How important are well-child visits for babies?

[Hannah C.]

I'm a pediatrician so admittedly biased. I think it's very important. At the very least, it will be more difficult to find someone to see when your kids are sick if they don't already have a regular doctor. There are urgent cares and ERs but in my experience they tend to either give less than ideal care for kids (urgent cares) or be expensive and require lengthy waits (ERs).

 

I also have posted on this multiple times before so those who've seen it before can forgive me but there are many things we can find on a well check. I think people see it as not much being done and if the child is healthy that's what it will look like, but it's not uncommon for us to find things in a baby or child that were not suspected by a parent. A partial list of things I've diagnosed in kids at check-ups: cataracts, vision problems (commonly), polycystic ovarian disease, scoliosis (commonly), autism, developmental delay, craniosynostosis (potentially dangerous issue where the bones in the skull fuse together prematurely), diabetes, hypertension, kidney disease, thyroid disease, growth problems, anorexia, infantile spasms (very serious seizure disorder in babies), heart murmurs of various etiologies. In all those situations the parent was NOT concerned and had not noticed anything wrong. Sometimes this was because we made the diagnosis early, sometimes it's because they had just gotten used to the problem and didn't realize it was a problem. I work in an area with well-educated parents. If anything most of my parents are too worried about things in their kids. I think of myself as a good doctor but not particularly unusual or great. I'm sure all my partners have similar lists. All that to say, I do think well checks are important.

 

I do sympathize with the vaccination issue. Pediatricians are struggling with this issue as we strive to best serve all our patients. We do want to respect parents decisions, but at the same time we also want to protect the most fragile in our practice (infants who can't be vaccinated, children on immunosuppressive therapies, those who can't be vaccinated). For us it would be a disaster if an infant contracted pertussis in our waiting room and died. All over the country we are seeing outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases, the most common being measles and pertussis.

 

Every pediatric practice is figuring out for themselves how to handle this. Until recently, we accepted all patients, regardless of their decisions about vaccines. We had them sign a waiver and made it clear that we strongly recommended the standard schedule but we would still see them. Recently, due to the concerns I mentioned above we have decided to ask all our patients to vaccinate and follow a "reasonable schedule". We are intentionally keeping it vague so that we can work with patients individually to figure out what their concerns are. Obviously, they have the choice to decide this doesn't work for them and find another doctor although we hope no one does that.

 

I hope you can find someone in your area who is willing to see your kids and work with you to find a vaccine schedule you are comfortable with.

 

Haven't finished reading all the replies yet - I just wanted to say thank you to Alice, this post was incredibly helpful. :)

[elizabeth]

You are being extremely harsh and critical. I have known or met 3 people in the last year or 2 who can trace major changes in their kids after having been vaccinated. They have been diagnosed with Autism. I grew up in church with a family that has an autistic son. I do know how hard things are for him. I have watched him grow up. I selectively vaccinate and do so on a slow schedule. I am a very conservative Christian and I do look at the risks of the vaccines versus the disease for my child.

 

A parent in this country still has the right to make medical decisions for their children. Do you really want to take that away?

 

Correlation is not causation. It appears to be in this case but the reality is that right when kids should become verbal and react emotionally to people is when the Vax is given. These two events though close in time are not indicative in and of themselves that A vax caused autism. While tragic and challenging (I do SSD so I have lots of clients with this) it is totally without proof to claim the Vax caused this syndrome.

[Halcyon]

This argument is incredibly insulting because it is saying I should put MY child at risk just in case something could possibly happen to another child.

 

 

I am not vehemently pro or anti-vaccine. Nonetheless, I do think that the "risk", if such a risk even exists, of your child getting ill from a vaccine is far less that the risk an immunosuppressed child faces if he or she contracts pertussis or any other contagious illness. So yes, I think Elizabeth is probably correct in saying your position is somewhat self-centered.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Halcyon

[Embassy]

Correlation is not causation.

 

A correlation and an unknown cause are reason enough for some parents to be hesitant to vaccinate.

[Carrie12345]

Ew. After the first page, I'm not going to bother reading the rest, but I'll add my take in case it might help the OP or anyone else in their decision making.

 

My almost-6mo hasn't been to the regular pediatrician in a few months, and the rest of my kids do not get their physicals on an annual schedule. Dh and I are perfectly comfortable and well-experienced with the "normal" stuff, and even some not-so-normal stuff.

 

That said, we do have a relationship with our regular pediatric practice, and the baby does see a pediatric GI on a regular basis. 2 of my kids just went to the ped this week, 1 for a rash and 1 for a UTI. Because there are 5 kids, we are in that office at least a few times a year for *something or other. They know us well.

 

We're also in the process of searching for a practice that better respects our parental choices. In the meantime, I would not be comfortable being in complete limbo. Kids get sick. Kids have issues. I do think it's important to "know someone" in advance of those events.

 

It's also a good idea to have accurate height/weight/head circ. stats. Because we were snowed in for much of ds's 2nd month, we did not recognize that his growth had completely stopped. We believed he felt heavier, looked a bit plumper, and his clothes appeared to be getting snug. His diaper output was more than adequate, and his feeding schedule seemed typical. We did eventually learn that our minds had been playing tricks on us, and that was pretty devastating.

 

So, is it a huge deal if you don't follow the standard check up schedule? Probably not.

But I wouldn't recommend blowing it off completely, especially for a first-time mom.

[Mommy22alyns]

Personally, I would never forego well-child visits for a baby. But that's just me. Now that the girls are older and past the need for yearly visits, I don't worry so much. They can tell me if something is wrong. But it's harder with babies.

