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Life lessons: Learning to play by the rules even if we don't like them.


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I was curious about the stats of adults with bachelor's degrees and found it varies by state (never down to 3% though). It also varies by ethnicity and age.

 

If anyone is curious about their state, here's a link to those aged 25 - 44 broken down by state and ethnicity (from 2007 data).

 

http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?submeasure=354&year=2007&level=nation&mode=data&state=0

 

If you just want state data itself for all adults over 25, here's a link:

 

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/edu_per_of_peo_who_hav_com_a_bac_deg-who-completed-bachelor-s-degree

 

You can get other categories via google.

 

It's rather interesting, and definitely shows that the majority of adults in those age ranges don't have a degree, but in some areas/categories, it's getting close to switching.

 

Referring to another thread... the Asian stats were rather telling... Nationwide, the majority of that ethnic group does have at least a bachelor's.

 

This links shows the percent of millionaires with at least a bachelor's. (Look in myth number 4.) Yes, it's definitely possible without one, but like anything else, odds are better with.

 

http://financialedge.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0810/7-Millionaire-Myths.aspx

 

But still, if it's not right for the student, it's not the right path for them and we're only stressing them out trying to make them fit into the wrong setting. My nephew couldn't even finish high school in the ps. Yet he's still a nice person. His worth IS NOT in his education nor in the fact that he will never make the millionaires list without a lottery win (and likely wouldn't stay on it long even with a win!). He can fix a car... ;)

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I just wanted to note that it isn't only learning disabilities and that kind that need accommodations. My middle dd has ADHD but the only accommodation she needs for that is no nighttime testing and spellchecker. However, what is much more urgent is documentation about her migraines and blood pressure issues. If either one of those occur in a severe enough form (and they do currently at times, hopefully the blood pressure issue will be resolved before college), she can't do a test or just about anything. Now she is on migraine preventatives and does take medicine to stop them but occasionally she gets one and can't hardly move, let alone take a test. If you are comparing it with the 'real world' , she wouldn't do work during that time either at a job. She doesn't do this at every migraine, in fact, she hardly ever has one that bad. But they still do happen at least a few times a year. Her current blood pressure issues are even more troubling. Not only does she faint if she keeps standing, she also has inadequate blood supply to the brain and can't think right either. Again, in the real world, she wouldn't work through that. She is on medication now and she is going back to the cardiologist to do more testing and adjust medication again. But for now, this is still a real problem.

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Perhaps, but dead-end jobs were some of my most valuable life experiences. Work, travel, volunteering, and non-typical educational venues offer other types of opportunites.

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:iagree:

Actually, my example is more along the lines of engineers and programmers who work in electrical generation (coal fired plants, nuclear, hydro), essentially those who keep the grid going. This is demanding, team oriented work where time is of the essence. (You really don't want an operator of a nuke plant to ignore deadlines or alarms.)

 

Regarding colleges and flexibility: I strongly encouraged my son to apply to LACs over larger unis in order to be an individual over a number. In particular, my son chose a school where each student designs individual research as a requirement for graduation. This attracts independent thinkers.

 

People who feel that the purpose of college is job training may not always approve of some of these small (possibly quirky) schools that are well suited for the non-linear thinkers of the world.

 

I'm glad you brought these points up.

 

Jane, you didn't step in it; you started a much-needed conversation. )

 

Yes, it's good to discuss this here and to see different points of view. It helps us rethink what we're doing and where we're going. It's okay to agree to disagree at times, too, which is what generally happens.

 

Part of Jane's point seems to be that it is important, if one wishes to have accommodations, to have the need for them documented. I would like to add to this that the timing of the documenting is important and something to be investigated.-Nan

 

Yes, this is important. It's also important to realize that documentation can end up in your dc's permanent medical records, even if it's something they overcome or outgrow or get to the point where they can handle themselves without accommodation (and, yes, some things are like that, but not always.)

 

I absolutely do not believe that you need a college degree to be successful. There are tradesmen that have extremely successful businesses. The downside for me is that I am so far removed from that type of experience that I know nothing about them.

