Giving up punishment

[twoforjoy]

This is mostly going to be me rambling, and looking for input.

 

I'm thinking I need to totally give up on punishment as a means of discipline with my DS. It just has NEVER gotten me good results. I've been reading The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child and it has been, to use language I wouldn't normally use, a very, very convicting read. Pretty much all of the ineffective parenting myths he describes--using harsher and harsher punishments, lecturing, being afraid to praise things the child should already be doing--are things I do.

 

And practically I know that punishment just doesn't work with DS. He gets more and more defiant the more I punish. And it's certainly never led to long-term positive behavioral changes.

 

So, logically, I feel like my DS would probably do much, much better if we focused on positive reinforcement for correct behaviors, a lot of practicing those good behaviors, and ignoring most bad behavior, using punishment only sparingly for extremely serious things. But, I feel such emotional resistance to doing that. I really think, if I'm honest, it's a "But what will people think?" thing. I mean, I have a challenging kid, and if I don't punish him, it will seem like I'm just ignoring his bad behavior, and I'll look like a bad mom. I know that shouldn't matter. But I've realized over the years how much ego I have invested in what people think of my children and of me as a mother, and that's still a struggle.

 

Has anybody given up--or just never used--punishment, at least as a regular or primary means of discipline? How has it worked out for you, particularly if you have a very defiant, challenging kid? How do you deal with other parents or family members or friends who don't believe it's possible to discipline without punishing or who think you have to punish all misbehavior?

[Joanne]

Yes. I embraced an alternative to the punitive model for years. I teach, write about, and counsel on ways to have high standards, and discipline, that are not punitive minded.

 

For school aged children, I do believe in consequences, but I try to make them: (Credit to Jane Nelsen, positive discipline writer/leader)

 

1. Respectful

2. Related

3. Reasonable

 

Love and Logic is a program, hands on, that is positive discipline friendly. There are many other writers, also.

 

What other people think? Here:

 

Let's Not Talk About Spanking (relates in theory to more than spanking)

[justamouse]

Has anybody given up--or just never used--punishment, at least as a regular or primary means of discipline? How has it worked out for you, particularly if you have a very defiant, challenging kid? How do you deal with other parents or family members or friends who don't believe it's possible to discipline without punishing or who think you have to punish all misbehavior?

 

Speaking for my first child-I was a punitive parent. I honestly didn't know any different, and being so young, didn't realize that it had never worked on me, either. :glare: There was nothing I could do upping the ante wise that would ahve made that kid listen. He responded to NOTHING. And I still proceeded, sanding away. What I should have done was do what you are--seek another method. He is my prodigal and I lay most of that blame at my own feet.

 

I changed with my other children, and they are all amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yes, they have bumps, but they are related to their ages and they grow out of them with guidance.

[KS_]

This is mostly going to be me rambling, and looking for input.

 

I'm thinking I need to totally give up on punishment as a means of discipline with my DS. It just has NEVER gotten me good results. I've been reading The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child and it has been, to use language I wouldn't normally use, a very, very convicting read. Pretty much all of the ineffective parenting myths he describes--using harsher and harsher punishments, lecturing, being afraid to praise things the child should already be doing--are things I do.

 

And practically I know that punishment just doesn't work with DS. He gets more and more defiant the more I punish. And it's certainly never led to long-term positive behavioral changes.

 

So, logically, I feel like my DS would probably do much, much better if we focused on positive reinforcement for correct behaviors, a lot of practicing those good behaviors, and ignoring most bad behavior, using punishment only sparingly for extremely serious things. But, I feel such emotional resistance to doing that. I really think, if I'm honest, it's a "But what will people think?" thing. I mean, I have a challenging kid, and if I don't punish him, it will seem like I'm just ignoring his bad behavior, and I'll look like a bad mom. I know that shouldn't matter. But I've realized over the years how much ego I have invested in what people think of my children and of me as a mother, and that's still a struggle.

 

Has anybody given up--or just never used--punishment, at least as a regular or primary means of discipline? How has it worked out for you, particularly if you have a very defiant, challenging kid? How do you deal with other parents or family members or friends who don't believe it's possible to discipline without punishing or who think you have to punish all misbehavior?

 

My parenting techniques have changed drastically over the past 12 years since ds was born. I was raised with the "punish and be consistent with the punishment/don't give in" mentality and so started out as a parent with that mindset. I knew how to be consistent, but ds did not respond well and I really didn't know how I was going to survive (and this was when he was little!). I finally found some new techniques that helped a lot (Transforming the Difficult Child helped tremendously, but still didn't "fix" everything we were struggling with). And a few years ago, I finally read The Explosive Child, which filled in some more of the missing pieces in understanding my ds.

 

Through all of this, dh and I moved from cracking down fast and hard to a more understanding and trying to connect with ds and why he's acting out. We still do use a loss of computer time as a consequence, but I'm honestly not sure it's really effective. He responds best to someone trying to listen and understand why he's upset.

[Ginevra]

Has anybody given up--or just never used--punishment, at least as a regular or primary means of discipline? How has it worked out for you, particularly if you have a very defiant, challenging kid? How do you deal with other parents or family members or friends who don't believe it's possible to discipline without punishing or who think you have to punish all misbehavior?

 

(Hoping this doesn't become something else to add to my list at the end of my signature...)

 

I am not a big user of punishment. Not to say I never use it, but I look at the behavior through the lens of the relationship, in a similar way as I would my dh. If dh failed to take out the trash, I wouldn't punish him, but I wouldn't ignore it, either. I would talk about it and work on the relationship.

 

I came from the thinking of never using punishment and, with 14 years of parenting experience under my belt, I've come to think that might be too high a goal, but I'm hard-pressed to recall the last time I implemented any mode of typical punishment.

 

WRT "other people" - I never made a big announcement of how I don't punish. I haven't had to field a lot of questions, although there have been times I've disagreed with someone promoting spanking IRL. So far, I've been told many times over how pleasant and well-behaved my children are, if they are left in someone else's care. I recently went on a trip for a week with dh and my kids stayed at my MIL's. One SIL told me afterward about something she witnessed my children doing that was very impressive to her. My older son was helping the younger to get ready for swimming, kindly reminding him to get sunscreen and helping him apply it. She told me how sweet it was and that she wanted me to know how they behaved when I was away. :001_smile:

 

P.S. I strongly agree with Joanne's model of "Get-Off-Your-Butt" parenting. That you tell them what needs to be done and if they don't respond, you get off your butt and "help" them respond.

[LibraryLover]

Dh and I have not used punishment...although I didn't allow my oldest to take the car to school for an entire semester when he was 17. That had to be done, but we presented it not as punishment, but as a lesson. ;) A consequence.

 

We've never spanked, done cry it out; we're not big on time out etc.

