While we are on the subject of Christian differences

[Parrothead]

I know that some Catholics, for instance, are not Christians. Some, at no point in their lives make individual decisions to accept the "gift of salvation" for themselves... and as rituals are not what "saves" you.... it's the "profession of faith"...

 

I will say, yes, there are some cultural Catholics out there. They do not know their faith much beyond Christmas and Easter. But beyond that I can't say. I do not know what is in their heart. Truly that is between them and God.

 

If I've learned anything from this forum, it is not to judge too often or too quickly.

 

Now, as to profession of faith and Catholics. Part of the mass is the Profession of Faith where the Nicene Creed is said. We profess what we believe. Do you mean something more than that?

[Aquinas Academy]

It's funny, I'm not unhappy with the Anglican church at all, I just find Catholicism intriguing.

I was a content Anglican when I began exploring Catholicism. :) I didn't think I'd convert, but in the end the history of the RCC won me over. Founded by Jesus, the Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 years. Apologies to all the lovely Orthodox ladies here. It's amazing. I highly encourage you to go to Mass. :)

[mommaduck]

That's interesting that you say that salvation is a continuing experience. It kind of makes sense and is sort of in line with what I have come to believe. So much to think about!

 

Y'all really have me pondering all this stuff now - and seriously realizing how woefully uneducated I am when it comes to theology! :)

 

A favorite clip

 

 

[WIS0320]

Why can't you go straight to God?

 

FWIW, my mom was visiting a Catholic church and she fell into the confessional as she was walking by. I told her that, clearly, God shoved her in there.

 

We are to confess our sins to one another within the Christian Body as well as confess to God. The priest fulfills that requirement that we confess our sins to one another and he acts as a conduit between Christ and ourselves when we need some help reconnecting due to cut wires (mortal sin). You must also be truly sorry, repentant and sure that you will take efforts to not repeat the same sin again or the confession itself is invalid. Mortal sin is sin that is freely committed with full knowledge and consent at the time of the sin that the action that is being taken is wrong.

 

Think of it like a shoe that has become unlaced to the point that the shoe will no longer stay on the foot. Mortal sin causes you to be so out of shape spiritually that you need help reaching your shoe to get it laced tightly again so you can continue on your way without tripping. The priest helps you get your shoe laced on properly again by helping you purge your conscience, giving advice and penance, He also creates a conduit between God and the penitent because the penitent is in a position of having willfully cut the tie between himself and God by his choices and actions.

[milovany]

...I'm not a very demonstrative person and I'm not very emotional about religion or my beliefs in general, so I'm not sure what a relationship with Jesus is supposed to be like ... At this point I feel like I believe in Jesus but I don't have a super personal relationship with him because I'm not really sure what to pray about or when to pray.

 

This very much describes me, and how I felt when I was an evangelical Protestant. I would go into times of group prayer and just felt like a bumbling weirdee who couldn't find the words (this even happened in my private prayers). What was wrong with me? This is one of the things I feel like the ancient Church (we are Eastern Orthodox) has given me -- the gift of prayer. I also now know I am growing in Christ and being united to Him, because of the mysteries the Church has for me to participate in (baptism, confession, the Eucharist, relationship with/to people in the Church, all of life, really -- we see all of life as sacramental). It's not at all based on my emotional involvement like it used to be; it's based on something we believe was developed by the Holy Spirit in the early church; something ancient and unchanging and true.

Edited May 28, 2011 by milovaný

[Parrothead]

 

Ah, yes. The Baptist church I went to described the start of a relationship with a personal Savior as a specific moment in time. But they did not identify as Protestant, either.

I think this is where the same but different starts to happen. There is no specific moment that is celebrated. I can't tell you what day or how old I was when I realized more than "Jesus loves me, this I know." I will say I was probably very young.

 

How this happens is vastly different and probably much much more personal with a Catholic (or even EO) than with any other Christian. There aren't alter calls (is that term correct?) where one decides to give a "shout out." (Not to be flippant at all.) There really is no recognition, and maybe not even a conscious decision for some.

 

It may have something to do with knowing from infancy that we are God's children. If someone asks me, I've always been a Christian. I've always known that Jesus is my Savior.

 

Different, but very much the same.

 

ETA: What about the little ones? What if they have not reached the "age of accountability" (is this different for different denominations?) but know they have sinned and want forgiveness? Are they told they have to wait to be baptized?

Edited May 28, 2011 by Parrothead

[Aquinas Academy]

A favorite clip

 

 

Wonderful. :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

These are general statements about my belief and are not directed toward anyone person or religion.

 

1. God is not a force but is a person.

 

2. God is holy and cannot have a relationship with anyone less than holy.

 

3. We are born with a sin nature and a relationship of animosity between us and God (not because we feel any animosity but because there is a separation between us due to the presence of sin).