 

If I could go back to when he was 14, I would have tried to find professional tradesmen that would have allowed ds to "shadow" them. Not necessarily like an apprentice, but a volunteer that could observe the work being done. I would have tried to expose him to a wide variety of trades (everything from HVAC to landscaping). I would also have gotten him involved in community resources like 4H or Junior Achievement. http://www.ja.org/programs/programs_high_overview.shtml

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing this. Have you posted this on the SN forum? I'm guessing yes. Have you seen this book: http://www.amazon.com/Unwritten-Rules-Social-Relationships-Perspectives/dp/193256506X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293806475&sr=8-1

Edited by Karin
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Hi, Karin! I'm on a lot during Christmas break - also got a Kindle for Christmas so I came to the one place I knew that would be able to help me figure it all out! Also, Austin will be a high schooler in the fall of 2011 so I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around it.

 

This has been a difficult fall for Austin... he came off his seizure meds, and that messed with him mentally. Then he broke his ankle stealing 3rd base and had to have surgery. The surgery was 3 months ago today and just yesterday he was finally given the release to walk unassisted. He missed the majority of his baseball season, and won't be back to form for this spring season, either. And he only has 2 more seasons before he ages out of the program. The down time has given him a lot of time to think. Which is good and bad.

 

I keep telling him that when this is all over, he is going to find that he is much stronger than he ever realized. Physically and mentally. But I also have decided that if things aren't back to more of a normal mentally after he has had a month or two of back to his normal physical activity (he calms himself with movement which has been pretty difficult the last 3 months), then we'll go see a psych doctor.

 

Wow, you've been through a lot, and it is challenging. I was happy to read about his drumming, even though he has social issues. If he excels in something that can help open doors. I know you'e done and read a lot and you have a good plan, but if you haven't already read it, I highly recommend the book by Temple Grandin & Sean Barron (sp), Unwritten Rules... http://www.amazon.com/Unwritten-Rules-Social-Relationships-Perspectives/dp/193256506X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293806475&sr=8-1

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One of the biggest lessons life seems intent on teaching us (hubby and I) is that the way to get through life is to accept the rules you don't mind following or think are reasonable, attempt to negotiate with the ones you don't want to follow and/ or think are unnecessary, but cheerfully accept "No!" when that happens so the person saying "No!" will entertain you the next time you ask.

 

Rosie

 

As we can all see, one can be wise even if one grew up getting Cs.

 

According to the 2000 Census, about 25% of Americans over 25 have bachelors degrees. Are you sure you heard him correctly? I cannot imagine that number dropped that far in 10 years. I suspect it increased. Do you think maybe he said 30%, not 3%?

 

Of course, that percentage is going to be different for different age groups, too, and stats can be manipulated.

 

Most of the (good) tradesmen I know are millionaires. Not kidding in the least.

 

I don't know why the trades are so looked down upon-one carpenter I know who has his own gorgeous estate just likes being a carpenter. He's easily a millionaire a few times over-but an artist with wood and went toe to toe with me over some books we had both read.

 

Even if you're not a millionaire, it's good work. My dh's dad was a caprenter. My mom's dad farmed and then became a 4th class engineer (meaning he took care of boilers). He had a gr 8 education but was highly literate and well educated on his own. He was also warm and loving, and after my grandmother went back to work in her 40s they saved enough that they bought ocean side property (okay, they were up a cliff and had to hike down a lot of stairs, but still not cheap) although the house wasn't fancy.

 

there is a tiny bit of a false choice here as well. It's not necessarily a choice between a 4-year college and a trade like plumbing. Many, many, many successful folks pursue neither. Professional artists, musicians, small business owners, web publishers, entrepreneurers of many types have neither a degree or trade skills.