 

When the children were tiny, I would physically move them from dangerous situations. I have always been very hands on. I didn't tell them things from across the room and expect that they would do it. I still go directly to a child I think needs guidance. I am right there telling them what my expectations are and why I think something should or should not happen and why. I'd not expect a small child to clean a playroom alone, fi. I would help, not punish. I never threw away toys. I tried to understand what a tiny & tired child saw when there were 50 wooden blocks on the floor etc. I recognized that taking them out when you're fresh and excited with an idea is much easier than putting them away. It's not about disobediance or being lazy. It's about feeling overwhlemed. If I put away 40 and the child put away 10, the child was helping and taking responsibility on a manageable level. That was the lesson, and it didn't have to be painful. I'd also say things like "Look with your eyes" instead of 'Don't touch that!" If I needed a resistant child to do something or come with me, I would go to him and take his hand rather than demand, "Get over here!" etc.

 

I know some people laugh. :) It suppose it does sound funny, but dh and I were/are always about tone and kindness. We want connection. When family members feel valued, accepted and connected, the behaviors follow, ime. I've seen it play out over the years in other families. I've also seen good and kind families suffer with issues that were not in their control. My kids are not all grown-up and I know we've probably made mistakes. But I don't have many regrets.

 

I do better with specific examples, so I suppose this is pretty vague. We're not into blind obediance or control, although we do have a more anxious child who has been a bit more challenging. This child can't be pushed against a metaphorical wall. Punishment would have affected this child's soul on the deepest, most negative levels and would have pushed the child away. Instead, there is a deep connection. I don't regret our 'non-punitive' style/philosophy. We talk, we support, we assist, we try to be perfectly clear about our expectations. We accept that we are all works in progress and need to cut each other slack and share our ideas and thoughts.

 

We don't have any neuro issues, so that has helped.

Edited August 17, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Lily_Grace]

Yes. I embraced an alternative to the punitive model for years. I teach, write about, and counsel on ways to have high standards, and discipline, that are not punitive minded.

 

For school aged children, I do believe in consequences, but I try to make them: (Credit to Jane Nelsen, positive discipline writer/leader)

 

1. Respectful

2. Related

3. Reasonable

 

Love and Logic is a program, hands on, that is positive discipline friendly. There are many other writers, also.

 

What other people think? Here:

 

Let's Not Talk About Spanking (relates in theory to more than spanking)

 

I agree with this. At the same time, it's hard to change. My parenting has been a slow, 12 year journey in figuring out not only to handle my child, but myself as well. The tools I was handed and the way I responded to situations left me ill prepared for the job of parenting.

 

I do not disagree with punishment, but I disagree with random or ill-fitting punishment. There is a time and a place for everything. As parents I think it is our first job to teach, though. The first question we should ask ourselves when faced with a situation is "What is the problem?" and the second should be "how can I help him/her fix this?" Course, sometimes those questions have to wait until after a nice long run to get the anger out, but they've helped me to avoid punishment quite a bit.

[Paige]

I was just talking with my DS about this yesterday. He has had a bad couple of months and has been in trouble a lot for silly things. I told him I didn't feel like grounding him anymore because it didn't seem to be working since he has been grounded so much! My philosophy is that if you have to use a discipline method repeatedly, then it's not working. So, I am not one for spanking and I think he is too old anyway (10), but grounding doesn't work. Now, I am not sure what to do for things like telling a girl he's angry with that her mother stinks or not following simple directions like to stay in his room at bedtime instead of coming out to talk to us over and over.

 

What did the book say you should do? I cannot accept that we should do nothing- I don't want him to grow up to be an adult with poor impulse control and a sassy, negative mouth.

[trailofsparks]

I read something years ago that resonated with me and is something I have revisited over the years (wish I could recall the source), which has proved effective in our family, though I will admit that so far we have not had a lot of defiance to deal with. I will also say, when I shared this tidbit with a frustrated mom of a foster child (read: she couldn't discipline with her regular form of spanking as she did with her own children per the legal foster parent contract), she said it worked with her fc.

 

It is this: Rules without a Relationship equals Rebellion. I've remembered it by the 3 Rs, thus the caps. So, of course we, as the parents of our dc, have relationships with our dc - BUT sometimes we get busy w/life and don't give them the attn they need, thus they act out rebelliously especially when we implement punishment for it. Instead if we seek them out and spend more time with them, and get into their world, they automatically soften toward us and respond respectfully toward us.

[Sparkle]

Speaking for my first child-I was a punitive parent. I honestly didn't know any different, and being so young, didn't realize that it had never worked on me, either. :glare: There was nothing I could do upping the ante wise that would ahve made that kid listen. He responded to NOTHING. And I still proceeded, sanding away. What I should have done was do what you are--seek another method. He is my prodigal and I lay most of that blame at my own feet.

 

I changed with my other children, and they are all amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yes, they have bumps, but they are related to their ages and they grow out of them with guidance.

 

:iagree: This was me too. I was way too punitive early on with my oldest, and I do believe it affected our relationship negatively. I also changed with my other dc, and while they are not perfect by any means, they are all delightful children. I rarely punish as I find it doesn't work well. Spank, never.

[LibraryLover]

My kids also helped me figure thngs out. lol It seemed to me that my first was aware of the emotions of others at a very young age. He could feel the disturbances in the force. lol When he was a few weeks old it seemed he could read my mood. I felt such a huge responsibilty to be kind to him. He'd get this worried look on his baby face and the skin around his eyes would crinkle. He hated loud noises. My youngest can also read minds. ;) OK, not really, but she is very intuitive and seems to know exactly the right thing to do in any given situation. She is very easy to parent.

 

Another of my children is much more challenging, much more likely to want to engage for the sake of engagement, and is simply much more anxious and always has been. That made me crazy sometimes. Using all the kindness skills I learned with my oldest helped me to better parent that child. Any anger on my part, any sudden movements etc., ;) could send that child into a tailspin.

 

Personality of the child really does change our parenting. I am grateful for what I've learned from my kids. The challenging one has taught me: Do not engage. Do not escalate already high emotions. The worst times I've had with this child is when I have allowed my own emotions to get the best of me. It's easy to be dragged into drama. It takes a lot of self-control to disengage.

 

 

 

I agree with this. At the same time, it's hard to change. My parenting has been a slow, 12 year journey in figuring out not only to handle my child, but myself as well. The tools I was handed and the way I responded to situations left me ill prepared for the job of parenting.

 

I do not disagree with punishment, but I disagree with random or ill-fitting punishment. There is a time and a place for everything. As parents I think it is our first job to teach, though. The first question we should ask ourselves when faced with a situation is "What is the problem?" and the second should be "how can I help him/her fix this?" Course, sometimes those questions have to wait until after a nice long run to get the anger out, but they've helped me to avoid punishment quite a bit.

Edited August 17, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Penny_P]

I'm not sure I'm following. Like my dd8 is very difficult. If her chore is to do the dishes, how do you ignore her NOT doing the dishes? Do I just wait until she does them and praise that? We would long be out of clean glasses before she would willingly wash them... On a more compliant child your technique might work, but I'm not sure about a sassy kiddo...

[Lolosoli]

Kids Are Worth It: Giving Your Child the Gift of Inner Dicipline by Barbara Coloroso is a MUST read!!!!!!!! It is one of my most favourite books ever! It is definitely an eye opener and a great way to begin a journey of raising children with dignity and mutual respect.

[LibraryLover]

I'm not sure I'm following. Like my dd8 is very difficult. If her chore is to do the dishes, how do you ignore her NOT doing the dishes? Do I just wait until she does them and praise that? We would long be out of clean glasses before she would willingly wash them... On a more compliant child your technique might work, but I'm not sure about a sassy kiddo...

