Instilling discipline, work ethic...

[ebunny]

Hi..It's me again

 

I don't know if this is the right place for this thread..

Anyways, I need suggestions on instilling work discipline for an advanced learner.

 

I haven't yet discovered what DD's learning styles are..it's just that she is NOT detail oriented and tends to skim over things 'she' considers trivial. Paradoxically, she can sit for 2 hours and persist in solving complex word problems in pre-algebra/pore over encyclopedias.

 

So, I'm having trouble getting her to do activities that she considers 'boring' or 'not fun'. Like memorizing the multiplication table. Some level of automation is needed when one goes on to do higher math. Or doing multi digit subtraction drills. She knows how, but she doesn't care enough to gain mastery over it.

 

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I feel that she has to understand the importance of mastering the details before she moves on to the bigger picture.

 

And scheduling formal study is getting to be a bit of a hassle. What kind of schedule did/do you follow with a 6 yr old?

[lewelma]

My ds did NOT master any computational math before moving on to algebra. He could do all the computation, he was just slow because he had not truly mastered the material. Try to get him to do repetition was a "no go." He just could. not. do. it. I tell people it is like proof reading a phone book, even if you have good intentions, it is just too boring. This is why AoPS Algebra has taken him 2.5 years. While he has been doing algebra, he has been memorizing his times tables, and improving his computational skills because I don't let him use a calculator. His path is not usual, but it can be done. From age 9.5 to his 12th b-day he will have done algebra concurrently with improving his computational skills. This approach has left my ds(11) with a wonderful drive, focus, and energy for math which , over time, has oozed into most of his subjects.

 

Instilling a work ethic IMHO should be done with material that is appropriate to their level. All life has drudgery in it, but I believe in igniting the fire first.

 

Ruth

Edited September 16, 2011 by lewelma

[QueenieReighn]

Our daughter uses xtramath.org do memorize math facts. I tell her she can do the "fun" math after she does a little of the xtramath and I tell her to try to beat her old score, which she likes because it makes a graph of the kids progress so she can see herself get better. If you list the child as being in 4th grade, it works its way through all 4 types (+, -, x, /)and you can adjust how quickly a child has to answer to get a smiley face on the problem. Also, it's the only thing our daughter uses the computer for right now so she thinks of that as an honor. :-)

[Mandy in TN]

And scheduling formal study is getting to be a bit of a hassle. What kind of schedule did/do you follow with a 6 yr old?

Every child learns differently and at a different pace, but with these accelerated children the differences can be extreme. What worked with my little guy may be totally inappropriate for your dd. Also, I have to say that fairly frequently during our few years of official schooling I have doubted what we were doing. You know your child. Go with your gut and know that at some point you will probably doubt if it was right.

 

FWIW, my dh played all kinds of domino, dice, and card games with our son. They made up their own games and changed them every time they played. My son also does Kumon, because speed and accuracy are biggies with me. However, he really learned his math facts while playing games with his dad. My dh always included crazy, loud things like slamming the domino down on the table or hollering out ridiculous things if they got a certain number. They would get so loud shouting and laughing that I would go upstairs.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[ebunny]

My ds did NOT master any computational math before moving on to algebra. He could do all the computation, he was just slow because he had not truly mastered the material. Try to get him to do repetition was a "no go." He just could. not. do. it. I tell people it is like proof reading a phone book, even if you have good intentions, it is just too boring. This is why AoPS Algebra has taken him 2.5 years. While he has been doing algebra, he has been memorizing his times tables, and improving his computational skills because I don't let him use a calculator. His path is not usual, but it can be done. From age 9.5 to his 12th b-day he will have done algebra concurrently with improving his computational skills. This approach has left my ds(11) with a wonderful drive, focus, and energy for math which , over time, has oozed into most of his subjects.

 

Instilling a work ethic IMHO should be done with material that is appropriate to their level. All life has drudgery in it, but I believe in igniting the fire first.

 

Ruth

Hmm..you've given me a lot to think about.