 

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Right! (but for her ds, it's the real choice.) I'm glad you broght this up, though, because it hadn't been mentioned.
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I don't think it is that simple. One job can have some aspects that are very appealing and at the same time, have other aspects that are not well-suited to the person. My wired-differently son is dealing with this now. In some ways, his chosen profession is perfect for him, and in other ways (for example, the time-keeping ones), it is going to be a major struggle. The fact that his watch battery ran out is going to have a major impact on his education and job choices, sigh. Yes, now we know that when you buy a watch, if you work a grid-type job, you have to replace the battery with a new one instantly, but the discovery came rather too late. He had some minor problems when he was adjusting to following a rigid schedule that, put together with this much more serious mistake, make a large black mark. Everyone was sympathetic, but there isn't anything anyone can do about it. So, it isn't a simple thing...

-nan

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Even if you're not a millionaire, it's good work. My dh's dad was a caprenter. My mom's dad farmed and then became a 4th class engineer (meaning he took care of boilers). He had a gr 8 education but was highly literate and well educated on his own. He was also warm and loving, and after my grandmother went back to work in her 40s they saved enough that they bought ocean side property (okay, they were up a cliff and had to hike down a lot of stairs, but still not cheap) although the house wasn't fancy.

 

 

My dh is a carpenter, no college degree. While we aren't wealthy we've been able for me to be a SAHM since ds was born. If we lived in a different part of the country he could use his specialty more often, our area just doesn't have the client base and he ends up doing everything. But as a self-employed person it requires a tremendous amount of time, physical effort, and a very assertive personality.

 

For the right person the trades are great work.

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According to the 2000 Census, about 25% of Americans over 25 have bachelors degrees. Are you sure you heard him correctly? I cannot imagine that number dropped that far in 10 years. I suspect it increased. Do you think maybe he said 30%, not 3%?

 

No, they also had his speech typed up and on a screen for the hard-of-hearing and Deaf. He definitely said 3%. Why am I not surprised? My university is not exactly top-of-the-line. I'll have to look up some numbers and check my state and local stats to see if he was referring to that instead. Thanks for letting me know.

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I don't think it is that simple. One job can have some aspects that are very appealing and at the same time, have other aspects that are not well-suited to the person.

-nan

 

Actually I think this tends to be true the majority of the time for everyone and ever job.

 

There's always going to be aspects that are easier or harder, come more natural or don't.

 

The job could be their dream come true and that is likely still going to be the reality to some level.

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One of the things that always bothers me about these discussions of whether a degree is "necessary" is that the purpose of a degree (education or job training) is often interpreted differently by each poster. Anecdotal information is just that.

 

Helping our kids find fulfillment, a life worth living, seems to be a process that does not necessarily end at age 18 or 22.

 

No, it's never over and if we've done our jobs well, they won't need us for a good percentage of it. They'll be able to navigate their own chapters as they mature, just as we have. Maybe they'll switch horses midstream a few times, too.

 

There is no magic bullet. They can have a masters and have no job and no path because they've gotten themselves into a corner somehow. They can not go to HS and apprentice a trade and become an artist in their own right. (Personally I think artistic talent and creativity do not stop at the fine arts-it's an amazing thing to see a plumber look at a room, bend all the pipes and put it all together like a jigsaw puzzle or with a scientist who is pursuing a discovery or my dh who sits in a room and writes formulas that will tablet, which tablet die, what pressure...).

 

I don't think it is that simple. One job can have some aspects that are very appealing and at the same time, have other aspects that are not well-suited to the person. My wired-differently son is dealing with this now. In some ways, his chosen profession is perfect for him, and in other ways (for example, the time-keeping ones), it is going to be a major struggle. The fact that his watch battery ran out is going to have a major impact on his education and job choices, sigh. Yes, now we know that when you buy a watch, if you work a grid-type job, you have to replace the battery with a new one instantly, but the discovery came rather too late. He had some minor problems when he was adjusting to following a rigid schedule that, put together with this much more serious mistake, make a large black mark. Everyone was sympathetic, but there isn't anything anyone can do about it. So, it isn't a simple thing...

-nan

 

I think there's parts in every job that we all hate and struggle with. We just accept the bad because we've measured the scales of our happiness and they're worth it. So we suck it up. And many times, our failures play heavily into those decisions--can we do it again correctly or will we pursue something else?

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Also a degree is not just about what job a person gets.

 

Sometimes it's about what promotions they could get. It's about who gets laid off or kept.