 

 

I am not into 'praise'. I also have a child one might have called 'sassy'. lol

 

I think clear and appropriate expectations are important.

 

If my 8 yr old had the job to do the dishes and she wasn't, I would supervise it for a time, show her how to streamline, review whatever I thought she might have forgotten. I clean quicker with certain music. Maybe program Pandora for some peppy music. She might be overwhelmed. She may be more of a morning person and needs a morning job. Maybe another child is more energetic at night? If I give a child a job I feel they are quite capable of doing, I would expect it to get done. If it wasn't getting done in a timely manner on regular basis, I might think a different job would be better suited to them. I'm not tied to a child doing anything particular. We can switch it up.

 

 

We are a family. We help each other so our family can run more smoothly. I've told my kids I need their help. It's too much and too boring for one person to have to do all of the work.

 

My teens are in charge of cleaning the bathrooms each weekend and doing their own lanudry (even the 12 yr old) for instance. They can choose when they do these things, however. (Well, the bathrooms are done on the weekend.) I don't care if it's done in the morning or night, but that's your job. They just do it. If they didn't clean the bathroom after we've agreed to certain jobs, I would probably not allow them to go to a friends house or to have a friend over until they did, although I am trying to think if I've had to do that. (They are older 12-22.) I'd just rather work it out than punish.

Edited August 17, 2011 by LibraryLover

[butterflymommy]

I don't think it has to be either/ or. We take each child's individual personality/ issues into account and surgically pick our battles. We were very non-punitive for a while but had one daughter really get out of control. The only thing that worked for her was strictly detailing/ enforcing standards and limits. We never insulted, belittled, or physically hurt her but we were strict about taking away privileges and giving her extra chores when she acted out, even if it meant she was constantly losing her privileges. We've always been very conscious of praising good behavior and thanking them for things they do right, so we use a lot of positive reinforcement too.

[SeekingHim77]

Bad choices in life have bad consequences. I think it's very important to teach our children this while they are still in the home and the consequences are safe than wait until they are out there in the real world and the consequences can be dangerous and life changing.

 

I think making the punishment fit the crime is very important. For instance, you use the internet improperly-you lose internet privileges until you prove yourself responsible. I did spank when my kids were little but have found that other forms of discipline are more effective as they get older. Actually, that is only true for my daughter. I spanked my son right up until I decided he was too old for it-around 11 or so. Spankings just haven't been effective with my daughter. In fact, she is so eager to please that I really don't have to discipline her. I rarely have to discipline my son anymore either. If I do, they get chores or lose privileges. Dr. Leonard Sax has written some fascinating books and one of them, Why Gender Matters, discusses why spanking is usually very effective with boys but not with girls.

 

I really think what one mom here said is the key-a good relationship with your children is the most important thing. I've found that if they know you have their best interest at heart, the need for discipline drastically decreases as they get older.

[twoforjoy]

I'm not sure I'm following. Like my dd8 is very difficult. If her chore is to do the dishes, how do you ignore her NOT doing the dishes? Do I just wait until she does them and praise that? We would long be out of clean glasses before she would willingly wash them... On a more compliant child your technique might work, but I'm not sure about a sassy kiddo...

 

The suggestion from the book I'm reading would be that you put a program in place to encourage the child to do chores. So, you'd assign points for each time they did a chore the first time they were asked, and earn rewards for that. If they don't do the chore, the rewards are withheld. And you'd want to structure things to make it as easy as possible for them to do the chore.

 

My problem with my DS is that, if I punished him for not doing the dishes, he'd still refuse to do them. I could say, "Fine, no dishes, no computer tomorrow," and he'd say, "I don't care!" And then I'd get more upset, and end up taking something else away, hoping that, if I took away enough, he'd just do the dishes, but he will NEVER get there. Once he's in defiant mode, there is nothing I can do or take away or threaten that will get him out of it. He'll just dig in his heels further. So after a while I've piled on more punishments than he deserves, and the dishes still wouldn't be done, and everybody is upset.

 

Usually, with my DS, when that does happen, he'll rage and stomp for a while, and then, once I've calmed down, he'll calm down, and eventually he'll apologize and offer to do whatever he was asked to do. Assigning punishments, I'm realizing, just makes it more difficult for him to get to the place where he's willing to do the task on his own, because it makes him so angry and defiant.

 

We've been trying, for about 3-4 days now, a mealtime behavior reward chart. DS has a tendency to drive us crazy at dinner time. He takes forever to come to the table, picks at his food, complains about whatever he's served, spends the entire time asking if he's eaten enough to get dessert, and just keeps getting up and leaving the table before he's done or has been excused. We just cannot have a nice meal. It drives DH particularly crazy, because we usually eat right when he gets home from work, and he'd like to be able to relax a little. So that seemed like a good behavior to tackle first. We've tried all kinds of punishments to get his mealtime behavior to change, and they haven't worked. We started doing a reward chart for meals (he gets points for different things, like coming to the table the first time he's asked, saying grace, trying everything on his plate, saying something positive about the meal, waiting to be excused, etc.), and can earn rewards for them. It's really just dinner that's the problem, but he can earn points at breakfast and lunch as a way to practice those behaviors.

 

Maybe it's just the novelty, but he's been doing awesome. We saw more improvement after two days of positive reinforcement than we've seen in the last six months.

[Robyn]

I'm not sure I'm following. Like my dd8 is very difficult. If her chore is to do the dishes, how do you ignore her NOT doing the dishes? Do I just wait until she does them and praise that? We would long be out of clean glasses before she would willingly wash them... On a more compliant child your technique might work, but I'm not sure about a sassy kiddo...

 

I have found the opposite to be true with my own children. My oldest has always been an easy going, compliant child. I parented him with a punitive mindset, because that is what I grew up with and didn't know any other options were out there.

 

My second child is a volatile ball of energy. Punishing him does not work, and as my oldest approached puberty, I found it wasn't working with him any more either. It was a cycle: I would punish(ground him, take away privileges, etc.), he would act indifferent, I would get frustrated and punish him more.

 

Then I stepped back and realized what a power struggle it had become. I was trying to punish him to the point where he was upset about it. He was putting up a wall. That is not what I want for our relationship.

 

Dh and I are still figuring it out as we go, and sometimes we react poorly out of habit, but we're slowly getting there. And the difference in my 5 year old is like day and night.

[Joanne]

I'm not sure I'm following. Like my dd8 is very difficult. If her chore is to do the dishes, how do you ignore her NOT doing the dishes? Do I just wait until she does them and praise that? We would long be out of clean glasses before she would willingly wash them... On a more compliant child your technique might work, but I'm not sure about a sassy kiddo...

 

My parenting (or child-care-giving) approach is not based on having easy, compliant children. I have a range of compliance with my own 3 children, and have given care to an even wider range as a daycare provider, and before/after school care provider in public schools. I've been an even wider (and sometimes extreme) range as a counselor.

