Over the top competition, or am I being unreasonable?

[Perry]

Against my better judgment, I allowed my oldest dd to try out for the ps pom squad. They perform at games, but the emphasis is on competition. Under the current coach, the squad has competed and placed well on the national level. This is a big, big deal to these girls. They practice an outrageous number of hours per week. It is a huge commitment, and it isn't cheap.

 

The coach has announced a new policy that participation in each competition is going to be on a try out basis. (They had to try out to make the squad in the first place, but performing at competitions is going to require an additional tryout.) Several girls were told today that they wouldn't be performing at an upcoming local competition, so she means business.

 

These dances are choreographed with all 15 girls included. All the girls perform at the games. If they decide to remove someone for the competition, the dance has to be changed and adapted for fewer girls.

 

This seems ridiculous to me. If they're good enough to make the squad in the first place and to perform at games, it seems to me they ought to be able to compete in all the competitions.

 

The national competition is in Orlando in February. All the girls on the team are required to go, whether they are allowed to dance or not. I am especially annoyed, because we (family members) need to decide *now* if we want to go in order to get discount airline tickets. But they won't have try outs for nationals until January. I am not interested in schlepping the whole family to Orlando if dd isn't even going to be allowed to dance.

 

Dh thinks it's a reasonable policy, no different than basketball, where many players sit on the bench. This seems different to me, because of the nature of dance, but I'm having trouble articulating why.

 

I've never been an athlete. I don't get this whole cut throat competition mentality. Am I nuts, or is this just totally over the top?

[gingersmom]

My daughter is on a sychronized skating team.

 

This year I think she will have 20 kids on her team and 18 kids will skate at competitions. You do not find out who is not skating till literally about 2 minutes before you get on the ice. All the girls are dressed, hair, makeup, etc. Then you get the dreaded tap that you will be skating on and right off.

 

There are many reasons you may be pulled and you usually can guess from practice who is going to get pulled at a competition. The girls all practice together but when the whole routine is skated in practice they will pull 2 girls out.

 

You are required to travel to every competition whether you skate or not.

 

There have been kids who have gotten injured right before a competition and other reasons at the last second someone can't skate.

 

We have amazing coaches and even if you are an alternate at a competition you are involved in all practices and all get togethers, etc.

 

There have been parents who have flown many hours only not to see their kids skate. It stinks but we all chalk it up to a learning experience.

[DianeW88]

My dd is doing the same thing with our local high school. Same rules apply. Everyone dances at the games. Not everyone gets to dance in the competitions. Pretty standard. As is the outrageous price tag for all of it. However, our coach grades the girls on each dance. The top 10 are announced out loud, according to their placement. The bottom 10 dancers are asked to see the coach for their ranking. So the girls have a pretty good idea of where they stand.

 

Diane W.

married for 22 years

homeschooling 3 kiddos for 16 years

[EarleneW]

Being involved in All-Star competitive cheerleading for the past 7 seasons as a parent and 9 before that as a coach- Yes, very reasonable. You take the best to competition- this is the policy at all the schools around here as well.

[LibraryLover]

I don't see this attitude as particulary growthful or healthy for a young woman, and I think our family would say no to this particular activity.

 

However, cheerleading is not a big thing in these here parts. If one lives where this is very important or the only cool thing in town, and your dc really loves it, how do you proceed? If your kid is a bottom 10, or whatever...are you, is the young person... ok with that? Can you all have fun cheering for the team as a whole if this happens? Are you fundamentally OK with how it's all done?

[fhjmom]

That is the way it is often done around here, too. Tryout are generally given for each routine, which change from week to week. The girls not picked to dance still have to go as backups in case someone gets injured.