 

I think it's probably me, having studied math the conventional way, who is uncomfortable with the thought of 5 years of math running parallel to each other. :001_huh:.

[ebunny]

Our daughter uses xtramath.org do memorize math facts. I tell her she can do the "fun" math after she does a little of the xtramath and I tell her to try to beat her old score, which she likes because it makes a graph of the kids progress so she can see herself get better. If you list the child as being in 4th grade, it works its way through all 4 types (+, -, x, /)and you can adjust how quickly a child has to answer to get a smiley face on the problem. Also, it's the only thing our daughter uses the computer for right now so she thinks of that as an honor. :-)

That's a great tip! thanks :-)

Edited September 16, 2011 by ebunny
@ queeniereighn

[ebunny]

Also, I have to say that fairly frequently during our few years of official schooling I have doubted what we were doing. You know your child. Go with your gut and know that at some point you will probably doubt if it was right

 

Thanks..this helps.

[Cera]

My daughter was able to memorize all of her addition and subtraction facts by simply drilling them when she wasn't paying attention. I excluded all of the ones she knew and then made a list and just started at the top. We focused on a few at a time and swapped them out for new ones to learn once she had them memorized.

 

I never actually had her sit down and practice the ones we were working on I would just ask them throughout the day (in the grocery store line, as she walked by to get a snack, while pushing her on the swings, etc). The vast majority took only a few days to memorize and we are now almost through memorizing the multiplication and division facts the same way (she is almost 7) and I am have started back at the beginning with kid number 2.

[kiana]

My ds did NOT master any computational math before moving on to algebra. He could do all the computation, he was just slow because he had not truly mastered the material. Try to get him to do repetition was a "no go." He just could. not. do. it. I tell people it is like proof reading a phone book, even if you have good intentions, it is just too boring. This is why AoPS Algebra has taken him 2.5 years. While he has been doing algebra, he has been memorizing his times tables, and improving his computational skills because I don't let him use a calculator. His path is not usual, but it can be done. From age 9.5 to his 12th b-day he will have done algebra concurrently with improving his computational skills. This approach has left my ds(11) with a wonderful drive, focus, and energy for math which , over time, has oozed into most of his subjects.

 

Instilling a work ethic IMHO should be done with material that is appropriate to their level. All life has drudgery in it, but I believe in igniting the fire first.

 

Ruth

 

This is essentially what my mother did with me. I got them mostly down during pre-algebra and finished during algebra 1 and 2, which were all done without access to a calculator.

 

I still didn't develop enough of a work ethic, but stopping on facts until I had them mastered would have just developed an incredible degree of sullenness and dislike of math (in MY personal case).

 

YMMV.

[LittleIzumi]

You have to be sneaky about it and practice the mundane stuff with games, etc. ;) At least that has worked for my son.

 

Most 6 year olds are probably not disciplined.

 

And as others have suggested it is ok to move on and practice that stuff at the same time.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Dmmetler]

What works best for my DD is for her to play school with her toys-so we'll print off little worksheets (e-books with a laser printer) and she'll go through and "help" her class do them, then grades them. (I don't grade her work, but she grades theirs :) ). It's amazing how much math facts practice a 6 yr old does when she's helping 10 stuffed dragons do their math homework. I bought a bunch of workbooks at 75% off at Borders, too-mostly 3rd-6th grade "summer review" types, and she's using them to teach her classes as well.

 

This works for memory work, too-if I make flashcards for her to use, she'll happily teach her dragons timeline dates, Latin vocabulary, or whatever else-and end up learning them herself as she does it, with no tears or complaints.

 

And then, we can spend our school time doing the stuff that's new, challenging, and fun-which ends up being a win for both of us.

 

So, for my daughter, getting her to practice the tedious, boring stuff is a matter of giving her teaching materials, a class, and spending a day turning cardboard boxes into desks :). I don't know how long this will work, but maybe it will hold her until she grows up a little bit. Or maybe she'll be teaching her dragons Fourier Analysis and combinatorics.