 

4. Jesus Christ died on the cross as a substitute for us, taking our sin in our stead. He endured the full wrath of God the father including separation relationally from Him for a time.

 

5. If we accept what Jesus Christ did on the cross as applying to us personally, we are given a new relationship with God based on God's relationship with the righteous Jesus Christ. We are accepted as holy because Jesus Christ is holy. We are now part of God's family and Jesus Christ indwells us spiritually. (God the Holy Spirit also indwells us spiritually.)

 

6. What I described in number 5 is what I mean by "having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ".

[ereks mom]

I think it's a sort of hard thing to explain, to me, anyway. Jesus is as real to me, as personal and as personable, as my husband sitting next to me. He's not simply a deity, He's my Best Friend, in every since [sic] of the word. Our relationship is intimate. I talk to him in the same way I talk to my family.

 

At the same time, He is God. He is deserving of my worship, and I am full of awe and reverence for him. I believe He wants both our worship, our reverence, and our simple friendship. He wants us to love Him, as a Brother, as a Friend, and as a King. Not just as God.

 

Not sure if I'm making much sense, there, but I did my best. ;)

 

:iagree: Very well-put. :)

[Parrothead]

 

The people that I know who use the term "personal relationship" (and this is not representative of all) would be horrified to call say "bestest buddy".

I'm glad (very glad) to know this. I won't feel so weirded out when I here the term any more. Every time I heard "personal relationship" I had a mental image of a person waving up to Heaven saying, "Hey, Jesus! How's it hanging?" I'm glad I asked the question now. Thanks.

[justamouse]

Think of it like a shoe that has become unlaced to the point that the shoe will no longer stay on the foot. Mortal sin causes you to be so out of shape spiritually that you need help reaching your shoe to get it laced tightly again so you can continue on your way without tripping. The priest helps you get your shoe laced on properly again by helping you purge your conscience, giving advice and penance,

 

I think penance needs a bit of explanation here because many think that it's something akin to medieval torture, or, working our way out of a sin that's you've received absolution for.

 

The one way I described it to my kids was that the priest was helping you retrain your bad habit. Penance is something very specific. If you've said something mean to someone, next time you see them, say something kind. Sometimes that's a hard thing to do, but it teaches us to refocus to the good of that person, and say something kind from the heart.

 

that's broad, but an idea.

[actuary]

This very much describes me, and how I felt when I was an evangelical Protestant. I would go into times of group prayer and just felt like a bumbling weirdee who couldn't find the words (this even happened in my private prayers). What was wrong with me? This is one of the things I feel like the ancient Church (we are Eastern Orthodox) has given me -- the gift of prayer. I also now know I am growing in Christ and being united to Him, because of the mysteries the Church has for me to participate in (baptism, confession, the Eucharist, relationship with/to people in the Church, all of life, really -- we see all of life as sacramental). It's not at all based on my emotional involvement like it used to be; it's based on something we believe was developed by the Holy Spirit in the early church; something ancient and unchanging and true.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has felt that way - sometimes it feels very awkward praying with my more evangelical friends just because I can't figure out what to say.

 

Add me to the list of people who are now considering maybe trying out a RC/EO church. :)

[WIS0320]

My feelings of a personal relationship with Jesus are different now than when I was Protestant. (And I'll say up front that I know that there are so many Protestant denominations that I am not representing all of them with my own personal experiences!). When I was evangelical the emphasis was always on ME as the defining part of the relationship. God loves ME and wants ME to have a personal relationship with Him, He wants me to be happy, successful and have a great life. I'm so wonderful that God craves for ME to worship Him. Frankly, I think that makes God seem like a big wimp.

 

Now that I am Catholic the emphasis is on a continual pursuit of God because I love Him and desperately want to please Him. It isn't so much what God and the Church can do for me, it is what can I do for Him, how can I please and worship Him as He deserves? It is a more reverent and respectful relationship than it was before. And frankly, it is awfully hard to stop thinking about myself all the time and just to pray in worship or to meditate on Jesus's life. This is why I appreciate Adoration so much even though I didn't really "get it" for a long time.

 

I understand that not all Protestants have this mindset, but I sure did.

[SonshineLearner]

And here is where RC/EO would part ways with most Protestants. It's not that they are what saves you, but rather PART of. Salvations for us is not a one time event. It's a continuing experience. I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

 

Really?? Because I don't see that we have to "part ways" over this. At a point you accept the gift, you are accepting the gift, and you will accept the gift... Doesn't seem so far off when you think of that.... Doesn't there have to be a .... starting point... to have a point in the present and a point.. in the future??

 

:)

[Twilight Woods]

I'm honestly not sure what it means to me yet. I tend not to talk in terms of a personal relationship because it brings up stuff like the Jesus Loves Me, This I Know song where, to me, it seems to be all about the singer, not much about Jesus and nothing at all about the community of believers. I know Jesus loves me but it seems at least as important that He loves us, that He came to save the world, not just me.

