Hot Saucing Mom found guilty

[clarkacademy]

They do? :001_huh:

 

It has? :001_huh:

 

I must live in a very different world. I don't know anyone who would burn a child's mouth (hot sauce burns - that's the whole point of the stuff) and force him into a freezing cold shower.

 

:(

 

 

That along with soap goes way back. Hot sauce has been used forever I have heard many times about burning ears with a lie will get your tongue burned. I even heard it in school by the nuns. My sisters husband is in the army and this is a very common method used. Along with strict push-ups and such. I am not saying what she did was all the rage and maybe she went over the top but there is way worse out there and it just didn't deserve all the media hype when such worse goes unchecked.

[FaithManor]

The other thing I'd like to point out is that we really do not know the whole story. Law enforcement has access to details about that family and this incident, plus probably previous incidents a plenty, that we will never be privvy to. This evidence is something the jury would have heard and taken into consideration.

 

Our media is no longer a noble force for presenting the citizenry with facts in order to keep us informed of important issues, the media is there for RATINGS. If news outlets knew the whole story, they wouldn't publish it if it meant less sensationalism. Therefore, I'm going to assume that despite the fact that woman did get and receive help, the prosecution was called for anyway.

 

Faith

[Pamela H in Texas]

She didn't do it for an audition for a tv show. She was behaving that way anyway. Her daughter simply video taped what was really happening in order to show the severity of what they were dealing with so they could get help. There is a HUGE difference.

 

I still am going to discipline my kids (though generally without punishment and certainly not including anything anyone would consider abusive) even though they scream extremely loudly for very long times. I'm also still going to say that we probably shouldn't punish people who seek, accept, and implement help. And I'm still thinking that there is a huge percentage of people who would be in a great amount of trouble if we're going to start prosecuting every parent who treats their child's body disrespectfully (by hitting, putting things in their mouth's, etc).

 

ETA: Everyone on here knows that I'm against almost all punishment. I'm fairly vocal about being against mistreatment of a child's body (and saucing, spanking, etc requires mistreatment by definition) and certainly against child abuse. I do not think people should be doing any of the things this woman did. I think it is even more abhorrent that she did it to a child with his history. I don't want anyone thinking I am defending what she did. I have already made my position about those things clear.

Edited August 24, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[Mom in High Heels]

IIRC, on the original airing of Dr. Phil, she made a comment that she didn't treat her other children like this (including the other adopted son), but that this particular child was willful and defiant.

 

Honestly, I can't see a reason to ever put a noxious substance in the mouth of a child. This woman though didn't just put a drop or two in his mouth though. She poured it in and made him hold it in his mouth. It was horrible. I cried watching the episode.

[BatmansWife]

She didn't do it for an audition for a tv show. She was behaving that way anyway. Her daughter simply video taped what was really happening in order to show the severity of what they were dealing with so they could get help. There is a HUGE difference.

 

I still am going to discipline my kids (though generally without punishment and certainly not including anything anyone would consider abusive) even though they scream extremely loudly for very long times. I'm also still going to say that we probably shouldn't punish people who seek, accept, and implement help. And I'm still thinking that there is a huge percentage of people who would be in a great amount of trouble if we're going to start prosecuting every parent who treats their child's body disrespectfully (by hitting, putting things in their mouth's, etc).

 

ETA: Everyone on here knows that I'm against almost all punishment. I'm fairly vocal about being against mistreatment of a child's body (and saucing, spanking, etc requires mistreatment by definition) and certainly against child abuse. I do not think people should be doing any of the things this woman did. I think it is even more abhorrent that she did it to a child with his history. I don't want anyone thinking I am defending what she did. I have already made my position about those things clear.

 

Of course she was already doing this before the video tape. But, she fully knew she was being videotaped and that it was for sending to the show. On the Today show this morning, again the lawyer said, "punishing a child on video to get on the show was the abuse." I think she *did* do it to get on the show (even though she was already doing it). I think this obviously has a huge bearing on their verdict (because they've commented on that fact several times).

 

As for your ETA......I wouldn't say that everyone here already knows that you are against almost all punishment. Really? I had no clue.

Not that I have a problem with you Pamela. I'm just sayin...... :D

[Pamela H in Texas]

April, LOL Well, and I kinda put the ETA there to remind people that I'm not a mom wielding a wooden spoon and a bar of soap. I'm not defending what she did in the least. I consider it abusive. I consider MOST parents abusive with some of their punishments. That doesn't make it legally child abuse though (though honestly, some should be!).

