S/o spanking and obedience - how do I handle this

[blondeviolin]

I swear...these questions are always about my son. He is stubborn and hard to influence. He is nearly 4 (late Oct birthday). Our relationship is a positive one, though there are times he doesn't like me much.

 

Last week, after church, his teacher bad mentioned to me that he had been spitting in class. He and I talked about it last week and why it wasn't good. This morning, before I dropped him off in his class, I reminded him that we should not spit. Then I asked to tell me that he wouldn't. He said he wouldn't tell me that, that he would only spit a little bit. So I withheld taking him to class, telling him that it was no spitting at all or no class and those were the rules. So he threw a big fit. I hauled him outside and told him we would go back inside when he was ready and calm. He screamed and motioned to the door. I responded that he had to be calm and tell menhe was ready. He screamed for 45 minutes, kicking, yelling about using the bathroom, screaming, etc. I waited. Finally he exploded with, "I'm ready!" he then stopped crying and I told him that I love him. We again discussed the spitting and he said he did it because church is boring. I reiterated that we still shouldn't spit and we go to church. (Church is not new, we've gone since before he was born.) He said he wouldn't spit and be was ready to use the restroom. I walked him to the bathroom and then took him to class (and, yes, he was late).

 

We had the same issue where he was pushing on his sister's leg with his foot. She asked him nicely to stop, he did not, so she came to me. I told him to stop and placed my hand on his foot. He kept it up, so I removed him from the couch. That took over an hour to remediate.

 

He will not leave things alone. Sometimes he does something just to bother someone. Joanne's GOYB parenting works fine when I require him to do something. We seem to have big issues when I require him to stop.

 

In some ways I feel as if I'm trying to enclose a whole lot of will and energy into a teeny box.

 

I have spent many nights on my knees trying to learn how to best help him. At some points, it drives me to tears because outlasting him is so exhausting. I'm trying to lather him in positive reinforcement whenever I see possible.

[Parrothead]

Is there a possibility he is sensory seeking? The things he does could be put down to hardheadedness, but they could be mild sensory seeking behaviors too.

[Ginevra]

I think you handled the spitting thing amazingly well.

 

And - this will not help a lot - but he will outgrow the "won't leave things alone." My son drove me to tears many a night because of those sorts of things, but he did learn eventually.

[mommymilkies]

Is there a possibility he is sensory seeking? The things he does could be put down to hardheadedness, but they could be mild sensory seeking behaviors too.

 

:iagree: Sounds like my ds with SPD.

[Whereneverever]

Are you giving him enough things he CAN do? If church is boring, can he run around outside first? Can he wiggle his toes while he sits? Can he tap his fingers together? Quiet things that let him move without disrupting others?

 

When he was pushing with his foot did you show him that he can push his feet against each other?

 

:grouphug: It does get better.

[blondeviolin]

I don't believe he is sensory seeking. My nephew has SPD and I have really researched it and discussed it with his doctor. She agrees with me. I still try to provide a rich "sensory diet."

[justamouse]

I think you handled the spitting like a champ.

 

He's ALMOST 4. He's still 3! :001_smile: The leaving things alone will come. He won't do it until much later, but he WILL grow out of it. 3/4/5 even 6 -church is boring! I would make him a bag and have him sit with me. Let him color, count your fingers what have you while he learns to be patient. You may want to keep him really active. Let him help you vacuum, pick up the yard, and lots of room to play in a big way.

 

In that one site-Christian Calm?- the speaker said he took a strip of double side tape and stuck on it something rough (scouring pad) something medium (sponge) and something soft (fake fur?) and taped it under the desks so the kids could feel it (touching helps people concentrate) while they worked. Would something like that help him, too?

Edited August 28, 2011 by justamouse

[Guest submarines]

I think you handled it exceptionally well! DD who is 9 now used to take a long time to calm down. She is very sensitive and probably has mild sensory issues. Everything is a BIG DEAL to her. No, HUGE deal. Her emotions are always BIG, overwhelming to me, but also overwhelming to her as well.

