The Flu vs. WWI

[Ray]

WWI 8.5 million killed.

Flu 20 million killed.

 

 

Missed the 'should we get the flu shot thread', but saw in the chapter notes in Why Zebras don’t get ulcers, Sapolsky.

 

Today our arms are sore a bit.

[mommaduck]

Good luck with that.

[lionfamily1999]

Good luck with that.

:iagree:

[Gwenhwyfar]

we're getting ours monday or tuesday.

 

i suspect you'll likely find more people here who are "against" the idea than you will in the average population. ;)

[misidawnrn]

no flu shots given in our house...I should find out this week whether I lose my job over it. The flu has been around since the beginning of time 6,000+ years for new Earth and eons for old earth believers and WW1 only lasted 4 1/2 years. I will take my chances with the flu.

[LibraryLover]

Move along, move along, there's nobody sane to see here.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

WWI 8.5 million killed.

Flu 20 million killed.

 

 

Missed the 'should we get the flu shot thread', but saw in the chapter notes in Why Zebras don’t get ulcers, Sapolsky.

 

Today our arms are sore a bit.

 

I have a bit of a sore throat, but I imagine that is from the cough my son had had for a while and not from the mist.

 

Read Gina Kolata's book about the Flu, it's well done.

[Mrs Mungo]

We do flu shots. Eta: we don't do the mist.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[Snickerdoodle]

What period of time do you mean with the 20 million? The same as the length of WW1?

[RoughCollie]

What period of time do you mean with the 20 million? The same as the length of WW1?

 

Much shorter.

 

The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed more people than the Great War, known today as World War I (WWI), at somewhere between 20 and 40 million people. It has been cited as the most devastating epidemic in recorded world history. More people died of influenza in a single year than in four-years of the Black Death Bubonic Plague from 1347 to 1351. Known as "Spanish Flu" or "La Grippe" the influenza of 1918-1919 was a global disaster.

http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

[Garga]

.

[Ravin]

The the thing is, an epidemic flu would almost certainly be of a newly mutated strain that cropped up and spread quickly. One that lethal is one that tends to hit the young and healthy very hard, not just the usual people vulnerable to flu--the very young, the very old, the immune and respiratory compromised.

 

More to the point, it wouldn't be one of the 3 strains protected against in the seasonal flu vaccine. Those are chosen based on predictions of which will be the most common three in the coming year; like with H1N1, a new epidemic strain would take time to identify and produce vaccine against--by which time with a strain as virulent as the 1918-1919 epidemic strain, millions would have already gotten sick and likely even with modern measures (anti-viral drugs, quarantine measures, ability to deal with complications, etc.) hundreds of thousands or millions would have already died before a vaccine could be produced.

[Heatherwith4]

Move along, move along, there's nobody sane to see here.

:lol:

[Tohru]

Much shorter.

 

The influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 killed more people than the Great War, known today as World War I (WWI), at somewhere between 20 and 40 million people. It has been cited as the most devastating epidemic in recorded world history. More people died of influenza in a single year than in four-years of the Black Death Bubonic Plague from 1347 to 1351. Known as "Spanish Flu" or "La Grippe" the influenza of 1918-1919 was a global disaster.

http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

 

I really, really tried to walk away from this thread, but then I read this.

 

A few years back, I did a research paper in college over this specific epidemic. The information that is missing is that this was an accidentally induced tragedy. Soldiers were vaccinated then being allowed back into the general population. They were highly contagious and unfortunately the virus spread like wildfire and killed many people.

 

President Ford verified this information in 1976 during that Swine Flu epidemic. Any one can get the information by requesting the information from the government via the Freedom of Information Act.

 

From the website that was linked:

Of the U.S. soldiers who died in Europe, half of them fell to the influenza virus and not to the enemy (Deseret News). An estimated 43,000 servicemen mobilized for WWI died of influenza (Crosby)

The death rate for 15 to 34-year-olds of influenza and pneumonia were 20 times higher in 1918 than in previous years (Taubenberger)

 

a first wave of influenza appeared early in the spring of 1918 in Kansas and in military camps throughout the US. Few noticed the epidemic in the midst of the war.