 

I am trying very hard to steer my younger DD away from competitive cheer after going through things like this with older DD, but she still occasionally talks about wanting to cheer. She just made the first level of competitive soccer team so I am hoping that holds her interest for a while. :)

[LG Gone Wild]

Against my better judgment, I allowed my oldest dd to try out for the ps pom squad. They perform at games, but the emphasis is on competition. Under the current coach, the squad has competed and placed well on the national level. This is a big, big deal to these girls. They practice an outrageous number of hours per week. It is a huge commitment, and it isn't cheap.

 

The coach has announced a new policy that participation in each competition is going to be on a try out basis. (They had to try out to make the squad in the first place, but performing at competitions is going to require an additional tryout.) Several girls were told today that they wouldn't be performing at an upcoming local competition, so she means business.

 

These dances are choreographed with all 15 girls included. All the girls perform at the games. If they decide to remove someone for the competition, the dance has to be changed and adapted for fewer girls.

 

This seems ridiculous to me. If they're good enough to make the squad in the first place and to perform at games, it seems to me they ought to be able to compete in all the competitions.

 

The national competition is in Orlando in February. All the girls on the team are required to go, whether they are allowed to dance or not. I am especially annoyed, because we (family members) need to decide *now* if we want to go in order to get discount airline tickets. But they won't have try outs for nationals until January. I am not interested in schlepping the whole family to Orlando if dd isn't even going to be allowed to dance.

 

Dh thinks it's a reasonable policy, no different than basketball, where many players sit on the bench. This seems different to me, because of the nature of dance, but I'm having trouble articulating why.

 

I've never been an athlete. I don't get this whole cut throat competition mentality. Am I nuts, or is this just totally over the top?

 

This is probably the norm in school competitions BUT normal doesn't mean right. In the grand scheme of things, pom squad competitions are really insignificant even the state championships.

 

If you aren't up for it, don't do it because you'll grow extremely annoyed and resentful with every passing minute and dollar.

[Harriet Vane]

This is probably the norm in school competitions BUT normal doesn't mean right. In the grand scheme of things, pom squad competitions are really insignificant even the state championships.

 

If you aren't up for it, don't do it because you'll grow extremely annoyed and resentful with every passing minute and dollar.

 

:iagree:

[Tap]

Depends....what do you expect your child to get out of this expensive sport? Is it just about the performance, or is it about the process?

Is it about the glory or the:

hard work,

determination,

commitment,

working at something to succeed...working at something and failing-picking herself up and moving on,

performing in front of people-keeping composure during the good and bad,

confidence,

standing up to peer-pressure,

good sportsmanship,

dealing with pressure of performance,

winning and losing,

being part of a group-working within the group-standing up to the group,

taking instructions from a coach,

physical fitness for the fun of it,

.....

 

 

My son was on a very, very competitive swim team. We drove him 45min each way, 6 days a week. We did it for many of the reasons above. We never did it for the glory of swimming. There will always be someone better. There will always be someone who beats a 'best time' or someone who gets replaced on a pom squad. The performance is not not what it was about for us....it was about all that he gained along the way. Kids often go to a 3 day swim meet to swim in 3 events, some not even lasting a minute! We go, not only for our son, but to support the team. Once it wasn't worth it to him anymore....we stopped attending some of the special travel meets. Then within a year, he decided to stop swimming. It would be easy to regret the $6,000yr we spent, but we don't because what he learned, he will carry with him for the rest of his life. The skills he learned and the person he discovered inside himself, would have never surfaced had it not been for those years spent in the pool.

 

If you won't know about her chances of going until the last minute, and you suspect that she may be close to the cut, then don't buy the ticket until the last minute and hope (and pray) that you will be able to get a cheap 'fill the plane' price. If you really want to take the whole family, then have a back up plan and use it for a family vacation.

[Perry]

Depends....what do you expect your child to get out of this expensive sport? Is it just about the performance, or is it about the process?

 

She also does studio dance, and she gets all those things that you list from dance. Poms is a different story. While there are some positive life lessons, there are far more that I would consider negative and unhealthy.