 

My personal hangup as I wrestle with the issue. :)

 

I have to say, these Catholic threads have been doing a job on me lately. I figure I may have to get me to a High Anglican service soon or else I might be asking some of my Catholic friends if I can go with them. :D Funny thing is I have a Baptist friend who's been trying to get me to attend her church for ages but she can't make me budge. So here a few Catholics discuss their church for a couple of days and I'm all starry eyed!

 

I couldn't go. Well I COULD but I get very sleepy. My grandma would take us to mass and I couldn't understand anything. :lol:.

 

We recently started going to church again in Feb... my DH went for the first time ever [hell has partially frozen over...swear] and my grandma called me up and asked me if we were going to church b/c everyone thought the world was ending. :glare:

 

Now that were churchgoers.... she want's me to bring Dh and the girls to mass. ;)

[Paige]

How does one have a personal relationship with not only a deity, but the Savior of the world?

 

I"m asking because maybe it is one of those misconceptions - some people call is A when others call the exact same thing B.

 

I think the best examples of what a personal relationship with Jesus should be like are mirrored in the Old Testament books that describe how Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Elisha related to God. For a Christian, a relationship with Jesus is a relationship with God. I do not claim at all to have that kind of relationship, but I look to them as models. They prayed, they expressed their feelings, desires, fears, and hopes to God, and He responded in a way they could understand. Why were those prophets so honored and close to God? IMO, it was because they had learned how to listen, how to have a conversation through prayer, with their God. And God loved them, guided them, had a plan for them, and spoke to their hearts, because as the all mighty creator, He loves His creation, and wants us to know Him. My interpretation of the stories of those Biblical figures is that to them, God was their everything. They relied on Him for direction, for comfort, for their physical needs, and at times for companionship. "Friend," is much too bland of a word for the kind of relationship that I think we are supposed to have, but I don't think many people ever develop a relationship like that. I don't think you must have as close of a relationship as that to be saved/be a Christian, but I think you will have a feeling that you need that relationship and will have a desire in your heart to work towards it- and that desire is placed there by the Holy Spirit who want to be in an ever closer relationship with us.

[mommaduck]

Really?? Because I don't see that we have to "part ways" over this. At a point you accept the gift, you are accepting the gift, and you will accept the gift... Doesn't seem so far off when you think of that.... Doesn't there have to be a .... starting point... to have a point in the present and a point.. in the future??

 

:)

 

Yes, really, when you have churches that want you to be able to name the day or age that you "got saved" at. Or insist that there had to be a "sinner's prayer". The only deviation from that would be the Reformed where there is election/predestination...then you don't have that either.

[SonshineLearner]

I'm glad (very glad) to know this. I won't feel so weirded out when I here the term any more. Every time I heard "personal relationship" I had a mental image of a person waving up to Heaven saying, "Hey, Jesus! How's it hanging?" I'm glad I asked the question now. Thanks.

 

Yes, at the Lutheran church my children did VBS at.. some college aged leaders ... during the time of a Children's Program shouted... God is a real cool guy!! That was for sure NOT a cool statement! :(

 

Personal as you can go directly to God :)

[Twilight Woods]

That happened to me my first Mass!! :lol::lol::lol:

 

 

I use to do it all the time. Imagine an 8 y/o high pitch voice saying the last sentence in the lords prayer while the rest of the church is silent.

 

:D

[Parrothead]

I couldn't go. Well I COULD but I get very sleepy. My grandma would take us to mass and I couldn't understand anything. :lol:.

 

We recently started going to church again in Feb... my DH went for the first time ever [hell has partially frozen over...swear] and my grandma called me up and asked me if we were going to church b/c everyone thought the world was ending. :glare:

 

Now that were churchgoers.... she want's me to bring Dh and the girls to mass. ;)

Unless you specifically go to a Latin mass (or French or Spanish or Italian) you should be able to understand what is going on.

 

 

Here is a link to the Order of the Mass (in English) for anyone interested.

[Parrothead]

Yes, at the Lutheran church my children did VBS at.. some college aged leaders ... during the time of a Children's Program shouted... God is a real cool guy!! That was for sure NOT a cool statement! :(

 

Personal as you can go directly to God :)

Oh, my! Yeah, I don't so much like "The Man upstairs." I think I would have had to speak up it I heard that one.

 

 

 

 

Catholics can and do go directly to God/Jesus so I guess we do have a personal relationship. ;)

[SonshineLearner]

Yes, really, when you have churches that want you to be able to name the day or age that you "got saved" at. Or insist that there had to be a "sinner's prayer". The only deviation from that would be the Reformed where there is election/predestination...then you don't have that either.

