Predestination and free will: Can they be reconciled or can they co-exist?

[Teachin'Mine]

My belief is that we're all God's children. He created each of us in His likeness and calls each of us to Him. But He would never take away the free will which was His gift to us. So, through free will, we can make the decision whether to follow Him or not. I believe that He continually calls us to Him right up to our time of death. Remember the "Good Thief"? He didn't use his free will to choose God, until his last moments. And God, through His Divine Mercy, told him he would be in paradise with Him. So I believe that someone can live their whole life not knowing God, and will meet him upon their death, and then with the knowledge of God at that time, they can choose whether to return that love and choose heaven, or reject Him and choose hell. I do believe it is our choice.

 

I don't believe in pre-destination in the sense that we have no say in it all. I do believe that our all-knowing God knows what we will choose - as in Jesus knew what Judas would do - but doesn't infringe on our free will.

[MamaSheep]

Thank you Amy. Not sure I will take the time to read an entire book on the subject. It is not anything that I believe or will believe, but it is something I would like to understand why others believe and what they believe about it....is there a more condensed version? ;)

 

Dawn

 

I don't know if there's a shorter synopsis of this book anywhere or not. This was just something I came across the other day and it was topical. I don't know if I'll read a whole book about it myself, but I am somewhat intrigued at the idea being an ancient concept found in other cultures through the centuries. I have to admit that evidence of this concept elsewhere is not something I've pursued deeply. The only thing that comes to mind off the top of my head along those lines is that Wordsworth poem:

 

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:

The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,

Hath had elsewhere its setting,

And cometh from afar:

Not in entire forgetfulness,

And not in utter nakedness,

But trailing clouds of glory do we come

From God who is our home:

Heaven lies about us in our infancy!

 

As far as a more condensed version of why we believe what we believe, it comes from scripture, but I don't want to crash this thread by going into it too much here. I just thought I'd mention the book since it was relevant and I was interested to come across it.

[6packofun]

We could, but we also know the verses that tell man to choose. Choose God, Jesus, choose life, choose what is good, right, etc. So, while I think God predestines some people and events in history, I still believe that free will has a part for individual salvation. This also leads to another issue, that of whether or not God micromanages minute details of our lives (we like to give him credit when He helps us find our keys, but He's hands-off when crap hits the fan...LOL). But I digress. :D

 

It's not totally satisfying for me, but I can accept the "it's both" answer to this most of the time. However, for non-believers, I think this can be a HUGE hurdle. Skeptics will say that this IS an inconsistency in the Bible and they would be right from their perspective--maybe just plain right. It's not satisfying for *them* to have Christians label things a mystery, even if it is. So, I think some of my frustration with the topic is looking at it from the outside-in, kwim? I don't like thinking that God's Word itself, which we need to trust, could be a turn off to searching people. I know that it's not that simple, I'm just sharing my thoughts on the whole thing. Thanks for listening! LOL

[Bloggermom]

I believe in foreordination (many are called but few are chosen), but not predestination. The gift of salvation is available to all who believe, it is up to us to choose to accept it or not.

[MamaSheep]

Rom 8:21-30

 

Rom 9:11-13

 

Rom 9:15-16

 

Rom 9:21

 

:)

 

I'm not Lovedtodeath, and hopefully she'll chime in, but my take on those verses, in a nutshell, is not that God creates some people to be saved and others to be ****ed, and we don't get any say in the matter, but rather that God creates some people to live in peaceful, pleasant, "honorable" settings, and other people are born into troubled times and circumstances or less "honored" positions, and we don't get to choose the circumstances of our lives.

[SnowWhite]

I don't believe God chooses some people to save and doesn't choose others. I just don't.

 

I believe that He knows the ones who will choose, and He predestined [i.e., works on through their lives] to form them in the image of Christ.

 

In general, I disagree with Calvin, so there you go.

:iagree: This. God knows the end from the beginning (omniscience) and saw before the world was formed who would and who would NOT believe on Christ. He saw the choice they made with their own free will, before they ever existed. Based on that foreknowledge, He chose them and His grace provides for them. God is not willing that any should perish. However, those who would NOT believe perish as a result of that choice, their own free will decision. (which of course God saw in the beginning before the world was formed).

[JadeOrchidSong]

This is an issue that has been debated by many over the centuries- and the question of free will versus predestination has also been debated by many from other religions too. I have examined and only know that i am deeply conditioned by my culture and environment and so is everyone else so free will is not so free as most people think, a lot of the time- but instead conditioned.

 

But...your basic question represents why many of us cannot believe in Christianity in the common sense of the word, of needing to believe in a God who chooses to "save" only the ones who believe in him. It just doesn't hold water at all.

I stated upfront that I am very confused. That is why I need help to clarify the muddiness.

[*********]

Everyone can choose God. Everyone is free to choose God. God does not stop anyone from choosing him.

 

However, because humans are utterly sinful, no one will choose him.

 

This is where God's grace comes in. In his goodness, he chose to change the desires of some and therefore they will choose him.

 

The real mystery is that God would predestine any humans, not that God hasn't predestined all humans. We are all so completely sinful that none of us deserve his grace and we more than deserve the wrath of the Holy God.

 

It's not unfair because nobody gets injustice. Everyone deserves his wrath. God is more than justified in condemning every single human being that has ever or will ever live. However, he chooses to pour out his mercy on some. What he never does is give someone what they do NOT deserve.

 

We evangelize and pray because God instructed us to. "Pray then, like this" (Matthew 6) and "Therefore, go and make disciples" (Matthew 28). For reasons I don't fully comprehend, prayer and evangelism are part of God's plan. We can't make anyone come to Christ, and we can't use prayer to make God change his mind, but they are still used. I know that when I do these things I am changed as my thoughts are directed more towards Christ.

 

I hope this makes sense--I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

 

 

JudoMom, great post. This is pretty much what I was going to say.

[Lovedtodeath]

1. Rom 8:21-30

 

2. Rom 9:11-13

 

3. Rom 9:15-16

 

4. Rom 9:21

 

:)

Thanks. I was actually thinking of this one: (John 6:44) "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day."