 

Men across the nation were mobilizing to join the military and the cause. As they came together, they brought the virus with them and to those they contacted.

Edited October 16, 2010 by jadedone80
Add information

[Perry]

nm. I'm not getting into this.

[mommaduck]

Bean dip, anyone?

[Snowfall]

Hmmm...I changed my mind and will have some bean dip. :)

Edited October 16, 2010 by Snowfall

[Peela]

WWI 8.5 million killed.

Flu 20 million killed.

 

 

Missed the 'should we get the flu shot thread', but saw in the chapter notes in Why Zebras don’t get ulcers, Sapolsky.

 

Today our arms are sore a bit.

 

I guess ignorance is bliss.

[Tree House Academy]

Glad you are enjoying the chemicals in your arm. Considering that 20 million stat includes mostly the elderly and extremely young and my family does not fit in either of those categories, I think we will take our chances. We might even get the flu *gasp* and there is a 99% chance, we will live from it.

 

Here is my thought. I am a Christian. I believe that when it is your time to die, you will die. If you have the flu, you may die of that. If you don't, you may be hit by a big neon pink bus on the sidewalk. However, if it isn't your time to go, you could darn near get e-bola and live. Besides...I have a 100% guarantee that none of us are going to get out of this life alive.

 

WWI 8.5 million killed.

Flu 20 million killed.

 

 

Missed the 'should we get the flu shot thread', but saw in the chapter notes in Why Zebras don’t get ulcers, Sapolsky.

 

Today our arms are sore a bit.

[Mrs Mungo]

Glad you are enjoying the chemicals in your arm. Considering that 20 million stat includes mostly the elderly and extremely young and my family does not fit in either of those categories, I think we will take our chances. We might even get the flu *gasp* and there is a 99% chance, we will live from it.

 

Here is my thought. I am a Christian. I believe that when it is your time to die, you will die. If you have the flu, you may die of that. If you don't, you may be hit by a big neon pink bus on the sidewalk. However, if it isn't your time to go, you could darn near get e-bola and live. Besides...I have a 100% guarantee that none of us are going to get out of this life alive.

 

My son has a rare lung disease. I'm not taking the chance of him getting sick if I can avoid it, so we get flu shots. You don't have to be snarky about it. It's a personal choice based on each individual family's medical needs and circumstances.

 

I'm a Christian too, but at times such as these I am reminded of the following story:

A farmer is in Iowa during a flood. The river is overflowing. Water is surrounding the farmer’s home up to his front porch. As he is standing there, a boat comes up. The man in the boat says, “Jump in, and I’ll take you to safety.”

 

The farmer crosses his arms and says stubbornly, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.” The boat goes away.

 

The water rises to the second story. Another boat comes up. The man says to the farmer, who is now at the second floor window, “Hurry, jump in. I’ll save you.”

 

The farmer again says, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.” The boat goes away.

 

Now the water is inching over the roof. As the farmer stands on the roof, a helicopter comes over, and drops a ladder. The pilot yells down to the farmer, “I’ll save you. Climb the ladder.”

 

The farmer yells back, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.”

 

The helicopter goes away. The water continues to rise and sweeps the farmer off the roof into the swiftly moving water. Unfortunately, he drowns.

The farmer goes to heaven. God sees him and says, “What are you doing here?” The farmer says, “I put my trust in you, and you let me down.”

God says, “What do you mean, let you down? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!”

Edited October 16, 2010 by Mrs Mungo
fixing the weird thing my quote did

[Perry]

Considering that 20 million stat includes mostly the elderly and extremely young

wiki

The unusually severe disease killed between 2% and 20% of those infected, as opposed to the usual flu epidemic mortality rate of 0.1%.[22][25] Another unusual feature of this pandemic was that it mostly killed young adults, with 99% of pandemic influenza deaths occurring in people under 65, and more than half in young adults 20 to 40 years old.[37] This is unusual since influenza is normally most deadly to the very young (under age 2) and the very old (over age 70), and may have been due to partial protection caused by exposure to a previous Russian flu pandemic of 1889.[38]

 