 

So are we saying the video taping of this punishment is what was abusive because if on those specific occasions she was doing the punishment to him anyway....

[SKL]

The woman clearly needed help, but it's sad that she got prosecuted for seeking help. Granted, I would not have gone to Dr. Phil to seek help, but whatever. Many parents who do far worse are not getting into any trouble because they are better at keeping it to themselves.

 

I don't think a drop of hot sauce or a cold shower is abuse, though it is rather extreme. I did the cold shower once, but can't imagine the hot sauce trick. Maybe because my mom once told me of a child who died because his mom poured pepper in his mouth.

 

What I did find terribly sad was how her interactions with this child were continually diminishing him. Yes, he had behavior issues, as many older adoptees do. Raising a child with this background takes an incredible amount of maturity and support. It seems to me that she lacked both, and the child suffered every day. I hope she got the help she needed and the child has been built up since then.

[BatmansWife]

April, LOL Well, and I kinda put the ETA there to remind people that I'm not a mom wielding a wooden spoon and a bar of soap. I'm not defending what she did in the least. I consider it abusive. I consider MOST parents abusive with some of their punishments. That doesn't make it legally child abuse though (though honestly, some should be!).

 

So are we saying the video taping of this punishment is what was abusive because if on those specific occasions she was doing the punishment to him anyway....

 

Whew....I'm glad you didn't think I was trying to pick a fight. :boxing_smiley: As for the bolded part.....I have no clue actually. :D I just know that what I've read and heard, they keep bringing that up. Of course the punishment itself was the abuse (at least I would think so).....but apparently the videotape was a big factor in the jury's decision. Hmmmm.....but then again, on the Today show this morning another person involved in the case said that how she was punishing was 'strict but not cruel'. Soooo.....would that imply that if it wasn't videotaped that it wouldn't be as bad....but it was taped for the show so now it's abuse??? Maybe that is their thinking...but, I don't know.

[LibraryLover]

Good. She's a loose cannon. Im sure she will be recommended for counseling. There wont likely be any jail sentence. Judges have other options. I think finding her guilty sends an important message that children have the right not to be tortured. She physically and emotionally abused him. If those tapes had been of her doing that to her dog , there's not a soul who would have said, " That's not abuse." Because it's a child, some people think it's ok.

Edited August 24, 2011 by LibraryLover

[unsinkable]

She probably should have just shaved his head.

 

That's not abuse. :glare:

Edited August 24, 2011 by unsinkable

[Scarlett]

One misdemeanor count of child abuse is not likely to get her jail time...likely community service, perhaps a fine and subject her to ongoing CPS oversight, which she already has and clearly needs. It was not just about the hot sauce, it was the way she punished, the tv thing and the cold showers like that. Seriously, I think a misdemeanor conviction is more than just in this case and I hope this has served as her final wake up call to be a better parent.

 

The fact that a jury did not convict someone else of a crime they are believe to have committed (Anthony), has zero bearing on another court case for a different crime in a different state. I am glad the state did what was right here. Too often nothing happens till too late. Children deserve protection.

 

I agree. It still irritates me that Casey Anthony was found 'not guilty'. Ugh.

[BatmansWife]

She probably should have just shaved his head.

 

That's not not abuse. :glare:

 

Wow....what is wrong with some people???

 

Poor girl. :crying:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

She probably should have just shaved his head.

 

That's not not abuse. :glare:

 

 

That's horrible. I guess "Dr" Phil would say that the mom found her daughter's "currency". :leaving:

[Scarlett]

That's horrible. I guess "Dr" Phil would say that the mom found her daughter's "currency". :leaving:

 

 

 

Yeah. I guess so. :( Although I doubt seriously Dr. Phil would approve of shaving a girl's head for any reason.

[5knights3maidens]

Actually, I can see a dab of hot sauce or soap on your finger but putting all that sauce in his mouth, couldn't the heat of the sauce make him choke or pouring soap in the mouth also make you choke...to death??

[twoforjoy]

I keep seeing people saying that she went on the show for help. But, from watching the clip, it's unclear whether she went on for help for herself--like, she admitted she was wrong to do what she did and wanted better techniques--or if she went on for help to change her son's behavior--like, she didn't really think what she was doing was wrong, just ineffective, and wanted Dr. Phil to tell her how to get her son in line.