 

Here is my understanding of the above:

 

1. Romans 8:29, 30 must be a class, and not the individuals making up the class. Just as the Israelites as a group were God's people, but not every individual within that group was, as we can see by many of them facing his wrath at their unfaithfulness. We use scripture to interpret scripture, and they must harmonize. For Romans 8:29, 30 harmonizes with all of the scriptures if it is referring to a group and not individuals. Matthew 22:14 says that "Many are called but few are chosen."

 

If one’s being in the book of life means he is predestinated to salvation, then it can be shown that such predestination fails, and if it fails the doctrine’s very foundation crumbles. To those who prove faithful Jesus promises: “I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life.†(Rev. 3:5, NW) Which indicates names could be blotted out. If such a blotting out were impossible, Jesus’ promise would be meaningless. That it is possible Psalm 69:28 (AT) shows: “May they be blotted out from the book of life.†That it is Jehovah’s purpose to blot out those becoming unfaithful was shown when Israel worshiped the golden calf at Sinai. After asking God to forgive Israel Moses said: “But if not, pray blot me out of thy book.†Jehovah’s reply was: “Whoever sins against me, him only I blot out of my book.â€â€”Ex. 32:32, 33, AT.

 

2. Jacob and Esau: While making the selection before birth, before either had done good or bad, Jehovah showed that the choosing of those sharing in the Abrahamic promise was not dependent upon works. This was a contrast with the Law covenant, which caused the Jews to stress works. It highlighted undeserved kindness or grace, and the spirit. It left the selection entirely up to the one who calls candidates for these blessings, namely, Jehovah God. His free choice in this matter, completely unbound by customs or usual procedures according to men’s expectations, such as giving the birthright to first-born sons, is further emphasized by his selection of the younger son instead of the older one. So Jehovah was clarifying his purpose concerning his covenant, not indulging in a whim, by acting as he did in the case of Esau and Jacob.—Gen. 25:23-26; 27:29, 37; 28:13, 14; Rom. 9:11, NW.

 

Jehovah’s decision to give the birthright to Jacob or his allowing the older Esau to be a temporary slave to the younger one did not predestinate Esau to eternal condemnation, as predestinarians must contend. Being in a subservient position did not prohibit Esau from gaining God’s approval. Did not some of the Canaanites, even though under an inspired curse to serve the descendants of Shem, attach themselves to Israel and gain Jehovah’s blessing? (Gen. 9:25-27; Josh. 9:27) And as for the birthright, receiving it is not a requirement for salvation. If so, then only first-born sons would be saved and all others automatically condemned. And what about Jehovah’s statement: “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau� (Mal. 1:2, 3; Rom. 9:13, NW) In the Scriptures, hated is a very different meaning than that which we use today. It means "love less". “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple.†(Luke 14:26) see also Genesis 29:30-32

 

3. This is once again, in context, showing the contrast between the beliefs of the Jews and the Christian understanding of Mercy. We can do nothing to deserve God's Mercy. It is a free gift.

 

Paul said: “Do you not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may attain it.†(1 Corinthians 9:24) “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.â€â€”Heb. 3:14, AV.

 

4. It seems to me that this scripture if read in context seems to be making the point that God has the right to do whatever he wants with us, but is not necessarily saying that is what he does do. That the individual himself can, by his own course in harmony with God’s will, make himself into a “vessel for an honorable use†is specifically stated at 2 Timothy 2:20-22 (NW): “Now in a large house there are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honorable purpose but others for a purpose lacking honor. If, therefore, anyone keeps clear of the latter ones, he will be a vessel for an honorable purpose, sanctified, useful to his owner, prepared for every good work. So, flee from the desires incidental to youth, but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, along with those who call upon the Lord out of a clean heart.â€

 

“With a love to time indefinite I have loved you. That is why I have drawn you with loving-kindness.â€â€”Jeremiah 31:3.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Everyone can choose God. Everyone is free to choose God. God does not stop anyone from choosing him.

 

However, because humans are utterly sinful, no one will choose him.

 

This is where God's grace comes in. In his goodness, he chose to change the desires of some and therefore they will choose him.

 

The real mystery is that God would predestine any humans, not that God hasn't predestined all humans. We are all so completely sinful that none of us deserve his grace and we more than deserve the wrath of the Holy God.

 

It's not unfair because nobody gets injustice. Everyone deserves his wrath. God is more than justified in condemning every single human being that has ever or will ever live. However, he chooses to pour out his mercy on some. What he never does is give someone what they do NOT deserve.

 

We evangelize and pray because God instructed us to. "Pray then, like this" (Matthew 6) and "Therefore, go and make disciples" (Matthew 28). For reasons I don't fully comprehend, prayer and evangelism are part of God's plan. We can't make anyone come to Christ, and we can't use prayer to make God change his mind, but they are still used. I know that when I do these things I am changed as my thoughts are directed more towards Christ.

 

I hope this makes sense--I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

This is what my pastor teaches.

[JadeOrchidSong]

We could, but we also know the verses that tell man to choose. Choose God, Jesus, choose life, choose what is good, right, etc. So, while I think God predestines some people and events in history, I still believe that free will has a part for individual salvation. This also leads to another issue, that of whether or not God micromanages minute details of our lives (we like to give him credit when He helps us find our keys, but He's hands-off when crap hits the fan...LOL). But I digress. :D

 

It's not totally satisfying for me, but I can accept the "it's both" answer to this most of the time. However, for non-believers, I think this can be a HUGE hurdle. Skeptics will say that this IS an inconsistency in the Bible and they would be right from their perspective--maybe just plain right. It's not satisfying for *them* to have Christians label things a mystery, even if it is. So, I think some of my frustration with the topic is looking at it from the outside-in, kwim? I don't like thinking that God's Word itself, which we need to trust, could be a turn off to searching people. I know that it's not that simple, I'm just sharing my thoughts on the whole thing. Thanks for listening! LOL

:iagree:I feel the same way.

[milovany]

The real mystery is that God would predestine any humans, not that God hasn't predestined all humans. We are all so completely sinful that none of us deserve his grace and we more than deserve the wrath of the Holy God.