 

She is 9, and recently told me, "Remember, Mom, when I used to get so upset, that I couldn't use my words, and I just screamed? Well, I still get as upset sometimes, but I now know how to use my words and tell you about it."

 

Hang in there. You're doing everything right. It will get better. :grouphug:

[blondeviolin]

See...this is where I'm at a loss and want to cry. Lol We have him do 25 jumping jacks before Church. We provide crayons and paper and pictures to look at. He may sit or stand. He can sing along. I take him to the bathroom after 30 minutes. It's not like I'm expecting him to just sit there with nothing!

 

With the foot thing. I told him he could push his feet on himself, on each other or even a stuffed animal. He chose to still do it to his sister. It's almost as if it's because he was asked not to that he does it.

 

If it's just an enduring thing...well, that's exhausting! But at least I know I'm not missing something that will make that stage last indefinitely.

[myfunnybunch]

Last week, after church, his teacher bad mentioned to me that he had been spitting in class. He and I talked about it last week and why it wasn't good. This morning, before I dropped him off in his class, I reminded him that we should not spit. Then I asked to tell me that he wouldn't. He said he wouldn't tell me that, that he would only spit a little bit. So I withheld taking him to class, telling him that it was no spitting at all or no class and those were the rules. So he threw a big fit. I hauled him outside and told him we would go back inside when he was ready and calm. He screamed and motioned to the door. I responded that he had to be calm and tell menhe was ready. He screamed for 45 minutes, kicking, yelling about using the bathroom, screaming, etc. I waited. Finally he exploded with, "I'm ready!" he then stopped crying and I told him that I love him. We again discussed the spitting and he said he did it because church is boring. I reiterated that we still shouldn't spit and we go to church. (Church is not new, we've gone since before he was born.) He said he wouldn't spit and be was ready to use the restroom. I walked him to the bathroom and then took him to class (and, yes, he was late).

 

We had the same issue where he was pushing on his sister's leg with his foot. She asked him nicely to stop, he did not, so she came to me. I told him to stop and placed my hand on his foot. He kept it up, so I removed him from the couch. That took over an hour to remediate.

 

Hang in there. You may not see the fruits of this kind of work immediately, but you're being consistent, and you're helping him to be responsible for his behavior (with your help).

 

He's little yet. Gentle consequences can take some time to sink in, but (imo) it's worth the investment.

 

Keep it up, momma. You're doing a good job. :grouphug:

 

Cat

[katilac]

Does it make you feel better to know that your son sounds like a very typical preschooler? Kids are stubborn. Parenting is hard. ;)

 

I think you handled the church situation quite well for a 'first offense.' If he persisted, I would change my tactics - - I would not sit there with him for an hour and essentially allow him to do just what he wants, miss church. Kids know very well that you have to take them out if they get loud enough, so don't let that pay off. Do what my sister did: when she had to remove my nephew from a 9 am church service, she didn't go home. Instead, they sat outside until the 11 am service, and she gave him the chance to try again, pointing out that there were services at 12.30 and 4 as well, in case he didn't make it through this one. He quickly decided that 'suffering' through one church service was the path of least resistance. If there aren't multiple services for you to attend, simply make your own, perhaps reading some of the less interesting Bible stories in a monotone voice. And if there are any fun things y'all do after church, they can be useful tools as well. Those who don't sit through church quietly don't get to eat donuts, go on a bike ride, watch a movie, visit grandma, whatever he likes to do on a lovely Sunday.

 

While his behavior sounds fairly typical, I would wonder if he is getting too much attention and engagement. There's no reason you should spend an hour getting him to stop touching his sister with his foot, for example. Tell him once, and then remove him from the couch, no long discussion needed. If he persists in bothering people or trying to get back on the couch, move him to a small, boring room where he can stare at the wall instead of playing or talking. If he seems to enjoy bothering people, you have to be extra careful not to feed those tendencies: annoying behaviors need to result in a quick trip to boredom land, with no one around for him to annoy.