 

But see, here's the difference... it's a bit of the whole "difference of terms".... You catechize your children, right? You are constantly saying "Jesus died for your sins".... "Jesus wants you to believe in him"... and more... (ok, these aren't direct catechism quotes...) And some point, even if they can't remember a date and time... they take these as their own... they mentally accept that Jesus died for them... and that they... sinners who would be separated from God... are welcome to believe in Him.... and come to a realization ... even if it's NOT a "prayer of salvation" as you're commenting.... that this is true... and there's some kind of acceptance.. MORE than just a confirmation experience...

 

Ok... so... some of the Catholics I know... actually were cradle Catholics... left... had an "experience" and then became a practicing Catholic again...

 

:)

I'm done... fine... I'll accept that on here... Catholics and Protestants can't have agree on this... Nighty Night :)

[justamouse]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has felt that way - sometimes it feels very awkward praying with my more evangelical friends just because I can't figure out what to say.

 

Add me to the list of people who are now considering maybe trying out a RC/EO church. :)

 

These threads have me eating crow pie, let me tell ya. Let me chew another slice and tell you...

 

I used to think those prayers, those old written ones? Were as dead as the people that wrote them. I couldn't see how God would be pleased with this centuries old prayer. And I was another one for not knowing how. I mean I did, but it was the help me, thank you thing.

 

Let me tell you, I've been reading through the Liturgy of the Hours? (the short version) and those prayers blow anything I could have thought up away. They're not focused on me. They are amazingly God focused and deep. Having them has helped me pray again, and I have to say, praying now means much more than it ever did before.

Edited May 28, 2011 by justamouse
creative spelling correction

[Alenee]

These threads ahve me eating crow pie, let me tell ya. Let me chew another slice and tell you...

 

I used to think those prayers, those old written ones? Were as dead as the people that wrote them. I couldn't see how God would be pleased with this centuries old prayer.

 

Let me tell you, I've been reading through the Liturgy of the Hours? (the short version) and those prayers blow anything I could have thought up away. They're not focused on me. They are amazingly God focused and deep. Having them has helped me pray again, and I have to say, praying now means much more than it ever did before.

 

Amen!

[mommaduck]

nm

Edited May 28, 2011 by mommaduck

[Twilight Woods]

Unless you specifically go to a Latin mass (or French or Spanish or Italian) you should be able to understand what is going on.

 

 

Here is a link to the Order of the Mass (in English) for anyone interested.

 

it was done in english. I was a kid so the order of mass was very "dry" for me. PLUS my mom who was raised catholic, went to a catholic school [ruler smacks on the left hand and all] converted to Lutheran [M synod] so for me it was just very different. Some of the stuff was similar [Apostles Creed, Lords Prayer].

 

The church we go to now is a lot different. Small groups, band plays, Sermon, offering, communion is only done the first Sunday of the month. I need to be baptized as an adult and had to give a date when I was saved and how I became saved...or reaffirmation. So in those aspects they are very different, but in others they are the same [salvation, holy trinity, etc]

[Ellesmere]

I'm glad (very glad) to know this. I won't feel so weirded out when I here the term any more. Every time I heard "personal relationship" I had a mental image of a person waving up to Heaven saying, "Hey, Jesus! How's it hanging?" I'm glad I asked the question now. Thanks.

I can assure you that at least some of the people who are confused about Catholics and profess a "personal relationship" would never call Jesus their "buddy". They would say "Jesus", "Lord", or something similar. :001_smile:

However, they are going to say "personal relationship" as something that they would be rather surprised to hear a Catholic would have, if that makes sense. :(

 

Partly because they believe we are born without it and cannot have it until a specific time after one has realized the truth of the gospel, God has called, and the person responds with a prayer desiring forgiveness and repentance.

 

I think this is where the same but different starts to happen. There is no specific moment that is celebrated. I can't tell you what day or how old I was when I realized more than "Jesus loves me, this I know." I will say I was probably very young.

 

How this happens is vastly different and probably much much more personal with a Catholic (or even EO) than with any other Christian. There aren't alter calls (is that term correct?) where one decides to give a "shout out." (Not to be flippant at all.) There really is no recognition, and maybe not even a conscious decision for some.

 

It may have something to do with knowing from infancy that we are God's children. If someone asks me, I've always been a Christian. I've always known that Jesus is my Savior.

 

Different, but very much the same.

 

ETA: What about the little ones? What if they have not reached the "age of accountability" (is this different for different denominations?) but know they have sinned and want forgiveness? Are they told they have to wait to be baptized?

I'm not speaking for everyone that uses invitations or altar calls, just what I've been exposed to.

