Life lessons: Learning to play by the rules even if we don't like them.

[Jane in NC]

In another thread , Susan C. wrote:

 

(Students) have to learn that everyone doesn't play by their rules or cater to them.

 

I think that I would like to open a can of worms, particularly for parents of students who have learning disabilities or differences. When I was teaching in a college classroom, policies were in place to offer certain accommodation, depending on the disability. In some cases, students were given tests outside of the classroom, usually in a quiet office. Some were given extra time for testing. These accommodations were never granted upon the student's request alone. Professional opinions had to be submitted to the school in order for accommodation to be considered. Students would sometimes approach me in my office to ask if they could have accommodation based on self assessment. This was never granted.

 

Nor did I allow students to take tests with headsets. One of my students who had documented disabilities asked me to permit him to test while listening to music. I did not allow it. For all I know, a student could have a cheat sheet recorded. Sounds nuts, but if I did not grant this for students in the regular classroom, I would not grant if for students who were taking the test elsewhere.

 

I have had students approach me to ask for lecture notes, viewing this as a needed accommodation. My lecture notes are usually outlines and not necessarily reflective of what happens in a class when questions arise. I declined and asked students in need of notes to talk to other students in the class. One of my son's friends is dyslexic. When my son and this young lady were in a CC class together, my son regularly provided copies of his notes to her. He was happy to do so.

 

Assignment due dates and test dates are usually firm. It boggles my mind that students feel instructors should bend assignment dates to their schedules. See Susan C.'s comment.

 

When students have documented illnesses (a stay in the student infirmary, for example), instructors are willing to work with them. Teens need to learn that deadlines may not necessarily be altered because they have a cold or a conflict of a test date in another class. I think that teaching our students not to procrastinate is one of the solid skills that we can provide. But how do we do this in our homes where we see the big picture, when we know that our students have outside deadlines or slept poorly the night before? I think that every parent needs to come to terms with this.

 

Once my son began dual enrollment, I found that deadlines at home became softer. But I did not erase requirements. My son did weekend work when necessary to get caught up. One of the adjustments that my son had to make this past year at his liberal arts college concerned balancing deadlines and professors' office hours. He had a weekly paper due in his writing intensive seminar every Tuesday morning. If he waited to the weekend to work on it, he might not be able to reach his professor to ask questions since she was very busy on Mondays. About half way through the semester he had a Eureka moment--if he had the thesis of his next paper determined by Thursday, he could easily chat with his prof before or after class. Common sense to an adult, but an epiphany to an eighteen year old.

 

I ramble on here to alert parents of high schools that while maintaining flexibility in homeschooling is ideal, eventually our kids will be out in the real world where deadlines are firm. As Susan C. so brilliantly noted,

(Students) have to learn that everyone doesn't play by their rules or cater to them.

 

Funny, my husband recently has been complaining about one of his professional colleagues who seems not to have learned this. But it is not funny how other people have to pick up the pieces for this guy. Corporate work these days is done by teams. The non-team player does not make friends or allies easily. Seems obvious, I know, but this thirty year old apparently never learned that lesson.

 

Jane

[Michelle in AL]

:iagree: sooo much!!

 

First of all, outside of illness, I never remember anyone asking for deadline changes in high school or college or asking for UNNEEDED adaptations. This seems to be almost status quo for some today.

 

I cringe too when I hear teachers making adaptations for gifted students. They too need to learn that they just can't "Skate"over things and need to be able to completely fulfill requirements even if they feel it is beneath them. I don't mean that assignments shouldn't be changed to meet their academic level, I'm more referring to being allowed to skip work altogether instead of having something more challenging in its place.

 

I teach a co-op class and I am continually frustrated by students not turning things in on time, or completing their assignments "just because." I love these students, they've been with me for yrs and only a few have this issue, most are great, but I keep telling the few that they need to prepare for real life. This class should be "real life" for them since it's an outside class, but some don't have the respect to meet expectations. And I do think it is a respect issue.

 

Some classes for homeschoolers are great. I am so grateful for my kids outside teachers. They have learned to keep to a schedule, deadlines and almost most importantly, to be taught by people they might not entirely agree with or like :D No matter what, they do their best for these teachers. They too slide with me sometimes, but they always have to finish their work on the weekends if this happens.

 

I have one procrastinator too. Sadly, despite many obstacles and near misses with last minute work, she is still a procrastinator. I'm beginning to think it is genetic.

 

I think you made a very good point Jane, that we all need to consider.

[Guest]

Perhaps it is because kids who are literature majors rarely have significant reading or writing disabilities, but I never ran into a single kid who asked for accommodations in a lit class in twelve years of teaching at the University of California. The most common request was for extra time due to multiple midterms in a single week. This was very frustrating, because if you allow one kid to have extra time, you have to allow anyone who asks to have the same allowances made, and I got papers trickling in over two to three weeks instead of having them all at once. It never felt fair to the kids who worked to get theirs in on time, and gradually I stopped making exceptions.

 

On the other hand, when I worked at a state college which served a different population, the kinds of requests for extra time were heartbreaking. Sometimes very young girls were having babies and/or miscarriages; kids were living out of their cars, homeless; or they lived in areas where there were frequent break-ins and robberies; there were date r*pes, gang fights, arrests. I lived at one point in an area of San Diego in which I could hear gunshots several times a week, and the SWAT helicopter was a basic element of the environment. I know what a toll it can take to try to function when you are living in this type of place. I found it all so hard to come to terms with, myself; I couldn't believe what these young people were struggling with.

 

The playing field, if you want to think of it in those terms, is so unequal -- for kids with disabilities of any kind, for kids whose parents never went to college and who just can't quite make ends meet, for girls who have been harmed by boyfriends, acquaintances, or strangers. What's more, it's been unequal for most of these kids for years, years in which they have struggled, faced physical or emotional harm, attended sub-par schools, had their basic needs go unmet yet have been expected to jump educational hurdles. I have a real problem with telling them to just face up to the real world, both because it isn't fair to them, and because I don't believe for a moment that the real world doesn't bend plenty in other circumstances for neurotypical people, for the rich, for the physically disabled, for the argumentative, for people with connections, for big-time sports players, for bosses' favorites, on and on. Deadlines are not always as firm as they may appear, in every line of work. What seems like the only logical and necessary way to approach a task may may be just that -- or it may not be so at all, and only fossilized habit makes people believe that it needs to be done one way. There are lots of exceptions; there are classes where more flexibility is built in, professors who are more open to alternatives than others, colleges which actively solicit kids who do things differently, jobs with more flexibility than others, lots of people with more flexibility than others.

 

So I agree that there indeed are many areas of life in which little room for exceptions exist, and if your child seems headed for that sort of career, you need to be much more diligent about making sure they can cope with the demands of that eventual world. However, I also see multiple options for people who don't want to go that route -- learning disabilities or not. I don't see a need so much to make my Aspie dd fit into the square box of the "real world" as I see a need to help her find a college that fits her, values her kind of mind, isn't built on rules for one narrowly defined sort of person; and to help her find a job with the same kinds of features.

[Murphy101]

Thank You!

 

It's a hard lesson that sadly some never learn or just never accept.

[Rosie_0801]

Rep point, KarenAnne.