 

Some kids will never push the boundaries, but I promise you that most will. His behavior isn't unusual as a starting point, but you may have fallen into a trap where he is enjoying the whole back-and-forth of struggle and attention. You need to remove his payoffs. Another way I might handle the church situation is to turn around and go home. ds loses all privileges for the day, while you are so stressed that you have to relax with a movie and maybe some ice cream :D

[SailorMom]

We had HOURS of this when the boys were younger. I felt like it was a battle of wills at times.

They do grow out of it, what you are doing will bear fruit, and it sounds to me like you handled the spitting well.

[Puma Mom]

If it's just an enduring thing...well, that's exhausting! But at least I know I'm not missing something that will make that stage last indefinitely.

You nailed it! Sorry, but it's definitely an endurance event. Who can outlast, who can stand strong, who will not give up.

 

My oldest is over-the-top strong willed. He told me a few years ago that sometimes he just wanted to do what he wanted to do and that he was willing to take the punishment in exchange for getting his way for a moment. He said that what we did worked as well as anything could have. Mostly, we made our expectations very clear, as well as the consequences for deliberately making what we defined as a bad choice. We tried to not get angry about it when he did make a bad choice, just matter-of-factly invoked the punishment he knew he was getting.

 

Be consistent. Find his currency. Praise good choices. Invoke pre-determined consequences for bad choices. Create opportunities for him to practice making the choice between good and bad.

[Nan in Mass]

It sounds like typical three year old boy to me (I have three boys, 17, 21, 24 now). Three is AWFUL. You handled it beautifully. I did exactly that and it worked very very well in the long run. We avoided a lot of issues that my friends had later because they either took a more traditional approach or were more permissive. I have very loving, very family oriented adult (or almost adult) boys now. Your adult to adult relationship lasts a whole lot longer than your adult to child relationship, so it is definately worth taking this approach. It is absolutely exhausting at the time, but it works. Hang in there. Four was a bit easier and five was definately better. I found that I could reduce the tantrums by keeping the rules simple, keeping life fairly predictable (but with plenty of things to look forward to), making sure my expectations were clear, talking a lot, and giving them plenty of advanced warning about everything. I didn't do the "By the time I"ve counted to three you had better have..." thing (which is just asking for trouble, I think) but I did lots of "In a minute we are going to...".

 

Good job!

Nan

[WishboneDawn]

I think you handled the spitting thing amazingly well.

 

And - this will not help a lot - but he will outgrow the "won't leave things alone." My son drove me to tears many a night because of those sorts of things, but he did learn eventually.

 

I agree. I think you're on the right track and this may be something you just have to keep at until he's past this phase.

[Night Elf]

While his behavior sounds fairly typical, I would wonder if he is getting too much attention and engagement. There's no reason you should spend an hour getting him to stop touching his sister with his foot, for example. Tell him once, and then remove him from the couch, no long discussion needed.

 

I'm sure it's difficult, but I totally agree with this. No issues, typical behavior or medical, should be an excuse to take it out on another person. Period. I would have taken him off the couch and put him on another chair, or on the floor if no chair was available. His sister doesn't deserve to be the butt of his behaviors, no matter what is driving them. I would tell him that if he cannot sit next to a person without bothering them, then he simply can't sit next to them at all.

 

I don't know what to tell you about the hour long tantrums. My son had meltdowns (think super duper horrid bad tantrum) when he was younger, but I can look back now and realize they were because of his Aspergers and sensory issues. But even then, they never lasted that long, usually because he would wear himself out and fall asleep. Also, I never had him in any situation that would require a snap decison about how to handle it. Hopefully the other responses can give you more insight into that.

