pqr Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Everyone does, I hope, realize that the “Spanish” spoken in Mexico is looked upon by Spaniards as being, at best a bastardized dialect. If one is learning it in order to be better able to communicate with immigrants, legal and otherwise, so be it but do not make the mistake of going to Europe, claiming to speak Spanish and then speaking the language spoken by the average Mexican. They may understand you but they will neither respect nor particularly appreciate you. The same is said by the French of individuals who speak "Canadian French" (Quebecois)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 This is because language instruction in American schools is generally ineffective. Two years of a language in high school is generally not going to produce a fluent speaker. If Americans wanted bilingual kids, we'd start teaching languages earlier and more intensively. Tara Yes, I realize that 2 years of a language is not enough to make one fluent, but I learned so little after taking what I did, I doubt I would have been fluent if I had continued for the remainder of high school either. There was someone who recently mentioned taking a very high level of French through college and still could barely speak the language. The other thing that I mentioned is that I hear people again and again on this board frustrated because they cannot attain fluency with their children and there are some pretty motivated people on this board. That is kind of discouraging. It seems that unless I can afford to hire a Spanish-speaking nanny, or pack my kids off to Mexico at some point, fluency is unlikely, no matter how many years we work at it. Now, if there are lots of people out there who have been successful without the nanny or the trip to Mexico, I'd love to hear about it. I'd find it encouraging. But the last poll that I saw on this board had some pretty dismal results. I am teaching my kids Spanish, but I'm mostly doing it at this point because they are finding the program we are using so enjoyable and in the hopes that it will make it easier for my son (who has language-based lds) to meet his high school requirements for a foreign language by exposing him to some of it now. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Now, if there are lots of people out there who have been successful without the nanny or the trip to Mexico, I'd love to hear about it. I'd find it encouraging. But the last poll that I saw on this board had some pretty dismal results. I am not there yet with my kids' third language (they are fluent in German, but that is because we raise them bilingually), but I achieved pretty good fluency in both English and Russian solely from attending school. In English, we had no native speakers for teachers, no audio sources or movies and no opportunities to visit an English speaking country (I grew up in communist East Germany). I just had teachers who had learned English as a foreign language herself, textbooks, and eight years of rigorous instruction, several hours a week. During high school, I began to read books in English, that helped a lot. If it was possible for me back then to achieve fluency without ever hearing a native speaker, audio CDs, movies, or computer resources, it must be possible to achieve it in a homeschool when all those resources are available (many of them for free). But it requires a commitment for many years, not just two or four, of several weekly hours. I find it hard to homeschool French (DD's foreign language), but for us it really is a simple question of discipline: we are not making rapid progress because we have not been putting in enough time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Everyone does, I hope, realize that the “Spanish†spoken in Mexico is looked upon by Spaniards as being, at best a bastardized dialect. If one is learning it in order to be better able to communicate with immigrants, legal and otherwise, so be it but do not make the mistake of going to Europe, claiming to speak Spanish and then speaking the language spoken by the average Mexican. They may understand you but they will neither respect nor particularly appreciate you. The same is said by the French of individuals who speak "Canadian French" (Quebecois)) So, I guess that a Latin American shouldn't bother to make the mistake of learning English the way we speak it in the U.S. and then going to England with a bastardized dialect and claiming to speak English. I know this may be true of some Spaniards, but I would say it is a gross generalization to suggest they all feel that way. It is also impossible to remove class from the subject. An educated Mexican from the upper-class would speak differently than an individual without access to education from a poor background--just as in every other country, Spanish-speaking or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 So, I guess that a Latin American shouldn't bother to make the mistake of learning English the way we speak it in the U.S. and then going to England with a bastardized dialect and claiming to speak English. I know this may be true of some Spaniards, but I would say it is a gross generalization to suggest they all feel that way. It is also impossible to remove class from the subject. An educated Mexican from the upper-class would speak differently than an individual without access to education from a poor background--just as in every other country, Spanish-speaking or not. Actually much of the rest of the world learns "British" English as they consider it the more proper form and they are still able to understand Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoMom Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Seriously? You win the myopic award today. Spanish is the official or de facto language in at least 20 countries. Can you count how many countries can say that about English? Hey, don't kill the messenger. I only stated the obvious. If