 

 

Rosie

[8filltheheart]

I absolutely agree, Jane. The playing field may not be equal, but nor should it be expected to be equalized. Life just plain ole isn't fair.

 

My Aspie ds is intelligent, but he lacks certain coping skills. It stinks that he is burdened with his disability. But, neither he nor we can or should expect allowances to be made that provide unrealistic success. It serves to benefit no one. It behooves him and society at large to find his niche where he is going to be successful with the talents and skills that he has rather than expect the world to bend to meet him and constantly attempt to provide him a safety net of compensations.

Edited December 30, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[Murphy101]

We all have a different perspective, KarenAnne.

 

I don't see how expecting basic organizational skills such as time management, turning papers in on time, getting your own notes, and taking a test in mostly normative testing situations is some square box I'm stuffing any of my children into. It's basic consideration and basic business skills.

 

There are lots of exceptions and many of them bring in a question of ethics.

[Murphy101]

I absolutely agree, Jane. The playing field may not be equal, but nor should it be expected to be equalized. Life just plain ole isn't fair.

 

My Aspie ds is intelligent, but he lacks certain coping skills. It stinks that he is burdened with his disability. But, neither he nor we can or should expect allowances to be made that provide unrealistic success. It serves no one to any benefit. It behooves him and society at large to find his niche where he is going to be successful with the talents and skills that he has rather than expect the world to bend to meet him and constantly attempt to provide him a safety net of compensations.

 

Exactly.:)

[swimmermom3]

Excellent thread, Jane. As is true to my nature, I am of two minds with regards to this issue. First, there is the way that I was raised and the way that I have operated for many years. I could not imagine asking for any of kind of exception to a classroom procedure or expectation. In high school I wouldn't have needed one. In college repercussions from partying were my problem, not my professors'. In graduate school pride allowed me only to notify my favorite professor that I would not be turning a paper in on time. He asked a friend in class why and received my room number at the hospital where I was on a brief bed rest during a pregnancy. He did make an exception for me, but it was not one I asked for.

 

This is the same standard I tried to hold my children to when they were all in "normal" schools. It is an excellent standard in my book as long as your children are bright, motivated, and have all the basic skills in place. There is no room for learning disabilities, test phobias...ah, the man needs help getting dinner on the table. Back shortly.

[JennW in SoCal]

 

I think that I would like to open a can of worms, particularly for parents of students who have learning disabilities or differences.

 

Jane

 

Ummmm.....is this directed specifically at those of us with students with learning disabilities? I may be taking your post the wrong way, but it, and this thread in general, hit a nerve.

 

It is not coddled homeschool students who are expecting professors to bend the rules. Kids who are from traditional brick and mortar schools who have dealt with bureaucracy and rules their entire lives are the ones demanding exceptions and the bending of rules. A good friend of mine teaches at a selective LAC, and the stories she tells of what her students -- non-homeschooled students -- ask of her are amazing.

 

I sometimes think that we highschool parents expect every ill to be fixed through homeschooling and if there is a problem it means we failed. But kids are kids. They procrastinate and test boundaries, they screw up but don't want to get into trouble. How you homeschool isn't going to prevent any of this typical human behavior, you just have more opportunities to guide them along to better habits.

 

My point is that how I homeschooled with the nebulous deadlines, the loose grading policies, was NOT the real world, and my kids and I both knew that. They were raised to respect authority and to recognize the process of educating a classroom is far different from educating an individual. They have NEVER had a problem with deadlines or rules when they entered traditional classrooms or jobs in the real world. It isn't rocket science -- it is an attitude that is instilled, not drilled.

 

Colleges can do a wonderful job making accommodations for kids with real learning difficulties. The wake up call is that employers don't care. Your job training is the same as everyone else's and you have to know how to make those accommodations for yourself. My Aspie/ADHD kid wasn't able to go out and socialize after training hours, for instance, because he had to re-read all the training manuals in the quiet of his room.

 

Instead of students needing to learn that world doesn't cater to them -- in essence saying "suck it up", students need to understand their own strengths and weaknesses and learn how to cope. Learn when to ask for help and know what kind of help they need. It is the same idea -- the world isn't going to bend for everyone, but you can make adjustments to cope and carry on.

[regentrude]

The university where I teach grants accommodations for students with a documented disability. Unless the student elects to tell me, I do not know what their special challenge is, I only know what kind of accommodation I am required to provide. I don't have a problem with this.

The problem I have is with students who believe the rules - which are in place so that everything is as fair as possible- do not apply to them. If it has been announced that grade cuts are absolute, there will still be students asking that exceptions are made for them: because they are four points away, because they are "barely twenty points away" (I'm not kidding!), because they have a scholarship to keep, because they are already repeating and about to fail again, because they prayed hard before the exam. There are excuses for late homework, oversleeping an 11am class, anything. Most professors I know already have some margin built into their rules for family emergencies and sudden illness - my students can miss several assignments without penalty. The students I am talking about are far exceeding this. What irritates me is their sense of entitlement - apparently, they always got their way and this is the first time they have to face the consequences of their actions.

It has been my experience that the students who REALLY would have reasons to ask for exceptions are the ones who don't (like the girl who attends class two days after her emergency appendectomy) - or at least ask politely and accept it when I have to decline. The ones who are rude, demanding and insistent are not facing special hardships - they just don't get their act together.

 

I am not enforcing the rules to teach my students that "this is how the real world operates" or to "teach them responsibility". Character building should have been done by their parents. I do it because they all value fairness, and any adjustment I'd want to make for one person would cause a chain reaction in adjustments for all other students... with 80 or more students a never ending slide which would stop only with everybody getting an A. Yes, in some cases I wish a certain student would have gotten a better grade - but there ARE built in extra points and free assignments, and anybody who still is below the grade cuts at the end of the semester really has not demonstrated the mastery that deserves the higher grade.

[Stacy in NJ]

:iagree:

 

Something to think about is the advantage traditionally schooled kids have when it comes to understanding how to "play the system". They have more experience with bureaucracy and frequently can intuit when a teacher or professor is firm on policy and when there's a little wiggle room.

 

 

Ummmm.....is this directed specifically at those of us with students with learning disabilities? I may be taking your post the wrong way, but it, and this thread in general, hit a nerve.

 

It is not coddled homeschool students who are expecting professors to bend the rules. Kids who are from traditional brick and mortar schools who have dealt with bureaucracy and rules their entire lives are the ones demanding exceptions and the bending of rules. A good friend of mine teaches at a selective LAC, and the stories she tells of what her students -- non-homeschooled students -- ask of her are amazing.

 

I sometimes think that we highschool parents expect every ill to be fixed through homeschooling and if there is a problem it means we failed. But kids are kids. They procrastinate and test boundaries, they screw up but don't want to get into trouble. How you homeschool isn't going to prevent any of this typical human behavior, you just have more opportunities to guide them along to better habits.

 

My point is that how I homeschooled with the nebulous deadlines, the loose grading policies, was NOT the real world, and my kids and I both knew that. They were raised to respect authority and to recognize the process of educating a classroom is far different from educating an individual. They have NEVER had a problem with deadlines or rules when they entered traditional classrooms or jobs in the real world. It isn't rocket science -- it is an attitude that is instilled, not drilled.