[Perry]

Thanks for the input. I shouldn't be surprised to hear that it's commonplace. For those who have kids in competitive dance, do your studios also require tryouts for competitions? Ours doesn't, and I've never heard of it. I'm wondering what the difference is. Maybe because poms is a school activity instead of private?

 

It just seems like a sad direction. Maybe next they'll start making the band and orchestra students try out to be able to play in the concerts.

[I talk to the trees]

T Maybe next they'll start making the band and orchestra students try out to be able to play in the concerts.

 

:DIf they did that in my neck of the woods, they would not have enough players to cover parts!

 

I think that sort of policy is absolutely absurd, and just another way for people operating these competitive sports to exercise psychological control over the participants and suck in more money from the parents who want to be able to give their children every possible opportunity to do the things they enjoy. Pathetic, imo.

[Pretty in Pink]

Sad to say but that is pretty much standard practice.

[KidsHappen]

Can I just say how incredibly relieved I was to hear that my dd did not make squad. Of course, I kept that to myself but I was doing a little happy dance inside. She made Volleyball instead which IMO is a much more reasonable sport. All players play every game but the best players play at championship and nationals. It makes sense to me as the goal at that point is a win for the school.

[Liz CA]

She also does studio dance, and she gets all those things that you list from dance. Poms is a different story. While there are some positive life lessons, there are far more that I would consider negative and unhealthy.

 

I should probably not even comment since I don't have daughters but the above sentence seems to answer your question pretty much. I personally have a sort of aversion to this- maybe because I am misinformed about the actual purpose of this *sport* but let her go all out on dancing and gently cut off the cheering. You may be able to point out that the cost is way over the top which seems to be true judging from several remarks here.

[Bee]

Neither is a competitive dance studio. Studio #1 only has a yearly recital. Many of the students skipped multiple classes throughout the year so they could participate in other after-school activities. Dd didn't miss a class for 7 or 8 years despite how ill she felt. The person who ran the studio never noticed or cared how much work dd was putting into it. Honestly, now it's so much nicer to see at least some of the kids take dance seriously at dd's current dance studio. I also see some parents who take it more seriously than their children do but I'm trying not to be one of them.

[Danestress]

My son is a competitive tennis player, and it's pretty normal to have to wait until the week before a tournament to find out if a kid qualifies, though we have not started flying to competition yet, I definitely hear the stories. His coach told me once that he flew to Jakarta for a tournament once because he was sooooo close to qualifying, and then he didn't. So people do deal with this, and I would look into whether you can just delay on the tickets. I can't imagine that booking airline tickets yourself in, say, December, would be THAT much more than booking them now, and it's sort of a gamble anyway. If she sprains her ankle in November, you will be glad you waited.

[Perry]

So people do deal with this, and I would look into whether you can just delay on the tickets.

 

The coach has some group rate deal that would probably save us about $700 if we commit now.

 

 

It isn't the money so much as the principle. These girls were selected to perform as a squad. If they (coaches) didn't think they were good enough to compete, I don't know why they chose them for the team in the first place.

[Karen in CO]

It isn't the money so much as the principle. These girls were selected to perform as a squad. If they (coaches) didn't think they were good enough to compete, I don't know why they chose them for the team in the first place.

I really don't see this as fundamentally different that my son's highschool basketball. Kids are chosen for the team. All the kids practice. Most kids warm the bench. The coach tries to give most of the kids a chance to play in games, but he is also focused on getting his team to win the games since that is part of his job. In a championship or play off game his "starters" are going to start the game and only be replaced if they are injured. The starters earned their right to get the play time. That is the nature of a team sport.

[Catwoman]

She also does studio dance, and she gets all those things that you list from dance. Poms is a different story. While there are some positive life lessons, there are far more that I would consider negative and unhealthy.

 

Unless she absolutely loves it, and won't be devastated if she isn't chosen to compete, I think you've essentially answered your own question.

