Educational philosophies: Are these mutually exclusive?

[Crissy]

Some of us are adamant about giving our children tools and resources to discover the world around them, to ignite a fire within them, to give them a passion for learning.

 

And there are those of us who are clear that we will be studying Latin early, memorizing poetry, and cracking the math text book every day.

 

Are these two ideas completely incompatible? Can the academic/text book minded family not light that same fire and give their children a passion for learning?

Is a child less likely to the thrilled with the discoveries he makes outdoors if he does a Latin lesson before he heads out for a nature walk?

 

Am I wrong to believe that we can instill a love of education and discovery in our children at the same time we include academically rigorous programs in their studies?

I have read some threads over the years that lead me to believe that some folks see this as an either/or proposition, and I've been wondering lately about these philosophies.

 

What do you think?

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't think they are mutually exclusive at all.

[Jenny in Atl]

Neither me... I think with balance both are attainable

[clwcain]

I don't think they are mutually exclusive at all.

 

:iagree: (as an aside, I find I do this a lot with Mrs. Mungo. ;))

 

I do think, however, that there is an unbridgeable chasm between those who view education as helping the child find his natural genius (a la Rousseau and much modern/postmodern education theory), and those who view it as active formation of character (the Aristotelian view, for lack of a better summary term).

[percytruffle]

I don't think they are mutually exclusive. For some families, as you pointed out, they are, but I don't think they have to be. "Drill and kill" is a saying for a reason, but high learning expectations are not necessarily going to fall into this category. Actually, TWTM method of focusing on the best educational choices may leave more time in a child's life for exploration than a mediocre method where you feel you are always playing catch-up and switching curriculums constantly with no focus.

 

In our homeschool we did plenty of "real" work and also had plenty of time to explore. I suppose I am not as strict in my approach as some, but I am certainly not a relaxed homeschooler. We aren't aiming at Harvard, but we are aiming at doing the best we can with what we've been given and hopefully rising above what we thought we could achieve. Success breeds success. As an adult I need goals in my life if I'm going to get anywhere, but I also weave enough time into my life for exploration, for lighting the fires and keeping them stoked.

 

The older I become the more I realize that moderation in all things, education included, is usually best for the whole, well-rounded person. This realization relieves stress and increases joy and creativity.

 

You remember best what you are interested in, but you will remember nothing if you are never encouraged to investigate in the first place.

[Mamagistra]

Am I wrong to believe that we can instill a love of education and discovery in our children at the same time we include academically rigorous programs in their studies?

 

You are not wrong; this is my goal. :001_smile:

[Jenny in Atl]

You are not wrong; this is my goal. :001_smile:

 

I think that's why many of us are here... to learn how to do this from each other. :cheers2:

[nancypants]

Well, we're trying to do both. (Well... we are not heavily into Latin yet...) I want both so I strive to accomplish both.

 

But hee hee... we're on vacation right now so that is why I've been killing an inordinate amount of time here instead of cracking those books! :lol: They are spending at least half of every day outside right now and loving every minute (as am I!) :D

[Jill- OK]

You are not wrong; this is my goal. :001_smile:

 

:)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Some of us are adamant about giving our children tools and resources to discover the world around them, to ignite a fire within them, to give them a passion for learning.

 

And there are those of us who are clear that we will be studying Latin early, memorizing poetry, and cracking the math text book every day.

 

Are these two ideas completely incompatible? Can the academic/text book minded family not light that same fire and give their children a passion for learning?

Is a child less likely to the thrilled with the discoveries he makes outdoors if he does a Latin lesson before he heads out for a nature walk?

 

Am I wrong to believe that we can instill a love of education and discovery in our children at the same time we include academically rigorous programs in their studies?

I have read some threads over the years that lead me to believe that some folks see this as an either/or proposition, and I've been wondering lately about these philosophies.