If this is a foundation of reformed belief, it seems pretty shaky from the get-go. God loved His created man and woman before they sinned. He created them in His image (which, in addition to many other things, means with a free will), and He loved His creation. God continued to love Adam and Eve as they sinned, and He loved them after they sinned. He loved me before I sinned, while I sinned and after I sinned*. In His mercy He provided everyone a way to be healed from the death that our sin caused. The only caveat is that I have to come to Him in the way He prescribes, by choice.

 

I'm not sure what the reformed tradition does with the parable of the Prodigal Son but it must undergo some pretty interesting interpretation! The father of the son shows NO wrath toward his son when his son chooses to come to him. God is LOVE -- not God is wrath. Mercy is an outgrowth of love, not wrath.

*In Orthodoxy we do not believe in original sin (article)

Edited March 21, 2011 by milovaný

[Xuzi]

If this is a foundation of reformed belief, it seems pretty shaky from the get-go. God loved His created man and woman before they sinned. He created them in His image (which, in addition to many other things, means with a free will), and He loved His creation. God continued to love Adam and Eve as they sinned, and He loved them after they sinned. He loved me before I sinned, while I sinned and after I sinned*. In His mercy He provided everyone a way to be healed from the death that our sin caused. The only caveat is that I have to come to Him in the way He prescribes, by choice.

 

I'm not sure what the reformed tradition does with the parable of the Prodigal Son but it must undergo some pretty interesting interpretation! The father of the son shows NO wrath toward his son when his son chooses to come to him. God is LOVE -- not God is wrath. Mercy is an outgrowth of love, not wrath.

 

*In Orthodoxy we do not believe in original sin (article)

This pretty much describes LDS belief as well (although we call the Fall of Adam and Eve a Transgression, rather than a Sin, since we believe the Fall was a part of the Plan from the beginning, and meant to happen). God loves ALL His children, whether they ever choose to believe in Him or not. I think of the painting of Christ knocking at the door. There's no handle on His side. Only WE can let Him in. He won't force Himself in where He's not wanted, but He'll keep on knocking.

[tntgoodwin]

If this is a foundation of reformed belief, it seems pretty shaky from the get-go. God loved His created man and woman before they sinned. He created them in His image (which, in addition to many other things, means with a free will), and He loved His creation. God continued to love Adam and Eve as they sinned, and He loved them after they sinned. He loved me before I sinned, while I sinned and after I sinned*. In His mercy He provided everyone a way to be healed from the death that our sin caused. The only caveat is that I have to come to Him in the way He prescribes, by choice.

 

I'm not sure what the reformed tradition does with the parable of the Prodigal Son but it must undergo some pretty interesting interpretation! The father of the son shows NO wrath toward his son when his son chooses to come to him. God is LOVE -- not God is wrath. Mercy is an outgrowth of love, not wrath.

 

*In Orthodoxy we do not believe in original sin (article)

 

Of course mercy is an outgrowth of love. But there would be no need of mercy if wrath didn't exist...

[arghmatey]

HIPPO, but interested.

 

There was an article in the NYTimes about free will Tuesday.

[milovany]

Of course mercy is an outgrowth of love. But there would be no need of mercy if wrath didn't exist...

 

It depends how you define "mercy" I suppose. I used to think of it as a sort of reactionary, "Don't hit me, God!" when I did something wrong. In this case, mercy would be as you describe -- God not "hitting me" even though I "deserved" it. Now I'm seeing that it's more what God DOES do (giving me everything I need for salvation), not what He doesn't do. This mercy (the mercy for salvation), He has on all. If some choose not to accept it, then they may face God's wrath. But the starting point isn't wrath, the starting point is love.

 

Fr. Thomas Hopko has said, "He doesn’t throw the book at anybody, except those who want the book to be thrown at them. If you want the book to be thrown at you, He’ll throw the book at you. If you want His wrath to be upon you, it will be upon you. But if you want His mercy, then that mercy will be upon you." There's absolutely NO wrath shown to the prodigal son. The Father only shows love and compassion toward him. And the father in this story also showed love and compassion to the other son as well, not wrath. He has mercy for all who want it.

 

<Shrugs> But feel free to make wrath the starting point if you'd like. Just don't be surprised if I quote St. Gregory the Theologian: "Fie upon the outrage!" ;)

Edited March 23, 2011 by milovaný

[tntgoodwin]

The way I see it is that we ALL deserve wrath, but mercy and love is shown when God chooses to spare some.

Edited March 23, 2011 by tntgoodwin
clarification, grammar

[Chelli]

I hesitate to ever get involved in posts about religious doctrine. That being said the OP seems to seriously be questioning Calvinism, so here is my short as possible answer.

 

The people are not predestined, the plan for salvation was (Jesus' death on the cross). Others who have posted in this thread have talked about God giving everyone a choice and they are exactly right. True Calvinism, as Calvin would have taught it, was that before the beginning of time God chose who would be the elect (saved) and who would be d***ed (unsaved); humans had no choice. God had already decided. From Calvin's teaching (and different takes on it) you get a lot of doctrines that are taught by different Protestant churches and denominations. Predestination (as defined by Calvin) has within it the idea that God has already decided who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Humans can do nothing to change that. The problem with that is that there are numerous other scriptures, as others have pointed out, that refute that. People can choose to walk away from God and go from a saved condition to an unsaved one. God did not create humans to be robots.

 

However, God did know who would choose to be saved before time began and who would choose not to be saved. This does not mean that He made that choice for them. For example, if I see my dd walking across the room, not looking where she is going and I tell her that she is going to run into the wall. She now has the choice to look where she is going or not. If she runs into the wall, it is because she chose not to look. I did not make her not look or purposefully put the wall in her path. But I knew what would happen if she didn't look. God has given all mankind the choice to "run into the wall" or look and go around it. The Bible is His warning letter saying, "Look out there is a wall coming up!" Some people choose to listen to His warning, and some don't, but God does not influence their choice in any way. He does already know, though, the people that will choose to heed His warning and those that will not.