 

Colleges can do a wonderful job making accommodations for kids with real learning difficulties. The wake up call is that employers don't care. Your job training is the same as everyone else's and you have to know how to make those accommodations for yourself. My Aspie/ADHD kid wasn't able to go out and socialize after training hours, for instance, because he had to re-read all the training manuals in the quiet of his room.

 

Instead of students needing to learn that world doesn't cater to them -- in essence saying "suck it up", students need to understand their own strengths and weaknesses and learn how to cope. Learn when to ask for help and know what kind of help they need. It is the same idea -- the world isn't going to bend for everyone, but you can make adjustments to cope and carry on.

[specialmama]

Ummmm.....is this directed specifically at those of us with students with learning disabilities? I may be taking your post the wrong way, but it, and this thread in general, hit a nerve.

 

It is not coddled homeschool students who are expecting professors to bend the rules. Kids who are from traditional brick and mortar schools who have dealt with bureaucracy and rules their entire lives are the ones demanding exceptions and the bending of rules. A good friend of mine teaches at a selective LAC, and the stories she tells of what her students -- non-homeschooled students -- ask of her are amazing.

 

I sometimes think that we highschool parents expect every ill to be fixed through homeschooling and if there is a problem it means we failed. But kids are kids. They procrastinate and test boundaries, they screw up but don't want to get into trouble. How you homeschool isn't going to prevent any of this typical human behavior, you just have more opportunities to guide them along to better habits.

 

My point is that how I homeschooled with the nebulous deadlines, the loose grading policies, was NOT the real world, and my kids and I both knew that. They were raised to respect authority and to recognize the process of educating a classroom is far different from educating an individual. They have NEVER had a problem with deadlines or rules when they entered traditional classrooms or jobs in the real world. It isn't rocket science -- it is an attitude that is instilled, not drilled.

 

Colleges can do a wonderful job making accommodations for kids with real learning difficulties. The wake up call is that employers don't care. Your job training is the same as everyone else's and you have to know how to make those accommodations for yourself. My Aspie/ADHD kid wasn't able to go out and socialize after training hours, for instance, because he had to re-read all the training manuals in the quiet of his room.

 

Instead of students needing to learn that world doesn't cater to them -- in essence saying "suck it up", students need to understand their own strengths and weaknesses and learn how to cope. Learn when to ask for help and know what kind of help they need. It is the same idea -- the world isn't going to bend for everyone, but you can make adjustments to cope and carry on.

 

:iagree: Thank you, Jenn. Beautiful. Especially the bold parts. Especially hitting a nerve. It rings of the same attitude as those who would like our special kids segragated from all of society. They're called SPECIAL NEEDS for a reason... think about it. :glare:

Perhaps it's my hormones, or perhaps I'm just sick of people looking down on my son, but I've had it with people trying to make him a square when he's a beautiful, unique circle.

[Corraleno]

Instead of students needing to learn that world doesn't cater to them -- in essence saying "suck it up", students need to understand their own strengths and weaknesses and learn how to cope. Learn when to ask for help and know what kind of help they need. It is the same idea -- the world isn't going to bend for everyone, but you can make adjustments to cope and carry on.

:iagree:

I don't think college prepares people for "real life" anyway — there are very few jobs that involve having to write papers and take tests, along with 30+ hours of take-home work, almost every week, for multiple simultaneous "bosses" which change every 16 weeks. Most jobs don't require people to memorize huge quantities of new facts and vocabulary every single day. And IME, deadlines in the "real world" actually tend to be more flexible than college deadlines, not less. If someone ends up with three meetings in one day, or has a headache, or whatever, it's not unusual to ask to have meetings moved, or project deadlines extended.

 

I've never been willing to accept the "life sucks, get used to it" idea, and I've purposely gravitated towards more creative, flexible, non-sucky jobs. When I've ended up in a lousy job, I've worked really hard to find another one as soon as possible. I really don't want my kids to accept that life sucks; I want them to learn that life is what you make it, and there are actually a lot of interesting and nonsucky options out there, depending on what you really want out of life and what compromises you're willing to make.

 

Jackie

[Stacy in NJ]

:iagree:

I don't think college prepares people for "real life" anyway — there are very few jobs that involve having to write papers and take tests, along with 30+ hours of take-home work, almost every week, for multiple simultaneous "bosses" which change every 16 weeks.

 

Question: Where do people who can't hack it in the real world go?

 

Answer: Grad school.

[Corraleno]

I am not enforcing the rules to teach my students that "this is how the real world operates" or to "teach them responsibility". Character building should have been done by their parents. I do it because they all value fairness, and any adjustment I'd want to make for one person would cause a chain reaction in adjustments for all other students...

Thank you for separating these two issues. If a student who knows the rules and has no actual need for accommodations, is rudely demanding that accommodations be provided because they screwed up, then I totally agree that student should not get special treatment.

 

That's a different issue, IMO, from the idea that accommodations and flexibility in education are unhelpful because they don't prepare kids for the "real world." I see that sentiment expressed here a lot, even in terms of making very young children use curriculum they hate because "you have to do lots of things you don't like in life, so kids need to get used to it as soon as possible." And I see the corollary — that allowing children a lot of input into their own education constitutes "indulgence" and "coddling" and will result in spoiled brats who can't function in the real world — even more often. I don't buy it.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Question: Where do people who can't hack it in the real world go?

 

Answer: Grad school.

I don't get it... :confused:

I certainly didn't go to grad school to avoid the real world, I went so that I would have more interesting options in the real world.

 

Jackie

[AngieW in Texas]

I taught physics at a community college for 3 semesters right after I graduated from college. I remember being asked for an exception two times. This was about 20 years ago.

 

One was a student who had his eyes dilated and one of them didn't go back to normal, causing his vision to be blurry. He actually had his girlfriend drive him to campus to show me. The test was that evening and he had a lot of trouble reading with one eye fully dilated and the other eye normal. I let him take the test the next day in the testing center.

 

The final one I didn't grant. He had opted not to turn in several of his lab reports and wanted an extension on the final lab report because he finally realized how much the zeroes were going to hurt his grade. My grading policy was in the syllabus he got at the beginning of the semester and I had talked to him about his zeroes before, but he wasn't concerned until the end of the semester. He got a C in my class. He was very unhappy that I didn't curve his grade, allow him to turn his work in late, or make up some extra credit for him to do. He had As on all the tests, but his failure to turn in some of the homework assignments and lab reports seriously hurt his grade.

 

My oldest is ADD. She has done pretty well with her cc classes and took a full load last semester and has another full load next semester. Despite her difficulties (especially with procrastination), she has learned to step up and take care of things. She figured out that she wasn't doing very well in her statistics class (got Cs on three tests in a row) and went to the free tutoring offered at the cc for statistics. She was able to pull her final up to a B and get a B overall in the course. We are looking into medication to help her with her focus.

Edited December 30, 2010 by AngieW in Texas

[JennW in SoCal]

No no no, don't worry Jackie. It is a joke! It made me laugh!

 

Some of us went to grad school to put off the real world and wound up with the same lousy options in the real world as before we went in! It is a happy way of staying a student because you can get teaching stipends to help pay the bills and can stay safe in the cocoon of academia a little longer.

[Stacy in NJ]

I don't get it... :confused:

I certainly didn't go to grad school to avoid the real world, I went so that I would have more interesting options in the real world.