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

I've read that "education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire." And I don't think that's quite accurate. It think without fuel, there's no fire no matter how many sparks get lit. Maybe the bucket is being filled with kindling and twigs and firewood. And my opinion is that you better fill that bucket or there's gonna be no fire.

 

I guarantee you -- my kids would have ended up exactly like me when they hit high school had they had the same pitiful drops in their educational "buckets" that I had when *I* hit high school. Instead, they had math and Latin and history and grammar and logic and extensive literature study and work ethic. Ds, in addition, had music and science and travel. The fire that is burning now is lovely for mom to see and made possible bit by bit because of the time they took earlier regularly building a strong foundation of solid education.

[Crissy]

I've read that "education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire." And I don't think that's quite accurate. It think without fuel, there's no fire no matter how many sparks get lit. Maybe the bucket is being filled with kindling and twigs and firewood. And my opinion is that you better fill that bucket or there's gonna be no fire.

 

I guarantee you -- my kids would have ended up exactly like me when they hit high school had they had the same pitiful drops in their educational "buckets" that I had when *I* hit high school. Instead, they had math and Latin and history and grammar and logic and extensive literature study and work ethic. Ds, in addition, had music and science and travel. The fire that is burning now is lovely for mom to see and made possible bit by bit because of the time they took earlier regularly building a strong foundation of solid education.

 

Beautifully put, Pam. Thank you.

 

You've given me a new way to view our method, and I am confident that we are on the right track.

[angela in ohio]

It's a false dichotomy.

 

I have often told people what Pam said - with no kindling, it doesn't matter what you do to light a fire. My dc are the most over-worked :D kiddos I know (according to others.) They also have the strongest desire to learn of most dc I meet.

 

I used to post on threads where people stereotype dc who have a rigorous education, but I gave up long ago, as it is hard to defend my position without sounding like I'm bragging on my dc. :001_smile:

[Kimber]

I love some of Queen's homeschool products, some of Ambleside online, and many living books, and apologia science for kids, and all things that are CMish. But CM I am not. I do not know how to instill love of education and learning by walking outside for nature walks or studying art or listening to classical music. On nature walks I amtoo overcome by bugs, and the unseen snake under the rock, and the possible dog that might come bounding around the corner. I'd rather listen to Marvin Gaye, Sam Cook, Cuban music, jazz, or a program on philosophy.

 

To me instilling a love of learning is done by personally being excited by an idea or a fact and passing that knowledge on to my kids and by being true to myself.

 

I am all for discovery, too. I even let my kids randomly mix food in the kitchen to see what it will look like. I let them play with flour and then roll around on the floor in it. But I can not tell you how it stresses me it out to be told to let my kids play and discover rather than teach them Latin or math or writing or that they're too young for a certain kind of learning. There are message boards I would never even consider using because there is too much push to be more like CM.

 

Maybe this isn't even related, but my goal is to teach my kids to love learning the way I do. My whole life is focused on learning and if I'm not learning, I feel lost. So I'm trying to pass on that passion. And I can't do it like CM. I'm more of a classical kind of gal, but, of course, SWB I'm not either. So I am learning to find my own way.

[Rosie_0801]

In my opinion books tell you what to notice when you go out, have a conversation with someone, or read a different book.

 

A friend of mine was going to England, without any knowledge of history at all. I expressed horror at her attitude that she'd "pick it up as she went along," and made her spend an afternoon in the library with me. I could just imagine her going to Westminster abbey and wandering around saying "Uh-huh. Lots of dead people." I haven't been to Westminster, but I've been to Krakow's equivelent. I'm sure I'd have been saying "Uh-huh. Lots of dead people," if I hadn't read any Polish history. Instead I wandered around in raptures because *that* was the grave of my SCA persona's king.

:)

Rosie

[Peela]

I see the "rigorous education" part as developing the skills in my children to appreciate the vast world they are part of- the art, the literature, the philosophy, the religions, the diversity, the history of their own culture, the appreciation of others' cultures, languages, nature, their own gifts.....and be able to interact with this world with the greatest potential to live their own potential.