Foreknowledge of something is not predestination of it.

 

Basically, the problem comes about in the OP's original question because the way that Calvin defined predestination (people being chosen) is not the way that God defined predestination (the plan to save the world being chosen). My preacher man dh can give you all the technical Greek terms straight from the Koine Greek version of the New Testament since he reads Greek (show off!). If you are intersted in learning more, I can get him involved with all of his knowledge of the original language (which is usually very helpful in determining what was the intent of the original writing). So feel free to PM me.

 

Praying for your seeking heart :grouphug:

[Slartibartfast]

I hesitate to ever get involved in posts about religious doctrine. That being said the OP seems to seriously be questioning Calvinism, so here is my short as possible answer.

 

The people are not predestined, the plan for salvation was (Jesus' death on the cross). Others who have posted in this thread have talked about God giving everyone a choice and they are exactly right. True Calvinism, as Calvin would have taught it, was that before the beginning of time God chose who would be the elect (saved) and who would be d***ed (unsaved); humans had no choice. God had already decided. From Calvin's teaching (and different takes on it) you get a lot of doctrines that are taught by different Protestant churches and denominations. Predestination (as defined by Calvin) has within it the idea that God has already decided who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Humans can do nothing to change that. The problem with that is that there are numerous other scriptures, as others have pointed out, that refute that. People can choose to walk away from God and go from a saved condition to an unsaved one. God did not create humans to be robots.

 

However, God did know who would choose to be saved before time began and who would choose not to be saved. This does not mean that He made that choice for them. For example, if I see my dd walking across the room, not looking where she is going and I tell her that she is going to run into the wall. She now has the choice to look where she is going or not. If she runs into the wall, it is because she chose not to look. I did not make her not look or purposefully put the wall in her path. But I knew what would happen if she didn't look. God has given all mankind the choice to "run into the wall" or look and go around it. The Bible is His warning letter saying, "Look out there is a wall coming up!" Some people choose to listen to His warning, and some don't, but God does not influence their choice in any way. He does already know, though, the people that will choose to heed His warning and those that will not.

Foreknowledge of something is not predestination of it.

 

 

 

I agree. I do not believe in predestination

 

It is more of an important issue to me than things other people debate like creation or evolution.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Sis

[Lovedtodeath]

“Beginning” is used in a relative sense at Genesis 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 2:7, 13. This can affect our understanding of other scriptures.

 

Also at Luke 11:50, 51, Jesus parallels “the founding of the world” with the time of Abel. Abel is the first human who continued to have God’s favor throughout his life. So it could have been after the rebellion in Eden but before the conception of Abel that God formed his purpose to produce a “seed” through which deliverance would be provided. [Gen. 3:15]

[RobinF]

Personally, I believe that we all have free will and that God expects us to make our own choices. However, he knows us so well, so perfectly, so completely that he already knows what choices we will make. And he designs our path around those choices.

 

I love this quote and may borrow it.

 

:iagree: This. God knows the end from the beginning (omniscience) and saw before the world was formed who would and who would NOT believe on Christ. He saw the choice they made with their own free will, before they ever existed. Based on that foreknowledge, He chose them and His grace provides for them. God is not willing that any should perish. However, those who would NOT believe perish as a result of that choice, their own free will decision. (which of course God saw in the beginning before the world was formed).

 

:iagree:

 

If this is a foundation of reformed belief, it seems pretty shaky from the get-go. God loved His created man and woman before they sinned. He created them in His image (which, in addition to many other things, means with a free will), and He loved His creation. God continued to love Adam and Eve as they sinned, and He loved them after they sinned. He loved me before I sinned, while I sinned and after I sinned*. In His mercy He provided everyone a way to be healed from the death that our sin caused. The only caveat is that I have to come to Him in the way He prescribes, by choice. [/i]

 

:iagree:

 

I hesitate to ever get involved in posts about religious doctrine. That being said the OP seems to seriously be questioning Calvinism, so here is my short as possible answer.

 

The people are not predestined, the plan for salvation was (Jesus' death on the cross). Others who have posted in this thread have talked about God giving everyone a choice and they are exactly right. True Calvinism, as Calvin would have taught it, was that before the beginning of time God chose who would be the elect (saved) and who would be d***ed (unsaved); humans had no choice. God had already decided. From Calvin's teaching (and different takes on it) you get a lot of doctrines that are taught by different Protestant churches and denominations. Predestination (as defined by Calvin) has within it the idea that God has already decided who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Humans can do nothing to change that. The problem with that is that there are numerous other scriptures, as others have pointed out, that refute that. People can choose to walk away from God and go from a saved condition to an unsaved one. God did not create humans to be robots.

 

However, God did know who would choose to be saved before time began and who would choose not to be saved. This does not mean that He made that choice for them. For example, if I see my dd walking across the room, not looking where she is going and I tell her that she is going to run into the wall. She now has the choice to look where she is going or not. If she runs into the wall, it is because she chose not to look. I did not make her not look or purposefully put the wall in her path. But I knew what would happen if she didn't look. God has given all mankind the choice to "run into the wall" or look and go around it. The Bible is His warning letter saying, "Look out there is a wall coming up!" Some people choose to listen to His warning, and some don't, but God does not influence their choice in any way. He does already know, though, the people that will choose to heed His warning and those that will not.

Foreknowledge of something is not predestination of it.

 

Basically, the problem comes about in the OP's original question because the way that Calvin defined predestination (people being chosen) is not the way that God defined predestination (the plan to save the world being chosen). My preacher man dh can give you all the technical Greek terms straight from the Koine Greek version of the New Testament since he reads Greek (show off!). If you are intersted in learning more, I can get him involved with all of his knowledge of the original language (which is usually very helpful in determining what was the intent of the original writing). So feel free to PM me.

 

Praying for your seeking heart :grouphug:

 

Most of the issues around Calvanism can be examined in the light of "corporate or individual". If you look at what the Bible teaches about predestination in a corporate since then it can be reconciled but if you read it in an individual sense then it comes into conflict with other scripture.