 

Altar calls, I think, is correct. Or "invitation". It's an opportunity to go hear the gospel again and respond to the call of God for salvation. The "age of accountability" varies depending on the child. Yes, some are told they aren't old enough if the adult discerns that the child is responding to go along with the crowd or is just parroting what they have heard. If a child really seems to understand, then they have reached the age of accountability (this really ties in more to answer what happens to infants/young children if they die before a testimony of salvation) and can be saved & baptized. And sometimes, if a child is saved young, they go through a time of doubt since they don't remember it or didn't do anything really bad before their profession. Then they are counseled about assurance of salvation. Either they get assurance or actually get saved later.

They think children have to first get saved in order to be baptized. So, no, they wouldn't be told to wait if since if they want forgiveness, that is evidence they have reached the age of accountability. It's not a specific age, it depends on if God has called and the child has responded. It might explain why some Baptists evangelize Catholics.

[Parrothead]

I can assure you that at least some of the people who are confused about Catholics and profess a "personal relationship" would never call Jesus their "buddy". They would say "Jesus", "Lord", or something similar. :001_smile:

However, they are going to say "personal relationship" as something that they would be rather surprised to hear a Catholic would have, if that makes sense. :(

 

Partly because they believe we are born without it and cannot have it until a specific time after one has realized the truth of the gospel, God has called, and the person responds with a prayer desiring forgiveness and repentance.

 

 

I'm not speaking for everyone that uses invitations or altar calls, just what I've been exposed to.

 

Altar calls, I think, is correct. Or "invitation". It's an opportunity to go hear the gospel again and respond to the call of God for salvation. The "age of accountability" varies depending on the child. Yes, some are told they aren't old enough if the adult discerns that the child is responding to go along with the crowd or is just parroting what they have heard. If a child really seems to understand, then they have reached the age of accountability (this really ties in more to answer what happens to infants/young children if they die before a testimony of salvation) and can be saved & baptized. And sometimes, if a child is saved young, they go through a time of doubt since they don't remember it or didn't do anything really bad before their profession. Then they are counseled about assurance of salvation. Either they get assurance or actually get saved in their teen/adult years.

 

Children have to first get saved in order to be baptized. So, no, they wouldn't be told to wait if since if they want forgiveness, that is evidence they have reached the age of accountability. It's not a specific age, it depends on if God has called and the child has responded. It might explain why some Baptists evangelize Catholics. They cannot conceive of the idea that you always were a Christian. I don't doubt your relationship with Jesus or salvation, but that statement has been drilled into me as evidence that a person is unsaved, and thus some of the questions about whether or not Catholics have a personal relationship.

Thanks for all this info.

[OnTheBrink]

These threads have me eating crow pie, let me tell ya. Let me chew another slice and tell you...

 

I used to think those prayers, those old written ones? Were as dead as the people that wrote them. I couldn't see how God would be pleased with this centuries old prayer. And I was another one for not knowing how. I mean I did, but it was the help me, thank you thing.

 

Let me tell you, I've been reading through the Liturgy of the Hours? (the short version) and those prayers blow anything I could have thought up away. They're not focused on me. They are amazingly God focused and deep. Having them has helped me pray again, and I have to say, praying now means much more than it ever did before.

 

I've found this to be true for myself, as well. Some of the old prayers by the church fathers or saints are so beautiful they make me cry.

[asta]

Will a non-Catholic Christian explain the phrase, "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" to me?

 

I've heard it off and on over the years, and even once asked about it during one of the heated threads.

 

Do you think that this personal relationship with Jesus is necessary for your salvation?

 

How does one have a personal relationship with not only a deity, but the Savior of the world?

 

I"m asking because maybe it is one of those misconceptions - some people call is A when others call the exact same thing B.

 

Honest, this isn't a troll answer...

 

I literally *cannot* hear this phrase without hearing the lyrics to "Personal Jesus" by Depeche Mode in my head. The actual song is very catchy.

 

Back to regular programming.

 

 

asta

[asta]

And here is where RC/EO would part ways with most Protestants. It's not that they are what saves you, but rather PART of. Salvations for us is not a one time event. It's a continuing experience. I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

 

It's a conjugation.

 

From the Latin conjugare, to 'yoke together'.

 

 

a

[asta]

Partly because they believe we are born without it and cannot have it until a specific time after one has realized the truth of the gospel, God has called, and the person responds with a prayer desiring forgiveness and repentance.

 

 

That would be a definite disconnect right there.

 

Catholics believe that the soul of a human is infused at the moment of conception (miss egg, meet mr sperm), and that that soul is (obviously) put there by God. eg: the literal making of a new life is "called forth" by God (because, let's face it - how can you have a new life without a soul?).

 

This is why the sacrament of baptism after birth is considered so important to Catholics: the baby has already been 'called'... and as a human being on earth, they are subject to all of the same cr@p the rest of us humans are. Baptism isn't just a 'cleansing' of sins, it is (I'm not describing this well) a kind of protective umbrella over the soul.