 

Perhaps there's something else she would prefer to do instead of Poms?

 

Cat

[Pretty in Pink]

It's a competitive team. The goal is to win. That's why some kids make the team and not all get to cheer/dance. It's not about fairness, it's about winning.

[Dmmetler]

Is there a size limit for competition?

 

I know that in some sports/events, there is-and if you can only field 12 or 10 girls, having 15 is reasonable in case of injuries, but there simply will have to be some left out. My DD is in a cheer program and I'm thinking this might be the case for the older girls, once they start more of the tumbling and stunting in performance. (At level 1, where DD is, it's "dance around with pompoms and look cute").

 

 

 

The other possibility is that the coach has had a problem with girls with poor attendance or attitudes showing up for competition and hurting the entire squad. By reserving the option to "bench" at the last moment, and making sure parents know it, that gives her a leg to stand on if it becomes necessary. I've had such problems with school groups before-there are always some kids who sign up because it looks good to be on the team, but don't want to put in the time. It's bad enough in local performance, where the group ends up looking bad, but in competition, it can easily undo a whole year's work for one person to be unready.

[DianeW88]

I don't see this attitude as particulary growthful or healthy for a young woman, and I think our family would say no to this particular activity.

 

However, cheerleading is not a big thing in these here parts. If one lives where this is very important or the only cool thing in town, and your dc really loves it, how do you proceed? If your kid is a bottom 10, or whatever...are you, is the young person... ok with that? Can you all have fun cheering for the team as a whole if this happens? Are you fundamentally OK with how it's all done?

 

Well, I think it depends on your dd. My dd is 17 and this is the first and only year she is doing this. She has spent all of her previous time training to be a classical ballerina. She's been in a very intense pre-professional program that went from 12 noon - 6:30 PM, M-F. She also happens to be a very gifted dancer and this is her passion and she loves it with all her heart. She wanted to spend her senior year doing something like drill team (which is really all dance here in Utah) just to have the experience. She still does classical ballet from 5-7 AM and then does her drill later in the day.

 

Now, having said all of that, and with all the hours she has spent taking dance with professional teachers while the other girls have been in high school, it's not surprising that my dd consistently ranks #1 in all the dances (or quite frankly, I'd demand my money back from all the dance teachers she's had over the past 10 years. :lol: JOKING, of course.) So, I can't speak to how well the other kids handle their rankings, although it does sometimes make my dd uncomfortable. It can cause resentment, and frankly, she wishes the coaches didn't do it like this, but as she's discovering with PS system....she has no power to change this. If my dd weren't as strong of a dancer, I might not like it. But, and this is another thread altogether, the MOTHERS of these girls are off the wall about this drill team stuff. It's what they live for. I'm a drop-off mom and quite frankly, could care less about it, but from what I've seen these moms are just so happy that their little precious is on the team that nothing else matters. Crazy.

 

Diane W.

married for 22 years

homeschooling 3 kiddos for 16 years

[Perry]

Unless she absolutely loves it, and won't be devastated if she isn't chosen to compete, I think you've essentially answered your own question.

 

Perhaps there's something else she would prefer to do instead of Poms?

 

Cat

 

Well, I really wasn't asking for opinions on whether she should participate or not. We don't quit commitments in the middle of the season. We won't make any decisions about next year until this season is over.

 

I was more interested in others' perspectives on requiring try outs for an already established pom squad. Apparently I'm in the minority, which is fine. It helps me put this in perspective. It doesn't necessarily change my mind.

[Perry]

Is there a size limit for competition?

 

I know that in some sports/events, there is-and if you can only field 12 or 10 girls, having 15 is reasonable in case of injuries, but there simply will have to be some left out.

