abortion and circumcision...correlation?

[ocelotmom]

Elsewhere, In the recent circumcision kerfuffle, someone made a comment to me about how it's so wrong that all the pro-choice people are anti-circumcision. This made me examine my own views on the subject. While I would vote pro-choice, and would at least consider voting anti-circumcision, my actual internal views are more complex than either of those black and white terms encompasses, and are pretty much internally consistent.

[Carpe]

Elsewhere, In the recent circumcision kerfuffle, someone made a comment to me about how it's so wrong that all the pro-choice people are anti-circumcision.

 

Both pro-choice and anti-circ are based on the prochoice idea that one should have autonomy over their own sexual organs. Women can chose when/if to house growing people in their uteruses and men can chose when/if to remove their foreskin. A boy can be circ'd at 5 or 10, or 50 or 100, he cannot ever be uncircumsized once it's done.

 

That makes perfect sense to me. The number of people who seem to be anti-abortion and pro-circumcision are the ones who confuse me. All other combinations make sense. Pro-life and anti-circ is protecting a child life and limb from conception. That makes sense. Pro-choice and pro-circ is a parent's get the final say perspective, which also makes sense. But why would one be pro-circ and pro-life? Protect a child's life, but not limb, from conception? :confused:

[Lostinabook]

I haven't read any other replies so sorry if this has already been covered. I can't answer the poll b/c although dh & I chose to leave our son intact, I have no problem with others making an informed decision to circumcise so I don't think I could really label myself as opposed to circumcision.

[twoforjoy]

I've never really thought about it, but I guess I have the same view on both: I don't personally think it's right, I wouldn't personally do it, but I do think people with different convictions should have the legal right to act in accord with their own conscience. I'd like to see neither happen (or at least only happen in rare, necessary circumstances), but I'd prefer to see that shift come as a cultural change rather than by a legislative fiat (which I don't think would work, anyway). I do not support outlawing either.

[texasmama]

My husband is a butcher. I render my own beef lard. It would work fine with shortening though I imagine.

 

How does one do this? It sounds interesting and complicated?:D

[Teachin'Mine]

I can't bring myself to post a picture.

 

It's a 17-day-old duck embryo boiled in the egg and eaten whole.

 

Highlight to read... if you dare. :tongue_smilie:

 

Note to self. When someone says "if you dare" - don't!!! :tongue_smilie:

 

Thank you for leaving out the visual aids! :D

[texasmama]

No not really. You can buy suet in the store for dirt cheap (it looks like big chunks of pure fat).

 

There are some basic instructions here:

 

http://cookingkate.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/make-your-own-beef-tallow/

 

That will give you a better yield. I've done it a lazier way and just cooked the roughly cut up pieces on top of the stove and poured the fat into a fine mesh strainer into a jar.

 

Who knew? (Adds this to bucket list.)

[Teachin'Mine]

I can't help but get excited when people talk about food. :blushing:

 

It's my favorite subject.

 

 

:lol:

 

Mine too! Although haggis and this new duck thing are right up there with liver.

[jujsky]

I chose "other" because I am pro-choice, and not for or against circumcision. Also, I don't believe pro-choice automatically = abortion. Pro-choice is the right to choose or not choose to birth a child. With circumcision, I personally feel it us up to the child to decide what to do with his body, but I do understand why many people choose to circumcise their sons, and I see nothing wrong with that. Allowing a child to choose or choosing for your child -- I think in both cases the parents are doing what they think is best for the child.

[ocelotmom]

:lol:

 

Mine too! Although haggis and this new duck thing are right up there with liver.

 

I adore liver. I used to think I hated it. Then a dorm-mate who was originally from India came back from a visit to her parents with curried chicken livers. I tried one and decided that, OK, I like liver, but only prepared this way.

 

Then I tried liverwurst, and decided that I liked it prepared that way, too. But still not plain old liver.

 

Then I tried it in a few more settings, and eventually I realized that I actually really like liver. I have yet to run across a version I didn't like.

 

No desire whatsoever to try either haggis or the duck thing, though. I'll eat liver and kidney, which process waste out of the bloodstream, but I draw the line at intestines. For now, anyways.

[Aggie]

Both pro-choice and anti-circ are based on the prochoice idea that one should have autonomy over their own sexual organs. Women can chose when/if to house growing people in their uteruses and men can chose when/if to remove their foreskin. A boy can be circ'd at 5 or 10, or 50 or 100, he cannot ever be uncircumsized once it's done.

 

That makes perfect sense to me. The number of people who seem to be anti-abortion and pro-circumcision are the ones who confuse me. All other combinations make sense. Pro-life and anti-circ is protecting a child life and limb from conception. That makes sense. Pro-choice and pro-circ is a parent's get the final say perspective, which also makes sense. But why would one be pro-circ and pro-life? Protect a child's life, but not limb, from conception? :confused:

 

 

I believe the "choice" is made before conception. It's no secret how women get pregnant. If one chooses to have s3x, one chooses to accept responsibility for the new life.