 

To me, that would make a difference in how the tape should have been viewed by the courts.

[LibraryLover]

Double post sorry

Edited August 24, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Soror]

I cannot believe anyone watching that video doesn't think she deserves to be convicted. As pp said it doesn't matter whether Casey Anthony or anyone else got away with whatever, it has no bearing on her guilt. I think she is an evil, evil women. What she did was torture and emotional abuse and likely just as damaging for the daughter taping this and thinking this ok. It was premeditated, she planned out the abuse to tape. I not usually big on retaliation but I wonder if she could withstand the punishment she gave out, generally speaking most kids have less tolerance for hot things an then a cold shower and it's not like this was summer and he was hot they were dressed in winter clothes.

[LibraryLover]

She probably should have just shaved his head.

 

That's not abuse. :glare:

 

That's emotional abuse. That should be a crime. Parents don't have --shouldn't have-- that right. Too often abused kids turn into adults who join the ranks of the walking wounded. These folks, if they don't turn on others, suffer inside for the rest of their lives, in some way. Xanax , Valium, a little too much alcohol, panic attacks, anxiety etc etc

Edited August 24, 2011 by LibraryLover

[unsinkable]

That's emotional abuse. That should be a crime. Parents don't have --shouldn't have-- that right. Too often abused kids turn into adults who join the ranks of the walking wounded. These folks, if they don't turn on others, suffer inside for the rest of their lives, in some way. Xanax , Valium, a little too much alcohol, panic attacks, anxiety etc etc

 

I agree it's abuse. My sarcasm might not translate well. The CPS investigation thought it wasn't abuse.

[Scarlett]

I agree it's abuse. My sarcasm might not translate well. The CPS investigation thought it wasn't abuse.

 

I got your sarcasm. The glare emoticon helped. :D

[4wildberrys]

The follow up video on that link above was really good. The mom accepted all the help and really made good changes. She also had visits by CPS as well as the Russian Consulate. Everyone agreed she had progressed well and was capable of parenting. Punishment on top of all the real help serves as what?

 

ETA: Ummm, y'all's kids don't scream when disciplined in any manner? My big kids didn't because they knew I'd be all over that. And I could be because I had raised them from infancy. However, my four (baby doesn't count)? They FREAK OUT very very very loudly and for long periods of time because of ANY discipline. This morning's was because I pushed someone's glasses over a centimeter so it sat on child's face correctly! High pitched screaming for 20 minutes because of that "correction." How many people would try to correct THAT also?

 

Seriously, I think A LOT of kids carry on like that regardless. And I think foster and adoptive kids got a knack for it. That isn't to say I don't think the kid was wronged by his mom mistreating him. It's just to say that I find the reactions to be a bit over the top especially when such a large percentage of parents choose these types of punishments and it's been so okay'd generally. I think it's great this mom got help. I hope this is over for her family soon.

:iagree: The self righteous accusatory anger and crying by the women on Dr. Phil was more shocking than the video of mom punishing. I mean we're talking cold showers and hot sauce----not whipping with belts or pipes or something worse! She saw she needed help and went to get it----how about some compassion shown to her?! Corrective help is what she needs---NOT jail time.

 

I honestly DETEST talk shows and the judgemental, self righteous audiences and hosts :glare:

 

FWIW---my mother used the hot sauce method to get me to stop sucking my thumb. I remember it VERY well and I would never, ever have used that method for my kids. We also got soap, face smackings, the wooden spoon, the belt and the flyswatter. The HUGE difference is that these were acceptable methods back then and so parents felt justified. My husband and I would, again, NEVER have used these methods with our kids. This woman knew what she was doing was wrong and obviously ineffective and sought help. The message that is sent now to parents in these situations with horrendously defiant kids, and if adopted possibly very psychologically injured, is to HIDE their actions. Who now would seek help knowing that they would go to jail? What a mess.

Edited August 24, 2011 by 4wildberrys

[LucyStoner]

They do? :001_huh:

 

It has? :001_huh:

 

I must live in a very different world. I don't know anyone who would burn a child's mouth (hot sauce burns - that's the whole point of the stuff) and force him into a freezing cold shower.

 

:(

 

I agree. I know of NO ONE who would do this. most seems like a stretch. I agree also with the poster who says it is torture. It really, truly, is IMO.

[unsinkable]

She has been found guilty of 1 misdemeanor count of child abuse.