[TracieT]

It is not a moral issue to tell me to risk my child's very life for herd immunity? I'm at a loss how you can't see the double standard here.

 

Autism didn't play into my decision at all. I was actually more concerned with autoimmune disorders. And just because there isn't a specific study out there proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that a vaccine has caused something specific doesn't mean they are safe. Why else do they have you sign a waiver to have your child vaccinated?

I weighed the risks of the vaccines against the risks of each individual disease and came to the conclusion that was best for my children, their health and their futures. I believe some of the issues my children have experienced are related, in part, to the vaccinations they did receive. It doesn't bother me a bit if someone disagrees, but I will not do something that goes against my maternal instinct just to appease the masses.

[Halcyon]

 

A parent in this country still has the right to make medical decisions for their children. Do you really want to take that away?

 

 

In cases like this, abso-freakin'-lutely. I don't think a parent's right is absolute, and I think when one family's decision (such as to not vax) affects the health of another family's child (one who is immunosuppressed, for example), the situation becomes much more complicated.

 

 

At this moment in time, there is a measles outbreak in this country. If my child was sick and likely to contract this highly contagious disease, I don't think I would think that the "parent's choice" to not vax trumped my child's right to live.

[TracieT]

I am not vehemently pro or anti-vaccine. Nonetheless, I do think that the "risk", if such a risk even exists, of your child getting ill from a vaccine is far less that the risk an immunosuppressed child faces if he or she contracts pertussis or any other contagious illness. So yes, I think Elizabeth is probably correct in saying your position is somewhat self-centered.

 

Isn't there a lot of self-centerdness in parenting?! The majority of people out there find homeschooling to be quite self-centered. If choosing what is best for MY child is considered to be self-centered, I will proudly wear that label. I don't agree with it, but the rest of the world can look at it that way and it will not change my decision.

 

I only find it eye roll worthy to bring my faith into it, however. I have no doubt the Holy Spirit would be actively convicting me if not vaccinating my children were "anti-Christian."

[Sophia]

[quote=Hannah C.;2813898

Will I be in trouble trying to get her care when she actually is sick if she doesn't go see a doctor regularly? How can I find info on doctors?

 

Bah. This is so complicated. :(

 

The best way to find a practice you can work with is by word of mouth.

When I moved to our present home, I asked just about every mom I met for a pediatrician recommendation.

One office kept popping up that sounded like what I was looking for, and we have been with them for about 8 years.

I do not do well visits, and the office readily sees them when they are ill.

[Halcyon]

I will not do something that goes against my maternal instinct just to appease the masses.

 

Maternal instinct won't count for much when someone's child is dying from measles. It's not just "appeasing the masses" when you can prevent this.

[Hannah C.]

Wow..I didn't mean to start controversy. Whoops. Thanks to everyone for all the replies.

 

I do want to do well-child visits. I was "ranting" a bit in the original post, as I was feeling quite discouraged that I have to do the whole doctor search - and of course, finding a good doctor means postponing the well-child visit.

 

About vaccines, I really want to do research on it before doing anything - and I may make decisions on a vaccine-by-vaccine basis, which is why I'm not necessarily okay with just following the Dr. Sears schedule. I am *NOT* pro- or anti-vaccine at this point, just..wary, I suppose. I really want to make informed decisions, not just go by what someone says - and this goes for pretty much everything in my life, too. :)

 

I've had whooping cough twice, and it's one of the diseases I'm more concerned about.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Hannah C.

[Halcyon]

Isn't there a lot of self-centerdness in parenting?!

 

In some ways, perhaps. But I think our job as parents is also to do what's right for people other than ourselves, and to teach our children the same. As for whether God would be telling you if you were making an error in not vaxing? On that, I cannot comment.

[Elohcin]

Have you looked into a family physician? Ours and others I have encountered tend to be more flexible about vaccinations and visits, etc..

I'll agree with others who have posted, word of mouth is the best way to find one.

[Guest]

I am merely pointing out it is not a morally neutral choice in that it does have effects on the health of unknown persons. I guess that implying selfishness as not a desirable virtue is another taboo. Absent an allergy there is no scientifically verified risk. However, that is not the issue. The study about an alleged tie to MMR vax and autism was totally false and its author said so. To suggest that your choices are not morally neutral is not insulting in the least and I cannot see how it would be insulting. The fact that it feels like hypocrisy to claim to believe X and live or conduct oneself in accord with something in opposition to X at tthe same time, might give one pause . Maybe there is merit to my proposal that there are moral choices being made and there are consequences.

 

All of our children have had all their vaccinations, and I do think people should vaccinate, but you make it sound as if there is no risk. Have you read the papers (about each vaccine) that you sign?

[3peasinWa]

To protect me legally & to have an "established ped" - I would go to most well check visits. However, the only reason the well check visits are scheduled the way they are is for vaccination purposes. I don't vax, so after 6 months, I only went 1x a year...

[Guest]

Listen to Alice!

 

To those who say that their pediatricians were useless, well, you probably just didn't have a very good one. I had one that laughed at me and told me my dd was not allergic to milk. I took dd to another pediatrician in the same practice. He said he believed dd definitely had allergies, and sent her to an allergist (where we found out she had a ton, and they were life-threatening). Went back to the first one when ds was sick and she said he was fine; that I was just too worried. We went back to the colleague the next day, he looked at my son, and told me he had pneumonia. We switched to this wonderful doctor and never looked back. We moved out of state a few years later, and I still miss that doctor! I finally found another keeper here (after several switches). Just keep looking until you find one you like, but definitely take your dc in the meantime.