[Lovedtodeath]

I disagree. I think that if the plan for salvation was predestined before the fall then this contradicts many scriptures that tell us how God runs things. Setting Adam and Eve and thus all humankind up for failure is not something that my God whose justice is perfect would do and I don't think that it is a point that can be proven biblically.

[Heather in Neverland]

Something I read yesterday:

 

Question #1- Are you saved?

my answer- yes

 

Questions #2- Who saved you?

my answer- God

 

Questions #3- Did he do it on purpose or was it an accident?

my answer- he saved me on purpose

 

That is election... God saves some people and he does it on purpose. :D

 

I thought that was pretty interesting.

[Lovedtodeath]

God does not wish any to be destroyed. 1 Timothy 2:3;4; Ezekiel 33:11

 

So does he destroy people on purpose? Yes and no. He is forced to by his own righteous standards and sense of justice. For if no one evil is destroyed what good is redemption for the faithful?

 

Can they ever agree? no.

Right. Edited March 23, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[justamouse]

Predestination is about fault. It is centered in punishment-it's punitive.

 

The Catholic (and EO, I believe) doctrine is that God called us into covenant. Christ doesn't take our salvation as a moment of exchange-we admit we're wrong, he washes out sins away--to the Catholic it's a moment of covenant. We are brought into the family of God.

 

When we take communion, we are renewing, remembering, and reaffirming our covenant with him. Which is why communion is the center of the more liturgical churches. We are taking His Body and Blood, we are giving him our lives. It's an exchange of love.

 

Can they ever agree? no. But we can still love each other as believers.

[Xuzi]

Predestination is about fault. It is centered in punishment-it's punitive.

 

The Catholic (and EO, I believe) doctrine is that God called us into covenant. Christ doesn't take our salvation as a moment of exchange-we admit we're wrong, he washes out sins away--to the Catholic it's a moment of covenant. We are brought into the family of God.

 

When we take communion, we are renewing, remembering, and reaffirming our covenant with him. Which is why communion is the center of the more liturgical churches. We are taking His Body and Blood, we are giving him our lives. It's an exchange of love.

 

Can they ever agree? no. But we can still love each other as believers.

Again, a similarity with LDS. :lol: We believe that Baptism is an entering into a Covenant to take His Name (Jesus Christ) upon ourselves, and Confirmation is when we recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is the right to have His Presencee with us always, to help guide us, warn us (of temptation or danger), and sanctify us. The Sacrament (what we call Communion) is a renewing of that Covenant, re-witnessing that we have taken His Name upon us, that we will always remember Him, and keep the commandments that He has given us. Although we don't believe the bread and water (we don't use wine) turn literally into his body and blood, we do view it as a symbolic "taking in" of His Atonement, an interalization of the covenant, and making Him a part of us. It's also a renewal of our Baptismal covenant in that we are re-washed of our sins. We're to take it with a repentant heart, knowing that we aren't perfect and that it is only through Him that our scarlet sins are made white as snow, which will eventually allow us back into the presense of the Father.

 

ETA: LDS also take the Sacrament weekly, and it's done at the beginning of the meeting (after a couple hymns), and is considered the most sacred part of our Sunday services. We're strongly encouraged, if for some reason we can't stay for a whole meeting, to at least come for the Sacrament. I've seen a few LDS police officers time their breaks while on patrol to coincide with the passing of the Sacrament, and then go back on duty.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Xuzi

[justamouse]

Again, a similarity with LDS. :lol: We believe that Baptism is an entering into a Covenant to take His Name (Jesus Christ) upon ourselves, and Confirmation is when we recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is the right to have His Presencee with us always, to help guide us, warn us (of temptation or danger), and sanctify us. The Sacrament (what we call Communion) is a renewing of that Covenant, re-witnessing that we have taken His Name upon us, that we will always remember Him, and keep the commandments that He has given us. Although we don't believe the bread and water (we don't use wine) turn literally into his body and blood, we do view it as a symbolic "taking in" of His Atonement, an interalization of the covenant, and making Him a part of us. It's also a renewal of our Baptismal covenant in that we are re-washed of our sins. We're to take it with a repentant heart, knowing that we aren't perfect and that it is only through Him that our scarlet sins are made white as snow, which will eventually allow us back into the presense of the Father.

 

ETA: LDS also take the Sacrament weekly, and it's done at the beginning of the meeting (after a couple hymns), and is considered the most sacred part of our Sunday services. We're strongly encouraged, if for some reason we can't stay for a whole meeting, to at least come for the Sacrament. I've seen a few LDS police officers time their breaks while on patrol to coincide with the passing of the Sacrament, and then go back on duty.

 

That is beautiful. Very much aligns with RCC (as I know it at this time). Yes, also with the repentance being a major point before communion.

[justamouse]

God does not wish any to be destroyed. 1 Timothy 2:3;4; Ezekiel 33:11

 

So does he destroy people on purpose? Yes and no. He is forced to by his own righteous standards and sense of justice. For if no one evil is destroyed what good is redemption for the faithful?

 

 

 

See, now I would say that it is Free Will that forces US to be apart from God, not God's choice, ours. God is the Father, we are the Prodigals. The Prodigal decided himself to come back home, Father opened His arms, waiting for His son to return.

 

Some sons choose to never come home.

[Lovedtodeath]

See, now I would say that it is Free Will that forces US to be apart from God, not God's choice, ours. God is the Father, we are the Prodigals. The Prodigal decided himself to come back home, Father opened His arms, waiting for His son to return.

 

Some sons choose to never come home.

Good explanation.

[just Jenny]

If anyone is interested, there is a sermon series that Pastor John MacArthur preached where he explains the five points associated with Calvinism. He calls them "The Doctrines of Grace".

 

http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Series/280_The-Doctrines-of-Grace

 

scroll to the bottom of the page, select the sermon you would like to hear and then you can listen to them for free (or read them for free) by clicking on the red links.

 

Jesus Christ came to SAVE sinners! Trust that God is good and His purposes are good. If you do not have this faith, ask for it, it is a gift of God.

 

He is good.

 

Religion says you must do good things to gain favor with God.