you can tell me how the Chinese, Japanese, Russians, Germans, and Indians are rushing to learn the language of those 20 countries I'd be interested. But there is a reason they learn ENGLISH. Because knowing English is just more logical for their business interests, while Spanish is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) Seriously? You win the myopic award today. Spanish is the official or de facto language in at least 20 countries. Can you count how many countries can say that about English? You are kidding right? Lets see: Canada Dominica Fiji Gambia Ghana Grenada Guyana India Ireland Israel Jamaica Kenya Kiribati Lesotho Liberia Malawi Malta Marshall Islands Mauritius Micronesia Namibia Nauru New Zealand Nigeria Pakistan Palau Papua New Guinea Philippines Rwanda Saint Kitts and Nevis Saint Lucia Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Samoa Seychelles Sierra Leone Singapore Solomon Islands South Africa Swaziland Tanzania Tonga Trinidad and Tobago Tuvalu Uganda United Kingdom United States Vanuatu Zambia Zimbabwe Like I said...you are kidding right? This does not include large English speaking populations in Cyprus, China, Burma, Belize and other places. There are also dependencies and colonies such as the Falklands, Gibraltar, St Helena etc. Edited December 31, 2010 by pqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamee Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Learning ANY second language is a HUGE benefit and it is so interesting to me that America just doesn't seem to think it is all that necessary. My ahma went to school for exactly TWO years (when she was 6 and 7 years old). She cannot read or write. But she can speak 5 languages fluently. In my school EVERY SINGLE STUDENT who is NOT from the U.S. speaks more than one language. I even have kindergarten students that speak 2 and 3 languages. It has just always seemed arrogant to me that so many Americans see no value in a second language. :confused: :iagree:When I taught at an English school in Italy, all the kids spoke at least English and Italian--the Americans were taking Italian, the Italians, English from pre-school. We also had a large population of Turkish kids who would come in and by the end of their first year there were fairly fluent in Italian and English as well. I remember running across one second grader who was upset because she was going "home." All along I had just assumed she was American, nope Turkish. She spoke perfect English, no accent. My German cousin came to visit us after she graduated, she's fluent in three languages and also took Greek as her classical language. I believe she started English in first or second grade. My grandfather grew up bilingual (German and Polish) and was also fluent in English and knew some French. He taught himself both of those languages. I think the mistake that is made in the states is that second languages aren't taught early enough or often enough. And yes, two years of a language isn't going to get you very far. The school DS is in now has started Spanish in kindergarten and every child goes to a couple hours of Spanish a week. It's a start, but it's not really going to get them fluent as I think the goal is, especially in a school where the turn-over is as high as it is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deacongirl Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Actually much of the rest of the world learns "British" English as they consider it the more proper form and they are still able to understand Americans. Not really my point. My point is that this: "do not make the mistake of going to Europe, claiming to speak Spanish and then speaking the language spoken by the average Mexican. They may understand you but they will neither respect nor particularly appreciate you." reeks of elitism and while the poster may be simply reporting his impression of Spanish opinion, I find it unacceptable to just dismiss an entire nation of people as unworthy of respect for the way they speak--and I highly doubt that the majority of individuals in Spain today actually feel that way. It was certainly not my experience while traveling there with native Spanish speakers from Latin America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 So, I guess that a Latin American shouldn't bother to make the mistake of learning English the way we speak it in the U.S. and then going to England with a bastardized dialect and claiming to speak English. I know this may be true of some Spaniards, but I would say it is a gross generalization to suggest they all feel that way. It is also impossible to remove class from the subject. An educated Mexican from the upper-class would speak differently than an individual without access to education from a poor background--just as in every other country, Spanish-speaking or not. I never said don't bother. Incidentally just how many Spaniards do you know, almost every one that I know will, over a dinner, speak disdainfully of the "Spanish" spoken in the Americas....there is no gross generalization there. They will be polite to people from the Americas but that is not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoMom Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 You are kidding right? Lets see: Canada Dominica Fiji Gambia Ghana Grenada Guyana India Ireland Israel Jamaica Kenya Kiribati Lesotho Liberia Malawi Malta Marshall Islands Mauritius Micronesia Namibia Nauru New Zealand Nigeria Pakistan Palau Papua New Guinea Philippines Rwanda Saint Kitts and Nevis Saint Lucia Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Samoa Seychelles Sierra Leone Singapore Solomon Islands South Africa Swaziland Tanzania Tonga Trinidad and Tobago Tuvalu Uganda United Kingdom United States Vanuatu Zambia Zimbabwe Like I said...you are kidding right? This does not include large English speaking populations in Cyprus, China, Burma, Belize and other places. There are also dependencies and colonies such as the Falklands, Gibraltar, St Helena etc. You're awesome! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 So, I guess that a Latin American shouldn't bother to make the mistake of learning English the way we speak it in the U.S. and then going to England with a bastardized dialect and claiming to speak English. I know this may be true of some Spaniards, but I would say it is a gross generalization to suggest they all feel that way. It is also impossible to remove class from the subject. An educated Mexican from the upper-class would speak differently than an individual without access to education from a poor background--just as in every other country, Spanish-speaking or not. Actually much of the rest of the world learns "British" English as they consider it the more proper form and they are still able to understand Americans. Not really my point. My point is that this:"do not make the mistake of going to Europe, claiming to speak Spanish and then speaking the language spoken by the average Mexican. They may understand you but they will neither respect nor particularly appreciate you." reeks of elitism and while the poster may be simply reporting his impression of Spanish opinion, I find it unacceptable to just dismiss an entire nation of people as unworthy of respect for the way they speak--and I highly doubt that the majority of individuals in Spain today actually feel that way. It was certainly not my experience while traveling there with native Spanish speakers from Latin America. Well, I'm not sure your example makes your point as many in the rest of the world think of American English as the poor cousin of proper "Queen's" or British English. Foreigners always know when they are speaking to an American, our voices give it away and often their treatment based on the accent shows what they think of us. It might not be nice but it is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 IIncidentally just how many Spaniards do you know, almost every one that I know will, over a dinner, speak disdainfully of the "Spanish" spoken in the Americas....there is no gross generalization there. And the Latin Americans laugh themselves silly at the "lisp" that Spaniards have. Most languages with distinctive regional variations have the opinion that theirs is the "correct" one and there are opinions ranging from good-natured ribbing to elitism on all the other variations. I think the American's fondness for the British accent is quite the anomaly. My own Spanish accent is a bizarre mix of Spanish and Mexican (as I've spent time both places) - I've driven native Spanish speakers nutty trying to figure out where I'm from... no one's ever guessed American, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 I had no idea English was an official or defacto language in so many African countries. You forgot Australia and Belize, though. :D You are kidding right? Lets see: Canada Dominica Fiji Gambia Ghana Grenada Guyana India Ireland Israel Jamaica Kenya Kiribati Lesotho Liberia Malawi Malta Marshall Islands Mauritius Micronesia Namibia Nauru New Zealand Nigeria Pakistan Palau Papua New Guinea Philippines Rwanda Saint Kitts and Nevis Saint Lucia Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Samoa Seychelles Sierra Leone Singapore Solomon Islands South Africa Swaziland Tanzania Tonga Trinidad and Tobago Tuvalu Uganda United Kingdom United States Vanuatu Zambia Zimbabwe Like I said...you are kidding right? This does not include large English speaking populations in Cyprus, China, Burma, Belize and other places. There are also dependencies and colonies such as the Falklands, Gibraltar, St Helena etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Okay, I guess I was just under the impression that it was about so much more than poverty alone, like widespread corruption among the police, and a lack of good hospital care. Lisa It is, but those with money are not subjected to the same treatment as money equals power. Those with money can pay for good hospital care, those without get none. Someone who worked with me several years ago wired money to Mexico so that his mother could go to a hospital and then had to wire more so she could go to a better hospital. If he hadn't been able to do that, she would have died without much medical care at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) I had no idea English was an official or defacto language in so many African countries. You forgot Australia and Belize, though. :D I did have Belize (listed at the bottom) and we all know that the Aussies speak something, but is it English....mate? (That was a joke) Mea Culpa on forgetting Australia. Actually I also forgot a few others: Antigua and Barbuda Australia Bahamas Barbados Botswana Brunei Cameroon (though Cameroon also uses French) Maldives (while not the official language, it is the language of commerce and much tourism) Almost all the former African colonies use English as their official language and while some difficult may be encountered in remote areas English will normally do well enough in cities. The point was that one can not make any comparison between the usage of Spanish, on a global scale, and that of English and the poster who gave "the myopic award" was simply wrong. Edited December 31, 2010 by pqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamee Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Well, I'm not sure your example makes your point as many in the rest of the world think of American English as the poor cousin of proper "Queen's" or British English. Foreigners always know when they are speaking to an American, our voices give it away and often their treatment based on the accent shows what they think of us. It might not be nice but it is true. In my experience in foreign countries, we (Americans) don't speak "English" we speak "American." My Turkish students asked me to get them "American-Turkish" dictionaries when I had made a trip to the US.