[TracieT]

I was thinking about the Christian aspect. I have also been told that it is wrong for me, as a Christian, to homeschool my children because my kids need to be a light amongst the children in the public school system, otherwise they may never hear about Christ. This is another "sacrificing my child" scenario I don't agree with and I don't believe it is Biblically sound. I truly, honestly am incapable of understanding how sacrificing my child is what God wants me to do.

[LittleIzumi]

Listen to Alice!

 

To those who say that their pediatricians were useless, well, you probably just didn't have a very good one. I had one that laughed at me and told me my dd was not allergic to milk. I took dd to another pediatrician in the same practice. He said he believed dd definitely had allergies, and sent her to an allergist (where we found out she had a ton, and they were life-threatening). Went back to the first one when ds was sick and she said he was fine; that I was just too worried. We went back to the colleague the next day, he looked at my son, and told me he had pneumonia. We switched to this wonderful doctor and never looked back. We moved out of state a few years later, and I still miss that doctor! I finally found another keeper here (after several switches). Just keep looking until you find one you like, but definitely take your dc in the meantime.

 

True dat. I am at an okay pedi right now (already posted), but the pedi I had before that also told me to give my dd something she's allergic to. I checked & double-checked, & reminded the nurse afterwards that dd had already been to the ER for this allergy, & they still wanted me to give it to her. They also didn't even return my call the next workday. If I followed his advice we'd be back in the hospital. We never saw him again. We had a family doc who rocked but he was older & he died.... :( so we are on okay pedi now.

[athena1277]

Here's my 2 cents. When dd was at her 4yo check-up, the doctor checked her ears and noticed a perforation in her eardrum. He was concerned and sent us to see an ENT. The ENT monitored it for a year and it never healed on it's own. Dd had to have surgery to repair it. Thankfully it was caught and taken care of before it affected dd's hearing. I would never have known about this had we not gone for a well-visit. I think it's even more important for babies who can't tell you when something hurts and is developing so very quickly. Vax or not, go for a check-up.

[Guest]

I was thinking about the Christian aspect. I have also been told that it is wrong for me, as a Christian, to homeschool my children because my kids need to be a light amongst the children in the public school system, otherwise they may never hear about Christ. This is another "sacrificing my child" scenario I don't agree with and I don't believe it is Biblically sound. I truly, honestly am incapable of understanding how sacrificing my child is what God wants me to do.

 

 

I do think it is horrible when people don't vaccinate and someone else suffers for it, but I thought it could have been said in a better way. I see the point in what she said, but the way it was said was so harsh. I do think we need to think about/protect others, but if a certain child is at risk from vaccines, that needs to be taken into account too. The whole vaccination debate is tricky, isn't it?

[Guest]

True dat. I am at an okay pedi right now (already posted), but the pedi I had before that also told me to give my dd something she's allergic to. I checked & double-checked, & reminded the nurse afterwards that dd had already been to the ER for this allergy, & they still wanted me to give it to her. They also didn't even return my call the next workday. If I followed his advice we'd be back in the hospital. We never saw him again. We had a family doc who rocked but he was older & he died.... :( so we are on okay pedi now.

 

Perfect example. I'm glad you did not listen to that doctor. I always listen to my instincts (not fears). That is why I went for the second opinion in the scenarios I described. I just knew. The nice thing is that I found a pediatrician who knew what he was doing. With the pneumonia, he caught it... I knew something was wrong; I just didn't know what. That's the perfect doctor/patient relationship.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Jinnah

[TracieT]

I do think it is horrible when people don't vaccinate and someone else suffers for it, but I thought it could have been said in a better way. I see the point in what she said, but the way it was said was so harsh. I do think we need to think about/protect others, but if a certain child is at risk from vaccines, that needs to be taken into account too. The whole vaccination debate is tricky, isn't it?

 

It absolutely is tricky. I am not denying that if my child has a contagious disease he could pass it onto someone with a compromised immune system. That's why we don't visit my grandma if they boys have been sick. If I had contact with a person whose child was unable to be vaccinated or had an immune issue, I'd be sure to tell them my children haven't been vaxxed past aged 2. I have no problem taking precautions not to infect others, only with putting my child's life at risk for a just in case.

[SweetBean]

I agree that not all pediatricians are created equally. If your ped. isn't working out, find a new one, but do go for those check-ups.

[TracieT]

And really, my kids probably aren't the issue. They are most likely immune to everything because all they haven't had are their boosters at age 5, which those are just in case the previous rounds didn't give immunity. I'm probably way more of a risk to the public because I haven't received any vaccinations since I was a young child. I'm way more likely to get something than my kids.

[Barb_]

I have 7 children and I've been a parent for 21 years in 5 states. Our insurance (and therefore our doctors) have changed even more than our moves. We've seen so many pediatricians I've lost count. Most of them haven driven me nuts. Most have been philosophical equivalent of public schools. They were often bossy and controlling and wanted to treat parents like children. They were inflexible. Often they were superficial, rushed, hassled, didn't like answering questions, didn't like to explain themselves and didn't have a lot of patience. Now, I'm sure that some of this is occupational hazard. Anyone who spends all day around children can develop unfortunate ways of interacting with them and their parents (hello at-home moms! LOL), but why put yourself in the line of fire if you don't have to?

 

I prefer my family practice. They don't try to tell me how to parent and there aren't as many nasty, germy oozing toddlers in the waiting room :D We used to always get sick right after well child visits. You may have to make a few phone calls before you find a group who is comfortable seeing children, but it's worth it. Pediatricians are better if you are a new mom who needs a lot of reassurance and hand-holding, but that can become tiresome once you begin to find your self-confidence.