[Tree House Academy]

wiki The unusually severe disease killed between 2% and 20% of those infected, as opposed to the usual flu epidemic mortality rate of 0.1%.[22][25] Another unusual feature of this pandemic was that it mostly killed young adults, with 99% of pandemic influenza deaths occurring in people under 65, and more than half in young adults 20 to 40 years old.[37] This is unusual since influenza is normally most deadly to the very young (under age 2) and the very old (over age 70), and may have been due to partial protection caused by exposure to a previous Russian flu pandemic of 1889.[38]

 

Yes, but does the current flu shot contain some crazy pandemic strain? The mortality rate in H1N1 did not even reach the average 20K per year! I am NOT going to spend my time fretting over H1N1 this year. It turned out to be not even CLOSE to what they were expecting (Praise God). Again, my faith...

 

Oh...and I loathe Wikipedia...it is EDITABLE material. Not exactly factual at all times when one can edit the information and input thei own on the actual site!

[Perry]

Yes, but does the current flu shot contain some crazy pandemic strain? The mortality rate in H1N1 did not even reach the average 20K per year! I am NOT going to spend my time fretting over H1N1 this year. It turned out to be not even CLOSE to what they were expecting (Praise God). Again, my faith...

:confused: I was responding to your claim that those 20 million deaths were mostly in the elderly and the young. They weren't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh...and I loathe Wikipedia...it is EDITABLE material. Not exactly factual at all times when one can edit the information and input thei own on the actual site!

I agree, but the original source is not available on the web. Since I have actually read the original article, I'm comfortable posting the wiki information.

[Tree House Academy]

:confused: I was responding to your claim that those 20 million deaths were mostly in the elderly and the young. They weren't.

 

But they are. H1N1 Pandemic didn't come close to causing 20,000 (not 20 MILLION?) deaths. REGULAR seasonal flu is what is stated as having cause 20K deaths and those, in fact, ARE usually in the very old and very young. H1N1 was the exception to that "rule" (in that younger people were dying) during my lifetime, but, again, it didn't cause 20K deaths, either.

[LittleIzumi]

But they are. H1N1 Pandemic didn't come close to causing 20,000 (not 20 MILLION?) deaths. REGULAR seasonal flu is what is stated as having cause 20K deaths and those, in fact, ARE usually in the very old and very young. H1N1 was the exception to that "rule" (in that younger people were dying) during my lifetime, but, again, it didn't cause 20K deaths, either.

 

:confused: I thought this was about the 1918 pandemic, not H1N1?

[Perry]

But they are. H1N1 Pandemic didn't come close to causing 20,000 (not 20 MILLION?) deaths. REGULAR seasonal flu is what is stated as having cause 20K deaths and those, in fact, ARE usually in the very old and very young. H1N1 was the exception to that "rule" (in that younger people were dying) during my lifetime, but, again, it didn't cause 20K deaths, either.

I don't understand.

 

The 20 million deaths that Ray mentioned was the estimate (considered a very LOW estimate by most flu researchers) of how many deaths resulted from the Spanish flu of 1918-1919. At least I think that's what he was talking about. During THAT pandemic, most of the deaths were in younger people, not elderly/young. Many estimate 50-100 million deaths, rather than 20 million.

 

Last year's H1N1 pandemic turned out to have low mortality. Last year's H1N1 will *probably* become the seasonal strain from now on (until we get a new pandemic), and while last year it was called pandemic, now it's going to be called seasonal, even though it's exactly the same strain.

[Perry]

 

:confused: I thought this was about the 1918 pandemic, not H1N1?

That was what I thought, but it's a little confusing because Spanish flu was caused by an H1N1 virus also, although the 2009 H1N1 is different than the 1918 H1N1.

[Tree House Academy]

:confused: I thought this was about the 1918 pandemic, not H1N1?

 

I gotcha. This is where I was getting confused.

 

I will say that the pandemic in 1918 was a different time with much less medical help available, but that is neither here nor there. I, for some reason, thought the OP was speaking of the current H1N1 just based on the fact that he got the shot (this year). The current vaccine likely doesn't have the Spanish Flu variant in it. LOL

[babysparkler]

We almost lost our daughter to H1N1 last year. As a child, I nearly died a couple times from the flu. We choose every year to get the flu shot for our whole family because we are "at-risk" (we were unable to get the h1n1 shot last year in time, obviously).