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 I had no idea English was an official or defacto language in so many African countries. You forgot Australia and Belize, though. :D Colonialism at its best.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 To answer the OP, no I don't agree that all US students should learn Spanish. I think that each state should choose a couple of languages (whatever makes sense for them) and then require students to study one of those languages all the way through school, K-12, as a real academic subject with a real teacher. In some ways, :iagree: with this as a default, but I think it would be nice to have an option of studying something else by correspondence in that time if the child or parents desire it. But on the other hand, perhaps what is needed is not a blanket law obliging everyone to learn a language, but the opportunity for those who do want to to have proper opportunity, and three periods a week of language (and which language that is changing every few years) isn't a proper opportunity. Making Spanish mandatory because people who speak Spanish are flooding into the country really doesn't sound like good sound advice to me. In fact it reeks of political correctness. I may not have a very firm grasp of American history, but I thought there was a large bunch of Spanish speaking persons already located in what is now US territory when the borders got drawn around them. So is this about political correctness and people flooding in? Or is this about recognising and working with a situation that has been there since the US formed? Rosie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 I may not have a very firm grasp of American history, but I thought there was a large bunch of Spanish speaking persons already located in what is now US territory when the borders got drawn around them. So is this about political correctness and people flooding in? Or is this about recognising and working with a situation that has been there since the US formed? Rosie I love you Rosie!:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 I may not have a very firm grasp of American history, but I thought there was a large bunch of Spanish speaking persons already located in what is now US territory when the borders got drawn around them. So is this about political correctness and people flooding in? Or is this about recognising and working with a situation that has been there since the US formed? Rosie I love you Rosie!:D That might be a defense of why those areas would have Spanish as a high priority option (although not the only option) for their students. It is not a defense for having Spanish be a mandatory language for a nation this large and diverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) ... Edited December 31, 2010 by Renee in FL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamee Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 I love you Rosie!:D :iagree:That was a great observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 That might be a defense of why those areas would have Spanish as a high priority option (although not the only option) for their students. It is not a defense for having Spanish be a mandatory language for a nation this large and diverse. Yes it is. But it is not a good enough defense to satisfy everyone who thinks about the issue, I'll grant you. I would suggest that even those here who aren't interested in mandatory Spanish would prefer good quality, mandatory Spanish instruction in public schools to the current situation where (as far as I know) virtually no one graduates from a public school proficient in any language. I have even less reason to be interested in Spanish than the average American, but I'd rather my kids graduate proficient in it than have them graduate with many hours of language class under their belt, and unable to speak more than a few formulaic sentences, which is what happens around here. I think mandatory Spanish, taught long enough that people graduate proficient, so their classes weren't a waste of time, is a better situation than currently exists. I do not think it is the best solution available for the teaching of language in either of our countries. As it happens, I was pondering on this today. In our state, we have a college of language that runs Saturday school classes in various places around the traps, and offers correspondence classes. This organisation was initially formed by the various community language groups banding together, and they work in partnership with the education department so their classes are an accredited course of study for school students. I wondered whether it wouldn't be best to increase the resources of such an institution and have languages administered by correspondence. A school could offer classes supervised by actual teachers of the language, and that would obviously provide a better situation for learners, but they could also run a supervised study hall type situation for students who are interested in something more obscure. This would allow students to keep with the same language even if they transfered schools. It wouldn't be as good as having a specialist teacher, but if the kids have self teaching material, even someone who doesn't know the language can play a useful supportive roles and organise the technology required to link the kids up for exams. I think more kids would be interested in learning languages if they had free reign to choose the language. Our state's School of Languages offers heaps of options: http://www.vsl.vic.edu.au/ (Bad luck about their crappy website. I don't think it has been improved since the site was first uploaded :lol:) Perhaps some of the smart alecs who choose something obscure just to be contrary would actually develop a real interest if the resources were there to treat it seriously. (Or maybe that would only happen in my optimistic imagination. :lol:) Rosie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Seriously? You win the myopic award today. Wow :iagree: You know what, you CAN live your whole life quite successfully never speaking anything but English. But this whole "America is the BEST...woo hoo...we're the biggest, baddest country around...we don't care about your culture or your language because ours is the only one that matters" attitude can only be described as myopic ...and maybe sad too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted December 31, 2010 Author Share Posted December 31, 2010 But this whole "America is the BEST...woo hoo...we're the biggest, baddest country around...we don't care about your culture or your language because ours is the only one that matters" attitude can only be described as myopic ...and maybe sad too. And with our fiscal situation, this sort of attitude may become rarer . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingiguana Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 I may not have a very firm grasp of American history, but I thought there was a large bunch of Spanish speaking persons already located in what is now US territory when the borders got drawn around them. So is this about political correctness and people flooding in? Or is this about recognising and working with a situation that has been there since the US formed? Rosie This is true, but in some parts of the country there are huge numbers of Spanish speakers who were not here even 10 years ago. Also, I suspect those people of Hispanic heritage who have been here for a number of generations are not speaking as much Spanish as the new immigrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Wow :iagree: You know what, you CAN live your whole life quite successfully never speaking anything but English. But this whole "America is the BEST...woo hoo...we're the biggest, baddest country around...we don't care about your culture or your language because ours is the only one that matters" attitude can only be described as myopic ...and maybe sad too. You missed the point the poster who elicited the rude and demonstrably false quote that you seem to agree with was speaking of the fact that Spanish is not that widely spread. The poster was correct, the quote you reference was false. The quote you reference argued that Spanish is more widely spread than English, that is demonstrably false. The truth is that with the exception of the US, Spanish is retreating. Travel to E Europe the language being studied there is English, (it is only in Romania that English is not the second language being studied by the greatest number, there it is French). Go to the Baltics or Scandanavia and English is so widely spoken that there is no issue. Go to Holland...English works just fine. Millions in China study English. If one does not adhere to the "America is the BEST...woo hoo...we're the biggest, baddest country around...we don't care about your culture or your language because ours is the only one that matters" attitude can only be described as myopic ...and maybe sad too" . then learn French or Chinese as that will enable you to comunicate with more people or with people in a wider area of the globe. It is myopic to argue that more countries speak Spanish than do English. It demonstrates a US centric view where simply because more in this nation appear to have Spansih as a primary or secondary language that it would hold for the globe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Yes it is. But it is not a good enough defense to satisfy everyone who thinks about the issue, I'll grant you. I would suggest that even those here who aren't interested in mandatory Spanish would prefer good quality, mandatory Spanish instruction in public schools to the current situation where (as far as I know) virtually no one graduates from a public school proficient in any language. I have even less reason to be interested in Spanish than the average American, but I'd rather my kids graduate proficient in it than have them graduate with many hours of language class under their belt, and unable to speak more than a few formulaic sentences, which is what happens around here. I think mandatory Spanish, taught long enough that people graduate proficient, so their classes weren't a waste of time, is a better situation than currently exists. I do not think it is the best solution available for the teaching of language in either of our countries. As it happens, I was pondering on this today. In our state, we have a college of language that runs Saturday school classes in various places around the traps, and offers correspondence classes. This organisation was initially formed by the various community language groups banding together, and they work in partnership with the education department so their classes are an accredited course of study for school students. I wondered whether it wouldn't be best to increase the resources of such an institution and have languages administered by correspondence. A school could offer classes supervised by actual teachers of the language, and that would obviously provide a better situation for learners, but they could also run a supervised study hall type situation for students who are interested in something more obscure. This would allow students to keep with the same language even if they transfered schools. It wouldn't be as good as having a specialist teacher, but if the kids have self teaching material, even someone who doesn't know the language can play a useful supportive roles and organise the technology required to link the kids up for exams. I think more kids would be interested in learning languages if they had free reign to choose the language. Our state's School of Languages offers heaps of options: http://www.vsl.vic.edu.au/ (Bad luck about their crappy website. I don't think it has been improved since the site was first uploaded :lol:) Perhaps some of the smart alecs who choose something obscure just to be contrary would actually develop a real interest