Conformitism in our kids

[tofuscramble]

Do you think you should teach your children to follow the rules of authority regardless of what those rules might be or do you teach them to question authority?

 

I ask because the Facebook thread got me thinking about it. It seems a lot of people say "those are the rules, so that's what we do".

 

We are a family of non-conformists and critical thinkers. It's important to me that my kids are able to ask pertinent questions and decide for themselves what is right and wrong *before* they follow the rules.

 

:bigear:

[vonfirmath]

I want to teach my children to follow the rules of those God has set in authority over them, up to the point that the authority is telling them to break the rules God himself has set upon them.

 

It is only permissible to disobey one authority if you are obeying a higher authority.

 

I believe even the army has rules such as these. You can not make the excuse that your sergeant told you to do it if the Major has said NOT to do it.

 

(And when it comes to Facebook? They are a private entity you are volunteering to associate with. Don't like their rules? Don't volunteer to associate. You don't get to choose to follow your own rules when visiting in the house of another. I guess I'd call this the rule (of thumb) of hospitality)

Edited July 14, 2010 by vonfirmath

[charmama4]

whose authority? parents? police?

[tofuscramble]

whose authority? parents? police?

 

Parents, police, teachers, the government, society...

[Medieval Mom]

Do you think you should teach your children to follow the rules of authority regardless of what those rules might be or do you teach them to question authority?

 

I ask because the Facebook thread got me thinking about it. It seems a lot of people say "those are the rules, so that's what we do".

 

We are a family of non-conformists and critical thinkers. It's important to me that my kids are able to ask pertinent questions and decide for themselves what is right and wrong *before* they follow the rules.

 

:bigear:

 

We are also critical thinkers. If we followed the herd, we wouldn't be hsers! :D

 

What dh and I enjoy about living in the US is the historical and everyday appreciation of critical thinking and not blindly following rules. In some socialist countries we've lived in, people almost seem to have blinders on and conforming at all times is applauded. Often, people in these cultures say to their children, "This is what we do." If the child asks the inevitable "why?", the response is often, "Because that is what everyone else does."

 

I remember reading in sociology class that such behavior in the US is very much a product of which socio-economic class you are in. In lower income, less educated families, strict obedience to all authority is often expected. Upper middle class and upper class families tend to praise independence, creativity, critical thinking, questioning authority, etc. Interestingly, the children in both families may still be required to do what it is that the parent or society requires of them, for example, wearing a seat belt. But HOW the parents interact with the child is markedly different.

[charmama4]

Parents, police, teachers, the government...

ah...well parents authority: they can ask all they want "why" and I will be happy to oblige but in the end they will still do as I say.

 

police and government authority: as children they will obey the law and while they are children will educate themselves so they may change laws if they so desire when they are old enough to vote or run for office themselves. I show them that I obey the law and how I can voice my opinion on certain politcal issues by voting and talking about them with other people, such as yourself;)

 

I too want my kids to ask questions, but I also don't feel that it gives them license to disobey laws or the rules of the house. It goes with respect, at least for me.

[Medieval Mom]

A disclaimer to say that, on the other hand, we fully believe in being law-abiding citizens. We do not consider ourselves above the law. However, we would be open to discussing WHY the law was written, why we must comply, and why we may comply even if our personal opinion disagrees with the law. ;)

[tofuscramble]

We are also critical thinkers. If we followed the herd, we wouldn't be hsers! :D

 

Good point! :lol:

[Mrs Mungo]

Do you think you should teach your children to follow the rules of authority regardless of what those rules might be or do you teach them to question authority?

 

I ask because the Facebook thread got me thinking about it. It seems a lot of people say "those are the rules, so that's what we do".

 

We are a family of non-conformists and critical thinkers. It's important to me that my kids are able to ask pertinent questions and decide for themselves what is right and wrong *before* they follow the rules.

 

:bigear:

 

I think the trouble with this is too many people (not YOU, necessarily) follow their own moral code without REAL critical thinking. For example, Facebook has that rule because US law states that websites are not allowed to gather information on children under 13. You are potentially setting the website up for failure if you lie and they accidentally gather information on a child. That said, many websites allow a parent to fill out a form or call and give permission. I don't think you should break rules that might get someone else in trouble, even if it doesn't have a direct impact on you.

 

I believe even the army has rules such as these. You can not make the excuse that your sergeant told you to do it if the Major has said NOT to do it.

 

The Army does have rules about this. It even applies when there are regulations against what the sergeant has told you to do and nobody has told you otherwise. You have an obligation not to follow an unlawful order.