 

If you are "at-risk" you should get it, if not... don't. Why is this a big debate every year? I guess I just don't get it.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

That was what I thought, but it's a little confusing because Spanish flu was caused by an H1N1 virus also, although the 2009 H1N1 is different than the 1918 H1N1.

 

Perry I trust your opinion:) Will you and your children be getting the flu shot this year? Have you heard of any problems? I usually get the flu shot but I get nervous regarding ds since he has severe food allergies but not egg:) I just worry that his allergies are due to an over-reactive immune system so to speak:)

[Perry]

Dh has already had his, kids and I will get ours next week. Kids will get Flumist, I'll get the shot (I'm too old for Flumist :glare:). Haven't heard of any problems.

[DianeW88]

We get our flu shots every year. They work. We haven't died from them either. :lol:

 

Diane W.

married for 22 years

homeschooling 3 kiddos for 16 years

[Ray]

I made this thread on a lark, with new toy-IPod Touch. Trying out the Kindle app, reading the Why Don't Zebras Get Ulcers book. It was there I noticed the WWI / Flu footnote ;though the book is about stress similiar to Stress Of Life.

The 1918 Influenza Pandemic triggered my memory of two previous threads I had browsed earlier this week. Our choice to acquire flu shots was not associated with the historical footnote.

But, boy my my really crazy the digital clawings dug into the 960-by-640 Retina display!

Fair enough though, JJoyce I'm not, cheers to more clarity in the future. Thank you to the more hospitable posters!

[Parrothead]

 

Today our arms are sore a bit.

I hope you lot are not sore for long. I've never had the flu shot, it is sore like a tetanus shot? Advil might help if it is really bad.

[Perry]

Perry I trust your opinion:) Will you and your children be getting the flu shot this year? Have you heard of any problems? I usually get the flu shot but I get nervous regarding ds since he has severe food allergies but not egg:) I just worry that his allergies are due to an over-reactive immune system so to speak:)

 

Dh has already had his, kids and I will get ours next week. Kids will get Flumist, I'll get the shot (I'm too old for Flumist :glare:). Haven't heard of any problems.

 

Sorry, that was rushed. I was on my way out the door.

 

This year's vaccine contains 3 strains:

* an A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)–like virus;

* an A/Perth/16/2009 (H3N2)–like virus;

* and a B/Brisbane/60/2008–like virus.

 

The first is the same exact strain that was last years pandemic vaccine. The 3rd (type B) is exactly the same one that was in last years seasonal vaccine. So the only one that is (sort of) new is the H3N2 strain, and that one is very similar to what was in both the 2008 and 2009 seasonal vaccines. So no one is expecting any surprises.

 

Regarding egg allergies- recent research indicates that it's probably safe for people with egg allergies to receive the flu vaccine, if given a certain way.

 

Flu vaccines called generally safe for egg-allergic patients

 

Robert Roos News Editor

 

Oct 15, 2010 (CIDRAP News) – Most people with an egg allergy can safely receive an influenza vaccine, and they don't need a skin test first, according to new recommendations from the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (AAAAI).

Medical authorities have long urged caution concerning flu shots for those with egg allergies because of the concern that residual egg protein in the vaccines, which are grown in eggs, might cause a reaction. But the AAAAI says several recent studies have shown that egg-allergic people can be safely vaccinated.

The guidelines advise that allergic patients can be vaccinated with either a two-step, graded approach or with a single dose, followed in either case by 30 minutes of observation for allergic symptoms. The guidelines were prepared by Matthew J. Greenhawt, MD, MBA, of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, and James T. Li, MD, PhD, of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn.

"There has been tremendous growth over the past year in demonstrating that TIV [trivalent influenza vaccine] (and H1N1 [vaccine]) are safe for egg allergic individuals to receive," the AAAAI statement says. "While a few concepts bear further study, such as the safety of these vaccines in individuals with severe allergy to egg, it appears that most egg allergic patients can safety receive influenza vaccination if desired."