 

I don't ignore non-compliance. I expect my kids to do what I say. Now, I choose what I say carefully, and I do not expect random, inconsistent or petty stuff. I'm willing to be flexible in ways such as my oldest doesn't like indoor chores (which is good, because my dd doesn't like outdoor ones).

 

In the example given, let's establish that the 8 year old has been taught how to do dishes, and that it is a command I have chosen to enforce. Nothing else happens until the dishes are done. No screens, no phones, no play, no snacks. But that reality comes after many interactions where I've taught children in my care that my words mean something, that I am not changing my mind on it and that I will not be imposing unrelated, random punishment.

 

Taking an example out of context of relationship, and history, is a red herring.

 

In non-punitive parenting, "what do you when" questions often miss the point. They beg a formulaic answer; non punitive discipline is not formulaic.

[Joanne]

The suggestion from the book I'm reading would be that you put a program in place to encourage the child to do chores. So, you'd assign points for each time they did a chore the first time they were asked, and earn rewards for that. If they don't do the chore, the rewards are withheld. And you'd want to structure things to make it as easy as possible for them to do the chore.

 

This is sure better than the punitive model.

 

However, I don't use rewards, either. I use "token economies" in very rare, specific circumstances. I would not use them for most children or for routine expectations such as cleaning rooms, and helping with family/community needed housework.

[LibraryLover]

I think you're right twoforjoy. A lot of anxious kids get more anxious and pull away when punishment is the primary mode of 'motivation'. The points program is working probably because it's not personal...and it's very, very clear. Anxious kids, 'sassy' kids, seem driven to to engage & escalate..but then they crash. It makes them feel sad, mad, bad, confused. This is a personality trait, imo, more than anything, and it does take more energy, more patience, more parental finess and skill. And creativity-- as in your points use.

[twoforjoy]

I have found the opposite to be true with my own children. My oldest has always been an easy going, compliant child. I parented him with a punitive mindset, because that is what I grew up with and didn't know any other options were out there.

 

My second child is a volatile ball of energy. Punishing him does not work, and as my oldest approached puberty, I found it wasn't working with him any more either. It was a cycle: I would punish(ground him, take away privileges, etc.), he would act indifferent, I would get frustrated and punish him more.

 

Then I stepped back and realized what a power struggle it had become. I was trying to punish him to the point where he was upset about it. He was putting up a wall. That is not what I want for our relationship.

 

I feel like my DD and my DS are like this. With my DD, if we say "No" to her with a stern face, she'll stop what she's doing. Sometimes she'll burst into tears. She's a pretty naturally compliant, people-pleasing little girl, and she responds pretty well to punishment. That said, I think she'd respond pretty well to anything, because she wants to please.

 

My DS is SO not like that. He would have yelled "You NO!" back at me when I said no to him when he was my DD's age. Or just ignored me totally. We have been in that exact same cycle so many times: I punish, DS either doesn't care or gets more defiant, I get angry and frustrated and punish more, he gets more defiant or indifferent, and on and on. And, honestly, once we get into that power struggle, he'll probably win. He's more stubborn than I am, and I'm the one who's going to end up piling on so many punishments that I end up backing off on some of them, because they were so unreasonable. So, with him, I just need to not get into that struggle in the first place. If I can manage to be as calm and indifferent about his misbehavior as possible, ignoring it if it's not dangerous or serious, he usually seems to realize on his own that he was wrong. Because he's not a terrible kid, and he's pretty smart. He knows right and wrong, and he knows when he's done something wrong, and I think I just get in the way of him admitting that and making changes when I try to force the matter with punishment.

Edited August 17, 2011 by twoforjoy

[Parrothead]

Has anybody given up--or just never used--punishment, at least as a regular or primary means of discipline? How has it worked out for you, particularly if you have a very defiant, challenging kid? How do you deal with other parents or family members or friends who don't believe it's possible to discipline without punishing or who think you have to punish all misbehavior?

I don't explain these things well, and often get flamed for my thoughts on parenting. But I think it is important to share. Otherwise we end up in bad places as parents.

 

We don't do punishments. Both dh and I were punished as children and one of us more severely than the other. I can see how detrimental that was for the both of us. How it shaped us and the things we had to outgrow.

 

We do have high expectations and we are strict about what we see are manners and inter-family respect. We expect to be obeyed without having to repeat ourselves. At the same time we respect dd's right to be an individual.

 

It is still hard for dh to stay out of the punishment mentality. I've almost always stuck to consequences and really believe that acceptable behaviors need to be modeled. I will say that I have a fairly simple child to parent. She wants to please and that has made things easier than some.

 

Joanne's three R's are what we strive for when it comes to behaviors that need to be corrected. I also thing a parent needs to know what motivates a child and work with that knowledge. Since children are as different as snowflakes, their motivations are also. What motivates my dd may not motivate another kid. So exactly what I do won't much help.

 

Starting a new way of life (because that is what you are essentially describing) will take time. You'll have to be prepared for questions and have lots of bean dip handy. You may even have to be prepared to drop people until you get the results you are looking for. Because your kid will test the new boundaries. It will be like having a toddler again. But a toddler that can talk back and too big to pick up and carry to his/her room.

[twoforjoy]

This is sure better than the punitive model.

 

However, I don't use rewards, either. I use "token economies" in very rare, specific circumstances. I would not use them for most children or for routine expectations such as cleaning rooms, and helping with family/community needed housework.

 

My concern with rewards is that DS will come to expect them. He's a kid who, if he gets an extra half hour of computer time for being especially good one day, will spend the next two weeks insisting that he gets an hour and a half of computer time every day and I'm terribly unfair for not giving it to him. I do think, at this point, we need some tangible positive rewards, just because I have been SO negative with him the last couple of months and because he's had some big adjustments lately--he went from being an only child for almost six years to having two little siblings in the last 16 months--and we really need to jump start some changes, for both of us. But I'd prefer to use non-reward methods in the long-term.

 

I think a big issue, too, is that I often don't take the time to distinguish between stuff that I find annoying or irritating and stuff that's really a problem. Like, it drives me insane when DS runs back and forth across the house, or when he jumps on the couch, but he's a 7-year-old boy, and we've got a small house with a small yard, and those are things that aren't hurting anybody and that he's not going to be doing ten years from now. But I have a tendency to try to get him to stop it, and I think that makes it less effective when I want to stop a genuinely problematic behavior. I'm a person who kind of thrives on peace and quiet, and he's a kid who is constantly bumping into things, making a ruckus, and just generally disrupting my peace and quiet, and then I get anxious and annoyed.

 

Same with saying no. My instinct to most requests that DS makes is to say no. Why? I have no idea. I think maybe I just feel like I have some moral responsibility to say no as much as possible, so he doesn't get spoiled or think he can always get his own way. Plus, I don't want to be inconvenienced. But, most of the things I say no to are things that, if I think about it, there really was no reason to say no to, and so then when I say no to something I should say no to, it's less effective.

 

Thinking about it, I don't think it's just punishment, but that I just relate to DS so, so negatively, and realizing that I need to make serious changes in that. Because when I get into these really negative places with him, I don't enjoy him, I don't feel good about him, and I don't feel good about myself as a mom. It's like I'm just constantly trying to manage his behavior and never just enjoying his company or who he is as a person. I think I just need to really focus on being as positive with him as I can, on saying yes to whatever I can reasonably say yes to and saving no for serious things, and for just tolerating immature and/or annoying behavior that might grate on me but isn't actually causing any harm, and reserving my efforts at changing behavior for things that really matter.