 

:grouphug:

Edited August 28, 2011 by Night Elf

[8circles]

I'm sure it's difficult, but I totally agree with this. No issues, typical behavior or medical, should be an excuse to take it out on another person. Period. I would have taken him off the couch and put him on another chair, or on the floor if no chair was available. His sister doesn't deserve to be the butt of his behaviors, no matter what is driving them. I would tell him that if he cannot sit next to a person without bothering them, then he simply can't sit next to them at all.

Totally agree. Too much engagement.

I don't know what to tell you about the hour long tantrums. My son had meltdowns (think super duper horrid bad tantrum) when he was younger, but I can look back now and realize they were because of his Aspergers and sensory issues. But even then, they never lasted that long, usually because he would wear himself out and fall asleep. Also, I never had him in any situation that would require a snap decison about how to handle it. Hopefully the other responses can give you more insight into that.

 

:grouphug:

About the marathon tantrums - I have a DS who had a very very very hard time calming himself down when he was upset. Some children are just incapable of doing it. Even now, at 6, he needs help to un-angry him - he can't do it himself. We do a lot of hugs & comfort - not for the primary offense (which is still corrected/disciplined) but to help him calm down.

[Night Elf]

About the marathon tantrums - I have a DS who had a very very very hard time calming himself down when he was upset. Some children are just incapable of doing it. Even now, at 6, he needs help to un-angry him - he can't do it himself. We do a lot of hugs & comfort - not for the primary offense (which is still corrected/disciplined) but to help him calm down.

 

Yeah, I had to wrap my arms and legs around my son to help calm him down. I would lightly brush his skin with my fingerips and could physically feel his muscles unclenching. We call it ghost fingers and he still asks me to do that today and he's 15 years old. Gosh I was glad when those tantrums stopped. I really hated when people suggested it was a behavior issue and I should just spank him or punish him. They just had NO clue. I tried explaining that would be like punishing a person with epilepsy for having a seizure. They couldn't see it.

 

No, I'm not suggesting the OP's son has mental issues. Sorry I hijacked the thread.

[justamouse]

See...this is where I'm at a loss and want to cry. Lol We have him do 25 jumping jacks before Church. We provide crayons and paper and pictures to look at. He may sit or stand. He can sing along. I take him to the bathroom after 30 minutes. It's not like I'm expecting him to just sit there with nothing!

 

With the foot thing. I told him he could push his feet on himself, on each other or even a stuffed animal. He chose to still do it to his sister. It's almost as if it's because he was asked not to that he does it.

 

If it's just an enduring thing...well, that's exhausting! But at least I know I'm not missing something that will make that stage last indefinitely.

 

He's three- THREE- going on four. Really, you're expecting a lot of him. Not until 9-12 are children developmentally *ready* to carry out a directive with no help from you. So, now, imagine that at three. Yes, he's going to keep kicking at her because he keeps forgetting he's not supposed to so you are going to constantly need to redirect him. Send him outside to kick a ball. IS he kicking her in his head-he could be kicking a ball in his head and in reality it's his sister's foot!

 

So, don't ask him not to. Just give him something else TO kick. Pick her up, reroute him and just show him what he CAN kick.

 

Church-I take it you're in a long service. Back when I went to a church like that we had a sound system downstairs in the toddler room-can you just go downstairs with him? It just may be that you are going to have to work though services for a few years. That's when I ended up teaching because I was down there so much all ready. :D

 

Also, you can have practice church at home. Show him to be quiet and color and set the timer. Practice doing it.

 

Where I go now it's an hour with lots of action so if the kids get wiggly at the end, the mom's just take them out for a few minutes here or there.

Edited August 28, 2011 by justamouse

[Joyofsixreboot]

As others have said I think you did great. My now 13 yo was/is incredibly stubborn and some of her fits were epic BUT that doesn't happen now. Also if she was hungry or tired or had been out to long things were 3x worse. She still needs lots of downtime.

[FairProspects]

We had HOURS of this when the boys were younger. I felt like it was a battle of wills at times.