 

At the point of conception, the new life has its own DNA. At that point, we're not talking about the woman's s3xual organs. We're talking about a completely new person, not the uterus.

 

A woman has a choice to put the baby up for adoption or raise the child.

 

My confusion comes from the pro-choice/anti-circ group. It's no problem to abort a child, but don't dare circumcise him?:confused:

 

FWIW, I'm still undecided on the circ issue. When I was preg with ds, I saw a new mom at the pediatrician's office. Her ds had a terrible infection from a circ. It looked awful. I just couldn't justify circumcising ds after seeing that.

 

As a pp mentioned in another thread, sometimes we are adamantly pro-something to justify our actions. If other people do what I did, then my choice wasn't bad. Assuaging our guilt, maybe?

[Aggie]

Rape victims don't generally choose to have sex.

 

True. But all abortions aren't done on rape victims.

[YLVD]

Interesting, I'm one of the minority with my view! I'm pro-choice and do not oppose circumsicion

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

True. But all abortions aren't done on rape victims.

 

True but how would one legislate that? Would all rape/incest victims need to go before a judge for permission.

 

I know someone close to me who was a prosecutor for 20 years and they made it quite clear that rape is hard to prove:( Then there are currently some legislators who want to only allow forcible rape to be an exception for abortion in the sense that a woman has to resist:001_huh::001_huh: If someone has a weapon, resisting is not always an option:( The there are legislators who want to limit the availability of Plan B emergency contraception which IMHO would be ideal for all rape victims.

 

Also, IMHO I think there should be exceptions when the woman's life or health is at risk. Ideally pregnancy would be carried to at viability for a c-section but this is not always medically the best choice for the mom. IMHO a woman should not have to ruin her health or risk death to complete pregnancy.

 

Lastly, IMHO I think there should be exceptions for catastrophic problems with the babies such a the presence of anecephaly (unsure of the spelling but means a child with no brain:()

 

IMHO this grave decision should be between a woman and her doctor. Of course, I am not pro-abortion at all and agree that human life begins at conception. I am pro-choice and pro-life including cradle to grave. Obviously, there are way too many abortions which is appalling to me but how to you legislate this??? To me prevention is the best answer and yet many legislators want to limit access to birth control:( I am strongly in favor of birth control and Plan B emergency contraception even if there is a risk of a few days old embryo not making it.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Oh, and I do love men in kilts. DH wore one for our wedding:D

[YLVD]

Is now the time to say that my dh is Filipino and loves his Balut? I have to go in the other room when he eats it. :ack2:

 

I have several Filipino friends and while I will try virtually anything, nothing horrifies me more than Balut! :svengo::svengo:

[ocelotmom]

I'd like to see anything in place that would help those out who feel there is no other alternative.

That's how I feel, too. And most of what I do see seems aimed at teens and very young adults during their first pregnancy, not those who already have at least one existing kid that they have to take into consideration, and is relatively superficial. No, I don't want to attend your free parenting classes so that I can earn points to exchange for baby clothing and diapers. I want to be able to get through school and get a job (as a new graduate, in a very competitive field, while visibly pregnant. Yeah right.) so that I can support the kids I already have.

 

Also, "Just keep your legs closed" is rather more difficult advice within the context of marriage. Not all married couples are prepared to take on a baby at any given time, birth control fails, and I think most people would consider it improper to withhold TeA entirely unless both partners agreed.

 

(No, that baby wasn't aborted, but definitely NOT because of the pro-life people.)

Edited June 11, 2011 by ocelotmom

[YLVD]

I believe the "choice" is made before conception. It's no secret how women get pregnant. If one chooses to have s3x, one chooses to accept responsibility for the new life.

 

At the point of conception, the new life has its own DNA. At that point, we're not talking about the woman's s3xual organs. We're talking about a completely new person, not the uterus.

 

A woman has a choice to put the baby up for adoption or raise the child.

 

My confusion comes from the pro-choice/anti-circ group. It's no problem to abort a child, but don't dare circumcise him?:confused:

 

FWIW, I'm still undecided on the circ issue. When I was preg with ds, I saw a new mom at the pediatrician's office. Her ds had a terrible infection from a circ. It looked awful. I just couldn't justify circumcising ds after seeing that.

 

As a pp mentioned in another thread, sometimes we are adamantly pro-something to justify our actions. If other people do what I did, then my choice wasn't bad. Assuaging our guilt, maybe?

 

I see where you are going with this. However, many women do not make the choice to get pregnant, as others have said.

[twoforjoy]

I'm not in favor of abortion. I'd like to see anything in place that would help those out who feel there is no other alternative. But I still feel like there are some reasons that I wouldn't feel right telling someone they cannot choose it (rape, incest, life threatening health problems, etc).