 

AND, although it is a sacrament most commonly performed on babies and by a priest, it doesn't *have* to be. In extraordinary circumstances, any Catholic can do it. All they have to do is sprinkle water (it must be water, not Gatorade, Wine or anything else) on their forehead and say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". This is done in places where there is no priest available, and, sadly, when a baby is dying or a person is in danger of dying and wishes to be baptized. There is no big ceremony, no big "calling". Just grace.

 

As others have said, perhaps a difference in vocabulary definitions.

 

 

a

[KristinaBreece]

Really?? Because I don't see that we have to "part ways" over this. At a point you accept the gift, you are accepting the gift, and you will accept the gift... Doesn't seem so far off when you think of that.... Doesn't there have to be a .... starting point... to have a point in the present and a point.. in the future??

 

:)

 

Yep. Like, I can't pinpoint the day/moment that I learned to walk. But in order to be walking today, I must have learned at one point.

 

Honest, this isn't a troll answer...

 

I literally *cannot* hear this phrase without hearing the lyrics to "Personal Jesus" by Depeche Mode in my head. The actual song is very catchy.

 

Back to regular programming.

 

 

asta

 

lol-- I was vacillating between that (but I hear it coming from Johnny Cash) and the "Buddy Christ" from Kevin Smith's Dogma. :001_unsure::leaving:

Edited May 28, 2011 by KristinaBreece

[asta]

I *love* Dogma.

 

Can't just recommend it to everyone though; you never know who will get mortally offended...

 

Love her skipping in the grass!

 

 

a

[Alice]

A favorite clip

 

 

 

And here is where RC/EO would part ways with most Protestants. It's not that they are what saves you, but rather PART of. Salvations for us is not a one time event. It's a continuing experience. I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

 

 

How is this different from the idea of justification and sanctification? It seems the same to me just said in different ways.

[Chris in VA]

I'm Episcopalian, which is actually pretty close to Catholic (some call it Catholic Lite ;) ).

 

Re Altar Calls--I'd say we, and Catholics, have an altar call of sorts every week--it's called Eucharist.

 

Re moment of salvation--I like what Nicky Gumbel says about infant baptism vs adult baptism (moment of salvation). He says imagine relationship is like a train. Some people board the train at a specific time. Some people are born on the train.

Not saying someone is born a Christian (that would be "reborn" ;) ) but that some are raised as Christian and so may never consciously know a time when they are not in relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

I still struggle with the baptism thing. I do know, historically, that a child used to be baptised and then immediately chrismated by a bishop. Then there was a separation of those two acts, mostly due to an increase in population and the unwillingness or inability of the parents to travel to where the bishop was. So the two acts became separated into baptism and confirmation. Now confirmation is seen as the time when the young teen "accepts Jesus as a personal saviour." Really, that phrase is part of the Anglican/Episcopalian prayerbook service of baptism, from which confirmation comes (it's like baptism part two). Someone took that vow for the baby being baptised, and then, at confirmation, the person takes responsibility for it himself. It's like activating your citizenship, in a way--

 

Just some thoughts.

[actuary]

So while we're talking about infant baptisms:

 

I was baptized as an infant. I always thought it was the norm to be baptized as an infant until I got to college and met some people of other denominations. So does anyone know why there's the split among Protestants on infant baptism? From what I've gathered (from reading wikipedia;)), the mainline denominations tend to believe in infant baptism. So do they view infant baptisms similarly to the Catholic church?

 

I know this is really sad that I don't even know the basic theology behind the denomination I was raised in - off to do more reading! :)

[WishboneDawn]

Or lulled into a false sense of security as it is so much the same as an Anglican High Mass. Until the Our Father. Remember to stop early, or you'll be outed, Dawn! :D

LOL!

[WishboneDawn]

I believe that at some point you must make a conscience decision to accept Jesus as your Savior who died for your sins... Praying is speaking with our Father God. You are worshipping God and asking Him for guidance... for mercy... for forgiveness of sins you have committed that you have not "confessed" yet. That's intimate, right?

I believe that some of EVERY denomination are not Christians... I believe that some denominations are not Christian, and yet some in them are Christians.

I know that some Catholics, for instance, are not Christians. Some, at no point in their lives make individual decisions to accept the "gift of salvation" for themselves... and as rituals are not what "saves" you.... it's the "profession of faith"...