So I guess I see it as laying in front of them the smörgåsbord of life, and giving them the tools to appreciate it, and give back to it, to find their highest calling.

For me, its not really about career training as much as life training. So, I dont want to burn them out, and I think if I pushed too hard, I would. They would shut down. They don't love all their schoolwork. But, they love parts, like parts, tolerate parts...they don't truly dislike much, I don't think. Sometimes things they learn in school trigger off passions in them. They both love to read. I dont expect them to love their learning though, they still have to do it anyway.

I try and keep academic schooling in balance with outdoor life, social life, rest, creative pursuits, and their other passions.

So no, its not an either/or scenario, but I do believe that its possible to overvalue academic knowledge, and outward achievement, and undervalue other parts of our beings, and I endeavor not to do that. Balance.

[Trivium Academy]

Some of us are adamant about giving our children tools and resources to discover the world around them, to ignite a fire within them, to give them a passion for learning.

 

And there are those of us who are clear that we will be studying Latin early, memorizing poetry, and cracking the math text book every day.

 

Are these two ideas completely incompatible? Can the academic/text book minded family not light that same fire and give their children a passion for learning?

Is a child less likely to the thrilled with the discoveries he makes outdoors if he does a Latin lesson before he heads out for a nature walk?

 

Am I wrong to believe that we can instill a love of education and discovery in our children at the same time we include academically rigorous programs in their studies?

I have read some threads over the years that lead me to believe that some folks see this as an either/or proposition, and I've been wondering lately about these philosophies.

 

What do you think?

 

I only say that we have a certain type of philosophy to share with others what type of homeschool we have based on popular perceptions. Only those willing to get to know us will see what type we truly are, what we value, how we apply philosophies in our own environment.

 

I think everything is possible but when a fellow hsler says, "we use all ABeka" my mind automatically goes to "they do hours of seatwork" or if they were to say they were classical I would assume that they value Latin/Greek studies, reading higher quality books and memorization.

 

The meshing of philosophies is not incompatible, it's the perceptions of others that is incompatible with our daily reality. You cannot truly know someone based on a blurb of what their homeschool is like.

 

I value Charlotte Mason's writings and ideas because they speak my heart the most of my hopes and dreams for my children, does it mean we're doing everything exactly as CM prescribes? Heck no. The same with any type of educational philosophy but when someone says that they follow a certain type, I conclude that they follow the main tenets of that philosophy.

 

I didn't read what others wrote in this thread, which might be the same as I just said. I embrace labeling us with a philosophy in a way to communicate to other hslers quickly what our homeschool is like. A lot of the minute details get left out.

 

:) Just adding my thoughts.

[Mama Lynx]

I've read that "education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire." And I don't think that's quite accurate. It think without fuel, there's no fire no matter how many sparks get lit. Maybe the bucket is being filled with kindling and twigs and firewood. And my opinion is that you better fill that bucket or there's gonna be no fire.

 

I guarantee you -- my kids would have ended up exactly like me when they hit high school had they had the same pitiful drops in their educational "buckets" that I had when *I* hit high school. Instead, they had math and Latin and history and grammar and logic and extensive literature study and work ethic. Ds, in addition, had music and science and travel. The fire that is burning now is lovely for mom to see and made possible bit by bit because of the time they took earlier regularly building a strong foundation of solid education.

 

:iagree: Many times in my life I've realized that an experience would have been richer, more meaningful; that I could have done something differently; that another path could have been open to me; that I would have chosen differently, or understood better, if only my education had been better. And I don't at all mean if only I had more skills, or better training or high attainments. I mean if only my schools had actually assigned us the classics, or taught us history, or logic.

 

That's my goal, Crissy. To fill that bucket with nice firewood, so that the sparks will catch, and the fire will burn nice and hot. (How far can we take this metaphor? Will there be steaks?)