 

Not to mention that, in many circumstances, it wouldn't work. When abortion is illegal, women have illegal abortions. Statistics seem to indicate that legality has little or no impact on abortion rates.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html

 

If the choices are women having unsanitary, back-alley abortions (or self-induced abortions) and women having legal, regulated abortions, I'd much prefer them to have legal, regulated ones. Those seem to be the choices.

[Aggie]

True but how would one legislate that? Would all rape/incest victims need to go before a judge for permission.

 

I know someone close to me who was a prosecutor for 20 years and they made it quite clear that rape is hard to prove:( Then there are currently some legislators who want to only allow forcible rape to be an exception for abortion in the sense that a woman has to resist:001_huh::001_huh: If someone has a weapon, resisting is not always an option:( The there are legislators who want to limit the availability of Plan B emergency contraception which IMHO would be ideal for all rape victims.

 

Also, IMHO I think there should be exceptions when the woman's life or health is at risk. Ideally pregnancy would be carried to at viability for a c-section but this is not always medically the best choice for the mom. IMHO a woman should not have to ruin her health or risk death to complete pregnancy.

 

Lastly, IMHO I think there should be exceptions for catastrophic problems with the babies such a the presence of anecephaly (unsure of the spelling but means a child with no brain:()

 

IMHO this grave decision should be between a woman and her doctor. Of course, I am not pro-abortion at all and agree that human life begins at conception. I am pro-choice and pro-life including cradle to grave. Obviously, there are way too many abortions which is appalling to me but how to you legislate this??? To me prevention is the best answer and yet many legislators want to limit access to birth control:( I am strongly in favor of birth control and Plan B emergency contraception even if there is a risk of a few days old embryo not making it.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Oh, and I do love men in kilts. DH wore one for our wedding:D

 

There is no easy answer. I agree that there are too many abortions for convenience and I wish we could stop those. For both the sake of the babies and the moms.

 

 

 

However...would you post a wedding picture?:001_smile:

[twoxcell]

Man I so did not want to bite on this one, but I can't help myself:crying:. Abortion is killing. Why not just make all killing safe and legal since people will find a way to do it anyways.:ack2: I'm sure plenty of people have very legitamate reasons to take someone elses life.

[Aquinas Academy]

Man I so did not want to bite on this one, but I can't help myself:crying:. Abortion is killing. Why not just make all killing safe and legal since people will find a way to do it anyways.:ack2: I'm sure plenty of people have very legitamate reasons to take someone elses life.

:iagree:Thank you for saying this.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

Man I so did not want to bite on this one, but I can't help myself:crying:. Abortion is killing. Why not just make all killing safe and legal since people will find a way to do it anyways.:ack2: I'm sure plenty of people have very legitamate reasons to take someone elses life.

 

:iagree:

[zookeeperof3]

Man I so did not want to bite on this one, but I can't help myself:crying:. Abortion is killing. Why not just make all killing safe and legal since people will find a way to do it anyways.:ack2: I'm sure plenty of people have very legitamate reasons to take someone elses life.

 

:iagree:Thank you for saying this.

:iagree:

[Tree House Academy]

Pot-stirring at its finest and we bought it hook-line-and sinker. Goodness!

[Carpe]

Pot-stirring at its finest and we bought it hook-line-and sinker. Goodness!

 

I disagree. Most of this thread is lard related.

[ocelotmom]

I disagree. Most of this thread is lard related.

 

...and lard-making involves pot-stirring. So there.

[tntgoodwin]

Pot-stirring at its finest and we bought it hook-line-and sinker. Goodness!

 

No one is forced to involve themselves in any particular thread.

[Carpe]

...and lard-making involves pot-stirring. So there.

 

*gasp* You're right! :svengo: How was I deceived?

[ocelotmom]

*gasp* You're right! :svengo: How was I deceived?

 

This is what happens when we rely on processed food! People forget the classical domestic arts! We must get back to our roots and render our own lard so that people do not forget the point of pot-stirring!

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't know anyone who considers themselves pro-abortion. That makes the question tricky to answer.

 

So should we just start with the recipes and/or kilt pictures now or do we have to wait until it falls apart first?

 

Might as well start.

[Carpe]

 

And a link to a recipe for Sugar skulls, prompted by the belt.

[ocelotmom]

I don't know anyone who considers themselves pro-abortion.

I do.

 

There are people who see abortion as the ideal option in certain situations (mother under a certain age, unable to financially support the child, more than x number of kids already, that sort of thing), either for themselves or others. I would consider those people pro-abortion, especially if they have the desire to limit other options, such as adoption (yes, I do know people like this.)

[nmoira]

 

This is what happens when we rely on processed food! People forget the classical domestic arts! We must get back to our roots and render our own lard so that people do not forget the point of pot-stirring!