 

Jackie

 

Dh is currently looking to hire an associate. The job requires an undergraduate degree with a focus/major in business or finance. Basically, he's looking to train a young college grad. He's gotten mutliple resumes from MBA's who are 30+ year olds with zero business experience. These are not the type of individuals he's eager to interview because they don't show a desirable amount of ambition.

[8filltheheart]

 

That's a different issue, IMO, from the idea that accommodations and flexibility in education are unhelpful because they don't prepare kids for the "real world."

 

Jackie

 

Jackie,

 

Perhaps I am wrong, but I read Jane's OP in a completely different way. I do not think she is referring to the standard accommodations that allow kids with disabilities to function within the realm of what is expected at the collegiate level. Honestly, does anyone that has read Jane's posts over the yrs think that is what she is referring to? :confused:

 

I read it more along the lines of expecting more than is realistic in assisting students achieve success. There has to be a line between accommodations that are beneficial and assistance that is harmful. Boundaries exist for passing/failing. Minimum levels of performance need to be met in order to protect the integrity of the class/institution/process.

 

This is an issue that is close to home for me. Ds has almost finished his first semester at the CC with what we are assuming all As, but he is not going back next semester. Behind the scenes of his class attendance were major meltdowns of gigantic proportions. The only way he could healthily continue attending college would be for there to never be a curve ball thrown in the mix. (for example, his final exam in one of his classes was postponed until Jan 6 b/c of snow. He literally paced the house for HOURS saying over and over that he was not going to take the exam now and that his grade was going to have to be whatever it was w/o the exam b/c the exam was supposed to be that day, not in Jan.) That is just one example out of many and these were all classes that he already knew most of the material.

 

Should he be able to expect not to take the final exam in Jan w/o any negative repercussions b/c he suffers from extreme levels of anxiety? If any such accommodation could even be made, would it be to his benefit? Why?

 

I think there is a huge difference between expecting normal accommodations that allow students with disabilities to function and thinking that our child is so exceptional that the system needs to bend over backwards to make the path smooth enough that they will have success.

 

Maybe if there are too many obstacles to success via a specific route, it is time to look at an alternative path.

 

I think Jane was addressing scenarios like if I went to ds's prof and insisted that he not need to take the final b/c it wasn't his fault the date changed and he wasn't able to cope well with that change. :tongue_smilie: I agree with her. Ds can't cope. Allowing him a pass would only create a false sense of achievement and would be detrimental to all the students that will take the final in Jan.

[justamouse]

(Students) have to learn that everyone doesn't play by their rules or cater to them.

 

True. And when that happens, they leave, open their own businesses and write their own rules. Dh and I case in point. The chemists, the QA, all love working for us because we're gen Xers who are very fluid. We don't care how the work gets done, just that it does. Jeans, t shirts, and lab coats over everything with Black Sabbath playing in the background. Except for when the FDA stops in.

[peacefully]

.

[specialmama]

Sometimes the flexibility that SN children experience when they are young simply gives them the time and space they need to grow into their own. It doesn't necessarily cripple their ability to meet the demands that they will face later in life. For dh, the lesson that his disability taught him was that he had to work harder and take more time, but when he did so, he could do well. If a SN child doesn't get a chance to make that realization, perhaps they may well give up before ever getting in the game or getting a chance to play by the rules.

 

Thank you for this. I absolutely agree.

[Guest]

:iagree:

And IME, deadlines in the "real world" actually tend to be more flexible than college deadlines, not less. If someone ends up with three meetings in one day, or has a headache, or whatever, it's not unusual to ask to have meetings moved, or project deadlines extended.

 

I've never been willing to accept the "life sucks, get used to it" idea, and I've purposely gravitated towards more creative, flexible, non-sucky jobs. When I've ended up in a lousy job, I've worked really hard to find another one as soon as possible. I really don't want my kids to accept that life sucks; I want them to learn that life is what you make it, and there are actually a lot of interesting and nonsucky options out there, depending on what you really want out of life and what compromises you're willing to make.

 

Jackie

 

This is exactly what I was saying, although apparently not in as acceptable a way. I actually have an overanxious, overly responsible, over-compensating child who is never going to ask for, and probably won't need, accommodations despite a rough number of years with dysgraphia and vision problems. I don't have a lax household where no one can conform to deadlines or where I make continual accommodations for dd. I rarely, rarely extended deadlines even for the kids at the state college whose burdens were equal to or bigger than what my dd faces. On the other hand, there's something about the "suck it up" school that seems to me unfair and unkind. I would make more exceptions now than I did back then. I don't think it's possible to go into all the individual permutations and possibilities of what is reasonable for a particular person, etc. But the opening up of my world to kids with all kinds of differences has made me realize that just as parents often tell their kids that fair doesn't necessarily mean you all get the same thing or have the same rules or freedoms at any given age, this may also be true in other arenas of life.

 

I do believe, like Jackie, that the real world works in a variety of ways, some more inflexible and rigid than others. So do different colleges work differently, require or look for different things in students, including types of exams or "output" -- this doesn't necessarily mean less "rigor." Finnish medical schools, for instance, have entrance exams based on reading and evaluating articles in medical journals; US schools give standardized, computerized exams. Each favors a different type of applicant. Some colleges require oral as well as written essay exams for graduation, while others do not. Some encourage or even require portfolios, internships, travel; others require coursework and exams exclusively. Big state schools are probably more bureaucratic and thus tend to be more rigid than smaller colleges -- at least, that is the case in my city.

 

I think sometimes we tend to think of the "real world" in a singular and cohesive sense, perhaps more so when we fear our kids aren't going to meet what we perceive as an unyielding block of demands or requirements. I wouldn't send my child into corporate American unless she had a driving, serious desire to get there; and if she did have that desire, I would see to it that she'd be aware of the inflexibility of many jobs within that world. Equally, I'll see to it that she has a sense of the enormous range of inventive, flexible, and challenging possibilities that do exist, both in terms of colleges and in the working world.

 

I can't resist two cases that may resonate with many people here: SWB was nearly a year overdue with the manuscript for History of the Medieval World. It still got done; it still got published; it is still shelved, bought, and read.

 

And anyone who has attended public school IEP meetings for their kids knows how often supposed professionals come to the meetings not having read any of the documents, or how often meetings are rescheduled due to multiple meetings (not actual time conflicts, but simply one person's sense that she doesn't want to do another meeting on that day or even -- I've heard it said -- drive across town in rush hour). If a parent hasn't encountered this sort of thing within the system, they live in a different real world than I do (and please tell me where it is!).

Edited December 30, 2010 by Guest

[regentrude]

After he graduated with honors and received a Regent's scholarship to attend medical school (for free), he continued to receive extra time for tests. He didn't get "extra time" for rounds or for the student interest group in alternative medicine that he started or the health education presentations that he would do in local public schools. He didn't get extra time for the curriculum that he developed on alternative medicine that was adopted by the School of Medicine (on top of his own required studies). But yeah, he continued to receive accommodations. Point being, he continued to make an outstanding contribution to his school, even though he had to take more time to study and take tests than some of the other students.

 

Thanks for sharing your story.

It is actually something I have quite often wondered when I see what kinds of accommodations some students get: what happens to an engineer who needs double time and somebody to read him the exams when he gets a job and has to work on a project? (Because I have a hard time imagining somebody who needs twice as much time as every colleague for his assignments to last on the job.)