 

She HAS NOT been sentenced YET.

 

It is TOO EARLY to say that sending her to jail is wrong because it hasn't happened yet.

[SonshineLearner]

I nannied for a family that did hot sauce for.... whining, sassy, etc. I once put some in my mouth to see how it was.... it was awful. The next time I was talking about it to the mom, I asked if she had ever put the amt in her mouth... that she put in theirs. She said no; I noticed that the hot sauce left the scene.... I assume she tried it and realized how horrible it was. I've heard of vinegar and lemon juice. When we were little, we had to have a tsp or less of horseradish. To this day I can't stand the stuff. (My mom read it in a book and heard it from Richard Fugate... ugh)

I understand the frustration. I even wonder who raised the judge's children if he/she didn't understand. Seriously, it's not like she was trying to hurt the child; she needed help... breaks... "a better way" to deal with a child who wasn't able to be reached yet. I think instead of a "Masters of Psych" or whatever... that Social Workers need to have.... they need a "Parenting your own difficult child thru age 21" I took a child abuse awareness class from a young woman(social worker) and was not impressed. She had NO idea of what raising children was like!! Crazy!! She was absolutely crazy uninformed. :( This was not, in my opinion, a victory for justice. :(

Edited August 24, 2011 by NayfiesMama

[unsinkable]

Some of these posts remind of Whoopi Goldberg saying it's not like it was rape rape.

[Julie Smith]

Some of these posts remind of Whoopi Goldberg saying it's not like it was rape rape.

 

When did Whoopi Goldbery say, "It's not like it was rape rape."

[LibraryLover]

I got your sarcasm. The glare emoticon helped. :D

 

I got it. I was agreeing. If CPS is called again about this family, perhaps the child can get some support at that point. I don't mean foster care. In my fantasy world there is good counseling to help families communicate and interact in ways which respect all, even vulnerable children. I want to be Queen.

Edited August 24, 2011 by LibraryLover

[unsinkable]

When did Whoopi Goldbery say, "It's not like it was rape rape."

 

In 2009, in reference to Roman Polanski raping a 13 year old girl.

[ByGrace3]

She probably should have just shaved his head.

 

That's not abuse. :glare:

 

ICK. I actually have heard of this quite a bit. There is a well known "counselor" (I use that term loosely) that advocates for this punishment for lying in RADS kids. (an inch every time you lie) :( I knew a family once that followed his advice with their adoptive daughter. It was the worst thing EVER. Can you imagine a little girl, adopted, in this case a girl who spent the first 5 yrs of her life in a Romanian orphanage where they SHAVED their heads to keep lice out. Now, try using cutting her hair as a punishment :crying: My heart broke. In a sad course of events the adoptive family gave up on her and one of my best friends adopted her. We were barely out of college and she had an 11 year old. While it was sad, the decision was one of the greatest things for that little girl.

[Pamela H in Texas]

nm

Edited August 24, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[SonshineLearner]

It's kinda weird to me that we all are judgemental; seriously, I'm sure that there are many things that each of us do, that when someone else looks on... they think "really bad!". Even the best parents make mistakes that others could somehow... however easily... classify as abuse. (I'm not necessarily meaning actual physical abuse)

[Scarlett]

It's kinda weird to me that we all are judgemental; seriously, I'm sure that there are many things that each of us do, that when someone else looks on... they think "really bad!". Even the best parents make mistakes that others could somehow... however easily... classify as abuse. (I'm not necessarily meaning actual physical abuse)

 

I agree. I've done things as a mother that I'd never want on the Dr. Phil show. :tongue_smilie: As least Hot Sauce Mom didn't defend her actions the way that shaving head mom did.

[ChristineW]

Good. She's a loose cannon. Im sure she will be recommended for counseling. There wont likely be any jail sentence. Judges have other options. I think finding her guilty sends an important message that children have the right not to be tortured. She physically and emotionally abused him. If those tapes had been of her doing that to her dog , there's not a soul who would have said, " That's not abuse." Because it's a child, some people think it's ok.

 

 

:iagree: She'll probably get a suspended sentence at most. It's a misdemeanor. She probably won't pass a background check to work with kids but beyond that there will be no long term consequences for her . Even though she tortured her own son. A child's taste buds are more sensitive than an adults--she was burning him.