[gracyomalley]

What I have done with my middle, who decided that she wasn't good at math because she didn't want to focus on facts, was switch originally to MM, which used higher level problem solving even in the early years, and then we just skipped from 4th grade mm to saxon 7/6...I know, saxon causes great groans, but for her, by skipping several levels, she is doing lots of higher conceptual stuff, but still has to do several long division problems, etc, each lesson....we'll see how it goes, but she likes learning from her own book, also...

 

As far as true "work ethic", I think it comes more from having these kids have something they care about but have to be diligent about, than endless drill....Now that my kids have "learned" that practice in violin, and 100s of back handsprings in a row makes them better musicians and gymnasts, they also can at least see the point of repetition to mastery in schoolwork....but when younger, unless it was "fun" for them (as in math for youngest...), it was meaningless drudgery...

 

Mix in drill with higher math, keep your child involved in many things, some of which she is good at naturally, some that require true WORK to master....lessons learned there will transfer to other tasks with maturity.

Erin

[Crimson Wife]

What finally worked for DD to buckle down and finish memorizing the times tables was DH playing "bad cop" and suspending her screen privileges until she had them learned by heart. That was the kick in the pants she needed to actually get it done.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I don't know if this will help, but with my dd I just make up little bags with work in them. Each bag has about ten minutes worth of work.

 

She gets to choose what bag to do, the only point being that she has to complete them all during the day- so she gets to choose what order to work them out.

 

Sometimes kids just aren't "in the mood" for one particular sort of work, but will jump at another kind.

 

Just as an experiment, let her create the work kits and see what she comes up with. Maybe some very small treat at the end of completion might motivate her?

 

Like a prize at the bottom of a cracker jack box.

[kiana]

It's amazing how much math facts practice a 6 yr old does when she's helping 10 stuffed dragons do their math homework.

 

Your dd is awesome.

 

That is all. :)

[ebunny]

Thanks for all the great suggestions! It helps tremendously to know that I'm not alone..:)

 

A significant part of my problem is that I'm homeschooling my DD in a country where it is NOT the norm..and the education standards are set pretty high. I see my daughters friends (same age) diligently work through math drills, without complaining or whining about it. I suppose one could put it down to the Asian/Indian culture.

 

I mean, I've been there, done that..it's drudgery for sure, but it's traditional and it *works*, iykwim.

 

So, it's also a lack of confidence in my skills as a guide/teacher in a highly competitive environment that's causing me to second guess *everything* I'm doing with DD. :confused:

[Truscifi]

We did math games on the computer at that age, and also flash cards - I set the timer for 3 minutes and he did as many as he could in that time. He was always trying to beat his best score, so it was fun for him.

 

I have to say he is almost 8 now and I have noticed a huge difference this year in both his retention of and willingness to practice math facts. It may just be a matter of time for your dd, in which case I would not hold her back from higher level concepts while you wait for her to be ready for the memory work.

[Tracy]

I just want to say that when I was in high school, I took a lot of higher math. I was "supposed" to memorize the quadratic equation. In my mind, it was easier to derive than to memorize. I still did the problems and was at the top of my class. I just took a couple of extra minutes for each test to figure out that formula. I suppose that if I had used it more, it eventually would have stuck.

 

I have seen so many homeschooling parents say that their dc did not memorize multiplication tables until they they needed them--for example, for algebra. I am not sure that it is true that the dc should memorize them before moving to higher math if the dc is able to understand the multiplication problems and come up with the right answer, especially for one as young as 6yo.

 

As for discipline and work ethic, there is very little that my dd6 does on her own. I instill a work ethic by doing things with her and developing positive emotions around those tasks. I wrote a post on my blog about this subject. The list of things I expect to do on her own is pretty short--get dressed, brush teeth, make bed, read a book. That is it. But there are a whole slew of things that we do together--laundry, cleaning the bathroom, washing the floor, math, history, science, art, spelling, etc. Some of them she enjoys and some of them not so much. The less she enjoys it, the more we do it together, and the more I push myself to try to make it fun (something I really suck at).