May I ask:

What did your husband do to cope with all those tasks for which he did NOT get any extra time? Was it simply not an issue? Did he somehow outgrow the need for accommodation?

Thanks for explaining, because I really don't understand how the transition works.

[Corraleno]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I read Jane's OP in a completely different way. I do not think she is referring to the standard accommodations that allow kids with disabilities to function within the realm of what is expected at the collegiate level. Honestly, does anyone that has read Jane's posts over the yrs think that is what she is referring to?

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I thought Jane disagreed with accommodations for kids who really need them; I realize that she made a distinction between kids who have documented needs for accommodations, and people who are just asking for special treatment.

 

I think everybody (except maybe Denis Leary) agrees that kids with documented needs for accommodations should have them, and everybody agrees that kids who knowingly flaunt the rules, don't turn in any work, and then show up at the last minute demanding "extra credit" options shouldn't get special treatment. But I think there's a big gray area in the middle, and those who come down on the side of no accommodations/flexibility for the kids in that middle area tend to cite one of two reasons for it: (1) it isn't fair to the other kids and/or (2) "real life" doesn't provide flexibility & accommodations, so providing these things in college would do kids a disservice.

 

I don't think it's really that cut & dried. I think being "fair" doesn't always mean treating everyone exactly the same; sometimes it means giving everyone an equal chance, and some kids start with big disadvantages, whether they're medically documented or not. And with regard to #2, as I mentioned before, I think real life is often far more flexible and accommodating than college is, so I don't get that argument at all. I haven't been a professor, but as a TA I really tried to be as flexible and accommodating as I could. My primary goal was that the kids who wanted to learn and wanted to do well would indeed learn the material and get good grades, and I did whatever I could to facilitate that.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

Thanks for sharing your story.

It is actually something I have quite often wondered when I see what kinds of accommodations some students get: what happens to an engineer who needs double time and somebody to read him the exams when he gets a job and has to work on a project? (Because I have a hard time imagining somebody who needs twice as much time as every colleague for his assignments to last on the job.)

May I ask:

What did your husband do to cope with all those tasks for which he did NOT get any extra time? Was it simply not an issue? Did he somehow outgrow the need for accommodation?

Thanks for explaining, because I really don't understand how the transition works.

My DH is also dyslexic, ADD, and a terrible writer/speller. In real life he can just go in a quiet room and read as slowly as he needs to. He can type written communication, use spell-checker, and have me edit anything important before it gets sent out (others may have a secretary or colleague do the editing). Many things that look like "special accommodations" in an artificial testing situation (extra time, a separate quiet room, typing instead of hand-writing answers) are just standard practice in daily life. An engineer who needs extra time on college exams may not need any extra time at all to complete an engineering project, because that activity comes much more naturally to him. Someone who might need a written test read to him can either use the text-to-speech function on his computer for written communication or can get his information from personal meetings and discussions (or plans and drawings).

 

Most testing accommodations have to do with either verbal issues (reading, writing, verbal processing speed) or attention issues when dealing with written tests. OTOH, many of the people who need these accommodations are actually quite gifted visual/spatial thinkers. When DH took an IQ test as a kid, he was very slow on the few verbal components of the test, but "ceilinged out" on every single visual and spatial component. Once these visual/spatial people are in their element (engineering, art, graphics programming, whatever) they often do extremely well. If the SAT was designed by engineers and artists to test visual/spatial aptitude, I expect that we verbal/sequential thinkers would be the ones asking for accommodations. ;)

 

Jackie

[regentrude]

those who come down on the side of no accommodations/flexibility for the kids in that middle area tend to cite one of two reasons for it: (1) it isn't fair to the other kids and/or (2) "real life" doesn't provide flexibility & accommodations, so providing these things in college would do kids a disservice.

 

I don't think it's really that cut & dried. I think being "fair" doesn't always mean treating everyone exactly the same; sometimes it means giving everyone an equal chance, and some kids start with big disadvantages, whether they're medically documented or not.

 

Yes, fairness is never an absolute, and it is something I wrestle with every semester. I would like to explain why I personally find it necessary to make no accommodations (apart form the necessary ones for SN students). I see two major issues in yielding to those requests:

 

First, by giving a grade, I am certifying to the student's department (and via transcript to a potential employer) a certain level of mastery of a subject. A grade is not a statement about the student's potential, work attitude or personality - but about skills he has or has not acquired in a particular field. Fairness means that this measure of mastery HAS to be the same for everybody.

 

Second, as soon as I am considering bending the rules for a certain student, the student's personality and my feelings for her become an issue. I may feel sorry for a particular student whom I have come to like during the semester because of character traits she has demonstrated, or because of her personality (and believe me, it happens regularly that I think: could I not for her...). As a professional, however, I can not allow myself to let my grading be influenced by these emotions. That's why I will ask myself: would I grant the same exception to a student in the same situation who was disrespectful, lazy, ugly, unpleasant, weird... and upon this examination it is remarkable to see how easily one tends to be influenced by likes and dislikes in what should be an objective decision. The student's personality has nothing to do with her mastery of a subject.

 

Does that make sense?

Edited December 30, 2010 by regentrude

[peacefully]

.

[Joan in GE]

But my point is that he is now a very successful physician and CFO in his practice with 7 other physicians. He learned to play by the rules of the "real world" quite successfully, even though he had tons of flexibility during his academic career. I don't think that he learned to be irresponsible just because he experienced some latitude along the way. Sometimes the flexibility that SN children experience when they are young simply gives them the time and space they need to grow into their own. It doesn't necessarily cripple their ability to meet the demands that they will face later in life. For dh, the lesson that his disability taught him was that he had to work harder and take more time, but when he did so, he could do well. If a SN child doesn't get a chance to make that realization, perhaps they may well give up before ever getting in the game or getting a chance to play by the rules.

 

Fascinating anecdote.

 

I appreciate this thread and all the different experiences that are shared as well as the discussion of accommodating or not and how to - of special needs.

 

My oldest definitely has them, though he never got any accommodation for them; I cannot really say he has reached his potential yet. We were very unaware and his high SAT's didn't help matters. In retrospect, we would have done some things differently.

 

regentrude - I quite understand the grading justice that you discuss... how to have fairness but empowerment at the same time.......

 

I want to bring up the character aspects such as the "work ethic" and the "drive" that seem to be the difference between people who get accommodations but go on to really developing their talents and those who don't.

 

It seems like the accommodations when given properly should be "empowering", not "enabling" (in the negative sense).

 

Joan

[regentrude]

Thanks for explaining, Corraleno and yllek. That makes sense.

[Jane in NC]

Ummmm.....is this directed specifically at those of us with students with learning disabilities? I may be taking your post the wrong way, but it, and this thread in general, hit a nerve.

 

 

 

Jenn, apparently my intention has been misinterpreted. My initial intention was to state that reasonable accommodation is given by schools to students who require it--but documentation must be in place. I cannot tell you how many students have asked for accommodation because of self diagnosed (or parent diagnosed) test anxieties or math phobias. I have even been asked to move a test date because of a conflict with a fraternity rush schedule!