[Mamagistra]

So I guess I see it as laying in front of them the smörgåsbord of life, and giving them the tools to appreciate it, and give back to it, to find their highest calling.

 

For me, its not really about career training as much as life training.

 

Balance.

 

:iagree: What she said! :)

[Mamagistra]

:iagree: Many times in my life I've realized that an experience would have been richer, more meaningful; that I could have done something differently; that another path could have been open to me; that I would have chosen differently, or understood better, if only my education had been better. And I don't at all mean if only I had more skills, or better training or high attainments. I mean if only my schools had actually assigned us the classics, or taught us history, or logic.

 

That's my goal, Crissy. To fill that bucket with nice firewood, so that the sparks will catch, and the fire will burn nice and hot. (How far can we take this metaphor? Will there be steaks?)

 

:iagree: :) And yes to the steaks. ;)

[clwcain]

:iagree: :) And yes to the steaks. ;)

 

I'll bring what's needed for s'mores and, if anyone wants, sing the Illiad and the Aeneid (although I'll need to brush up on them -- it's been years).

[mcconnellboys]

I think that academic rigor does help to instill a life-long love of learning - but a lifetime is a long, long time.... A grumpy teen may not admit - or even be consciously aware of - the fact that they love learning - until they come up against a lifestyle that is not built around learning, or have to partake in "learning" that is not rigorous - but when they do, sparks tend to fly as the ideas about all these propositions spew forth from them, LOL!

[clwcain]

I think that academic rigor does help to instill a life-long love of learning - but a lifetime is a long, long time.... A grumpy teen may not admit - or even be consciously aware of - the fact that they love learning - until they come up against a lifestyle that is not built around learning, or have to partake in "learning" that is not rigorous - but when they do, sparks tend to fly as the ideas about all these propositions spew forth from them, LOL!

 

AMEN! Sing it! :D

 

I could go on at length about how true that is, but I suspect most of you know. And I loathe being tedioius... ;)

[LibraryLover]

Now you understand why so many unschooler types (like me) come here. :D

[Crissy]

Now you understand why so many unschooler types (like me) come here. :D

 

Yes, I do. :D

 

Thank you all for helping me mull this over. You've made some wonderful points, and given me...well...validation. And who doesn't love that? ;)

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, absolutely, there will be steaks...

 

When my son told me about some of the things he wrote for his honors history final a couple of days ago, it was just like big juicy steaks sizzling on the fire. His initial contention was that he'd just bs'd the test. But when he told me what he'd actually said, my response was "but that's all very real". "Yeah, but *everyone* knows that," he replied, as if this meant he'd cheated in some way. Ummm, no, everyone does not know that if their lifestyle has not given them that knowledge....

 

This is about the hundredth instance of this kind of thing dawning on him during this past school year, since he's gone back into a private school. I love seeing him begin to realize what his home education time means in terms of knowledge he can apply in the wider world - and that's now happening in the arena of his associations with friends, his volunteer work, and other areas, as well as at school. (And his score on the test was rilly, rilly good, too - which also has me excited! I don't care a whit about grades, but I like to see him be successful....)

[WTMindy]

Yes, I do. :D

 

Thank you all for helping me mull this over. You've made some wonderful points, and given me...well...validation. And who doesn't love that? ;)

 

Great question. I sure hope that is what I am doing. Because, all the Latin in the world doesn't really mean much to me if my kids don't have some internal desire to learn. I keep a close watch on my kid's "love-of-learning-meter" to make sure I am never killing their joy of learning with my "big plans." So far, so good....but they haven't turned into teens yet. :001_smile:

[mcconnellboys]

But that's precisely it: Your whole life is focused on learning and I think that's what all of us here have in common.

 

Some people (like the Holts) understand how to beautifully incorporate learning into every aspect of daily life and can raise tremendously powerful and intelligent unschooled thinkers.