if the resources were there to treat it seriously. (Or maybe that would only happen in my optimistic imagination. :lol:) Rosie You are correct-quality education in one language would be preferable to low quality education in a myriad of other languages. I'm just not convinced that Spanish is the correct choice in every state. A language needs to not only be part of a quality education but also be, at the end of that education, potentially useful. Spanish is not necessarily the most useful language in every job field or in every region. When I was a student in US public schools we were offered Spanish and French as our earliest language choices. Many of the students chose Spanish for its reputation for being easier (deserved or undeserved)-that is also a mindset that needs to be eliminated. Degree of ease is not a practical basis for choosing a foreign language. Furthermore, in the US English is our primary language and I resent the implication that all Americans should learn Spanish because we have an immigrant population who refuses to learn English. That is backwards thinking (which I why a few pages ago I argued that all students in the US need to master English as well-native and non-native speakers alike). Spanish is one of many possible useful languages in the US but it is not the only or primary useful language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 And with our fiscal situation, this sort of attitude may become rarer . . . "I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made." -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt . At the end of FDR's life he was busy making friends with Stalin and an enemy of Churchill. Hmmmm..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mejane Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) But this whole "America is the BEST...woo hoo...we're the biggest, baddest country around...we don't care about your culture or your language because ours is the only one that matters" attitude can only be described as myopic ...and maybe sad too. Stereotype much? Edited December 31, 2010 by Mejane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayle in Guatemala Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Also, going back to the article, why would more and more American retire in Latin America when the conditions are so horrific that people are willing to risk their lives on a daily basis to enter the U.S. illegally? That doesn't make any sense to me. Lisa Coming in a little late, but, I've been living in Latin America for 5 years now and conditions aren't truly horrific to be honest. They are tough at times for many, but, I've never met people more willing to make it work in my life--and they do it with a great attitude! Many people are willing to risk their lives to go the the US because they know that they can make money there to send back to their families here and make life a little easier for them--not because they are trying to escape horrible situations (although some are escaping). It's beautiful here and you can't beat the weather! :001_smile: Also, the economy here is truly good for Americans who might not have a lot of retirement, but, it'll go farther here for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) The same is said by the French of individuals who speak "Canadian French" (Quebecois)) Or any other French from Canada, not just Quebecois. But what you sais can ALSO be said about American English, btw. If you learn English from the uneducated, then don't do to the UK and claim fluency either. In Canada, there's street French (aka non-educated French) and real French. Pronunciation is a bit off compared to Parisian French, but even in France, pronunciation varies from one area to another. Proper French *is* taught in Canadian schools. It's not necessarily spoken on the street, nor on TV. I've always been mystified that most North Americans study 'South American Spanish' but 'France French'... Edited December 31, 2010 by CleoQc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayle in Guatemala Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 And the Latin Americans laugh themselves silly at the "lisp" that Spaniards have. Most languages with distinctive regional variations have the opinion that theirs is the "correct" one and there are opinions ranging from good-natured ribbing to elitism on all the other variations. I think the American's fondness for the British accent is quite the anomaly. My own Spanish accent is a bizarre mix of Spanish and Mexican (as I've spent time both places) - I've driven native Spanish speakers nutty trying to figure out where I'm from... no one's ever guessed American, though... So true! When we went to Toy Story 3 this year, the whole theater burst into laughing and cheering when Buzz Lightyear started speaking Castillian Spanish with the lisp. Too funny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiCO Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) Colonialism at its best.:D Yes- that's why English is spoken in the US as well! (ETA: and Spanish in Mexico for that matter.) Same with Spanish in South American countries. People speak the language of their conquerors world over. ;) Edited December 31, 2010 by PiCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 So true! When we went to Toy Story 3 this year, the whole theater burst into laughing and cheering when Buzz Lightyear started speaking Castillian Spanish with the lisp. Too funny! Yeah, that was music to my ears... :D who was that, was it Antonio Banderas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) You know what, you CAN live your whole life quite successfully never speaking anything but English. But this whole "America is the BEST...woo hoo...we're the biggest, baddest country around...we don't care about your culture or your language because ours is the only one that matters" attitude can only be described as myopic ...and maybe sad too. Change a few words and isn't