 

The other possibility is that the coach has had a problem with girls with poor attendance or attitudes showing up for competition and hurting the entire squad. By reserving the option to "bench" at the last moment, and making sure parents know it, that gives her a leg to stand on if it becomes necessary. I've had such problems with school groups before-there are always some kids who sign up because it looks good to be on the team, but don't want to put in the time. It's bad enough in local performance, where the group ends up looking bad, but in competition, it can easily undo a whole year's work for one person to be unready.

 

No, size is a non-issue. There are different categories-- small group might be 15 or less, large group 16 and up. I think each competition has its own categories, but I'm not sure.

 

They can have however many girls they want.

 

There isn't a problem with attitude. Attendance is mandatory, and it isn't tested by the girls, ever. If you miss a practice you miss the next game or competition or whatever. It just isn't an issue.

 

BTW, my dd hasn't been told she's sitting out, and I think it's unlikely that she wouldn't be able to dance, so my rant isn't over sour grapes. I just am shocked and appalled at the degree of competitiveness in this and so many other activities.

[kaylk in tx]

Maybe next they'll start making the band and orchestra students try out to be able to play in the concerts.

 

around here, i know that not all the kids in marching band will go to UIL competitions. they have to prove they know the routines and the music well enough. for drill team, the girls have to try out each week on the routine they'll be doing at half-time or they don't get to perform.

[Perry]

But, and this is another thread altogether, the MOTHERS of these girls are off the wall about this drill team stuff. It's what they live for. I'm a drop-off mom and quite frankly, could care less about it, but from what I've seen these moms are just so happy that their little precious is on the team that nothing else matters. Crazy.

 

 

:iagree:

 

and I think this is a huge part of the problem. There is a very negative, catty, competitive atmosphere among the moms, and that may be part of what is turning me off so much.

[LibraryLover]

If you are fundamentally opposed to something, if you think it's wrong and unhealthy, its *right* to 'quit'. Sometimes things do not work, and some things are just wrong.

 

I do not know if this wrong or not for your family, of course. (I'm simply saying that if a child of mine unwittingly ended up in a program that compromised our values, it would not matter where in the year we found ourselves when we saw it was quittin' time).

 

Well, I really wasn't asking for opinions on whether she should participate or not. We don't quit commitments in the middle of the season. We won't make any decisions about next year until this season is over.

 

I was more interested in others' perspectives on requiring try outs for an already established pom squad. Apparently I'm in the minority, which is fine. It helps me put this in perspective. It doesn't necessarily change my mind.

[astrid]

I've got no especially pithy or insightful advice, Perry, but I can't get the image of Sue Sylvester out of my mind. :lol:

astrid

 

[Perry]

If you are fundamentally opposed to something, if you think it's wrong and unhealthy, its *right* to 'quit'. Sometimes things do not work, and some things are just wrong.

 

I do not know if this wrong or not for your family, of course. (I'm simply saying that if a child of mine unwittingly ended up in a program that compromised our values, it would not matter where in the year we found ourselves when we saw it was quittin' time).

I mostly agree with you. But it's a matter of degree. I think this is wrong, but it's not a deal breaker. There are also lessons to be learned from sticking with something for the sake of the team, even though you disagree with something in principle.

 

I think lots of things are wrong. If we quit every activity that I had issues with we wouldn't get out much. :D

[LibraryLover]

Just weigh the good & the bad and go with whatever is less bad, and more emotionally healthy for one's child and family.

 

*If *(not just this particular thing) something is more bad and less healthy, you/one all can find another activity where one's family/ dd can learn more of the good stuff you want her to learn, with less of the bad. Only your family can make the call, based on ...well, your own family and the particular needs of your child and your family. :D

 

There...not too wordy. :lol:

 

 

 

 

I mostly agree with you. But it's a matter of degree. I think this is wrong, but it's not a deal breaker. There are also lessons to be learned from sticking with something for the sake of the team, even though you disagree with something in principle.

 

I think lots of things are wrong. If we quit every activity that I had issues with we wouldn't get out much. :D

Edited August 18, 2010 by LibraryLover