They do grow out of it, what you are doing will bear fruit, and it sounds to me like you handled the spitting well.

 

:iagree:It is frequently like this here too. Boys can just be tough when they are younger.

[LaxMom]

Sounds like 3, going into the personality disorder that is called 4, to me.

 

I think you handled it admirably. Consistency does pay off... Or they just plain outgrow it. In any event, during those years I often reminded myself, out loud, "this is a marathon, not sprint..."

[majikmommie]

I just wanted to say that my son sounds a lot like yours. It is so exhausting to deal with that kind of behavior. I have no advice. I just wanted to offer some sympathy and understanding. I hope it does get better. :grouphug:

[blondeviolin]

Thanks, ladies! I guess I'll keep doing what I'm doing and hopefully I'll make it out of this phase with him and still be sane. We had him evaluated by a developmental pediatrician (free at the base!) who commented about his super strong will, so I know it's partly his iron will.

 

Does it make you feel better to know that your son sounds like a very typical preschooler? Kids are stubborn. Parenting is hard. ;)

 

I think you handled the church situation quite well for a 'first offense.' If he persisted, I would change my tactics - - I would not sit there with him for an hour and essentially allow him to do just what he wants, miss church. Kids know very well that you have to take them out if they get loud enough, so don't let that pay off. Do what my sister did: when she had to remove my nephew from a 9 am church service, she didn't go home. Instead, they sat outside until the 11 am service, and she gave him the chance to try again, pointing out that there were services at 12.30 and 4 as well, in case he didn't make it through this one. He quickly decided that 'suffering' through one church service was the path of least resistance. If there aren't multiple services for you to attend, simply make your own, perhaps reading some of the less interesting Bible stories in a monotone voice. And if there are any fun things y'all do after church, they can be useful tools as well. Those who don't sit through church quietly don't get to eat donuts, go on a bike ride, watch a movie, visit grandma, whatever he likes to do on a lovely Sunday.

 

While his behavior sounds fairly typical, I would wonder if he is getting too much attention and engagement. There's no reason you should spend an hour getting him to stop touching his sister with his foot, for example. Tell him once, and then remove him from the couch, no long discussion needed. If he persists in bothering people or trying to get back on the couch, move him to a small, boring room where he can stare at the wall instead of playing or talking. If he seems to enjoy bothering people, you have to be extra careful not to feed those tendencies: annoying behaviors need to result in a quick trip to boredom land, with no one around for him to annoy.

 

Some kids will never push the boundaries, but I promise you that most will. His behavior isn't unusual as a starting point, but you may have fallen into a trap where he is enjoying the whole back-and-forth of struggle and attention. You need to remove his payoffs. Another way I might handle the church situation is to turn around and go home. ds loses all privileges for the day, while you are so stressed that you have to relax with a movie and maybe some ice cream :D

 

I think there was some confusion when I said it took an hour to remediate him putting his feet on his sister. I meant that it took him an hour for him to stop screaming that I took him off the couch and on a different chair. His sister asked him to stop, he didn't. She came to me. I told him to stop and gave him options for where to place his foot (he wasn't kicking). I told him if he couldn't sit on the couch nicely, he wouldn't sit on the couch. He clearly replaced his foot on her because it bothered her. At which point, I placed him on a separate chair. And he screamed and cried for an hour about it. When he does it at home, I place him in his room and tell him when he's ready to stop and calm it down, he can come out.

 

You nailed it! Sorry, but it's definitely an endurance event. Who can outlast, who can stand strong, who will not give up.

 

My oldest is over-the-top strong willed. He told me a few years ago that sometimes he just wanted to do what he wanted to do and that he was willing to take the punishment in exchange for getting his way for a moment. He said that what we did worked as well as anything could have. Mostly, we made our expectations very clear, as well as the consequences for deliberately making what we defined as a bad choice. We tried to not get angry about it when he did make a bad choice, just matter-of-factly invoked the punishment he knew he was getting.