I do believe that Protestants use terms with Catholics and because the Catholic doesn't respond in the same term, they are judged as "non-Christians" which... I have many Catholic friends who have "personal relationships" with Jesus Christ :)

Romans 6:23 (King James Version) 23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

You mean some Catholics don't accept a very Protestant interpretation of salvation? Shocking. :)

 

Doesn't bother me but then I'm probably more in line with Catholic thinking on the issue of salvation. Matthew 18:20 and John 3:17 are worth a look. This is why I have a problem with people describing themselves as "Bible believing" Christians (as if differentiating themselves from those other non-Bible believing Christians :glare:) or quoting a lot of scripture to support their beliefs about who is and who is not Christian. There are a LOT of words in the Bible. There are a LOT of different paths you can walk as a Christian and yet find scriptural support for. Some of those paths even seem to be opposite each other but they are often no less Biblical then the ones they seem to be in conflict with.

[WishboneDawn]

We are to confess our sins to one another within the Christian Body as well as confess to God.

 

This is Matthew 18:20 again, no? My minister likes to say he doesn't have a lot of requirements for labeling someone a Christian but one of the most important is that they belong to a community of Christians. That without that one cannot be Christian and cannot achieve salvation. That doesn't mean attending a church but having at least someone else to pray with or perhaps, in the case of religious hermits, a community of believers that's supports or prays for you. I tend to gravitate to that idea. He came to save the world, not just me.

 

Of course, my minister comes from the High Anglican tradition. :D

[WishboneDawn]

This very much describes me, and how I felt when I was an evangelical Protestant. I would go into times of group prayer and just felt like a bumbling weirdee who couldn't find the words (this even happened in my private prayers). What was wrong with me? This is one of the things I feel like the ancient Church (we are Eastern Orthodox) has given me -- the gift of prayer. I also now know I am growing in Christ and being united to Him, because of the mysteries the Church has for me to participate in (baptism, confession, the Eucharist, relationship with/to people in the Church, all of life, really -- we see all of life as sacramental). It's not at all based on my emotional involvement like it used to be; it's based on something we believe was developed by the Holy Spirit in the early church; something ancient and unchanging and true.

 

This speaks to me a lot.

[mommaduck]

How is this different from the idea of justification and sanctification? It seems the same to me just said in different ways.

 

The Reformed are a bit different than many other Protestants as they look at their baptism as well and not a specific "this is when I said the sinner's prayer".

 

The difference is, if you are speaking from a non-Reformed point of view, Sancitification is something that is seen as something that happens "after salvation" has occurred, rather than a continuing process of "being saved". Those that see it differently, well, maybe they are on their way towards something else ;)

 

The point is, we don't divide it up, slice and dice it, etc. That is another difference I've found between East and West. The West is more Judicial and tries to pounded every piece out till man has decided that "this is how God works". The East accepts the mystery of God and His working just as they are, a mystery ;) (I'd say Catholics are a bit in the middle on this, as they are the ones that started the more Judicial manner of theology, and the Reformed carried it on, but they also accept mystery at the same time)

Edited May 28, 2011 by mommaduck

[Alice]

The Reformed are a bit different than many other Protestants as they look at their baptism as well and not a specific "this is when I said the sinner's prayer".

 

The difference is, if you are speaking from a non-Reformed point of view, Sancitification is something that is seen as something that happens "after salvation" has occurred, rather than a continuing process of "being saved". Those that see it differently, well, maybe they are on their way towards something else ;)

 

The point is, we don't divide it up, slice and dice it, etc. That is another difference I've found between East and West. The West is more Judicial and tries to pounded every piece out till man has decided that "this is how God works". The East accepts the mystery of God and His working just as they are, a mystery ;) (I'd say Catholics are a bit in the middle on this, as they are the ones that started the more Judicial manner of theology, and the Reformed carried it on, but they also accept mystery at the same time)

 

This is very interesting. As you probably know, I come from a Reformed standpoint so maybe that is the difference. I do see the difference between the idea of looking at things as being a set of data points and more as a continuum. I'm also ok with a lot of mystery. :)

 

I'd say in the circles I travel there isn't a lot of discussion of altar calls and praying the sinners prayer. It's more a discussion of God's work in your life, an ongoing work.

 

A bit of the subject, but I have a friend who had a fairly amazing conversion. He was in prison, read the Bible and had a very definite "point of conversion". Once when someone remarked to him that this was a great example of God's grace (the Reformed buzzword :)) he commented that yes it was but that it was just as much an example of God's grace to grow up in a Christian home always having known about God and not really knowing a time when you didn't believe. That really struck me. I think we do put too much emphasis on the magic moment in the Protestant church rather than in the process.

[Parrothead]

I think we do put too much emphasis on the magic moment in the Protestant church rather than in the process.

I wonder why the date/age is so important. Are there anniversary celebrations? I ask because it used to be a big thing to celebrate one's baptism day in the Catholic home.

[mommaduck]

This is very interesting. As you probably know, I come from a Reformed standpoint so maybe that is the difference. I do see the difference between the idea of looking at things as being a set of data points and more as a continuum. I'm also ok with a lot of mystery. :)

 

I'd say in the circles I travel there isn't a lot of discussion of altar calls and praying the sinners prayer. It's more a discussion of God's work in your life, an ongoing work.