 

Jesus says, "There is no one righteous, not even one." This is the true message of the gospel: that Christ has done it all already! We just have to ask God for mercy and ask Him to save us. If you have no faith, just ask God for faith.

 

This is amazing. Amazing. Those the Lord has set free are free indeed!

 

This is not about some people being better than others, this is about One Being who is absolutely and only worthy of praise, who instead of just allowing all men to perish in their sins and rebellion (which would be just), came in love to purchase their freedom and take the punishment they deserve. I can't even fathom a love like this, but I am living proof that God does this for SINNERS.

[justamouse]

If anyone is interested, there is a sermon series that Pastor John MacArthur preached where he explains the five points associated with Calvinism. He calls them "The Doctrines of Grace".

 

http://www.gty.org/Shop/Audio+Series/280_The-Doctrines-of-Grace

 

scroll to the bottom of the page, select the sermon you would like to hear and then you can listen to them for free (or read them for free) by clicking on the red links.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is saying that Christ didn't come to save sinners. But Mr. McArthur bases his interpretation on Sola Scriptura, which isn't even in the bible.

 

Doctrine of Election Part 1

 

But we cannot be wrestling with these things intellectually as if there is going to be some answer in our reason. We must come to the Word of god and we must look at what the Scripture says to reveal the truth of this doctrine. We must not let this doctrine become the victim of our corrupted sinful minds and our self-centered and proud reasonings. And so, like every other biblical truth, we simply open the Bible and submit ourselves to what it says. And because it's painful doesn't change anything, hell is a very painful doctrine, that doesn't change anything. And while it may be hard for us to grasp this, it may be to our feeble and sin-stained minds, less than what we might think is fair, we set all of that aside and submit ourselves to the Word of God.

 

So here, he's basically saying that God made us so full of sin that we couldn't possibly understand it for ourselves and we need to look only at the written word of God. Sounds good? Right? I mean, that sounds fantastic.

 

But it forgets that for the first 200 years, there was a verbal and written tradition passed down and that those teachings and what he's saying is that those lessons, from Apostles no less, are wrong.

 

It also basis the interpretation on self alone. It "says' that the bible is interpreting the bible, but you, yourself, are interpreting what you think the bible is saying (or you are looking for a teacher who is interpreting what he interprets the bible is interpreting). Both of which is still using the self to interpret.

 

So, doesn't it come down to selfishness? "I think I can interpret what the bible itself is interpreting correctly."

[Lovedtodeath]

1 Timothy 3:16, 17 "All scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining and righteousness that the man of God may be fully competent and *completely equipped for *every good work."

Edited March 23, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[MamaSheep]

I disagree. I think that if the plan for salvation was predestined before the fall then this contradicts many scriptures that tell us how God runs things. Setting Adam and Eve and thus all humankind up for failure is not something that my God whose justice is perfect would do and I don't think that it is a point that can be proven biblically.

 

And yet, the Bible tells us specifically that Jesus was foreordained to be the Savior before the world was even created (1 Peter 1:18-20, emphasis is mine):

 

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

 

I agree with you, though, that God would not deliberately set people up for "failure". I also believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God would not set up a plan that could be foiled by something so simple as Adam and Eve making one simple choice. I don't think God makes mistakes, and I think a god whose plans could be monkey-wrenched by something as weak and pathetic as a human being would not be much of a god.

 

 

 

So here's where I'm at with all this at the moment:

1. Christ was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb to redeem us from before the foundation of the world (according to Peter in the Bible, and I think he would know) --> therefore, salvation was part of the ORIGINAL plan, not a back-up stop-gap plan God threw together at the last minute when the original plan went pear-shaped

2. God is not stupid, or frivolous in his thinking, he is omniscient --> therefore, God would have known in advance what would happen in the circumstances God chose to establish in the Garden

3. God is not weak or careless, he is omnipotent --> therefore, God COULD have arranged things differently had he wanted to do so.

4. God is loving and just. He would not, as you said, set people up for failure and then torment them when they failed; it is just not in his nature (and in my opinion such a being would by definition not be God) --> Therefore, what happened in the Garden, though it was a transgression, was not a "failure". It was God's plan working as intended.

My conclusion from all this is that both the Fall and the Atonement were part of the original plan established by God. I think God wanted us to come to Earth under circumstances in which we would be enabled to know good from evil, make our own choices, and develop the kind of wisdom that comes only from experience. But I don't think God would create flawed, "sinful" beings and give them no choice in the matter. That would not be just. I think He would create perfect beings with the potential to change, if they chose to do so, and then offer them the opportunity to choose. They could choose a state of pleasant, but ignorant and immature, immortality forever in a garden where they would be cared for and never know pain or grief or suffering (or pleasure or joy or the deep love that comes through sacrifice either, because remember they didn't know "good" any more than they knew "evil")--OR--they could choose death, and all that came with that, which includes knowledge of both good and evil, and which ALSO INCLUDES the predestined plan for salvation in which a "lamb of God" was foreordained before the foundation of the world (before the Garden was ever created) to be a redeeming sacrifice for all mankind, so that those who chose to do so could recieve not merely ignorant, immature immortality, but the fullness of Eternal Life, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

 

It was a Fall, but I do not think that it was a failure.

 

 

ETA: I got to thinking I should have added that with this perspective it seems to me that free will and the ability to choose is a key principle. I don't think we get to choose everything. Obviously some things, like the cirucumstances of our birth and things other people choose to do to us are beyond our control. A lot of this is a result of the Fall, and we live wth the repercussions of that choice that Adam and Eve made not just for themselves, but for all their descendants (I do not believe we carry any "guilt" from that choice). We are mortal beings living in a fallen world learning to really know good and evil. But we do get to choose how we react to those circumstances. We can be broken by them, or we can turn to God and be healed and strengthened and made into more than we were to begin with.

Edited March 23, 2011 by MamaSheep

[Xuzi]

And yet, the Bible tells us specifically that Jesus was foreordained to be the Savior before the world was even created (1 Peter 1:18-20, emphasis is mine):

 

 

 

I agree with you, though, that God would not deliberately set people up for "failure". I also believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God would not set up a plan that could be foiled by something so simple as Adam and Eve making one simple choice. I don't think God makes mistakes, and I think a god whose plans could be monkey-wrenched by something as weak and pathetic as a human being would not be much of a god.