 

Good luck finding someone you can work with!

 

Barb

[Ellesmere]

[

[Robin's Song]

In our last state we had a civilian doctor that was absolutely WONDERFUL. He was pro-vax but he respected parents' rights to make the decision and set the schedule and actually enjoyed talking through it with us.

 

The kids are now seen by a military service center (I think they are contracted civilians for the most part, not sure). Anyways, we HAVE to vax on their schedule. Period. They will not allow you to do one but opt out of another shot on the same day, no spreading them out...NOTHING. I was told that it was because it would be a scheduling nightmare and would necessitate too many extra visits. I was told that I would have to take my child to the local health department (ick) if I wanted to selectively vax.

 

I missed a well baby visit or two because of things that came up at the last minute and they insisted on catching him up at his last visit. So.many.shots. Everything in me screamed NO. They were really reassuring--'I've worked here for 5 years and I've never seen anyone who had a problem. CDC says we can load em up! They just want to protect your child.'

 

The last lady finally gave me so much crap that I said "NO, they aren't primarily concerned with my child's health. This is socialized medicine (military) and it is about $$$$". :glare:Truly, it was an extraordinary number of vaccinations on the same day. They could have kept him on a delayed schedule! I'm skipping the next appt. I refuse to be strongarmed into a decision that I am not comfortable with. I have a friend who is pro-vax but wants to space it out and she isn't getting her baby vaccinated at all because of it. It's really frustrating.

 

I love doctors in general, though :) They diagnosed ds with a testicle that hadn't descended. It ended up being no big deal because it came down when he turned 1, but my nephew had the same issue and his never descended. He had to have it surgically removed because of cancer risks later in life.

 

I hope you find a ped who will work with you! It might be a pain, but at least your have options!

[Joanne]

OT: What happened to the boy? Is he okay now?

 

He has a permanent shunt, the surgery was unable to remove all of the main/largest tumor. His level of functioning is severely reduced developmentally. He has just finished radiation and is starting chemo.

 

Here is the type of brain cancer.

 

The family practically lives at MD Anderson and Ronald McDonald house.

[celticmom]

 

Needless to say, I haven't found any of the peds in my area to be worth the bother. There is NO "relationship" built. They don't remember me or my children from time to time. There's been no benefit to developing some relationship. They are barely aware of us outside of a visit that consists of "Hi, how are you? Check mark, take a temp, weigh...see you later" Around here it's a waste of time, money and whatever cold or such someone ends up catching from the waiting room.

 

I wish I could have some of the experiences you all seem to have had. We are nothing but a chart number around here. I stay informed about milestones and measurements and use a general doctor whenever there is the rare illness.

 

That's MY experience. My answer would be "no, they aren't worth it". :)

:iagree:

[Joanne]

We know someone who lost a child after being vaccinated. It caused seizures and brain swelling which led to complications and the baby died.

 

There are too many stories like this. Parents have the right to choose, and to not put their child at risk just because it might affect another.

 

They do; I respect that right (and my younger 2 were not vaccinated until much later).

 

However, it is bad logic. Kids die on BOTH sides of the vaccine choice. Period. Lives are affected on BOTH sides of that choice. I personally find the agree to the schedule, even suggested ones AND the anti vaccine no matter what ones to be equally under-informed.

 

Vaccines are complicated, and there is no perfect, easy answer. I don't believe in any extreme view that holds they are all bunk OR any view that automatically accepts current protocol.

[Aelwydd]

And really, my kids probably aren't the issue. They are most likely immune to everything because all they haven't had are their boosters at age 5, which those are just in case the previous rounds didn't give immunity. I'm probably way more of a risk to the public because I haven't received any vaccinations since I was a young child. I'm way more likely to get something than my kids.

 

Honestly, I think that while your children pose a risk to their vaccinated peers if there is an outbreak, the risk is reduced since your kids are hs'ed. Also, if your kids were exposed to an outbreak like measles, or pertussis, I would worried about your kids as well as the immuno-compromised. Mumps, for example, carries the risk of sterility in approximately 10% of male children in an infected population. So, one out of 10 boys who catches it is permanently rendered sterile.

 

I understand elizabeth's reasoning when she cites non-vaxxers as self-centered. However, the other side of the argument is that non-vaxxers are not siphoning all risk over to their neighbors. Choosing to not vac your children eliminates the relatively remote risks of a reaction or side effect from the vaccine; it does not remove the risk of infection from the disease, itself. And if your child is infected by one of the more serious illnesses, there is a much higher risk of permanent disability, injury, and death, than with vaccines.

[3peasinWa]

In our last state we had a civilian doctor that was absolutely WONDERFUL. He was pro-vax but he respected parents' rights to make the decision and set the schedule and actually enjoyed talking through it with us.

 

The kids are now seen by a military service center (I think they are contracted civilians for the most part' date=' not sure). Anyways, we HAVE to vax on their schedule. Period. They will not allow you to do one but opt out of another shot on the same day, no spreading them out...NOTHING. I was told that it was because it would be a scheduling nightmare and would necessitate too many extra visits. I was told that I would have to take my child to the local health department (ick) if I wanted to selectively vax.

 

I missed a well baby visit or two because of things that came up at the last minute and they insisted on catching him up at his last visit. So.many.shots. Everything in me screamed NO. They were really reassuring--'I've worked here for 5 years and I've never seen anyone who had a problem. CDC says we can load em up! They just want to protect your child.'

