath and believe wrath, you'll see only wrath and want to see more wrath. That sowing and reaping pertains to what we sow in our hearts, too.

 

 

Excellent point.

[IrresistibleGrace]

Thank you to the original poster for taking the time to write this! I haven't read all the replies (there are so many!), but this is just what I needed as DH and I are seeking confirmation to move our family to Ohio to plant a church. Our desire is to take the Gospel to the lost, make disciples, and provide for them a Gospel-focused, God honoring church.

 

Of course we would freely welcome anyone who is looking for such a church. :D

 

I am truly sorry you are having such trouble in your church searching. The story of your 5yo just broke my heart!

[Carrie-txmama2six]

 

Anyone here check out Calvary Chapel churches and would be willing to share their experiences?

 

I was saved in a Calvary Chapel. I think it is a very good Bible teaching/preaching church. They teach verse by verse. I also do not like how they do not let young children in the service and at one time that would have been a deal breaker for me, but not so much anymore.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Carrie-txmama2six

[SKL]

Interesting. I take my kids to a Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) which is relatively conservative. I have several reasons for doing this. My parents took me to a Lutheran church, for one.

 

I would say we're not "seeker sensitive" much. You might try this denomination and see what you think.

 

I don't agree with everything said in church. However, somehow I feel more comfortable having my child hear something more conservative and telling her I differ in x way, than having her hear something liberal at church. (Does that make sense?)

 

The one thing that rubs me wrong, though, is that in the adult Sunday School classes where people speak their minds, I sense a bit of "we're better than other people." I may have some things right that others may have wrong, but I see that as me being blessed, not me being superiod. So to me, that looks like immaturity, and I've seen it in older folks who have been in the church for a long time, and occasionally even in the pastor.

 

But I still keep coming because I don't know of any better alternatives out there. And "perfect" is in Heaven.

[leeannpal]

Hmm... how to word this?

 

I'd be really hesitant to judge a church because of one couple's separation. And I'd be really hesitant to judge someone because they are separating. You have no idea what is happening in their world that might be the cause of this- and it may have an underlying cause that has nothing to do with (your perceived) lack of depth in their church.

 

It does sound like you're not in the best church situation for what you're desiring out of a church.

 

I've heard a few things that resonated with me on church sermons and worship. If you don't like the worship, the good news is you have 6 1/2 days to worship as you wish- you're only at church a few hours of the week, and your worship music can be whatever style you want for those 6 1/2 days. And for church sermons, Sunday morning should not be your Bible study. If you're expecting to get all of your spiritual food on Sunday morning, you will always be spiritually hungry.

 

YMMV. JMHO. Etc...

:iagree:

[MaryE]

I suggest looking into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS, aka Mormons). There is a wonderful website, http://www.mormon.org, that answers many questions about our faith.

 

The reason I suggest it in particular is b/c of the OP's desire to find a biblically based church (read: like the church was in Jesus' day). We believe that the fullness of the gospel was removed from the earth (apostasy) after the apostles' deaths, but that it was restored by God again in our day with all the authority in the ancient church, including a prophet and apostles. I believe wholeheartedly that God still speaks to man, that He provided us a Savior in His Son, Jesus Christ, and that He loves us all very much.

[Joanne]

I'm not going to address my opinion of the theology you are looking for; it would be contentious and not what I think you were looking for in response.

 

I *am* going to say, however, as a church going divorced, formerly homeschooling mom that you can't make any accurate assumptions about the couple, the marriage, or the church based on what you know of the situaiton. And that in most cases, it would be unkind and possibly hurtful to do so.

[Plucky]

I'm going to be one that appreciates having different denominations and churches. A church has been mentioned here that my family finally got out from under as it was very legalistic. The church we go to now and love some people here posted they would never attend. Ah, well. I think if you love Jesus that is all that matters.

[Joanne]

I'm going to be one that appreciates having different denominations and churches. A church has been mentioned here that my family finally got out from under as it was very legalistic. The church we go to now and love some people here posted they would never attend. Ah, well. I think if you love Jesus that is all that matters.

 

:iagree: I'll take it a step further. Not only do I agree, but I believe the theological and worship diversity is by Design.

 

The Bible is *ambiguous*. "You" can try to make it straightforward, clear, and inerrant. But it's not. ;)

 

In my Father's mansion, there are many rooms.

[Parker Martin]

On the topic of Prosperity Gospel teaching:

 

I'm just letting you know, since you said you've never heard of it, that it's a pretty prevalent teaching in today's American evangelical church.

 

I don't think that's true. I'd say it's pretty marginal. I've been to a lot of evangelical churches, and I've never heard it preached. Ever.

[Jean in Newcastle]

On the topic of Prosperity Gospel teaching:

 

 

 

I don't think that's true. I'd say it's pretty marginal. I've been to a lot of evangelical churches, and I've never heard it preached. Ever.

 

My impression (which may be wrong) is that it is more common in charismatic churches.

[Parker Martin]

I'm going to be one that appreciates having different denominations and churches.

 

Same. If your church teaches you to believe in, love, and live for Christ while dying to yourself, I've got no beef with your denomination.

[milovany]

My impression (which may be wrong) is that it is more common in charismatic churches.

 

Agreed and stand corrected. This is the circle we were in before converting to Orthodoxy.

[Hope in God]

Thank you to the original poster for taking the time to write this! I haven't read all the replies (there are so many!), but this is just what I needed as DH and I are seeking confirmation to move our family to Ohio to plant a church. Our desire is to take the Gospel to the lost, make disciples, and provide for them a Gospel-focused, God honoring church.

 

Of course we would freely welcome anyone who is looking for such a church. :D

 

I am truly sorry you are having such trouble in your church searching. The story of your 5yo just broke my heart!

 

Thank-you for this post. :)

[Hope in God]

I'm going to be one that appreciates having different denominations and churches. A church has been mentioned here that my family finally got out from under as it was very legalistic. The church we go to now and love some people here posted they would never attend. Ah, well. I think if you love Jesus that is all that matters.

 

I really do agree with you on this as far as people needing a place to heal from a legalistic church or people needing to heal from the harm of an overly liberal church. Sometimes it really does help to find a church with a different perspective but I do think that all perspectives should be in line with the true gospel.

[Hope in God]

On the topic of Prosperity Gospel teaching:

 

 

 

I don't think that's true. I'd say it's pretty marginal. I've been to a lot of evangelical churches, and I've never heard it preached. Ever.

 

I think it is more the mega churches that go prosperity. Joel Osteen is one. My sister attended a mega church in Singapore that was also blatantly prosperity focused. I think they raised 21 million dollars in 24 hours for the new church building fund!!! The pastor's salary is $500,000 yearly.