 

 

 

So here's where I'm at with all this at the moment:

1. Christ was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb to redeem us from before the foundation of the world (according to Peter in the Bible, and I think he would know) --> therefore, salvation was part of the ORIGINAL plan, not a back-up stop-gap plan God threw together at the last minute when the original plan went pear-shaped

2. God is not stupid, or frivolous in his thinking, he is omniscient --> therefore, God would have known in advance what would happen in the circumstances God chose to establish in the Garden

3. God is not weak or careless, he is omnipotent --> therefore, God COULD have arranged things differently had he wanted to do so.

4. God is loving and just. He would not, as you said, set people up for failure and then torment them when they failed; it is just not in his nature (and in my opinion such a being would by definition not be God) --> Therefore, what happened in the Garden, though it was a transgression, was not a "failure". It was God's plan working as intended.

My conclusion from all this is that both the Fall and the Atonement were part of the original plan established by God. I think God wanted us to come to Earth under circumstances in which we would be enabled to know good from evil, make our own choices, and develop the kind of wisdom that comes only from experience. But I don't think God would create flawed, "sinful" beings and give them no choice in the matter. That would not be just. I think He would create perfect beings with the potential to change, if they chose to do so, and then offer them the opportunity to choose. They could choose a state of pleasant, but ignorant and immature, immortality forever in a garden where they would be cared for and never know pain or grief or suffering (or pleasure or joy or the deep love that comes through sacrifice either, because remember they didn't know "good" any more than they knew "evil")--OR--they could choose death, and all that came with that, which includes knowledge of both good and evil, and which ALSO INCLUDES the predestined plan for salvation in which a "lamb of God" was foreordained before the foundation of the world (before the Garden was ever created) to be a redeeming sacrifice for all mankind, so that those who chose to do so could recieve not merely ignorant, immature immortality, but the fullness of Eternal Life, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

 

It was a Fall, but I do not think that it was a failure.

I love it when you post. :001_wub:

[JadeOrchidSong]

I am even more confused after reading all the posts.

What I believe now is:

 

 

• God is good and God is love. (Otherwise what is the point of following and worshiping Him?)
  

 

 

 

• God is just. He does not let sin go unpunished.
  

 

 

 

• I am a sinner. Jesus died on the cross for my sin. I believe He is my savior and my sin is washed.
  
• I will be with God and Jesus when I die.
  

 

So that is what I believe. What got me where I am now? I don't know for sure. But I know God is love. That is enough for me.

[angela in ohio]

I am even more confused after reading all the posts.

What I believe now is:

 

 

• God is good and God is love. (Otherwise what is the point of following and worshiping Him?)

 

 

 

• God is just. He does not let sin go unpunished.

 

 

 

• I am a sinner. Jesus died on the cross for my sin. I believe He is my savior and my sin is washed.

• I will be with God and Jesus when I die.

 

So that is what I believe. What got me where I am now? I don't know for sure. But I know God is love. That is enough for me.

 

Your best bet is to get a book, from a qualified author, on each "side." It is difficult to get much from a thread here, and it ended up veering into a conversation about salvation at its most basic, not free will and predestination. I'm glad none of that swayed you. :001_smile:

 

Do you have a person in your church, a husband, a friend, etc. that you can discuss this with? I always think it's nice to start an ongoing conversation with someone IRL and then be able to discuss ongoing thoughts with him or her.

[MamaSheep]

I am even more confused after reading all the posts.

What I believe now is:

 

 

• God is good and God is love. (Otherwise what is the point of following and worshiping Him?)

 

 

• God is just. He does not let sin go unpunished.

 

 

• I am a sinner. Jesus died on the cross for my sin. I believe He is my savior and my sin is washed.

• I will be with God and Jesus when I die.

So that is what I believe. What got me where I am now? I don't know for sure. But I know God is love. That is enough for me.

 

And that is the core stuff, right there. :grouphug:

[MamaSheep]

I love it when you post. :001_wub:

:blushing: Thanks. You're very kind.

[Xuzi]

I am even more confused after reading all the posts.

What I believe now is:

 

 

• God is good and God is love. (Otherwise what is the point of following and worshiping Him?)

 

 

• God is just. He does not let sin go unpunished.

 

 

• I am a sinner. Jesus died on the cross for my sin. I believe He is my savior and my sin is washed.

• I will be with God and Jesus when I die.

So that is what I believe. What got me where I am now? I don't know for sure. But I know God is love. That is enough for me.

I agree with MamaSheep, this is the core stuff. Good luck on your spiritual journey. :grouphug:

[ScoutTN]

Depends on how you define "free will".

I believe that God's sovereignty and human responsibility do co-exist, but that human will (like the mind, body, heart and our whole world) is warped and limited by sin.

 

Good reads on this subject:

A. W. Pink The Sovereignty of God

J. I. Packer Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God

R.C. Sproul Chosen By God

 

For more scholarly and weighty reading:

Jonathan Edwards The Freedom of the Will

Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will

[Lovedtodeath]

Thank you Patty Joanna. I found these by looking for tradition in my index:

 

1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I commend YOU because in all things YOU have me in mind and YOU are holding fast the traditions just as I handed [them] on to YOU.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain YOUR hold on the traditions that YOU were taught, whether it was through a verbal message or through a letter of ours. 3:6 Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us.

 

But these verses were also written before they had the New Testament.

 

I was looking for a post about tradition in this thread and can't find it.

 

But basically I wonder if some of the things that were done before/within the first century were so important then why are they not in the Bible? Why are some of the later writings not in the Bible?

Edited March 24, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[dangermom]

Wonderful post, MamaSheep!

 

And aomom, I agree--you've got the core of it right there.

[dcurry]

Something I read yesterday:

 

Question #1- Are you saved?

my answer- yes

 

Questions #2- Who saved you?

my answer- God

 

Questions #3- Did he do it on purpose or was it an accident?

my answer- he saved me on purpose

 

That is election... God saves some people and he does it on purpose. :D

 

I thought that was pretty interesting.