 

The last lady finally gave me so much crap that I said "NO, they aren't primarily concerned with my child's health. This is socialized medicine (military) and it is about $$$$". :glare:Truly, it was an extraordinary number of vaccinations on the same day. They could have kept him on a delayed schedule! I'm skipping the next appt. I refuse to be strongarmed into a decision that I am not comfortable with. I have a friend who is pro-vax but wants to space it out and she isn't getting her baby vaccinated at all because of it. It's really frustrating.

 

I love doctors in general, though :) They diagnosed ds with a testicle that hadn't descended. It ended up being no big deal because it came down when he turned 1, but my nephew had the same issue and his never descended. He had to have it surgically removed because of cancer risks later in life.

 

I hope you find a ped who will work with you! It might be a pain, but at least your have options![/quote']

 

what state are you in? My son is seen in the Ped military clinic & we absolutely can selective/delay/or non-vax. Never had a problem w/the exception of being questioned on it...but no hassles.

[Aelwydd]

 

The last lady finally gave me so much crap that I said "NO' date=' they aren't primarily concerned with my child's health. This is socialized medicine (military) and it is about $$$$". :glare:[/quote']

 

Not to start another debate, but it's not about socialized medicine. We had private insurance all through ds' well-baby check-ups, and they pushed vaccines no matter who or what was paying. Private insurance typically pays out more for treatments and procedures anyway, so if anything, they're even more motivated to vax.

 

Also, our private insurance constantly sent us "reminders" and "helpful tips" about vaxxing, because from their perspective, better to pay for a shot now, than a hospital admission for measles later. It's all about the $$$ no matter if it's public or private.

[3peasinWa]

Not to start another debate, but it's not about socialized medicine. We had private insurance all through ds' well-baby check-ups, and they pushed vaccines no matter who or what was paying. Private insurance typically pays out more for treatments and procedures anyway, so if anything, they're even more motivated to vax.

 

Also, our private insurance constantly sent us "reminders" and "helpful tips" about vaxxing, because from their perspective, better to pay for a shot now, than a hospital admission for measles later. It's all about the $$$ no matter if it's public or private.

 

Right & really military health benefits are not socialized medicine. I also have the right to go out in town to an ARNP if I want. I'm not saying it's perfect , but I'm thankful to have full benefits & the ability to fight for my rights. But one must know what their rights are.

[TracieT]

Honestly, I think that while your children pose a risk to their vaccinated peers if there is an outbreak, the risk is reduced since your kids are hs'ed. Also, if your kids were exposed to an outbreak like measles, or pertussis, I would worried about your kids as well as the immuno-compromised. Mumps, for example, carries the risk of sterility in approximately 10% of male children in an infected population. So, one out of 10 boys who catches it is permanently rendered sterile.

 

I understand elizabeth's reasoning when she cites non-vaxxers as self-centered. However, the other side of the argument is that non-vaxxers are not siphoning all risk over to their neighbors. Choosing to not vac your children eliminates the relatively remote risks of a reaction or side effect from the vaccine; it does not remove the risk of infection from the disease, itself. And if your child is infected by one of the more serious illnesses, there is a much higher risk of permanent disability, injury, and death, than with vaccines.

 

That is not what I found in my research. I found (from neutral sources) that the risk to my children from these diseases are less than the risk from vaccines.

 

I realize the focus is always on immediate vaccine reactions. I am more concerned with long term affects.

[Aelwydd]

That is not what I found in my research. I found (from neutral sources) that the risk to my children from these diseases are less than the risk from vaccines.

 

I realize the focus is always on immediate vaccine reactions. I am more concerned with long term affects.

 

Do you mind sharing your sources? My field is public health, so I'm always looking to collect more studies on topics like this.

[Ellesmere]

Also, if your kids were exposed to an outbreak like measles, or pertussis, I would worried about your kids as well as the immuno-compromised.

I bolded the part that really got to me. When our first was not vaccinated, we only were eliminating risk of vaccine complications. When she was exposed to an illness, she was at risk and so was one of my family members that has an impaired immune system.

 

We have to weigh risk/benefit. Nothing that we do is risk-free. The possible negative long-term effects of vaccines compared to the immediate results of these illnesses was also a factor in our decision to ultimately vaccinate. Our second was on a delayed, doctor-approved schedule and there are some shots that she will never get.

[TracieT]

Do you mind sharing your sources? My field is public health, so I'm always looking to collect more studies on topics like this.

 

Oh gosh....this was a year to two years ago that I did all my research. Internet research. I know I used the CDC website and things like that. I wouldn't have all those sources any more. I know the one disease that really scared me was diphtheria and that's the one I still don't really understand. There were only like 8 cases in the past 10 years in the U.S. (something like that), so that reassured me. What I don't understand is how the vaccine can give you immunity, but getting the disease doesn't. You can get diphtheria repeatedly. Can you explain that to me because I've never understood that!

[Peela]

Just so you know (although maybe someone else mentioned it- I did not read the whole thread)- here in Australia we don't go to paediatricians unless referred for specific issues from our MD.

A nurse does Well Baby visits. They weigh, check for various things.

 

I went to a couple of visits for both my kids. Then I stopped. The paper trail I left was null and void when the doctor's office converted to computer files- all the paper files were stored somewhere else and inaccessible. No big deal.

 

I think it depends a lot on whether you are a grounded, common sense person who has a basic idea of what something going wrong might look like. There are signs and symptoms for everything. Many people are so idealistic about vaccines and child rearing ideas, that they are not really grounded in common sense at the same time (and the same could be said of many of those who have stong views either way). Trust your mother instinct, read a lot about baby milestones and growth patterns- educate yourself well- then work with a doctor as needed. Use them- don't give your power up to them. They are useful, but as servants, not masters. They take their own power way too seriously and that is too disempowering for mothers, I feel. Empower yourself, then find what you need.