Edited August 17, 2011 by twoforjoy

[JennyD]

This is mostly going to be me rambling, and looking for input.

 

I'm thinking I need to totally give up on punishment as a means of discipline with my DS. It just has NEVER gotten me good results. I've been reading The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child and it has been, to use language I wouldn't normally use, a very, very convicting read. Pretty much all of the ineffective parenting myths he describes--using harsher and harsher punishments, lecturing, being afraid to praise things the child should already be doing--are things I do.

 

And practically I know that punishment just doesn't work with DS. He gets more and more defiant the more I punish. And it's certainly never led to long-term positive behavioral changes.

 

So, logically, I feel like my DS would probably do much, much better if we focused on positive reinforcement for correct behaviors, a lot of practicing those good behaviors, and ignoring most bad behavior, using punishment only sparingly for extremely serious things. But, I feel such emotional resistance to doing that. I really think, if I'm honest, it's a "But what will people think?" thing. I mean, I have a challenging kid, and if I don't punish him, it will seem like I'm just ignoring his bad behavior, and I'll look like a bad mom. I know that shouldn't matter. But I've realized over the years how much ego I have invested in what people think of my children and of me as a mother, and that's still a struggle.

 

Has anybody given up--or just never used--punishment, at least as a regular or primary means of discipline? How has it worked out for you, particularly if you have a very defiant, challenging kid? How do you deal with other parents or family members or friends who don't believe it's possible to discipline without punishing or who think you have to punish all misbehavior?

 

I would have to say that this book tops my list of Books That Rocked My World. Indeed, I can't think of another book that so changed my mind, about anything. It was like he was inside my head (not to mention my house) methodically shooting down my unexamined assumptions with actual empirical evidence.

 

I have tried very hard to adopt this approach and succeed only a fraction of the time. When I do, it is amazingly, astoundingly effective. We went through a bad patch with my 6yo earlier this year and at my wits end, I pulled out the Kazdin and stayed up all night rereading it. In the morning I refocused my energies in a new direction and all of the many months of problems literally went away overnight.

 

Why, then, can't I do this all the time? That is the question, and I don't have a remotely good answer. Clearly it's the way to go, but I find that positive parenting takes a level of energy and patience that I frequently just don't have. Which, of course, just results in situations that further sap my patience and energy. DH, despite being a basically mild-mannered person who is very oriented towards empirical evidence to boot, finds it even harder.

 

As for 'what will people think,' I too find myself all too often doing Parenting Theater. It is just really, really hard to go against those cultural expectations. When it comes to family, though, I have to give mad props to my mother for open-mindedness. Back when I was having all those difficulties with my 6yo, I told her what was going on and what I was trying to do. She was very interested and started incorporating some of the ideas when caring for my brother's child (whom she watches often). Like me, she was blown away by the sea change, and she says that she only wishes she had known about this 40 years ago.

 

Finally, I have seen that Coloroso book recommended so many times. I think I just need to go ahead and read it already.

[Lily_Grace]

I'm not sure I'm following. Like my dd8 is very difficult. If her chore is to do the dishes, how do you ignore her NOT doing the dishes? Do I just wait until she does them and praise that? We would long be out of clean glasses before she would willingly wash them... On a more compliant child your technique might work, but I'm not sure about a sassy kiddo...

 

Not in our house. In ours the rule is "chores must be done before _____". Insert any wanted activity in the blank. It is very simple. You turn off the tv and say "you may watch as soon as the dishes are done." Then you put away the dolls she's playing with and say "you may play with the dolls as soon as the dishes are done." And repeat ad nauseum. It takes a bit the first few times until they realize you're dead serious about meeting expectations.

 

Younger children get choices (do you want to hand wash or use the dishwasher, for example) but about that age we also put into place a contract in our house that gave leeway for chores. He filled in the time I could expect them done by and after the three of us approved the contract we all signed. We committed to no nagging before the time, he committed to doing them without constant reminders.

 

 

Here is a situation where we did use punishment. DS12 failed two of his classes in public school last year. Not because he couldn't do the work, but because he chose not to for some big projects. As parents we did everything we possibly could with the limited communication from the school - he had time to do the work when he got home in a quiet kitchen or at his desk. He had a room full of reference material to use. He had the computer at his disposal. He had a planner we went over to help him with time management. We did everything we could think of, but he chose to not do the work. As a parent, it is embarrassing for me to admit my child did not have the work ethic I though he did.

His punishment this year is akin to what an adult would face in the real world. He is back home for a repeat year of 6th grade but for the first time, he has to purchase his books. He is on a payment plan for 12 months for what we spent on new curricula this year. Yeah, it hurts. But it's getting through to him the message that an education is valuable and not to be wasted.

 

Kids Are Worth It: Giving Your Child the Gift of Inner Dicipline by Barbara Coloroso is a MUST read!!!!!!!! It is one of my most favourite books ever! It is definitely an eye opener and a great way to begin a journey of raising children with dignity and mutual respect.

 

This book is wonderful. I have owned about 10 copies in the past few years, mostly because I loan it out and it's reluctant to come back.

[laughing lioness]

My husband parents from the mind-set that discipline is "to disciple." He has "parented" hundreds of children (he is a psych- he is often "hired" by parents to help learn how to parent, or "hired" as a surrogate parent).

 

His belief is that if the relationship is built on trust and mutual respect then the child will want to learn from the "parent."

This is why is so very, very important that a parent never, ever lie (not even little, teeny white lies), and that the parent always follows through on what they tell kids. When they don't they are teaching the kid that they can't be trusted and that it is o.k. to lie.

He does give consequences. He is very, very firm- strict even. We have almost NO rules in our home. We parent by principal. He is adored by kids. He is loved by his own.

[JessieC]

We rarely use punishment and this seems to work at our house. I have been very influenced by Alfie Kohn and books including How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen, Kids Are Worth It, and Children:The Challenge. My view now is that punishment is not a very effective form of discipline, though in some situations it probably makes sense.

 

Good luck to you!

[Orthodox6]

When horns lock repeatedly and non-productively, family therapy is worth trying. Even when a parent is "right" about some things, a parent can learn more fruitful methods for dealing with family interactions. The children also learn.

 

I also distinguish between "punishment" and "consequences." The latter word may be more contemporary jargon; however, it carries quite a different set of layers in meaning.

[Aubrey]

I really think, if I'm honest, it's a "But what will people think?" thing. I mean, I have a challenging kid, and if I don't punish him, it will seem like I'm just ignoring his bad behavior, and I'll look like a bad mom. I know that shouldn't matter. But I've realized over the years how much ego I have invested in what people think of my children and of me as a mother, and that's still a struggle.

 

First--if you're taking your kid aside to correct, punish, redirect--whatever you choose to do--then no one should know how/if you "punish." I think this takes some pressure off of you AND people standing by, & it gives the child more dignity. Who wants to get in trouble in front of people.