 

And the job a kid starts with very likely won't be the field they stay in the rest of their life. I know very few people who have a career that they have no worry of ever needing to change professions at some point in their life. Most people have a complete career field change at least three times.

 

There are many ways towards a degree. And it doesn't have to be trades or degree. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

 

My rambling thoughts...

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I'm making my 16 year old get a real paying job. And he really does need the money so he is motivated to keep it. We simply cannot afford to add him to our car insurance and he wants get a driver's license. Also, tho we hope to help with education after graduation, if nothing else by him living at home, he will need to pay for most of it. Also, now that he is getting older there's plenty of other things he wants money for. I'm hoping that since he is still young and living at home, we will have lots of conversations about social ques and work dynamics. I hope it works out and is a great experience. But even if it isn't, that's going to be a good, tho hard, lesson too that every person has to experience at some point.

 

He is already getting a bit of a clue that maybe, just maybe, mom and dad aren't full of it when they say how he presents himself, being on time, putting effort in taking pride in his work, and such makes a difference. Annoying as it is that 16 years of saying doesn't have as much impact as some yahoo he has known for about three days noting it - I'm choosing to just be glad he is starting to believe us.;)

 

Working probably helped me, back in the day. But it seems like low-paying jobs are pretty easy to get these days? I don't see the kids worrying about losing those jobs or building a resume just to get a menial job, like I did. My best example is the time a DQ worker disappeared while he was making our ice creams... He just decided he didn't want to work there any more, at that moment!

 

It's hard to fight the culture in this current generation, I think. Of course I try, and I think homeschooling gives me more opportunities. I think I'm going to try extra hard to get my youngest into a mentoring or meaningful opportunity, where he wants to succeed badly, in the next few years.

Julie

Julie

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Working probably helped me, back in the day. But it seems like low-paying jobs are pretty easy to get these days? I don't see the kids worrying about losing those jobs or building a resume just to get a menial job, like I did. My best example is the time a DQ worker disappeared while he was making our ice creams... He just decided he didn't want to work there any more, at that moment!

 

It's hard to fight the culture in this current generation, I think. Of course I try, and I think homeschooling gives me more opportunities. I think I'm going to try extra hard to get my youngest into a mentoring or meaningful opportunity, where he wants to succeed badly, in the next few years.

Julie

Julie

 

It really depends on the job. Sometimes low paying jobs can be tough to get right now bc so many people need a second pt job or are working two pt jobs until they can find a decent ft job. I don't know ANY local teens with jobs right now. Partly because they are pains to employ, but also bc so many adults are taking the jobs. A lot of places will not employ anyone under 18 anymore.

 

Bottomline for us, is ds needs to start bringing home some income to invest in his own future. Whether a job is meaningful or offers opportunity tends to have more to do with the employee than the job, IMO. I certainly hope he/we find mentors along the way over the years too.

 

Ds doesn't have a particular area he wants to specialize in yet. He just wants to continue his education, have a bit of financial security, help other and explore his options. I think that is actually far more typical than the 16 yr old that knows he is going to be a dr or whatever.

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No, they also had his speech typed up and on a screen for the hard-of-hearing and Deaf. He definitely said 3%. Why am I not surprised? My university is not exactly top-of-the-line. I'll have to look up some numbers and check my state and local stats to see if he was referring to that instead. Thanks for letting me know.

 

I suspect the speech writer made a typo or something. Considering 30% is close to the correct average, and few of us would have known the average without looking at the stats, it just seems likely. What you heard was correct based on what was written, but I think the speech writer made the typo. Big mistake though, and now I wonder how many believe it and will spread it on innocently. Fortunately, it's not a life threatening mistake!

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a virtual testing/assessment as to whether or not he should be allowed to get a driver's license

 

Thanks for the other info too...and if you find the name of this virtual test, could you tell me (the state might be using something available elsewhere)? My husband has wondered this about our oldest...

 

Joan

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I have just finished my first semester of homeschoolng and my dd thought that homeschooling should be all about "La, la, la, la, la, la, la, getting things done when you feel like doing them..." Our biggest challenge this first semester has been about establishing and respecting deadlines. The real world waits for no man!!!