[Parrothead]

OP - I understand the frustration of having to find a new doctor. Dh's job moves us every 2-3 years. We've been through countless doctors - pedis, gyn, eye, dentist, family. It is a lot of work, and I can understand your frustration.

 

My only suggestion would be to just decide on a day and start making phone calls. If you can't find a pedi, you may want to try a family practitioner. There were a couple places we lived that had no pedi within 100 miles. Dd went through the removal of her tonsils (and all the visits prior to the surgeon) with the most wonderful D.O.

 

I'm not even going to enter the vax debate.

(Yes, I am a coward.)

[Aelwydd]

I bolded the part that really got to me. When our first was not vaccinated, we only were eliminating risk of vaccine complications. When she was exposed to an illness, she was at risk and so was one of my family members that has an impaired immune system.

 

We have to weigh risk/benefit. Nothing that we do is risk-free. The possible negative long-term effects of vaccines compared to the immediate results of these illnesses was also a factor in our decision to ultimately vaccinate. Our second was on a delayed, doctor-approved schedule and there are some shots that she will never get.

 

It's true; that's why I don't take a hard-line position on this, even though from a public health perspective, immunizations help control and reduce infectious outbreak. I delayed several of ds' vaccines, and I'm still not completely comfortable with a few that he's had.

 

The chickenpox vaccine, IMO, is one of the worst excuses ever for Big Pharma to make money. My son's generation will now enter adulthood, not with naturally, active acquired immunity (the best kind), but with a waning active artificially acquired immunity, right when the disease poses the worst risk if infection sets in. If I had a dd, I'd be especially concerned, because even if she's had the chickenpox, if she is around hordes of other young adults all getting sick with the disease, and she's pregnant and her own immunity is compromised, guess what? That's a BAD SCENARIO.

 

Anyway, point being that I think there are "good vaccines," there are "less helpful" vaccines, and then there are what I call "corporate scams contributing to a national health crisis."

 

Parents have to be willing to research and be discerning, because the risk is never a sum-zero game (i.e., all risk assumed by one party, no risk for another) you know?

Edited June 10, 2011 by Aelwydd

[Aelwydd]

Oh gosh....this was a year to two years ago that I did all my research. Internet research. I know I used the CDC website and things like that. I wouldn't have all those sources any more. I know the one disease that really scared me was diphtheria and that's the one I still don't really understand. There were only like 8 cases in the past 10 years in the U.S. (something like that), so that reassured me. What I don't understand is how the vaccine can give you immunity, but getting the disease doesn't. You can get diphtheria repeatedly. Can you explain that to me because I've never understood that!

 

That's ok, I was just asking because I have several huge files where I've got all these downloaded studies (and someday I'm going to have to actually organize them), so I'm always looking to add to my collection. I collect abstracts and studies on all kinds of health topics, the way some people collect antiques. :tongue_smilie:

 

If you find them, please let me know! (You can stop laughing at my geekiness now.)

 

 

Oh, and to answer your question, neither gives you 100% protection. Naturally fighting it off (wild caught, as they say) tends to give you much better protection against re-infection, because the response mounted by the immune system is often more aggressive, and certain immune cells in the body "remember" it longer. If that makes sense.

 

Immunizations induce in the body a similar response, but it's usually muted because the pathogens are dead or attenuated (meaning they cannot reproduce, and therefore reach infectious levels). That's why many vaxes require a "booster" to help remind the immune system to keep a response ready in case it encounters a live pathogen.

 

If the immune system is weakened or compromised (due to stress, other illness, poor nutrition, etc.), and cannot quickly mount an aggressive enough "smack-down" for want of a better word, the pathogen can multiply and become numerous enough to cause "infection," where the body has to seriously modulate its metabolism and so forth, to kill the pathogen off or suppress it (in the case of viruses).

 

ETA: I forgot to include a link about diptheria and its risks, and how soon immunizations tend to wear off. It's a nasty illness for sure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002575/

Edited June 10, 2011 by Aelwydd

[QueenCat]

Correlation is not causation. It appears to be in this case but the reality is that right when kids should become verbal and react emotionally to people is when the Vax is given. These two events though close in time are not indicative in and of themselves that A vax caused autism. While tragic and challenging (I do SSD so I have lots of clients with this) it is totally without proof to claim the Vax caused this syndrome.

 

 

:iagree:Pretty accurate assessment. What is interesting in our family is that our older child does not have autism and was exposed to the supposed thimersol people tried to connect with autism and vaccines. Younger son had the vaccines WITHOUT the thimersol and has mild autism. If vaccines were the cause, the opposite child in my home would have autism. Overwhelmingly, reliable autism experts believe vaccines and autism are not related.

Edited June 10, 2011 by CathieC
trying to not be offensive

[HS Mom in NC]

It's useful to find a ped that respects your rights as a parent to vaccinate by whatever schedule you choose or if you choose not to vaccinate at all.

 

Ask homebirth midwives, free-standing birth center midwives, LLL Leaders (NOT at a meeting-ask them well before or after a meeting out of ear shot of others if they can tell you the name of anyone who might know of a ped like that) call naturopaths or chiropractors.

 

Even peds that completely respect your right to choose with no hassles at all may ask you to sign a piece of paper that says they have informed you of the risk of not vaccinating and you understood what they said. (Remember, for those choosing to vaccinate, they have to sign a piece of paper stating that they understand there is a risk of vaccinating.) Decide how you would handle that if it happens so you don't feel pressure one way or the other without having thought about it before-hand.