this exactly what some people in Malaysia say about someone who comes to their country helps spread a religion that is not indigenous, not part of the traditional culture, and then demands that they change to conform to outside views on corruption, bureaucracy, acceptance of other religions, hygiene and even postal practices....in essence saying "we're the biggest, baddest (pick your word) around...we don't care about your culture or your" practices "because ours is the only one that matters" Edited December 31, 2010 by pqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Spanish is probably close to the bottom of my list. If that's short-sighted so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 You missed the point the poster who elicited the rude and demonstrably false quote that you seem to agree with was speaking of the fact that Spanish is not that widely spread. The poster was correct, the quote you reference was false. The quote you reference argued that Spanish is more widely spread than English, that is demonstrably false. The truth is that with the exception of the US, Spanish is retreating. Travel to E Europe the language being studied there is English, (it is only in Romania that English is not the second language being studied by the greatest number, there it is French). Go to the Baltics or Scandanavia and English is so widely spoken that there is no issue. Go to Holland...English works just fine. Millions in China study English. If one does not adhere to the then learn French or Chinese as that will enable you to comunicate with more people or with people in a wider area of the globe. It is myopic to argue that more countries speak Spanish than do English. It demonstrates a US centric view where simply because more in this nation appear to have Spansih as a primary or secondary language that it would hold for the globe. No I got her point just fine thank you. And if you look closely you will see that I did NOT quote her entire post (deleting the part about Spanish being more widespread). But I DO agree with her view that the rest of the PP's comments were myopic. I don't care which additional language you choose to learn (as I mentioned earlier in the thread). What bothers me is the type of "attitude" I presented above (which was exemplified in the original post quoted). There is a big old world out there... it might be nice if more Americans started acting like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom in High Heels Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 The plain and simple truth is this: English is the language of the world. Call that arrogant, call that whatever you want. But it is the truth. There is a REASON Europeans have to learn more than one language and that's because they have a harder time getting by on just one. Americans don't have that problem. Hate us for it. Call us names. Whatever. English rules the planet right now and Americans happen to speak English - but I'm sure there's a group out that that think this is some sort of conspiracy theory against non-English speakers. Making Spanish mandatory because people who speak Spanish are flooding into the country really doesn't sound like good sound advice to me. In fact it reeks of political correctness. If you want to learn another language do so. If not, don't. Who cares? According to my German friend, it is compulsory for all kids to learn English in school. If they go to trade school (around age 12 or 13) they don't have to continue with it. If they go to secondary school (closest to our high school), they have to continue with English and one other language, and if they go to Gymnasium (college prep), they have to continue English and at LEAST one other language (though most take 2 or 3 more). In the world of science, English is the universal language. Almost all science classes at the University of Heidelberg (the oldest university in Germany), are conducted in English. I know an American who is studying there (as is her German husband) and she said her classes in science have all been in English. At the research lab where she works (she's studying genetics), they speak English. I do think a second language is important (believe me, I WISH I'd paid closer attention when I took German in college-and continued with it), but I think there should be several offered and students given a choice. Saying every student in the US should learn Spanish is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Change a few words and isn't this exactly what some people in Malaysia say about someone who comes to their country helps spread a religion that is not indigenous, not part of the traditional culture, and then demands that they change to conform to outside views on corruption, bureaucracy, acceptance of other religions, hygiene and even postal practices....in essence saying "we're the biggest, baddest (pick your word) around...we don't care about your culture or your" practices "because ours is the only one that matters" :lol: Hardly. My not liking the way they run their postal service is not quite the same as the majority of an entire nation seeing "no reason" to learn about the language, cultures, customs, etc., of any other nation because "let's face it, America rules the world!" I may not love the way they run their postal service but at least I took the time to learn about it. I am not minimizing every other culture on earth by saying their language is not "worth" learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Stereotype much? It's not a stereotype ...more of an observation...and a sad one at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayle in Guatemala Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Yeah, that was music to my ears... :D who was that, was it Antonio Banderas? I don't know! But it was funny for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Yes- that's why English is spoken in the US as well! (ETA: and Spanish in Mexico for that matter.) Same with Spanish in South American countries. People speak the language of their conquerors world over. ;) If the Kenyans had been the conquerors, we'd all be speking Swahili.:D My point is that if some other language had been spoken by the most prolific colonializers, then the language of business would be something else. There is nothing inherently "special" about English other than England did a lot of taking over the years.