The group recommends use of the vaccine containing the lowest amount of ovalbumin, even though there is no conclusive evidence that ovalbumin is what triggers adverse reactions to flu vaccine in egg-allergic people. Most manufacturers now list the ovalbumin content for each vaccine lot, and studies last year showed that the listed amounts were accurate, the statement says.

The AAAAI experts also say egg-allergic people no longer routinely need skin testing for sensitivity to the vaccine before they are immunized. "Though skin testing has been used successfully in the past, recent data have indicated that neither prick testing nor intradermal skin testing using the vaccine is predictive of one's ability to tolerate the vaccine, nor was testing necessary to receive a booster dose from a different lot than the original dose," they state.

The statement recommends that patients who have a history of suspected egg allergy be evaluated by an allergist. But even if the egg allergy is confirmed, the patient can still be vaccinated using either the two-dose or single-dose protocol followed by observation.

The two-step approach involves first giving the patient 10% of the age-appropriate dose, waiting 30 minutes, and then, if no symptoms develop, following up with a 90% dose. The patient should be observed for another 30 minutes after the second dose. If a reaction occurs after any step, further steps should be withheld and the patient should be referred to a vaccine allergy expert, the AAAAI advises.

The current flu vaccine information statement from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) says people with severe egg allergy should not be vaccinated. The AAAAI says three recent studies have indicated that flu vaccines are safe even for such patients, but the study samples were small.

 

As a parent, this would make me nervous, and if my kids had a history of anaphylaxis to eggs I'd skip the vaccine and get everyone else in the family vaccinated to try to keep flu out of the house. But for a not-so-serious allergy, I think I'd be okay with it.

 

As far as concerns about an over-active immune system- just remember that the vaccine is causing exactly the same type of immune response that the body has when confronted with a naturally occurring infection. We are getting bombarded with infectious agents all the time, and our immune system is frequently warding off infections that we never even know we have. About 30% of the population is exposed to the flu each year (meaning we can measure an antibody response) although probably only about 1/2 of those actually get sick. So If he doesn't get the vaccine, he is very likely to have an immune response from contact with the actual virus instead.

 

Hope that makes sense. :)

[Dana]

I usually get the flu shot but I get nervous regarding ds since he has severe food allergies but not egg:) I just worry that his allergies are due to an over-reactive immune system so to speak:)

 

My son has anaphyllaxis to nuts (and a severe dairy allergy). I have him get the flu shot. When he was 5 and was in the hospital for his anaphylactic reaction, they served him food with dairy. We didn't let him eat anything there. If the flu shot may help keep him out of the hospital,that's what I'm doing since I can't trust them to feed him safely if he's admitted. :glare:

[RoughCollie]

When DH and I got our flu shots a week ago, the nurse told us that the mist has preservatives in it, and the shot cannot be given to people who are allergic to latex. She thought the shot was better than the flu mist because of the preservatives.

 

She never mentioned that the CDC says the flu mist is not for people over age 50. She did not comment when I said the shot had latex in it, so I don't know whether it does or not.

 

We had the shot. The boys will have a choice, except for DS2 because he is highly allergic to latex. DD already had the mist.

 

DD and DS1 go to a very large PS. They catch everything that comes down the pike. Last September, DS1 had H1N1, and none of us had had that vaccine because it was not available here at that time. I have severe heart disease. There is no way we will take a chance on not getting the regular flu shot.

[grace'smom]

Do the Walgreens, etc. have children's vaccines or do you have to go to your pediatrician for that? Also, how old does your child need to be in order to receive the adult vaccine?

 

Just trying to avoid getting my child sick while trying to vaccinate her, LOL.

[Perry]

Do the Walgreens' date=' etc. have children's vaccines or do you have to go to your pediatrician for that? Also, how old does your child need to be in order to receive the adult vaccine?

 

Just trying to avoid getting my child sick while trying to vaccinate her, LOL.[/quote']

Most pharmacies will give kids (<18) the vaccine if you have a prescription from their doctor. The doctor can call it in.