 

I believe that I am far from heartless. Karen Anne described extreme situations that some students undergo in day to day life. I have met some of these students at the community college and when I was a volunteer tutor at the alternative high school. But when I was a full time instructor with 120 - 160 students per semester, I was not able to determine individual learning plans for each of my students. Nor was I able to move the dates on which early reports on students are due, final exams are scheduled. Regentrude made a list of a number of abuses that students seek.

 

My husband is in an industry that works 24 hours a day, seven days a week. People in this country like having electricity around the clock for some reason. Anyway employees in this industry enter it knowing that they will periodically have on call duty which requires that they drop what they are doing and go to work--like it or not. Now I can harangue with the rest of the them about the leashes that corporate America places on employees, but his job is not alone in this sort of requirement. Admittedly, one should not accept a job in certain fields (medical, some engineering, police work) if one does not want this kind of life.

 

By the way, my husband is a dyslexic who always felt that he never had a disability. He knows that he sees the world differently and hence uses this ability to his advantage as a problem solver. But I digress...

 

It is a new day and as I sip my coffee I see that the intention of my OP was missed which obviously is due to my own inarticulate nature. I apologize to anyone who may have felt insulted. My post came about after conversations with my son about his first semester college experiences, how everyone was learning to cope with changing expectations, deadlines, taking responsibility through the various resources the college offered. I wanted to issue a warning to parents who feel that their students should receive accommodation without professional assessment. I wanted to remind parents that sometimes what works best for their student in their homeschool may not always be reproduced in that "real world" so perhaps high school is a time to introduce some coping mechanisms before kids are sent off to college. Fluidity has advantages--but potential disadvantages at times.

 

Guess I stepped in it this time...

Edited December 30, 2010 by Jane in NC

[Joan in GE]

Jane - This article, though it doesn't touch on special needs, discusses responsibility and might add general insight...

 

How America Messed up its Children

 

Joan

[Nan in Mass]

I have two big fears about homeschooling. One is that my children won't learn the skills they need to survive college and the more interesting sort of job afterwards. The other is that our gentle homelife alone won't prepare them to survive as an adult. I have worried about this since we began thinking about homeschooling the oldest and have continued to do so now for almost 20 years. I still don't have the answer to either question. In about ten more years, I might. I made a guess early on and have stuck with that guess through thick and thin. I have noticed that my approach is different from most people here, though, and that, as always, is worrisome.

 

I refuse to change the character of our home. In our home, we always have flexed things around to accommodate as many people as possible, to make everyone as comfortable as possible and to have as much fun as possible. We even move holidays like Thanksgiving around to suit ourselves and allow clan members to be with non-clan family, who aren't nearly as flexible about such things. We try to be real and honest and loving and forgiving and understanding and unselfish. We don't always succeed, but we try, anyway. Not changing a deadline for a paper in order to model a school setting in order to help prepare my children for school someday would be, in my household, impossibly artificial and unsustainable. When we set out to homeschool, we set out to educate our children at home, not reproduce school at home. Everyone in our household is required to act flexibly and compassionately, and if I demand that my children stick to a deadline just so that they learn about deadlines, I am not acting flexibly and compassionately. Grading doesn't work for the exact same reason. If we had defined our homeschool differently in the beginning, I would be able to grade and have deadlines, but we didn't, and by the time the question of deadlines and grades arose, it was too late to change the definition. (I think other people can probably get away with having flexible compassionate households and at the same time grading and having deadlines because they somehow defined their homeschool/education in a more school-like way in the beginning. Their children apparently don't burst into tears and look at them as though they had betrayed everything they were ever taught.) So that leaves me with a huge problem - how to prepare my children for the grades and deadlines they will meet outside our house. I am hoping that ymnastics, travel, and other non-school-oriented realities will do this adequately but I have no idea if this approach will work. It feels like a huge scary gamble.

 

-Nan

[JennW in SoCal]

I wanted to issue a warning to parents who feel that their students should receive accommodation without professional assessment. I wanted to remind parents that sometimes what works best for their student in their homeschool may not always be reproduced in that "real world"

 

 

Jane, my dear on-line chum. You are NOT heartless. But I have to say in my sarcastic tone of voice that I only use with close friends and family, "No Duh!!!" Your thread was from the heart, from experience as a mom and college prof, but it was a bit misdirected.

 

Trust me. Those of us who have kids with special needs are kept up at night with trying to balance our meeting their learning needs against the looming specter of them having to survive the real world. And we put up with lots of pointed comments on this board about how the disservice we are doing to our kids. Perhaps this thread will ultimately help the general population understand that our unorthodox method of homeschooling is the RIGHT thing, that we ARE teaching basic skills (organization, meeting deadlines, writing a decent essay) while approaching content in any manner that fits our kids. And, stunningly enough, we are working to prepare our kids for the real world because we don't want them unable to work and living with us the rest of our lives!!!

 

I'm about to join you in a cup of coffee, Jane. You're still a great voice to have on this board.

[justamouse]

It is a new day and as I sip my coffee I see that the intention of my OP was missed which obviously is due to my own inarticulate nature. I apologize to anyone who may have felt insulted. My post came about after conversations with my son about his first semester college experiences, how everyone was learning to cope with changing expectations, deadlines, taking responsibility through the various resources the college offered. I wanted to issue a warning to parents who feel that their students should receive accommodation without professional assessment. I wanted to remind parents that sometimes what works best for their student in their homeschool may not always be reproduced in that "real world" so perhaps high school is a time to introduce some coping mechanisms before kids are sent off to college. Fluidity has advantages--but potential disadvantages at times.

 

Guess I stepped in it this time...

I got upset because I have a son-oldest-whose IEP did *nothing* for him at school-no matter how much I advocated. Nothing. And when I homeschooled him, I pushed so hard he broke. He literally broke. If there is one thing that I feel absolute guilt over it's from letting my fear of his not being able to make it in *the real world* and pressing him to accomplish what he was unable to.

 

I was completely not compassionate, I was hard. I was demanding. He went back into PS in 10th, failed until he was 18 then quit that very day. All because I wanted him to live int *the real world*. No. My job as a parent is to provide a safe haven where they are nurtured to become the very best people they can be. I still don't know how to do that right, but I know how NOT to do it.

 

I know I sound short-I'm not upset at you, believe me. It's just a topic that really, really hurts.

[regentrude]

So that leaves me with a huge problem - how to prepare my children for the grades and deadlines they will meet outside our house. I am hoping that ymnastics, travel, and other non-school-oriented realities will do this adequately but I have no idea if this approach will work. It feels like a huge scary gamble.

 

I don't think one needs to "practice" having grades and deadlines. Kids will be able to deal with that in college - if the parents prepare them in other ways. What I find important to instill in my children are a good work ethic, time management, and holding themselves to high standards. I can accomplish this completely without deadlines and grades. I find it essential that my children receive honest feedback on their performance, learn to complete tasks, learn to balance their commitments - something my DD, for instance, learns at the barn ;-)

 

A student who is used to applying himself, to prioritize and to structure his time will be able to deal with deadlines and with the fact that his performance is evaluated by a letter or percentage - even if that has not been the case during his homeschool years.

I would see problems for students who do not receive honest feedback from their parents (i.e. who are praised for mediocre work that they put no effort in), who get to leave unpleasant tasks unfinished because they don't feel like it, who are taught that they are above the rules. These kids will likely run into problems later on.