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 :lol: Hardly. My not liking the way they run their postal service is not quite the same as the majority of an entire nation seeing "no reason" to learn about the language, cultures, customs, etc., of any other nation because "let's face it, America rules the world!" I may not love the way they run their postal service but at least I took the time to learn about it. I am not minimizing every other culture on earth by saying their language is not "worth" learning. I think you are over generalizing Americans. Some may do so with an America first attitude. The truth is that to lead our daily lives in the US we don't need to deal with other cultures, customs and languages much. We take up a huge landmass and many of us never travel to another part of the world or even leave the state of our birth. There is a difference between an arrogant attitude and just feeling there is no need to know because the information isn't relevant to your life. However-there is a point to be made in that by running an "American" school in a foreign country you are deliberately exporting our culture and institutions. That is certainly an America first attitude put into practice-even if there is a want or need for such an institution. The vehemence of your statements seems a bit hypocritical in this light. I do believe that Americans, in general, are shortsighted in not wanting to know more about what lies beyond our borders but that doesn't mean they are all as deliberately horrible and arrogant as you portray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 (edited) :lol: Hardly. My not liking the way they run their postal service is not quite the same as the majority of an entire nation seeing "no reason" to learn about the language, cultures, customs, etc., of any other nation because "let's face it, America rules the world!" I may not love the way they run their postal service but at least I took the time to learn about it. I am not minimizing every other culture on earth by saying their language is not "worth" learning. Your comments about Malaysia (that you repeatedly post on a public forum), even if I agree with some of them, certainly minimize the way they do things there. I strongly support the spread of Christianity (for many reasons including the fact that it is arguably TODAY the most tolerant of other beliefs), but lets be honest here. What missionaries, Christian schools etc do is in effect say "We are right, if you are not one of us you are wrong." I agree with them but I am also honest in that belief. Do you honestly not see the irony in your saying But this whole "America is the BEST...woo hoo...we're the biggest, baddest country around...we don't care about your culture or your language because ours is the only one that matters" attitude can only be described as myopic ...and maybe sad too. and then working with people who say exactly that about the religion and culture of many in Malaysia? Honestly? Edited December 31, 2010 by pqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiCO Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 If the Kenyans had been the conquerors, we'd all be speking Swahili.:D My point is that if some other language had been spoken by the most prolific colonializers, then the language of business would be something else. There is nothing inherently "special" about English other than England did a lot of taking over the years.;) Yes. I was agreeing with you. We would all be speaking German (or Japanese) if the world wars had gone differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 If the Kenyans had been the conquerors, we'd all be speking Swahili.:D My point is that if some other language had been spoken by the most prolific colonializers, then the language of business would be something else. There is nothing inherently "special" about English other than England did a lot of taking over the years.;) What is special is that it is one of the most widely spoken languages and highly necessary in international communications be it business, diplomacy or education. Therefore it is a necessary language to learn. They history of why it became this way is irrelevant in modern times when discussing language study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 What is special is that it is one of the most widely spoken languages and highly necessary in international communications be it business, diplomacy or education. Therefore it is a necessary language to learn. They history of why it became this way is irrelevant in modern times when discussing language study. I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't learn it - we're all reading and typing in it right now, aren't we? Maybe I have missed the point of why or what you are arguing about, or what stake you have in it. Have a Happy New Year!:001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted December 31, 2010 Share Posted December 31, 2010 Wow :iagree: You know what, you CAN live your whole life quite successfully never speaking anything but English. But this whole "America is the BEST...woo hoo...we're the biggest, baddest country around...we don't care about your culture or your language because ours is the only one that matters" attitude can only be described as myopic ...and maybe sad too. Now, see... *I* can't get away with saying that, but I sure am glad you did. It is absolutely spot on. :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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