Polenta, risotto...

[nmoira]

And I just whipped mascarpone for twenty minutes before I got stiff peaks. Or should that be in the spanking thread?

[Carrie12345]

I do.

 

There are people who see abortion as the ideal option in certain situations (mother under a certain age, unable to financially support the child, more than x number of kids already, that sort of thing), either for themselves or others. I would consider those people pro-abortion, especially if they have the desire to limit other options, such as adoption (yes, I do know people like this.)

 

I've never heard a single woman say "That was great. I hope I get to do it again soon!"

[ocelotmom]

I've never heard a single woman say "That was great. I hope I get to do it again soon!"

 

I'd imagine not, since, like most medical procedures, it isn't the most comfortable thing ever. Plus, it tends to be expensive.

[beaners]

I can't bring myself to post a picture.

 

It's a 17-day-old duck embryo boiled in the egg and eaten whole.

 

Highlight to read... if you dare. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I have a pair of ducks nesting right now. One of them cracked an egg yesterday that was about that far along. That was more than enough for me.

 

I always wonder how people decide that something should be eaten. Like what were people thinking the first time they saw a lobster and thought it was edible. Or this.

[Carpe]

I have a pair of ducks nesting right now. One of them cracked an egg yesterday that was about that far along. That was more than enough for me.

 

I always wonder how people decide that something should be eaten. Like what were people thinking the first time they saw a lobster and thought it was edible. Or this.

 

Some people will eat anything.

[Carpe]

Polenta, risotto...

 

I love risotto, but not only can't I make polenta, I don't even understand how it's supposed to work. Any pointers?

[texasmama]

I love risotto, but not only can't I make polenta, I don't even understand how it's supposed to work. Any pointers?

 

Just cook up some good, Southern style grits and call it a day.;)

[nmoira]

 

I love risotto, but not only can't I make polenta, I don't even understand how it's supposed to work. Any pointers?

Depends what you want to use it for. It makes a great side dish with cheese, or as a base for other dishes (use instead of pasta or rice). You can form it in loaves to use in layered casserole dishes or to cut in slices to fry (I like it fried and topped with maple syrup, though I appreciate that this is an affront to some polenta lovers).

[annandatje]

And I just whipped mascarpone for twenty minutes before I got stiff peaks. Or should that be in the spanking thread?

 

May I lick the beaters/whips?

[Carpe]

Is it? Good then. I officially give up on polenta.

[nmoira]

May I lick the beaters/whips?

:D Ahem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The kids beat you to it.

[nmoira]

 

Is it? Good then. I officially give up on polenta.

Buy it preformed at the grocery store if you just want to try frying it or using it in casseroles.

[JoyfulMama]

My husband is a butcher. I render my own beef lard. It would work fine with shortening though I imagine.

 

Have you ever used JUST lard, and no butter for the cookies?

[Carpe]

Have you ever used JUST lard, and no butter for the cookies?

 

I have not. I think they would spread too much because lard is softer. I'll be willing to give it a shot tonight but not for a couple hours, we haven't even had dinner yet.

[stripe]

Polenta is overrated.

 

I saw this as placenta.

[annandatje]

I saw this as placenta.

 

 

http://pregnancy.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=pregnancy&cdn=parenting&tm=34&gps=653_324_1916_848&f=00&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.gentlebirth.org/archives/etplcnt2.html

 

Placenta lasagne anyone?

[twoforjoy]

Man I so did not want to bite on this one, but I can't help myself:crying:. Abortion is killing. Why not just make all killing safe and legal since people will find a way to do it anyways.:ack2: I'm sure plenty of people have very legitamate reasons to take someone elses life.

 

If it turned out that our laws against murder 1) did nothing to reduce the murder rate and 2) made it far, far more likely that the person attempting/perpetrating the murder was going to wind up dead (two deaths, rather than one), and 3) allowed the wealthy to get away with murder as often as they wanted while the poor and vulnerable were the ones who were dying, I'd honestly believe that it might indeed be time to rethink our laws against murder and whether or not they were actually helping anything.

 

And, certainly laws against abortion are significantly different than laws against murder. Women with more resources have always been able to obtain safe, clandestine abortions, either by travelling to a place where they are legal or finding a "respectable" doctor who was willing to perform a D&C for "medical reasons." It's women with fewer resources who are forced into back alley clinics or self-induced abortions, and end up dead or permanently injured. Laws against abortion disproportionately affect the women who are already the most vulnerable.

 

When there are effective ways to reduce the abortion rate that do not disproportionately harm poor women (and in fact help them), and when laws against abortion do little or nothing to reduce the abortion rate, if the real concern is preserving life, then I think we need to stop thinking legislatively and instead focusing on reducing need and providing alternatives.

Edited June 12, 2011 by twoforjoy