 

(And when it comes to Facebook? They are a private entity you are volunteering to associate with. Don't like their rules? Don't volunteer to associate. You don't get to choose to follow your own rules when visiting in the house of another. I guess I'd call this the rule (of thumb) of hospitality)

 

:iagree:

[charmama4]

We are also critical thinkers. If we followed the herd, we wouldn't be hsers! :D

 

Ain't it the truth

 

What dh and I enjoy about living in the US is the historical and everyday appreciation of critical thinking and not blindly following rules. In some socialist countries we've lived in, people almost seem to have blinders on and conforming at all times is applauded. Often, people in these cultures say to their children, "This is what we do." If the child asks the inevitable "why?", the response is often, "Because that is what everyone else does."

 

I prefer to answer their question honestly but still expect obedience.

 

I remember reading in sociology class that such behavior in the US is very much a product of which socio-economic class you are in. In lower income, less educated families, strict obedience to all authority is often expected. Upper middle class and upper class families tend to praise independence, creativity, critical thinking, questioning authority, etc. Interestingly, the children in both families may still be required to do what it is that the parent or society requires of them, for example, wearing a seat belt. But HOW the parents interact with the child is markedly different.

 

It's all about the HOW

 

 

 

This thread has made me think of something kinda weird. I'm a pagan, for generalizing the term, and for the most part they are liberal. But, b/c of my upbringing I add some conservative views in my way of thinking...

 

sorry thinking outloud :tongue_smilie:continue

[Carrie12345]

You must follow the rules while working to change them. If you can't be bothered to fight that battle, you'd better be prepared to follow it forever.

[Mrs Mungo]

This thread has made me think of something kinda weird. I'm a pagan, for generalizing the term, and for the most part they are liberal. But, b/c of my upbringing I add some conservative views in my way of thinking...

 

 

Hmmm...you seem to be implying that liberalism is about "sticking it to the man." I don't think it is. It's about questioning and working to change unjust laws. Even famous liberals who engaged in civil disobedience believed in not doing harm and not giving the establishment a reason/excuse to harm you.

 

I'm just thinking out loud too and maybe that's not at all what you were trying to say and I'm misreading. :001_smile:

[charmama4]

Hmmm...you seem to be implying that liberalism is about "sticking it to the man." I don't think it is. It's about questioning and working to change unjust laws. Even famous liberals who engaged in civil disobedience believed in not doing harm and not giving the establishment a reason/excuse to harm you.

 

I'm just thinking out loud too and maybe that's not at all what you were trying to say and I'm misreading. :001_smile:

 

You misread or I mistyped. My intention was not to imply anything negative towards liberalism or conservatism, because I feel that I am both. Is that wrong to be both? Is it possible? I'm actually finding that there are good things (and bad) about both view points. I think it's important to have both view points in order to make informed choices. But thank you Mrs. Mungo for allowing me to delve deeper into my polical persuasions. And thank you tofuscramble for this thought provoking thread.

[Mrs Mungo]

You misread or I mistyped. My intention was not to imply anything negative towards liberalism or conservatism,

 

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that you were being negative. I don't necessarily think "sticking it to the man" is a bad cause. :lol: I guess it wasn't a good turn of phrase?

[lauranc]

 

We are a family of non-conformists and critical thinkers. It's important to me that my kids are able to ask pertinent questions and decide for themselves what is right and wrong *before* they follow the rules.

 

:bigear:

 

 

This would describe our family as well. I was raised to question and consider whether something was right or wrong--- and that's how my husband and I raise our children as well. I suppose because it's what I've always done, it just seems 'normal' to me.

 

I don't know that I think it's awful to blindly follow authority, it's just not my experience and I find it curious.

[charmama4]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that you were being negative. I don't necessarily think "sticking it to the man" is a bad cause. :lol: I guess it wasn't a good turn of phrase?

 

you're silly;)

[simka2]

Mixed bag here!!!! I teach them to question everything. Now in specific regards to the facebook rule our conversation will go something like this...dd: can I have a fb?

mom: no, sweetie you are not old enough.

dd: but my friend has one?!

mom: I know sweetie but here are the rules (read rules.) Now do you think we should respect them? Could there be a reason for the rule?

 

In the end I think I will be teaching the difference between non-conformity to a peer group, and respecting rules.

 

Now on the 5th of July the police came and told us to shut down fireworks (we were rained out on the 4th) We did right then, but proceeded to light them off later. Some friends thought I was setting an example of disobeying authority. I was, but I was willing to accept the consequences. :)

[Brindee]

Do you think you should teach your children to follow the rules of authority regardless of what those rules might be or do you teach them to question authority?

 

I ask because the Facebook thread got me thinking about it. It seems a lot of people say "those are the rules, so that's what we do".