 

Be consistent. Find his currency. Praise good choices. Invoke pre-determined consequences for bad choices. Create opportunities for him to practice making the choice between good and bad.

 

This seems like my son to a T. Two days ago I heard him tell his sister, "It's okay, we can jump on the bed. We'll get in trouble, but at least we'll get to do what we want to do." :glare:

[justamouse]

I think there was some confusion when I said it took an hour to remediate him putting his feet on his sister. I meant that it took him an hour for him to stop screaming that I took him off the couch and on a different chair. His sister asked him to stop, he didn't. She came to me. I told him to stop and gave him options for where to place his foot (he wasn't kicking). I told him if he couldn't sit on the couch nicely, he wouldn't sit on the couch. He clearly replaced his foot on her because it bothered her. At which point, I placed him on a separate chair. And he screamed and cried for an hour about it. When he does it at home, I place him in his room and tell him when he's ready to stop and calm it down, he can come out.

 

 

How old is your Dd? Can you tell her to use reverse psychology on him? I bet that if he can't get a rise out of her he'll stop. can you tell her to act like it doesn't matter? just ignore his foot and soon enough he'll tire of it?

[blondeviolin]

How old is your Dd? Can you tell her to use reverse psychology on him? I bet that if he can't get a rise out of her he'll stop. can you tell her to act like it doesn't matter? just ignore his foot and soon enough he'll tire of it?

 

I can't tell you how many times I've repeated something like that. But she's just five (turned at the end of May) so she really doesn't get it. And it's rather irrelevant because he does similar things to BOTH sisters (2 and 5).

[AK_Mom4]

I have been there on that one. I remember the hour-long tantrums for my stubborn kid at age 3 - yeesh!!!!

 

Hang in there and keep it up. Sometimes I think the super-long tantrums were DS's way of blowing off extra emotion at that age - he didn't want to quit, it made him frustrated and he would go on about it FOREVER - even when put alone in his bedroom to scream. It does get better - this was a phase for us (well, he's still stubborn, but he uses his stubborness for good applications now)

[Carol in Cal.]

Can you give him an alternative? You mentioned that the dos are easier than the don'ts, and that has been my experience as well. So, for instance, if he is inclined to kick his sister, you pull him aside and say something like, "People are SO special. We don't kick people. Kicking hurts. We hug people instead." and then walk him through a hug.

 

I thought you handled the spitting exceptionally well, and in addition, you could maybe add a 'do' component: "We don't spit in church. We listen carefully. We keep our mouths closed."

[Pamela H in Texas]

A couple thoughts that may or may not help (btw, I think you've done swimmingly from what I read):

 

1) during these fits, what is happening? Are you trying to engage him? Are you arguing with him? Are you "reminding" him that we can do whatever else when he's done? Fits last a LOT longer if they are "winning" attention and engagement with you. I quote winning because by winning, he is losing.

 

2) Will he do a "time-in" of sorts such as sitting next to you on a bench or in the car? At home, it'd probably be on his bed or on the couch. For this, you can simply look where he is looking (if he is looking at you, look at him; but don't force eye contact). You can just "be there" until he's ready to deal with the situation (which it sounds like he was after his fit).

 

3) Are you telling him what TO do rather than just what not to do? When my ds was little we had Christian meetings that were about 2 hours on Sunday and 1½ hours Thursday and an hour on Tuesday. We also had conventions which were all day. My son was told what he *could* do rather than what not to do. Even my really tough kids now do *very* well with these meetings (as well as the convention in June when we've only had them since April!). All the things we give them to do are about the lesson. There are books with Bible stories and lots of pictures. They can "take notes" in a variety of ways depending on age/developmental level. They can wiggle their toes or tongues or fingers under their legs where it won't bother other people. During parts the congregation answers into the microphone, they have answers prepared to participate. They highlight their materials similarly to me (obviously 3yr olds do so much differently than I do but they think it is similar). And the list goes on. But there are a lot of things they CAN do.