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I have just finished my first semester of homeschoolng and my dd thought that homeschooling should be all about "La, la, la, la, la, la, la, getting things done when you feel like doing them..." Our biggest challenge this first semester has been about establishing and respecting deadlines. The real world waits for no man!!!

 

This is why I said what is quoted in the beginning of this thread.

 

I am coming from our experience, about my wanting to prepare the high schooler I have now adequately for college, while at the same time giving a fair amount of work at the right level, and being clear about expectations. It is an ongoing thing. I am learning a lot from my oldest being in college. I have always worried that I didn't do everything I should have to prepare him, but he does seem to be faring pretty well. He is certainly taking a few "bumps in the road" much better than I would have at his age. I do NOT like unreasonable professors/teachers, that unreasonableness is one reason I never put my kids in school. It angers me to have to throw my kids into a system I deliberately left. I am not saying all teachers are that way (I admire great teachers), but I have seen a less than competent teacher completely ruin a kid's/family's school year. But, we will get that boss. friend, co-worker, in-law, etc. that is like that and it does help to learn how to cope with that. At some point you can't protect them from that anymore (sigh). I do wonder if it was like throwing dc into the fire without preparation. Our homeschool emphasis is learning the material, not all of the politics of school or playing the system. So you do need to teach dc how to either play or not play the system. For SN kids, you do work within the system of getting accommodations and I consider that part of playing by their rules.

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We're dealing with this somewhat right now, only it's coming from himself. I posted probably not even a year ago that his ideas for the future were more like an 8 year old - wanting to be a race car driver, and a baseball player, and a drummer - all at the same time, and he wanted to go to the University of GA when he can't even master fractions. At the time I posted that, I couldn't wish for more than for him to 'wake up to reality'.

 

Well, I got my wish. And now I have a depressed 14 year old who doesn't think there is any purpose in doing school anymore or in doing anything because he won't be able to make anything of himself anyway. Every now and then on a good day he will comment that there are lots of options out there. All the kid wants to do is to have a place on his own and live a good life. He doesn't want the moon, he just wants to be independent.

 

If some accommodations could give him that hope, I would be absolutely thrilled! He's a nice, loving, caring boy who just wants to be like everyone else.

 

Quite often, when the seizures stop, the mood disorder variations increase. Seizures are very good at "resetting" the brain, not unlike a round of ECT does. When they are gone, both depression and mania are likely to rear their ugly heads. Please consider bringing your child to a pediatric psychiatrist.

 

 

a

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An interview with Richard Vetter, Distinguished Professor of Economics at Ohio University, Director of the Center for College Affordability, author of the book "Going Broke by Degrees" (those would be college degrees).

 

Some fascinating points and scary stats in this interview.

 

College Isn't for Everyone

 

 

a

 

 

ETA: You can ignore the politics of PJTV; they don't play into the actual interview.

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An interview with Richard Vetter, Distinguished Professor of Economics at Ohio University, Director of the Center for College Affordability, author of the book "Going Broke by Degrees" (those would be college degrees).

 

Some fascinating points and scary stats in this interview.

 

College Isn't for Everyone

 

 

a

 

 

ETA: You can ignore the politics of PJTV; they don't play into the actual interview.

 

how does that feed into the thoughts and beliefs that college is for the elites, though? If not as many go, because their particular job doesn't need the degree (bellboy, ie) then you fall into the have and have not.

 

and how about the thought of going to college to further your education, perhaps because your HS education was not that spectacular?

 

I think many need college not because their job requires it, but because they have no real education.

 

just thinking outloud-not wedded to any one of my ideas

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An interview with Richard Vetter, Distinguished Professor of Economics at Ohio University, Director of the Center for College Affordability, author of the book "Going Broke by Degrees" (those would be college degrees).

 

Some fascinating points and scary stats in this interview.

 

College Isn't for Everyone

 

Dh and I enjoyed that video, thanks!

 

how does that feed into the thoughts and beliefs that college is for the elites, though? If not as many go, because their particular job doesn't need the degree (bellboy, ie) then you fall into the have and have not.