 

Has anybody given up--or just never used--punishment, at least as a regular or primary means of discipline? How has it worked out for you, particularly if you have a very defiant, challenging kid? How do you deal with other parents or family members or friends who don't believe it's possible to discipline without punishing or who think you have to punish all misbehavior?

 

I don't know if I'll ever get to the point of completely giving up "punishment," but I do know I like the Maxwells' model of re-teaching much better--philosophically. The heat of the moment is sometimes another thing, lol!

 

One thing I wanted to say, though--may not be totally relevant--dh & I have found that stopping punishment (or at least certain kinds) for periods helps *us* to refocus our parenting. We don't tell the kids--Hey! No time-out for 2 weeks! LOL But when we agree to things like this, it reminds us to *think* about how we parent & lasts longer than whatever time we've set. It helps us to rebuild relationships that have maybe been let to slide a little too much, that kind of thing. The kids are usually more open w/ us w/in a few days... I think my experience gives credence to what you're saying. :001_smile:

 

:grouphug: & good luck, whatever you decide to do. Parenting is hard. :grouphug:

[SeekingHim77]

Oops!

Edited August 17, 2011 by Melanie32
Oops! Wrong thread!

[Pamela H in Texas]

You have been given some very good advice in this thread. Joanne's posts are pretty much how I have parented much of the last 14 years.

 

However, I want to add one more thing. Love and acceptance come FIRST. A person who is stressed, overwhelmed, fearful, etc cannot learn the lesson you are trying to teach. Many more challenging children are biologically or environmentally stressed in some way. If you can connect with them on a personal, emotional level, not letting your own emotions get in the way, you can really make a profound difference on the level at which children operate, allowing them to learn from the teaching based discipline more readily (but it also cuts the amount of teaching necessary down because of the very essence and quality of learning love).

 

Anyway, so I guess I want to stress love and acceptance, the relationship.

 

As for your original question. Yes, we stopped using punishment. We were very strict, but non-punitive disciplinarians. We had to be because it was necessary to reach an extremely challenging child. I wish I had known about the "method" we're using now then though. I think my son would have benefited even better with it than the teaching-based discipline I've touted on this board all these years. This still has those components but teaching is no longer primary. Love is.

[Chris in VA]

Speaking for my first child-I was a punitive parent. I honestly didn't know any different, and being so young, didn't realize that it had never worked on me, either. :glare: There was nothing I could do upping the ante wise that would ahve made that kid listen. He responded to NOTHING. And I still proceeded, sanding away. What I should have done was do what you are--seek another method. He is my prodigal and I lay most of that blame at my own feet.

 

.

 

:grouphug:

 

To the OP:

 

There comes a point where you just can't up the ante any more, doesn't there? When you've grounded them for the rest of their lives, taken everything away, etc--What is left is a damaged relationship.

 

So , I think there's got to be a balance, and I applaud you for looking for something else that might work.

Wishing you the best in that endeavor.

[LibraryLover]

Kids Are Worth It: Giving Your Child the Gift of Inner Dicipline by Barbara Coloroso is a MUST read!!!!!!!! It is one of my most favourite books ever! It is definitely an eye opener and a great way to begin a journey of raising children with dignity and mutual respect.

 

 

:iagree: *Love* Barbara Coloroso.

[jubygirl]

I read something years ago that resonated with me and is something I have revisited over the years (wish I could recall the source), which has proved effective in our family, though I will admit that so far we have not had a lot of defiance to deal with. I will also say, when I shared this tidbit with a frustrated mom of a foster child (read: she couldn't discipline with her regular form of spanking as she did with her own children per the legal foster parent contract), she said it worked with her fc.

 

It is this: Rules without a Relationship equals Rebellion. I've remembered it by the 3 Rs, thus the caps. So, of course we, as the parents of our dc, have relationships with our dc - BUT sometimes we get busy w/life and don't give them the attn they need, thus they act out rebelliously especially when we implement punishment for it. Instead if we seek them out and spend more time with them, and get into their world, they automatically soften toward us and respond respectfully toward us.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:Love it! Yes, I want to try this also!

[LibraryLover]

I think you are right to pick your battles. Not everything needs the same level of care. Some things do not matter, even while they seem so important at the time. If the child doesn't even know they are doing soemthing that is bugging you, but you say nothing (choosing, OK this is not important to me), then the child doesn't even have a feeling of wanting to argue or think he's gotten away with something. It's a non issue in his mind.

 

I do think it's important to consider a few things that are most important and then not make certain other things an issue. What is normal little boy stuff that absolutely will be outgrown, and what is the important life lesson stuff that needs attention? There is a difference. I've learned that most things are not a big deal. That's when we do some deep soul-searching. We can't make everything a Big Deal. It's not healthy for anyone, and can set a perfectly lovely child up to think he's bad...and we know that never turns out well. They have to expereince success. Success breeds success, even in behaviors. So when the kid is jumping up and down in excited and normal way, but you want to scream your head off (btdt lol) you stuff it down, and pick that time to say, "Thank you so much for helping brother find his socks earlier! That was a huge help to me!" You might even find he stops bouncing long enough to listen. He feels pleased, maybe he even chills out enough to do something besides bounce. Or, if you can't fnd anything about socks in the day, lol, you could say, "Hey, lets go rinse some berries for our snack!"

 

It's a win-win for the relationship each time we can replace a negative interaction with a postivie one.

Edited August 17, 2011 by LibraryLover

[deacongirl]

This has been a very helpful thread and I am looking forward to reading the suggested books. I think that Transforming the Difficult Child and Hold on to Your Kids would also be relevant and useful for the OP. Oh and also Raising your Spirited Child. Thanks to all for sharing your encouragement and wisdom.

[jbemom]

Speaking for my first child-I was a punitive parent. I honestly didn't know any different, and being so young, didn't realize that it had never worked on me, either. :glare: There was nothing I could do upping the ante wise that would ahve made that kid listen. He responded to NOTHING. And I still proceeded, sanding away. What I should have done was do what you are--seek another method. He is my prodigal and I lay most of that blame at my own feet.

 

I changed with my other children, and they are all amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yes, they have bumps, but they are related to their ages and they grow out of them with guidance.

 

:iagree:I could have written this post! I have a son that is 25...I was a single parent from day one until I got married when he was 15. He resented my getting married, which did nothing to help our already strained relationship. I vowed to do things differently with my daughter and for the most part, I have. I have a wonderful relationship with my daughter. I'm not sure how much of that is because she has a different personality then he does or how much has to do with different parenting methods (helps that I am married this time around!) but I hope that the foundation of trust and love we are building now will help us through those tough teenage years.

Edited August 17, 2011 by jbemom

[TheAutumnOak]

Bad choices in life have bad consequences. I think it's very important to teach our children this while they are still in the home and the consequences are safe than wait until they are out there in the real world and the consequences can be dangerous and life changing.

 

I think making the punishment fit the crime is very important. For instance, you use the internet improperly-you lose internet privileges until you prove yourself responsible. I did spank when my kids were little but have found that other forms of discipline are more effective as they get older.

 

I really think what one mom here said is the key-a good relationship with your children is the most important thing. I've found that if they know you have their best interest at heart, the need for discipline drastically decreases as they get older.