 

 

You also asked about scheduling. I found that having a precise schedule by hour did not work for us very well. While I am not an unschooler by any definition, I did want her to have plenty of time to pursue her own interests. When dd6 decided to pretend to rescue the infant King of Norway (a book we had read), I couldn't let her do that if I had a schedule looming over me. So what I did was put each item we do in a week on a business card. I laminated each one and put velcro on the back. Then I laminated a long strip of cardstock and put velcro on that. (I can post pics if anyone is interested.) That way, I can stick up the things that have to be done that day (including chores), and she can take the cards down as we do them. When she is done, she is able to watch TV or play on the computer. We traditionally do the most important things right away in the morning. This has helped me to get everything done without overscheduling.

[acurtis75]

I would agree with a lot of what's been said on this thread about learning math but I also think it's important to train a child to be discplined and to have a work ethic. I wasn't ever trained in those areas and found college and adult life to be quite an adjustment. My dd6 is not naturally discplined but I have a goal of improving her work ethic incrementally. We use kitchen timers and set goals..."let's see if you can finish this math page in 5 minutes before the timer goes off without getting distracted." She's still distracted a lot...because she's 6...but at least she knows we value work ethic and it's something we need to work on and improve.

[ebunny]

I love all the great ideas and tips.. DD teaching math to her toys, making small bags of 5 min drills, using math games..!:thumbup1:

 

I would agree with a lot of what's been said on this thread about learning math but I also think it's important to train a child to be discplined and to have a work ethic. I wasn't ever trained in those areas and found college and adult life to be quite an adjustment. My dd6 is not naturally discplined but I have a goal of improving her work ethic incrementally. We use kitchen timers and set goals..."let's see if you can finish this math page in 5 minutes before the timer goes off without getting distracted." She's still distracted a lot...because she's 6...but at least she knows we value work ethic and it's something we need to work on and improve.

We did math games on the computer at that age, and also flash cards - I set the timer for 3 minutes and he did as many as he could in that time. He was always trying to beat his best score, so it was fun for him.

Kitchen timers are a great idea for getting children used to timed tests!. My DD hates them with a passion because she prefers taking her own time to do something and goes at her own pace. Getting her to complete on time is what we need to work on..among other things.

 

He would seem to have memorized the facts after 10 minutes of playing a game using them. The next day they would be forgotten. Lately he has had to use them a lot in his day to day math practice and I'm noticing he is becoming quicker with them. It seems to be easier when he is using them regularly. Just trying to memorize them didn't do much

That's my DD too.

 

So what I did was put each item we do in a week on a business card. I laminated each one and put velcro on the back. Then I laminated a long strip of cardstock and put velcro on that. (I can post pics if anyone is interested.) That way, I can stick up the things that have to be done that day (including chores), and she can take the cards down as we do them. When she is done, she is able to watch TV or play on the computer. We traditionally do the most important things right away in the morning. This has helped me to get everything done without overscheduling.

I would LOVE to see a picture!

 

Mix in drill with higher math, keep your child involved in many things, some of which she is good at naturally, some that require true WORK to master....lessons learned there will transfer to other tasks with maturity.

Thanks for this very important reminder.

[Tracy]

I would LOVE to see a picture!

 

Here they are!

 

 

 

 

[Storm Bay]

Hi..It's me again

 

I don't know if this is the right place for this thread..

Anyways, I need suggestions on instilling work discipline for an advanced learner.

 

I haven't yet discovered what DD's learning styles are..it's just that she is NOT detail oriented and tends to skim over things 'she' considers trivial. Paradoxically, she can sit for 2 hours and persist in solving complex word problems in pre-algebra/pore over encyclopedias.

 

So, I'm having trouble getting her to do activities that she considers 'boring' or 'not fun'. Like memorizing the multiplication table. Some level of automation is needed when one goes on to do higher math. Or doing multi digit subtraction drills. She knows how, but she doesn't care enough to gain mastery over it.