 

Anyone trying to convince you there is no risk to vaccinating and anyone trying to convince you there is no risk to not vaccinating should not be taken seriously.

[QueenCat]

The best way to find a practice you can work with is by word of mouth.

When I moved to our present home, I asked just about every mom I met for a pediatrician recommendation.

One office kept popping up that sounded like what I was looking for, and we have been with them for about 8 years.

I do not do well visits, and the office readily sees them when they are ill.

 

 

Loved and miss our pediatrician in your town.

[chiguirre]

When we moved to the US, I called around and asked about vaccination policies in order to choose a pediatrician. I didn't have any trouble finding one who didn't oppose not continuing my sons' vaccinations and delaying dd's till she was four. I do think that it's different when you have 2 kids on the spectrum and have the confidence to stand your ground. I had the advantage of having been advised by our developmental pediatrician, regular pediatrician and neonatologist to not vaccinate again (of course, those weren't American doctors, so they could use their professional judgement instead of following guidelines for fear of lawsuits).

 

It's not easy to be a first time parent. You don't know if your children will be part of the vast majority that don't have any adverse reaction to vaccines. You don't know if they'll get the measles and develop encephalitis. You just have to make your choice and take your chances.

[HS Mom in NC]

My husband and I brainstormed these questions as we looked into the issue. Maybe it will be useful to someone else.

 

 

 

Disease:

What is the actual likelihood of contracting the disease? How is the disease contracted? What is the spectrum of symptoms of the disease? What symptoms are most common? Most rare? How likely are permanent or fatal complications of the disease within the context of modern sanitary practices and good overall health and nutrition? What is the history of the disease and its cycles? How long will naturally acquired immunity to the disease last? Does a natural acquired immunity to the disease confer additional benefits over a vaccine simulated immunity? What treatment options are available to ameliorate the diseases symptoms? Would having the disease mean being quarantined from a specific segment of the population? How long does such a quarantine last? Are the disease and its consequences acceptable to myself, my family, and my social network? Can I accept the social stigma of the disease? Am I comfortable with the fact that my unvaccinated child will likely contract some of the diseases for which vaccines exist, and at least some people will say it was because I did not vaccinate my child?

 

 

The Vaccine:

 

 

How effective is the vaccine? Do some people still catch the disease in spite of or because of being vaccinated? How often do those two occur? What is the spectrum of adverse reaction to the vaccine? How likely are permanent or fatal complications of the vaccine reactions in the context of modern sanitary practice and good overall health and nutrition? What is the probability that other vaccine reactions exist and have yet to be quantified? When is the best time to vaccinate? Are there advantages to delaying vaccinating? What are the contents of the vaccine? Are the methods used to manufacture and test the vaccine acceptable to me? Have I read and understood the release form/patient information sheet before I signed it? Have I read the manufacturer's package insert/patient information sheet? Do I have a copy of the doctor's legal records listing the vaccine manufacturer's name and lot number? Can I recognize a vaccine reaction? Do I know how to report a vaccine reaction to the proper federal health authorities? Do I know the factors that contra-indicate my child for vaccination temporarily or permanently? Does my physician? Has my doctor completed a thorough examination and taken a complete medical history before administering a vaccination? Do I believe in herd immunity and if I do, do I feel obligated to participate in it by participating in mass vaccination?

 

 

Some of the answers are unknowable-how will unknowns affect my decision? Some are very personal/philosophical/religious. Other answers are found through research.

 

 

The Research:

 

 

Who provided the studies? Are the studies impartial? Are there any conflicts of interest financial or otherwise, in the production of the studies? Were adequate test groups used? How many people were used in the studies? Are there contradictory studies? How long in duration were the studies? Are the results of the studies logical, consistent, and sufficient as a basis for making the decision?

 

 

The Decision:

Did I

1)Gather the information and make conclusions myself?

2)Read the interpretations of others and come to my conclusion?

3)Consciously accept the conclusion of others?

4) Skip the decision making process and do what I have been taught to do?

 

 

If I did 1 or 2 did I weigh the risks of the disease against the risk of the vaccine? When weighing the two risks did I consider both the probability and the severity of each outcome? What weight do I assign to unknown risks?

 

 

For all 4 answers: How comfortable am I with the judgment, analytical skill, or decision making ability of others upon whom I rely?

 

 

Do my beliefs, religious or otherwise, affect or dictate my decision? Do emotional issues enter into this decision? If so, how much weight do I assign to the horror stories that are told on both sides of this debate? How do I reconcile them?

 

 

Do I come to the same conclusions about vaccination, no matter which way I approach this decision? If not, how do I reconcile the differences?

 

 

How important is the approval of my family, peers, physicians, etc. which may be withheld no matter which decision I make? Am I able to explain my decisions to others to my own satisfaction? Am I comfortable making life and death decisions for my family, myself, and possibly others around me? Can I accept the inconvenience or suffering others might experience based on the decisions I make? Am I comfortable with the legal issues associated with the decision I make? How much legal freedom is there in my state and country to make my decision?

[Aelwydd]

My husband and I brainstormed these questions as we looked into the issue. Maybe it will be useful to someone else.