 

Once that video aired, the authorities didn't have a choice. Not to prosecute would be like saying we don't care if you abuse your kid so long as it isn't bad enough to merit an ER visit. If she was serious about getting help, she should have sought out community resources not gone on tv.

[Soror]

I don't think it is wrong to judge, without it there is anarchy. What that lady did went beyond the usual hot sauce rec.s that I've seen (which I still don't agree with btw). It is like the spanking issue a few spats is entirely different then the Pearl method of hitting an infant. Following the logic that we shouldn't stand up against it because then they won't seek help, well how far to take that? Is she in the same category as those that lock their kids in closets, no, but it doesn't look like her punishment will be anywhere near theirs either, it doesn't look like jail time is likely. I've done things as a mother that I'm ashamed of, that were wrong, denying that fact it doesn't make it less true. I also think that considering Dr. Phil is a mandated reporter even if autorities didn't see it he had an obligation to report it and as it was an overseas adoption there was even more pressure to prosecute.

[Julie Smith]

In 2009, in reference to Roman Polanski raping a 13 year old girl.

 

Okay, that article about the subject was weird. I much prefer the Whoopi I 'know' from star trek.

[NanceXToo]

Ugh. I just watched that little teaser clip on the Dr. Phil site somebody linked and that was enough to make me feel horrified. That poor little boy.

[WishboneDawn]

She didn't do it for an audition for a tv show. She was behaving that way anyway. Her daughter simply video taped what was really happening in order to show the severity of what they were dealing with so they could get help. There is a HUGE difference.

 

I still am going to discipline my kids (though generally without punishment and certainly not including anything anyone would consider abusive) even though they scream extremely loudly for very long times. I'm also still going to say that we probably shouldn't punish people who seek, accept, and implement help. And I'm still thinking that there is a huge percentage of people who would be in a great amount of trouble if we're going to start prosecuting every parent who treats their child's body disrespectfully (by hitting, putting things in their mouth's, etc).

 

ETA: Everyone on here knows that I'm against almost all punishment. I'm fairly vocal about being against mistreatment of a child's body (and saucing, spanking, etc requires mistreatment by definition) and certainly against child abuse. I do not think people should be doing any of the things this woman did. I think it is even more abhorrent that she did it to a child with his history. I don't want anyone thinking I am defending what she did. I have already made my position about those things clear.

 

I think I'm with you. I watched the video. It was horrible. I think that if the mom wanted to ensure her son would continue to lie to her she was doing a bang-up job. It was really bad parenting and I actually found the haranguing of her son worse then the hot sauce.

 

BUT, I've BTDT. I've acted that badly. I've not used hot sauce but I'm harangued and pushed and browbeaten and to see her doing what I had done was half of why I found it hard.

 

But again, I came out the other side. I became a better parent. I learned better methods. Good parents generally do and I think by reaching out that mom was probably on the way to becoming a better parent.

[NanceXToo]

Good. She's a loose cannon. Im sure she will be recommended for counseling. There wont likely be any jail sentence. Judges have other options. I think finding her guilty sends an important message that children have the right not to be tortured. She physically and emotionally abused him.

 

I agree. I know of NO ONE who would do this. most seems like a stretch. I agree also with the poster who says it is torture. It really, truly, is IMO.

 

:iagree:

[the4Rs]

I did watch the clip. I think what she did was too much. I feel for the boy, especially because he was adopted. I don't know that I'd say that the act itself was abuse or that she was "evil" .... she was ineffective and unstable and fortunately stopped before she resorted to much worse forms of punishment. I feel badly for the boy, but I always pause in judgement because a video clip only shows a small portion of their lives- who knows how frazzled she was or what he had done to drive her to that point (I am not blaming the boy..she was the adult...but kids are quite skillfull at pushing every button mom has). Maybe her police officer husband worked a night shift and slept all day so she was parenting alone most of the time. That can be very hard on a parent. We just don't know all the factors here.

 

I've done things I am not proud of but my kids have also pushed me to the ropes more times than I can count over the years. It could so easily happen to any one of us to lose control for a split second and do much worse than this mom did. We must all be careful and diligent and intentional in parenting.

 

I don't agree with videoing the punishment...that's adding insult to injury. That boy knew he was being videoed too. Humiliating on top of everything else.

 

I am willing to bet no one ever showed this mom the effective training that "grace" can play in a situation. Perhaps if she'd been shown it more, she'd have shown it to her son more. I hope her whole family can now heal from this.