 

:iagree:

[justamouse]

:grouphug:

 

 

:grouphug:

 

I'm not sure I'm following. Like my dd8 is very difficult. If her chore is to do the dishes, how do you ignore her NOT doing the dishes? Do I just wait until she does them and praise that? We would long be out of clean glasses before she would willingly wash them... On a more compliant child your technique might work, but I'm not sure about a sassy kiddo...

 

 

Here's the thing, the time to teach these things is when children are toddlers. That's when habits start to set in, and that's when it's so easy to develop a GOOD habit. At 8 you are retraining BAD habits.

 

When toddlers want to help, you let them help as they can, and if they do it wrong, you invest the TIME to do it right with them--that's the part where we fall off the beam today because we're so busy rushing around. Everything is a stop to get to the next thing. My 9 yo was just upstairs helping me fold clothes because she wanted to. Because she's been doing it for years, and she loves the time we get to spend with eachother.

 

I learned that when my grandmother told me the story of how my aunt washed the china with pledge-all of it, to HELP. :D Grandma thanked her, gave her copious kisses, and when she was in bed, took it all out and washed it. Who would do that now? Instead, the old me would scream that they had just done something wrong, that they had wasted my time and now I was going to have to do it all over again! Man, what a crushed little spirit that child would be.

 

Now, this is me looking back and with the wisdom of hindsight, seeing how it worked for us. But doing it was an organic process and I made lots of mistakes. I had no one to learn from, but was given little lessons that I remember to this day of God showing me, "This is the way."

We developed a culture of family. I learned HOW to be attentive to them. I had grown up in a house where my mother was IN the house, and I was IN the house but we were not connected (there's a lot of selfishness wrapped up in that way of parenting). Learning that-that first part of relationship-was the key.

 

I learned that when I met one of the best mothers I had ever seen. She had had an incredible mother, and their whole family adored eachother. She PAID ATTENTION to her kids. When they spoke, she listened. They were people worthy of her respect. She took joy in their joy, and was sad for their sadness. Not in a patronizing way, but truthfully. I had the privileged to spend a lot of time with her, and though she was the same age as I-she was LIGHT YEARS ahead of me as a mother. That focused attention developed their relationship. That relationship became so precious, that the children didn't want to DO wrong. She didn't --borrowing a phrase from Joanne-catastrophize things. Once the son had filled up the sink upstairs and poured red dye in it, trying to figure out where the water went. The sink overflowed onto the floor and red water poured out of the ceiling on the bottom floor. To say she was animated while telling me what had happened is an understatement, but she didn't wig out on him. She praised his curiosity, and his thinking, but admonished, "We can't do THAT again, BJ, can we, because look what happened to the ceiling!" with a big smile on her face. They were KIDS and she understood this. I think sometimes we have these babies, and expect them to KNOW everything without making mistakes. One friend told me the story of how he and his brothers helped 'wash' his dad's car with sand. :001_huh: Dad didn't freak. Dad knew they were little and didn't know better. (is it that we are so busy that we have no time for them to learn their lessons?)

 

So, I learned to give them my FULL attention. I take care of their needs, we have fun and we talk. We were a team. All of us. We developed respect. We go out in the yard together and work. We go to the lake together and have fun.

 

Now, because my family is huge, we had to do things for sheer survival that ended up being what saved us.

 

My Dh works a lot-and back then worked more. Sunday was his only day home for many years and so Sunday became sacred to us. We did not go ANYWHERE on a Sunday, Dad needed rest and WE needed to reconnect with him. So I made a huge meal and we rested-together. We played games, we watched movies, but the day centered around US. That gave us an emotional connection and a focus that put our family first. We, the core of this family comes first. All else is ancillary. But that culture that we developed, gave them the emotional stability to know that THEY were first. Even now, Sunday is OURday. Yes, we do things, but we decide to do as a family. (we did this even when we didn't go to church, but now that we do, it's even more wonderful)

 

Believe me, when they are sitting around a table, playing, eating popcorn and someone says something mean and I have to send them to another room? That person is CRUSHED. So, the mean words don't come. We play so much together (hiking, drawing, baseball, football, swimming-life) that to be away from the family because you've done something wrong hurts.

 

I'm not really good at writing out what works for us and why, or even pinpointing where it does work, so this is probably disjointed, but I hope it helps somewhat.

Edited August 18, 2011 by justamouse

[TheAutumnOak]

:grouphug:

 

Here's the thing, the time to teach these things is when children are toddlers. That's when habits start to set in, and that's when it's so easy to develop a GOOD habit. At 8 you are retraining BAD habits.

 

When toddlers want to help, you let them help as they can, and if they do it wrong, you invest the TIME to do it right with them--that's the part where we fall off the beam today because we're so busy rushing around. Everything is a stop to get to the next thing. My 9 yo was just upstairs helping me fold clothes because she wanted to. Because she's been doing it for years, and she loves the time we get to spend with eachother.

 

I learned that when my grandmother told me the story of how my aunt washed the china with pledge-all of it, to HELP. :D Grandma thanked her, gave her copious kisses, and when she was in bed, took it all out and washed it. Who would do that now? Instead, the old me would scream that they had just done something wrong, that they had wasted my time and now I was going to have to do it all over again! Man, what a crushed little spirit that child would be.

 

Now, this is me looking back and with the wisdom of hindsight, seeing how it worked for us. But doing it was an organic process and I made lots of mistakes. I had no one to learn from, but was given little lessons that I remember to this day of God showing me, "This is the way."

 

We developed a culture of family. I learned HOW to be attentive to them. I had grown up in a house where my mother was IN the house, and I was IN the house but we were not connected (there's a lot of selfishness wrapped up in that way of parenting). Learning that-that first part of relationship-was the key.

 

I learned that when I met one of the best mothers I had ever seen. She had had an incredible mother, and their whole family adored eachother. She PAID ATTENTION to her kids. When they spoke, she listened. They were people worthy of her respect. She took joy in their joy, and was sad for their sadness. Not in a patronizing way, but truthfully. I had the privileged to spend a lot of time with her, and though she was the same age as I-she was LIGHT YEARS ahead of me as a mother. That focused attention developed their relationship. That relationship became so precious, that the children didn't want to DO wrong. She didn't --borrowing a phrase from Joanne-catastrophize things. Once the son had filled up the sink upstairs and poured red dye in it, trying to figure out where the water went. The sink overflowed onto the floor and red water poured out of the ceiling on the bottom floor. To say she was animated while telling me what had happened is an understatement, but she didn't wig out on him. She praised his curiosity, and his thinking, but admonished, "We can't do THAT again, BJ, can we because look what happened to the ceiling!" with a big smile on her face.

 

So, I learned to give them my FULL attention. I take care of their needs, we have fun and we talk. We were a team. All of us. We developed respect. We go out in the yard together and work. We go to the lake together and have fun.

 

Now, because my family is huge, we had to do things for sheer survival that ended up being what saved us.