 

 

 

Disease:

What is the actual likelihood of contracting the disease? How is the disease contracted? What is the spectrum of symptoms of the disease? What symptoms are most common? Most rare? How likely are permanent or fatal complications of the disease within the context of modern sanitary practices and good overall health and nutrition? What is the history of the disease and its cycles? How long will naturally acquired immunity to the disease last? Does a natural acquired immunity to the disease confer additional benefits over a vaccine simulated immunity? What treatment options are available to ameliorate the diseases symptoms? Would having the disease mean being quarantined from a specific segment of the population? How long does such a quarantine last? Are the disease and its consequences acceptable to myself, my family, and my social network? Can I accept the social stigma of the disease? Am I comfortable with the fact that my unvaccinated child will likely contract some of the diseases for which vaccines exist, and at least some people will say it was because I did not vaccinate my child?

 

 

The Vaccine:

 

 

How effective is the vaccine? Do some people still catch the disease in spite of or because of being vaccinated? How often do those two occur? What is the spectrum of adverse reaction to the vaccine? How likely are permanent or fatal complications of the vaccine reactions in the context of modern sanitary practice and good overall health and nutrition? What is the probability that other vaccine reactions exist and have yet to be quantified? When is the best time to vaccinate? Are there advantages to delaying vaccinating? What are the contents of the vaccine? Are the methods used to manufacture and test the vaccine acceptable to me? Have I read and understood the release form/patient information sheet before I signed it? Have I read the manufacturer's package insert/patient information sheet? Do I have a copy of the doctor's legal records listing the vaccine manufacturer's name and lot number? Can I recognize a vaccine reaction? Do I know how to report a vaccine reaction to the proper federal health authorities? Do I know the factors that contra-indicate my child for vaccination temporarily or permanently? Does my physician? Has my doctor completed a thorough examination and taken a complete medical history before administering a vaccination? Do I believe in herd immunity and if I do, do I feel obligated to participate in it by participating in mass vaccination?

 

 

Some of the answers are unknowable-how will unknowns affect my decision? Some are very personal/philosophical/religious. Other answers are found through research.

 

 

The Research:

 

 

Who provided the studies? Are the studies impartial? Are there any conflicts of interest financial or otherwise, in the production of the studies? Were adequate test groups used? How many people were used in the studies? Are there contradictory studies? How long in duration were the studies? Are the results of the studies logical, consistent, and sufficient as a basis for making the decision?

 

 

The Decision:

Did I

1)Gather the information and make conclusions myself?

2)Read the interpretations of others and come to my conclusion?

3)Consciously accept the conclusion of others?

4) Skip the decision making process and do what I have been taught to do?

 

 

If I did 1 or 2 did I weigh the risks of the disease against the risk of the vaccine? When weighing the two risks did I consider both the probability and the severity of each outcome? What weight do I assign to unknown risks?

 

 

For all 4 answers: How comfortable am I with the judgment, analytical skill, or decision making ability of others upon whom I rely?

 

 

Do my beliefs, religious or otherwise, affect or dictate my decision? Do emotional issues enter into this decision? If so, how much weight do I assign to the horror stories that are told on both sides of this debate? How do I reconcile them?

 

 

Do I come to the same conclusions about vaccination, no matter which way I approach this decision? If not, how do I reconcile the differences?

 

 

How important is the approval of my family, peers, physicians, etc. which may be withheld no matter which decision I make? Am I able to explain my decisions to others to my own satisfaction? Am I comfortable making life and death decisions for my family, myself, and possibly others around me? Can I accept the inconvenience or suffering others might experience based on the decisions I make? Am I comfortable with the legal issues associated with the decision I make? How much legal freedom is there in my state and country to make my decision?

 

 

Omg, I'm in love with your brain. I consider this post a monument to critical thinking. THANK YOU. This is exactly the kind of balanced approach I tried to take with ds, and it still wasn't easy to decide.

 

But you just demonstrated how complex the issues are that surround vaxxing our dc. I'll say it again: thank you. Brilliant post.

[Ellesmere]

It's true; that's why I don't take a hard-line position on this, even though from a public health perspective, immunizations help control and reduce infectious outbreak. I delayed several of ds' vaccines, and I'm still not completely comfortable with a few that he's had.

 

The chickenpox vaccine, IMO, is one of the worst excuses ever for Big Pharma to make money. My son's generation will now enter adulthood, not with naturally, active acquired immunity (the best kind), but with a waning active artificially acquired immunity, right when the disease poses the worst risk if infection sets in. If I had a dd, I'd be especially concerned, because even if she's had the chickenpox, if she is around hordes of other young adults all getting sick with the disease, and she's pregnant and her own immunity is compromised, guess what? That's a BAD SCENARIO.

 

Anyway, point being that I think there are "good vaccines," there are "less helpful" vaccines, and then there are what I call "corporate scams contributing to a national health crisis."

 

Parents have to be willing to research and be discerning, because the risk is never a sum-zero game (i.e., all risk assumed by one party, no risk for another) you know?

 

Excellent points and good to hear this from a public health worker. I rarely talk about vaccines because it is so polarizing. We have friends that are hard-line about not vaccinating and I think they question our parenting, even though we understand their feelings.

OP - I understand the frustration of having to find a new doctor. Dh's job moves us every 2-3 years. We've been through countless doctors - pedis, gyn, eye, dentist, family. It is a lot of work, and I can understand your frustration.

 

My only suggestion would be to just decide on a day and start making phone calls. If you can't find a pedi, you may want to try a family practitioner. There were a couple places we lived that had no pedi within 100 miles. Dd went through the removal of her tonsils (and all the visits prior to the surgeon) with the most wonderful D.O.

 

I'm not even going to enter the vax debate.

(Yes, I am a coward.)

:lol: I won't call you a coward!

This makes me realize I'm very spoiled. We have lived in the same place for years.  I agree, a family practitioner can be a wonderful solution and she is wonderful with all of us.