For others, who can't imagine going out and doing school in that way, "school" may look more like the work from books or look more rigid and structured. Either way, it doesn't have to mean that the children are restricted, bored, gasping for a breath of fresh air, or left behind in some way.

 

Each family can develop the method that works best for both the instructor/mentor who will help pass along the info and for the student who will absorb that info. My boys don't hate or avoid books. They didn't read early. We do a ton of written work as well as reading. And they also do group activities (mostly athletic type things) with others daily. They have a balance in their lives that is not overly oppressive to them.

 

While I would love to say I have achieved any successes they've had through the methods of someone like a John Holt, I'm not that brilliant. I don't know how to and can't see myself ever doing things his way. I greatly admire those who can, but I have to stumble on with my own little half-measure and try to do the best that *I* can do to instill a lifelong love of learning in my children.

[WTMCassandra]

Crissy, there's some great food for thought on this thread. Thanks for bringing this up. I think both are needed--discipline and passion. You know how they say that you don't really "enjoy" something until you are good at it? The discipline comes first, and the enjoyment follows. Playing the piano is a classic example--the early years of practice were pretty tortuous, but now after about five years, my DD is beginning to enjoy it. DS enjoys it too.

 

Also, sometimes children seek the "lowest common denominator" or just want to play all of the time. Sometimes their views are just plain skewed!

 

For example, if you ask them, my children will say that they dislike math. But the reality is once they get started on an assignment, they are often smiling, and they will stop and tell me something that strikes them funny or neat about an answer. Also, they are good at computation, and DS in particular is quite quick to catch on to concepts. Math is only tortuous if they make careless errors and have to redo. Also, I think they don't like having to do it everyday. BUT the reality is they enjoy it once they get into it.

 

I think the building of a fire is an 18-20 year job. Children are normally too undisciplined to really pursue a passion. They need to build the discipline when they are young so they will have the fortitude to really follow the passions as they develop.

 

Of course, balance is called for. I try to make learning pleasant when possible (although I am an anti-project mom). If they really hate a book (very rare), I don't make them finish it. I try to give breaks and occasional mornings off (like this morning--it's the first sunny day in weeks). But they know we will consistently do school and I will consistently expect their best work. Sometimes they are not thrilled when we start a subject, but almost inevitably they will get "into it" and actually enjoy it. They just need that initial "push" to begin.

 

And you've met them--I hope they don't seem repressed ; ).

 

Your boys are great. How many boys discuss Latin cases over lunch? We had such a great time at your home. I think you are doing a tremendous job with your sons.

 

(And, from yesterday, I bet your DH didn't even think twice about those skimpily-clad cheerleaders. He probably was thinking how young and giggly and silly they were ; ). How could he desire them when he has such an attractive, vivaceous, gracious helpmeet? You've got the looks, the figure, the cooking charisma, and the Photoshop skills, all in one.)

[gardenschooler]

That saying has always baffled me. Thank you for your take on it, Pam.

Filling the bucket and lighting the fire is necessary, IMO.

 

 

I've read that "education is not the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire." And I don't think that's quite accurate. It think without fuel, there's no fire no matter how many sparks get lit. Maybe the bucket is being filled with kindling and twigs and firewood. And my opinion is that you better fill that bucket or there's gonna be no fire.

 

I guarantee you -- my kids would have ended up exactly like me when they hit high school had they had the same pitiful drops in their educational "buckets" that I had when *I* hit high school. Instead, they had math and Latin and history and grammar and logic and extensive literature study and work ethic. Ds, in addition, had music and science and travel. The fire that is burning now is lovely for mom to see and made possible bit by bit because of the time they took earlier regularly building a strong foundation of solid education.

[Vicki]

We combine both. We always have. When we started homeschooling in 1986 we used all A Beka. We did delight directed learning. After we completed our school work for the day we studied whatever my oldest was interested in. We read every book we could find, watched videos on his interest, sometimes cooked or made posters about his favorite topic. We went to museums and on field trips. It worked in our family.

God bless,

Vicki