 

My Dh works a lot-and back then worked more. Sunday was his only day home for many years and so Sunday became sacred to us. We did not go ANYWHERE on a Sunday, Dad needed rest and WE needed to reconnect with him. So I made a huge meal and we rested-together. We played games, we watched movies, but the day centered around US. That gave us an emotional connection and a focus that put our family first. We, the core of this family comes first. All else is ancillary. But that culture that we developed, gave them the emotional stability to know that THEY were first. Even now, Sunday is OURday. Yes, we do things, but we decide to do as a family. (we did this even when we didn't go to church, but now that we do, it's even more wonderful)

 

Believe me, when they are sitting around a table, playing, eating popcorn and someone says something mean and I have to send them to another room? That person is CRUSHED. So, the mean words don't come. We play so much together (hiking, drawing, baseball, football, swimming-life) that to be away from the family because you've done something wrong hurts.

 

I'm not really good at writing out what works for us and why, or even pinpointing where it does work, so this is probably disjointed, but I hope it helps somewhat.

 

This post makes a lot of sense to me...I can be a very selfish mom, and this has given me much to think about...

[LibraryLover]

I see some of what you're saying justamouse, but I do have some thoughts. :)

 

I don't think normal child behaviors at any age need 'retraining' as much as they need time and maturity. Some (most) behaviors are just normal (annoying) little child behaviors. What a toddler does is not the same, ime, as what as a 7 seven year old does.

 

Understanding of normal congnitive development has to play an important role in parenting. Otherwise we'd all be going around thinking that a newborn who nurses will become a 12 yr old who does. :D

 

Keeping our expectations in line with ability and maturity is going to save us all a heap of worrying and 'training' concerns.

Edited August 18, 2011 by LibraryLover

[justamouse]

This post makes a lot of sense to me...I can be a very selfish mom, and this has given me much to think about...

 

I was a really selfish mom and it caused a LOT of friction in my marriage because it was something my Dh saw, but I couldn't. Seeing HOW it should work helped me understand where I had it wrong.

[justamouse]

I see some of what you're saying justamouse, but I do have some issues. :)

 

I don't think normal child behaviors at any age need 'retraining' more than they need time and maturity. Some (most) behaviors are just normal (annoying) little child behaviors. What a toddler does is not the same, ime, as what as a 7 seven year old does.

 

No, absolutely, each age brings it's lessons. But those that I've trained from a toddler this way-I've never had defiance from them. All 6 of them-never defiance. Appropriate chores, and yes, age related issues, but they listen to us. The lack of defiance comes for the relationship that was built and from the joy they took in helping.

 

Understanding of normal congnitive development has to play an important role in parenting. Otherwise we'd all be going around thinking that a newborn who nurses will become a 12 yr old who does. :D

 

Keeping our expectations in line with ability and maturity is going to save us all a heap of worrying and 'training' concerns.

 

I agree.

[LibraryLover]

I am thinking about defiance.

 

Defiance is an interesting issue. If we have wrong expectations, are we not setting our children up to fail, or try to think on their feet (defy) when they feel stuck/ashamed/fearful? I think wrong expectations at young ages creates conflict , confusion and inner turmoil to no good end.

 

What is obvious to us is not always obvious to children.

 

Escpecially those who might have more challenging personalities.

Edited August 18, 2011 by LibraryLover

[justamouse]

I am thinking about defiance.

 

Defiance is an interesting issue. If we have wrong expectations, are we not setting our children up to fail, or try to think on their feet (defy) when they feel stuck/ashamed/fearful? I think wrong expectations at young ages creates conflict , confusion and inner turmoil to no good end.

 

What is obvious to us is not always obvious to children.

 

Escpecially those who might have more challenging personalities.

 

There's a hundred things that go into it.

 

If your kid is tired and hungry and you take him to Shoprite and he has a meltdown in the cart because you're in there two hours-it's not the kid's fault.

 

If you have to go to the Dr and you're in the waiting room, you forgot a snack, or a book, or SOMETHING for this little person to occupy themselves with and the kid starts to meltdown, it's not the kid's fault. And, unless the child is old enough to read by themselves, realize that you are going to be the main occupation by reading, or playing finger games, or whathave you.

 

Are they fed? Are they warm? Are they too hot? Are they too tired? Is is amazingly boring and long? And then place expectations on them that an ADULT struggles under-it's not the kid's fault.

 

"What is obvious to us is not always obvious to children."

 

SO TRUE.

 

I think, somewhere along the line, we forgot that they need to be TAUGHT. It takes too much time, and we expect them to know it, watch us do it and KNOW.

 

"Go clean your room."

 

Defiance.

 

Well, have they been TAUGHT how to clean their room? Has the parent sat in there with them on an afternoon and said, "Everything has a place, let's put these kitchen toys over here, in this bin. Now you pick up one and place it in," and on and on until the room is clean. And then, do it again another day, until one day, they run in and do it by the time you've reached the top of the stairs.

 

If a parent doesn't *teach* them, how are they supposed to know? Or, has it gotten to the point where it's a disaster, there's mess everywhere and overwhelming to the child? And now the kid is having a melt down and whose fault is it? The parents. They were the adult, they let it get out of control and now the child is made to suffer the parent's lack of diligence. Meltdown and defiance occur. PLease, most adults get overwhelmed when they've let something get out of control and don't know where to start. A child doesn't ahve the self control to know when their room needs to be picked up-only after they've been taught does that come. And self control --hell, how many adults don't have it?

 

Children take TIME.

Edited August 18, 2011 by justamouse

[Joanne]

Children take TIME.

 

They do. Intentionality, knowledge of developmental stages, and deliberateness.

 

But another reality is this. Most kids will grow up "just fine" if they've been raised in between extremes. Very often, particularly in the early years, what we "do" when we want to correct their behavior simply bides time until they grow out of that stage. You won't find a 16 year old (non special needs) kid pulling off your glasses like you will a 6 month old. You won't have a 12 year old turn off the computer repeatedly like you will a 2 year old. You will very rarely have a 13 year old who eats like a picky 3 year old.

 

The vast majority of kids are weaned, potty trained, sleeping through the night by school age. You can't love or attach them into greater maturity, and you can't punish them into it, either.

 

 

Really, it doesn't matter so much in terms of their development whether we occassionally spank, use time out, set up a token economy or develop a non punitive hybrid like I did. Most kids, regardless of parenting (again, non extremes) grow up just fine.

 

There is not linear projection between how we deal with them running away from us as toddlers, not cleaning up their toys at 3, not cleaning their rooms as teens. You don't *create* a child, or an issue by how these are dealt with unless you totally ignore them or totally abuse them.

 

The reason parenting boards are so repetitive is because kids go through similar stages, regardless of the parenting style.

 

Research shows, interestingly, kids do best in families in the following order from best to worst:

 

1. Authoritative

2. Authoritarian

3. Indulgent

4. Permissive

Edited August 18, 2011 by Joanne

[SeekingHim77]

Great post Joanne and so true. :001_smile:

[weddell]

Someone already mentioned him, but I really like the book Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason by Alfie Kohn. It talks about a lot of the things already covered in this thread.

 

 

[justamouse]

Research shows, interestingly, kids do best in families in the following order from best to worst:

 

1. Authoritative

2. Authoritarian

3. Indulgent

4. Permissive

 

I agree with what you said above. But this list-isn't this where people of Pearl persuasion go, "See? we told you so?" And then get the switch?