 

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I feel that she has to understand the importance of mastering the details before she moves on to the bigger picture.

 

And scheduling formal study is getting to be a bit of a hassle. What kind of schedule did/do you follow with a 6 yr old?

 

At 6 my dc did only an hour or two of sit down school per day. My girls learned their math facts by doing math, not by any type of rote drill. They are excellent math students, even the one who argued vehemently with me over whether or not we need to regroup numbers. My 13 year old is a visual kinesthetic learner who was a seemly hopeless speller until she was about 9 when she figured out her own mnemonic system. Since my eldest and I are natural spellers, I hadn't thought to do this with her.

 

Some kids like to go faster, some deeper, some both faster & deeper. I didn't worry about doing all subjects when my kids were 6, but saved some until they were 8-10 unles they were really interested in them. We did the 3 R's and subjects they loved.

 

In short, I wouldn't worry about a 6 year old who just wants to skim over the surface of some things right now or instilling a lot of discipline in every subject. I have found it more successful to build discipline one step at a time rather than globally, and if a subject only takes a few minutes at 6, that's okay; it will take longer as she progresses up the levels and at the same time she'll be maturing.

 

What I did find helpful was to let my kids have a lot of reading time on their own as well as play time with good toys (legos, dolls, blocks, etc, etc) and to let them have active play outside. These do a lot to help a child's brain develop and are frequently overlooked. Music is also VERY good for kids to actively participate in. I'm not sure if they have things like Musikgarten or Kindermusik in India or not.

[jennynd]

My girls learned their math facts by doing math, not by any type of rote drill. .

:iagree:

 

I also never drill my boy. He get good at the table by doing the questions.

he is fairly mathy

[go_go_gadget]

Does your daughter word hard in other areas? A work ethic isn't restricted to math, and if she's accustomed to working through challenges in other subjects I wouldn't worry about the work ethic aspect. Whether it's important to achieve fluency in arithmetic before beginning algebra study is another question.

[ebunny]

Here they are!

that's awesome..thanks for the snap.

 

A work ethic isn't restricted to math, and if she's accustomed to working through challenges in other subjects I wouldn't worry about the work ethic aspect.

 

Math is quantifiable and ability is easy to measure. How does one do that in other subjects. My DD learns 2 languages, apart from English. Those are (relatively) simple to track too, and I find it easy to challenge her in them wrt the curriculum.

 

But, I find it tricky to do the same with science/history/geography. Right now, the output (writing, expressing) doesn't match the input, so even if she's not challenged, I have no way to know.

[Beth in SW WA]

My ds did NOT master any computational math before moving on to algebra.

 

Ruth

 

Fascinating, Ruth! :)

 

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I feel that she has to understand the importance of mastering the details before she moves on to the bigger picture.

 

Dd8 cruised through math over the last year -- despite just recently mastering her times tables this summer to automaticity. She is now in TT Prealg while still nailing down the laborious steps of long division and memorizing random metric measurements (boring!). She'll get there over time. She has 90% mastery of 4+digits divided by 2 digit numbers. I'm not going to inhibit the learning of new, fun pre-algebraic concepts because she doesn't have rote learning of boring math memorized.

 

Not everyone will do it this way but it has worked well here.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Beth in SW WA
more info

[AngelBee]

:lurk5:

[AngelBee]

Here they are!

 

[ATTACH]6433[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]6434[/ATTACH]

 

I really love that idea! My kids are very visual. Hmmm....

[WishboneDawn]

Instilling a work ethic IMHO should be done with material that is appropriate to their level. All life has drudgery in it, but I believe in igniting the fire first.

 

Ruth

 

:iagree:

 

At 6 you're dealing with a kid who already has some wonderful learning skills in place and you really don't want to get in the way of that by getting too disciplined and formal too soon. At 6 they're natural observers and questioners - the world's best scientists. Formal structure should be very limited and can mostly come later. Heck, we unschooled until my daughter was 8 and she's now a very disciplined and independent learner.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't have any formal work but do limit it. There's time to develop those skills.