 

and how about the thought of going to college to further your education, perhaps because your HS education was not that spectacular?

 

I think many need college not because their job requires it, but because they have no real education.

 

just thinking outloud-not wedded to any one of my ideas

 

I've long thought along these lines, but more recently I've been quizzing my various nieces, nephews, kids, kids' girlfriends, etc. There is just too much debt. I'd say $30,000 is average. That's too much for a young person who is working part-time at a low-paying job. I'd rather those kids had been out working and doing some Teaching Company courses at home to keep up their studious side until they were really ready to pay for college or choose a vocation that would pay for it. $30,000 is a real burden to start out life with, and sometimes their parents owe college money, too.

 

Julie

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how does that feed into the thoughts and beliefs that college is for the elites, though? If not as many go, because their particular job doesn't need the degree (bellboy, ie) then you fall into the have and have not.

 

I don't get it. This world is no Utopia. There would be haves and have nots even if everyone had a college degree.

 

:confused:

Rosie

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I don't get it. This world is no Utopia. There would be haves and have nots even if everyone had a college degree.

 

:confused:

Rosie

 

I believe what she is talking about is the opportunities, correct me if I am mistaken. Many jobs here require a bachelor's degree to even apply. Work experience is not as important as the degree in many areas. My dh has 30 years of experience in his field, however there are many jobs he is more than qualified for, but would not get because he has no college degree.

 

So unless the bellboy goes back to school for a degree, he may never be able to be paid more than a bellboy.

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I believe what she is talking about is the opportunities, correct me if I am mistaken. Many jobs here require a bachelor's degree to even apply. Work experience is not as important as the degree in many areas. My dh has 30 years of experience in his field, however there are many jobs he is more than qualified for, but would not get because he has no college degree.

 

So unless the bellboy goes back to school for a degree, he may never be able to be paid more than a bellboy.

 

:iagree:

 

I know several adults in this same scenario. They are all sending their kids to college though on varying paths (some cc, some 4 year, some combo). Many of the adults themselves are working on their degrees in order to be able to accept the "better" positions, but it's far more difficult now than if they'd gone to college when they were fresh out of school or close to it.

 

I only know of two (different) parents IRL who didn't want their kids to go to college and that's because they followed Dad into business or trades (not a bad path if the kids want it).

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I believe what she is talking about is the opportunities, correct me if I am mistaken. Many jobs here require a bachelor's degree to even apply. Work experience is not as important as the degree in many areas. My dh has 30 years of experience in his field, however there are many jobs he is more than qualified for, but would not get because he has no college degree.

 

So unless the bellboy goes back to school for a degree, he may never be able to be paid more than a bellboy.

 

:iagree:

 

I know several adults in this same scenario. They are all sending their kids to college though on varying paths (some cc, some 4 year, some combo). Many of the adults themselves are working on their degrees in order to be able to accept the "better" positions, but it's far more difficult now than if they'd gone to college when they were fresh out of school or close to it.

 

I only know of two (different) parents IRL who didn't want their kids to go to college and that's because they followed Dad into business or trades (not a bad path if the kids want it).

 

This is one of those things that frustrates me to no end. While I think that university/college is important for certain careers and those who are interested, I think it's appalling that it's required for career paths where a degree really isn't necessary. Even back in the 1980s, a Bachelor's degree was very helpful in getting past the paper screening for a number of jobs.

 

Then there are unfair practices. eg in MA you can go to a vo-tec high school and graduate ready to get your license as a hairdresser, but you cannot attend a private hairdressing school until you are 18. It's not alway easy to get into the vo-tec schools due to demand.

 

The other thing that bothers me is that there have to be wage ceilings for certain jobs, when things such as loyalty, experience and other pluses are not remunerated. Why shouldn't someone who is at the top of what they can do well not be paid more after 20 or 30 years than someone who has been there 5, even if they are doing the same job? I understand that businesses can't pay high salaries for every job, of course, but bonuses, profit sharing, etc, could all come into play. I also understand that this is unlikely to happen in a wide scale.

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