 

A bit of the subject, but I have a friend who had a fairly amazing conversion. He was in prison, read the Bible and had a very definite "point of conversion". Once when someone remarked to him that this was a great example of God's grace (the Reformed buzzword :)) he commented that yes it was but that it was just as much an example of God's grace to grow up in a Christian home always having known about God and not really knowing a time when you didn't believe. That really struck me. I think we do put too much emphasis on the magic moment in the Protestant church rather than in the process.

I had a feeling you were. I was raised Baptist by a Nazarene and a semi-unitarian spiritualist. FIL was a Baptist pastor. We went through a lot of other types of churches before becoming Reformed and then I became a HARD CORE Reformed/Puritan. Eventually there was the slide into Orthodoxy (my husband and children were heading into Orthodoxy and basically, I trusted in God's Providence and took a leap of Faith :lol: A Puritan in Orthodoxy doesn't stay a Puritan for long). However, it's because of how Reformed theology looks at things, imo, that so many Reformed have become either RC or EO.

[mommaduck]

I wonder why the date/age is so important. Are there anniversary celebrations? I ask because it used to be a big thing to celebrate one's baptism day in the Catholic home.

 

I've seen such celebrations. You have the day you were born and the day you were "born again".

[TXMomof4]

I think this is where the same but different starts to happen. There is no specific moment that is celebrated. I can't tell you what day or how old I was when I realized more than "Jesus loves me, this I know." I will say I was probably very young.

 

How this happens is vastly different and probably much much more personal with a Catholic (or even EO) than with any other Christian. There aren't alter calls (is that term correct?) where one decides to give a "shout out." (Not to be flippant at all.) There really is no recognition, and maybe not even a conscious decision for some.

 

It may have something to do with knowing from infancy that we are God's children. If someone asks me, I've always been a Christian. I've always known that Jesus is my Savior.

 

Different, but very much the same.

 

ETA: What about the little ones? What if they have not reached the "age of accountability" (is this different for different denominations?) but know they have sinned and want forgiveness? Are they told they have to wait to be baptized?

 

The age of accountability is personal. Johnny over there may realize his sin is causing a rift in his relationship with God at the age of 7. Susie over there may have a completely different life and not realize that rift til she's 13. Our church doesn't baptize until a person can grasp the seriousness of their life and choices - and choose God.

[actuary]

This is very interesting. As you probably know, I come from a Reformed standpoint so maybe that is the difference. I do see the difference between the idea of looking at things as being a set of data points and more as a continuum. I'm also ok with a lot of mystery. :)

 

I'd say in the circles I travel there isn't a lot of discussion of altar calls and praying the sinners prayer. It's more a discussion of God's work in your life, an ongoing work.

 

A bit of the subject, but I have a friend who had a fairly amazing conversion. He was in prison, read the Bible and had a very definite "point of conversion". Once when someone remarked to him that this was a great example of God's grace (the Reformed buzzword :)) he commented that yes it was but that it was just as much an example of God's grace to grow up in a Christian home always having known about God and not really knowing a time when you didn't believe. That really struck me. I think we do put too much emphasis on the magic moment in the Protestant church rather than in the process.

 

So Presbyterians are Reformed? This is making more sense to me now, why I didn't hear much of altar calls and much about the sinner's prayer till I got to college. In college I joined an inter-denominational group and the campus pastor was Pentecostal, so that was my first introduction to a different way of Protestantism. Which I guess this is all why reading some of these threads about Catholics versus Protestants is confusing to me because my upbringing doesn't really seem to fit neatly into either characterization.

 

And btw, I've decided to try out a local Anglican church tomorrow morning...baby steps right? :lol:

[Ms. Riding Hood]

I'm beginning to wonder how much of this is semantics and misunderstanding. So far it seems to be the case.

 

As a Baptist who converted to Catholicism, I must say I've thought this sooo many times. I want to say to my Baptist relatives that we are all so much closer in what we believe that they could ever imagine. (Actually what I want to say is, "The riches! The untold riches you don't know you are missing!" But that's a whole other story.)

 

There is a lot of misunderstanding of terms. Now, be clear: there is also distinct difference in certain areas of belief, but whoever thought that we even shared the basics?!? :001_smile:

[Embassy]

The difference is, if you are speaking from a non-Reformed point of view, Sancitification is something that is seen as something that happens "after salvation" has occurred, rather than a continuing process of "being saved". Those that see it differently, well, maybe they are on their way towards something else ;)

 

And then there are some non-Reformed Protestants who believe justification and sanctification are a done deal. They believe the righteousness and holiness of Jesus are continually imputed to them. They view the Christian walk as working out who God already made them to be and not as a process toward sanctification or salvation.