[specialmama]

I think that I would like to open a can of worms, particularly for parents of students who have learning disabilities or differences.

Jane

 

Jenn, apparently my intention has been misinterpreted. My initial intention was to state that reasonable accommodation is given by schools to students who require it--but documentation must be in place. I cannot tell you how many students have asked for accommodation because of self diagnosed (or parent diagnosed) test anxieties or math phobias. I have even been asked to move a test date because of a conflict with a fraternity rush schedule!

.

.

.

.

It is a new day and as I sip my coffee I see that the intention of my OP was missed which obviously is due to my own inarticulate nature. I apologize to anyone who may have felt insulted. My post came about after conversations with my son about his first semester college experiences, how everyone was learning to cope with changing expectations, deadlines, taking responsibility through the various resources the college offered. I wanted to issue a warning to parents who feel that their students should receive accommodation without professional assessment. I wanted to remind parents that sometimes what works best for their student in their homeschool may not always be reproduced in that "real world" so perhaps high school is a time to introduce some coping mechanisms before kids are sent off to college. Fluidity has advantages--but potential disadvantages at times.

 

Guess I stepped in it this time...

 

Apology accepted, Jane. :grouphug: I had a grasp on your true intent, but the opening sentence (the bolded part) really sets us mama bears on guard. We've had to learn to fight for our special kids in every arena, so our defense is always ready. It is true that even with documented disabilities like severe autism, down's syndrome, etc., and with IPPs in place, the accommodations are often not appropriate, not enough, or the parent has to fight for them. Every. Stinking. Year. Every. Single. Teacher. It is not easy.

 

Btw, my dh has a few issues (ADD, Asperger's, OCD) and he is quite successful in his number crunching and government health auditing career. He had time and noise accommodations in school for testing, and how that has played out is that he goes to work 2 hours before everyone else and often works 2 hours later. He is salary, so he gets paid the same amount, but he needs this extra time in order to do his job. He does not want others to carry his load, he is super conscientious about it, and him working an extra 4 hours a day does the trick.

[Harriet Vane]

:iagree:

[LND1218]

It is not coddled homeschool students who are expecting professors to bend the rules. Kids who are from traditional brick and mortar schools who have dealt with bureaucracy and rules their entire lives are the ones demanding exceptions and the bending of rules. A good friend of mine teaches at a selective LAC, and the stories she tells of what her students -- non-homeschooled students -- ask of her are amazing.

 

I sometimes think that we highschool parents expect every ill to be fixed through homeschooling and if there is a problem it means we failed. But kids are kids. They procrastinate and test boundaries, they screw up but don't want to get into trouble. How you homeschool isn't going to prevent any of this typical human behavior, you just have more opportunities to guide them along to better habits.

 

My point is that how I homeschooled with the nebulous deadlines, the loose grading policies, was NOT the real world, and my kids and I both knew that. They were raised to respect authority and to recognize the process of educating a classroom is far different from educating an individual. They have NEVER had a problem with deadlines or rules when they entered traditional classrooms or jobs in the real world. It isn't rocket science -- it is an attitude that is instilled, not drilled.

 

Colleges can do a wonderful job making accommodations for kids with real learning difficulties. The wake up call is that employers don't care. Your job training is the same as everyone else's and you have to know how to make those accommodations for yourself. My Aspie/ADHD kid wasn't able to go out and socialize after training hours, for instance, because he had to re-read all the training manuals in the quiet of his room.

 

Instead of students needing to learn that world doesn't cater to them -- in essence saying "suck it up", students need to understand their own strengths and weaknesses and learn how to cope. Learn when to ask for help and know what kind of help they need. It is the same idea -- the world isn't going to bend for everyone, but you can make adjustments to cope and carry on.

 

:iagree:

[jld]

My job as a parent is to provide a safe haven where they are nurtured to become the very best people they can be.

 

:iagree:

 

I think Jane has explained her point. She is far too kind of a person to attack children with special needs. And I think she totally agrees with what you stated above, justamouse.

 

Btw, have you shared this with moms on the K-8 board? I see that hard-driving attitude so often over there. It might help them to hear your more experienced viewpoint.

[8filltheheart]

I got upset because I have a son-oldest-whose IEP did *nothing* for him at school-no matter how much I advocated. Nothing. And when I homeschooled him, I pushed so hard he broke. He literally broke. If there is one thing that I feel absolute guilt over it's from letting my fear of his not being able to make it in *the real world* and pressing him to accomplish what he was unable to.

 

I was completely not compassionate, I was hard. I was demanding. He went back into PS in 10th, failed until he was 18 then quit that very day. All because I wanted him to live int *the real world*. No. My job as a parent is to provide a safe haven where they are nurtured to become the very best people they can be. I still don't know how to do that right, but I know how NOT to do it.

 

I know I sound short-I'm not upset at you, believe me. It's just a topic that really, really hurts.

 

:grouphug:

 

There are no magic answers. We are in a somewhat similar spot with our 18 yos, but we reached this point from a completely different route. I haven't pushed, but I have lived with blinders on. In our case, even though we have been aware of obvious disabilities for yrs, the need to create an alternative path toward adulthood completely eluded our vision for our ds. The "college degree/white collar job" path that we were familiar with and was in our comfort zone seemed like the best path for him. Ummmm......not really. It was the best path based on our distorting his real abilities/needs to fit the mold that we wanted him to fit.

 

He would have been much better served if we had acknowledge how his disabilities were going to impact his future instead of trying to forge ahead in such a way that minimized his disabilities by only focusing on his strengths. That philosophy just didn't manifest well in the real world. His intelligence is a strength, but his disabilities are very real. Reality meets vision in very short order.

 

I guess that is how I read Jane's thoughts. I don't see the negative intonation that Jenn reads.

Your thread was from the heart, from experience as a mom and college prof, but it was a bit misdirected.

 

Trust me. Those of us who have kids with special needs are kept up at night with trying to balance our meeting their learning needs against the looming specter of them having to survive the real world. And we put up with lots of pointed comments on this board about how the disservice we are doing to our kids. Perhaps this thread will ultimately help the general population understand that our unorthodox method of homeschooling is the RIGHT thing, that we ARE teaching basic skills (organization, meeting deadlines, writing a decent essay) while approaching content in any manner that fits our kids. And, stunningly enough, we are working to prepare our kids for the real world because we don't want them unable to work and living with us the rest of our lives!!!

 

I read the exact opposite. I see Jane as encouraging parents to be real in what they are teaching and expecting. I didn't pick up any criticism toward how to achieve those goals, just encouraging parents to guide their children toward them realistically.

 

Just b/c some children with disabilities are able to live completely normal lives, it does not mean that all are. I think it is a false promise to create the illusion that disabilities do not limit. We allowed ourselves to embrace that idea.....that we should push for a completely normal life on a completely normal path. (high school, college, career) Disabilities may very well mean the need for detours and even completely altered visions for careers/jobs/futures. I wish for our ds's sake that we had acknowledged that 4 yrs ago and had helped him broaden his view of possibilities w/o the need for a college degree.

 

One thing is for sure.......sometimes you just wish they were delivered with an attached manual on how to raise them. Parenting SN kids is no easy task and looking back at our mistakes is far easier than looking forward toward the outcome of decisions.