 

I thought it interesting as well.

 

My thoughts on it:

 

If we were drowning in the ocean, and God was in the boat and came out and threw us a life preserver... I grabbed it and was pulled into the boat, but my friend didn't grab it.... THEN,

 

Am I Saved? Yes.

Who saved me? God.

Did He do it on purpose? Yes.

 

However... He threw a life preserver to my friend as well, but he is not saved.

[angela in ohio]

I thought it interesting as well.

 

My thoughts on it:

 

If we were drowning in the ocean, and God was in the boat and came out and threw us a life preserver... I grabbed it and was pulled into the boat, but my friend didn't grab it.... THEN,

 

Am I Saved? Yes.

Who saved me? God.

Did He do it on purpose? Yes.

 

However... He threw a life preserver to my friend as well, but he is not saved.

 

But we aren't drowning, we are dead in our sin (Eph 2:1, 5) If you throw a life preserver to a dead person, they can't choose whether to take it or not.

[JadeOrchidSong]

But we aren't drowning, we are dead in our sin (Eph 2:1, 5) If you throw a life preserver to a dead person, they can't choose whether to take it or not.

So then God is doing all the work while we are dead and have no ability to choose God (free will). Are we merely puppets? Puppets have no life and can't move on their own.

[angela in ohio]

So then God is doing all the work while we are dead and have no ability to choose God (free will). Are we merely puppets? Puppets have no life and can't move on their own.

 

No, because we don't stay dead. We have a new life in Christ. :001_smile:

[milovany]

No, because we don't stay dead. We have a new life in Christ. :001_smile:

 

But getting un-dead is something done to us in this belief system. We have no choice or say in the matter. And that's a very un-orthodox belief. Look at the parable of the prodigal son. The father didn't go find his son and make him come home. He waited at home until the son chose to return to him. And when he did, the father ran out to greet him in joy. There is NO wrath in this parable. None. Just a loving father delighted to have his son back home.

Edited March 25, 2011 by milovaný

[Caitilin]

I love it when you post. :001_wub:

 

Me too! Love hearing all which we have in common despite our differences.:grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

Thanks Amy. That is a lot to think about and it will be very difficult to get my mind around. I have always, always been taught that God purposed the whole world to be like that garden, forever. I really don't understand why he would tell them not to eat of the fruit if he wanted them to. But a lot of what you say makes sense. You seem to be annoyed with me. I am sorry. My purpose in these types of threads is to share what I know and also to learn more. I have been sick this week and I think it might be showing in my conversational skills.

 

My understanding thus far was that Jesus was foreordained after sin yet before any human children were conceived.

 

I am examining the word foundation as used in the Bible. 1 Peter 1:20 uses the Greek term καταβολὴν also used in Hebrews 4:3 and 11:11 "Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed." and Hebrews 9:24: "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

 

 

And yet, the Bible tells us specifically that Jesus was foreordained to be the Savior before the world was even created (1 Peter 1:18-20, emphasis is mine):

 

 

 

I agree with you, though, that God would not deliberately set people up for "failure". I also believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God would not set up a plan that could be foiled by something so simple as Adam and Eve making one simple choice. I don't think God makes mistakes, and I think a god whose plans could be monkey-wrenched by something as weak and pathetic as a human being would not be much of a god.

 

 

 

So here's where I'm at with all this at the moment:

 

1. Christ was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb to redeem us from before the foundation of the world (according to Peter in the Bible, and I think he would know) --> therefore, salvation was part of the ORIGINAL plan, not a back-up stop-gap plan God threw together at the last minute when the original plan went pear-shaped
   
2. God is not stupid, or frivolous in his thinking, he is omniscient --> therefore, God would have known in advance what would happen in the circumstances God chose to establish in the Garden
   
3. God is not weak or careless, he is omnipotent --> therefore, God COULD have arranged things differently had he wanted to do so.
   
4. God is loving and just. He would not, as you said, set people up for failure and then torment them when they failed; it is just not in his nature (and in my opinion such a being would by definition not be God) --> Therefore, what happened in the Garden, though it was a transgression, was not a "failure". It was God's plan working as intended.
   

 

My conclusion from all this is that both the Fall and the Atonement were part of the original plan established by God. I think God wanted us to come to Earth under circumstances in which we would be enabled to know good from evil, make our own choices, and develop the kind of wisdom that comes only from experience. But I don't think God would create flawed, "sinful" beings and give them no choice in the matter. That would not be just. I think He would create perfect beings with the potential to change, if they chose to do so, and then offer them the opportunity to choose. They could choose a state of pleasant, but ignorant and immature, immortality forever in a garden where they would be cared for and never know pain or grief or suffering (or pleasure or joy or the deep love that comes through sacrifice either, because remember they didn't know "good" any more than they knew "evil")--OR--they could choose death, and all that came with that, which includes knowledge of both good and evil, and which ALSO INCLUDES the predestined plan for salvation in which a "lamb of God" was foreordained before the foundation of the world (before the Garden was ever created) to be a redeeming sacrifice for all mankind, so that those who chose to do so could recieve not merely ignorant, immature immortality, but the fullness of Eternal Life, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

 

It was a Fall, but I do not think that it was a failure.

 

 

ETA: I got to thinking I should have added that with this perspective it seems to me that free will and the ability to choose is a key principle. I don't think we get to choose everything. Obviously some things, like the cirucumstances of our birth and things other people choose to do to us are beyond our control. A lot of this is a result of the Fall, and we live wth the repercussions of that choice that Adam and Eve made not just for themselves, but for all their descendants (I do not believe we carry any "guilt" from that choice). We are mortal beings living in a fallen world learning to really know good and evil. But we do get to choose how we react to those circumstances. We can be broken by them, or we can turn to God and be healed and strengthened and made into more than we were to begin with.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't usually engage in "dueling Bible verses"

That phrase really, really saddens me. I should go get some rest and maybe I should stick to discussing the bible with the pastors that have forums and facebook pages set up for that purpose.