Edited December 30, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[Joan in GE]

There are no magic answers. We are in a somewhat similar spot with our 18 yos, but we reached this point from a completely different route. I haven't pushed, but I have lived with blinders on. In our case, even though we have been aware of obvious disabilities for yrs, the need to create an alternative path toward adulthood completely eluded our vision for our ds. The "college degree/white collar job" path that we were familiar with and was in our comfort zone seemed like the best path for him. Ummmm......not really. It was the best path based on our distorting his real abilities/needs to fit the mold that we wanted him to fit.

 

He would have been much better served if we had acknowledge how his disabilities were going to impact his future instead of trying to forge ahead in such a way that minimized his disabilities by only focusing on his strengths. That philosophy just didn't manifest well in the real world. His intelligence is a strength, but his disabilities are very real. Reality meets vision in very short order.

 

....

Just b/c some children with disabilities are able to live completely normal lives, it does not mean that all are. I think it is a false promise to create the illusion that disabilities do not limit. We allowed ourselves to embrace that idea.....that we should push for a completely normal life on a completely normal path. (high school, college, career) Disabilities may very well mean the need for detours and even completely altered visions for careers/jobs/futures. I wish for our ds's sake that we had acknowledged that 4 yrs ago and had helped him broaden his view of possibilities w/o the need for a college degree.

 

One thing is for sure.......sometimes you just wish they were delivered with an attached manual on how to raise them. Parenting SN kids is no easy task and looking back at our mistakes is far easier than looking forward toward the outcome of decisions.

 

We realize this now about our oldest but still don't have answers about how to guide him. He's partly finding his way, but still needs help.

 

So I'm wondering where you find answers and a broader vision of his possibilities?

 

Joan

[swimmermom3]

Thank you for separating these two issues. If a student who knows the rules and has no actual need for accommodations, is rudely demanding that accommodations be provided because they screwed up, then I totally agree that student should not get special treatment.

 

That's a different issue, IMO, from the idea that accommodations and flexibility in education are unhelpful because they don't prepare kids for the "real world." I see that sentiment expressed here a lot, even in terms of making very young children use curriculum they hate because "you have to do lots of things you don't like in life, so kids need to get used to it as soon as possible." And I see the corollary — that allowing children a lot of input into their own education constitutes "indulgence" and "coddling" and will result in spoiled brats who can't function in the real world — even more often. I don't buy it.

 

Jackie

 

I have such mixed feelings about accommodations. When my dd began to hit the academic wall in 6th grade she was so terrified of asking for help because she did not want to appear to be "stupid" that she missed learning fractions, percentages, and decimals. We moved her from the private school to the public school and she spent the next year and a half and Sylvan Learning Center working on math and study skills. In 8th grade she had an amazing math teacher who told us that we were beating our heads against the wall and wasting our money at Sylvan. He told us that she got the material but had horrible test anxiety. Apparently he suspected something was wrong when she had been particularly active in answering questions in class the day before the exam, but left similar questions on the test blank. He began giving her oral exams or having her take the test in a separate room that was quiet. Her scores improved dramatically.

 

This teacher and I had a very heated discussion about "accommodations." His opinion was that the anxiety and to some degree, distraction were going to be ongoing issues and that my dd would need to learn to be her own advocate with her future instructors. I was adamant that she needed to learn to "get over" her issues. He shook his head and said he did not think it was going to happen. My argument was that the world was not going to accommodate my dd's issues. "The world is willing to waste a mind; I am not," was his parting comment.

 

Several years later, I try to walk the fine line in homeschooling between enforcing real world standards and recognizing when things need to be done differently in order to get the most out of my students.

 

With regards to students who have no reason to demand accommodations other than procrastination, etc., we are a society that values and upholds to the nth degree the practice of "Let children be children." Perhaps that is why we have so many 30, 40, and 50 yo "children" who are still asking for "accommodations" in their jobs, relationships, and grad school.;)

[specialmama]

"The world is willing to waste a mind; I am not," was his parting comment.

 

Several years later, I try to walk the fine line in homeschooling between enforcing real world standards and recognizing when things need to be done differently in order to get the most out of my students.

 

 

Wonderful quote, Lisa! Thank you!

[Stacy in NJ]

This is a general observation based purely on my own and my dh's experience.

 

Dh works, as I did previously, in a very dynamic industry. He manages the "desk" and department of an investment banking firm. Periodically, he's responsible for hiring and firing. His industry demands a certain amount of personal ambition and drive. On numerous occasion he's had hires that look wonderful on paper; they've come from great schools with wonderful credentials. He had one hire who was a National Merit finalist and an ivy school grad. Unfortunately, these credentials frequently have nothing to do with their job performance.

 

College requires very little independent, creative thinking. A syllabus is provided; deadlines are obvious; a structure is built into the nature of the institution. Jobs that require flexible, creative, dynamic thinking and personal drive or motivation can be difficult to adjust to for some high achievers.

[mcconnellboys]

This is one reason I acquiesced in my older son returning to a private high school his last three years. I had not been able to find many good small groups for him within the homeschool realm here (there are more available now), and even in his dual enrollment courses there was a great deal of flexibility and he was generally alone for testing. He has auditory and sensory processing problems (although we don't have any sort of formal IEP in place for him) and I felt he needed the preparation time to get ready for the college world....

[Murphy101]

I just want to offer some support for Jane. I never thought she was attacking or looking down on anyone. All of her advice is reasonable and applicable to any student as far as I can tell, SN or not, HSed or not.

 

It isn't about stuffing any child in square boxes.

It isn't about being creative or flexible or not being that.

It isn't about pushing them hard.

It isn't about insisting on As.

 

It's about equipping our kids with a basic realistic skill that will make their life easier regardless of their education or career choices.

 

I completely agree that it is vital we teach our kids how and when to ask for help. Btw, there is a segment on How to be a Superstar Student that covers this very well, IMHO.

 

I can't imagine Jane saying any student shouldn't ask for help.

 

There is a valid difference between asking for help and expecting exceptions without documented need or true emergency reason.

 

I agree when I was in school and many of you too probably - students asking for exceptions rarely happened. It was an understood that the answer would be no.;) But Jane, her dh, and other professors and employers will tell you that many many people these days have a very difficult time grasping that they aren't due an exception just because. They just can't understand why their coworkers or boss don't appreciate it or see the connection to how difficult they are making not only their own life, but others' as well. It is sad and frustrating to behold for everyone involved.

 

I think if we can help our kids navigate this and develop this skill, it would be to their long term benefit.

 

And as a mother of 9.4, I'll be the first to say it IS hard to do and I worry about balance and whether I'm too hard or too easy or too whatever that isn't enough or isn't just right too. :grouphug:

[JennW in SoCal]

One thing is for sure.......sometimes you just wish they were delivered with an attached manual on how to raise them. Parenting SN kids is no easy task and looking back at our mistakes is far easier than looking forward toward the outcome of decisions.

 

Amen to that!!! My New Years wish for you is that you and your son find that alternative path, at least the entry way to the path. It is out there, but heading out into life down a non-traditional (college to career) path is frightening for the parents and the young adult.

 

I'm so grateful and happy that my ds has found his path, has lived on his own for a year now, and is doing very, VERY well. His path may still not be easy, but I wish all of my friends here with SN kids can one day experience the relief and pride that I feel for him.