 

I want to teach my children to follow the rules of those God has set in authority over them, up to the point that the authority is telling them to break the rules God himself has set upon them.

 

It is only permissible to disobey one authority if you are obeying a higher authority.

 

I believe even the army has rules such as these. You can not make the excuse that your sergeant told you to do it if the Major has said NOT to do it.

 

(And when it comes to Facebook? They are a private entity you are volunteering to associate with. Don't like their rules? Don't volunteer to associate. You don't get to choose to follow your own rules when visiting in the house of another. I guess I'd call this the rule (of thumb) of hospitality)

 

I think the trouble with this is too many people (not YOU, necessarily) follow their own moral code without REAL critical thinking. For example, Facebook has that rule because US law states that websites are not allowed to gather information on children under 13. You are potentially setting the website up for failure if you lie and they accidentally gather information on a child. That said, many websites allow a parent to fill out a form or call and give permission. I don't think you should break rules that might get someone else in trouble, even if it doesn't have a direct impact on you.

 

The Army does have rules about this. It even applies when there are regulations against what the sergeant has told you to do and nobody has told you otherwise. You have an obligation not to follow an unlawful order.

:iagree: with these two comments. I do not believe in blindly following rules, especially when they are morally wrong or unlawful! But, being a Christian I follow the statement, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars, and unto God what is Gods." (same idea as what vonfirmath was saying) I feel that God is the highest authority, and following the laws that don't conflict with that is our obligation.

 

This FB thing is very clearly stated, and I agree with the post above, as opposed to fudging the rules to fit what you'd prefer to do. If EVERYONE fudged rules the way they see fit, it'd be a messed up world! :tongue_smilie:

Edited July 14, 2010 by Brindee

[Closeacademy]

I teach my children to question authority.

 

I don't want my children to blindly follow anyone or anyone else's rules. I want them to know themselves and their conscious well enough that they know something is wrong.

 

I don't want my children to be the type to push the button just because some "authority" figure told them to. I want them to know that they can walk away from situations that they know is not right. That they can ask questions before they make a decision or participate in an activity.

 

I want my children to question authority because authority is not always right. In fact, most times the authority makes bad decisions.:001_smile:

[Rosie_0801]

In some socialist countries we've lived in, people almost seem to have blinders on and conforming at all times is applauded. Often, people in these cultures say to their children, "This is what we do." If the child asks the inevitable "why?", the response is often, "Because that is what everyone else does."

 

 

That's not a very good quality answer, but that doesn't mean that doing something because that's what everyone does is a bad thing.

 

My intention was not to imply anything negative towards liberalism or conservatism, because I feel that I am both. Is that wrong to be both? Is it possible? I'm actually finding that there are good things (and bad) about both view points. I think it's important to have both view points in order to make informed choices.

 

I would say being able to see the good in what appears to be two opposing ideas is a sign of maturity.

 

I think this conundrum will one of the most interesting things about raising children. It is good to be obedient, except when it isn't. Then you have to be disobedient politely and reasonably, with good reasons. And accept that however good your reasons are, and however polite you are about it, you're still going to be in trouble and have to take your punishment. Fun stuff.

 

Rosie

[Hannah C.]

Hmmm. This is a very, very good question, and is making me think along lines I hadn't before.

 

Off the top of my head, I honestly can't think of one rule/law I am currently subject to that I cannot understand the reason for and therefore respect. I am also old enough to understand that to break the rule/law means consequences and be able to accept those consequences. But I am thinking of things like state and federal *law*, or rules that apply to everyone who participates in an activity or is a member of a website.

 

When it comes to individual authority figures telling my children things, I'm sure I will tell my children to simply disobey in some cases (e.g. where it could be something which could lead to child abuse). I would also hope to be able to discuss different rules/laws with my children especially as they get older, explaining/finding out *why* the laws are in place and/or why they should be subject to that law.

 

I guess for me, though, just not liking a rule doesn't mean I can disobey it. If I have a serious moral/ethical/etc. disagreement with the reason for the law or rule I will disobey it. But I am not going to, say, condone my children breaking a dress code simply because they think the dress code is stupid. They need to respect the rules of the institution they are attending, or the website they are part of, etc. I think part of maturity is being able to do that even when they don't want to do so. The other part is knowing which rules are actually worth disobeying and why - I guess speeding would be a good example :P - along with the fact that those broken rules still carry consequences if one gets caught.

[kiana]

I think that there's a difference between not following a rule when there's a very good reason not to do so (civil disobedience etc.) and not following a rule simply because it's inconvenient or annoying.

[kewb]

I have taught my children to follow the rules/laws/authority. I have also taught them that it is okay to question the rule/law/authority. But, I have also taught them that if they disagree they need to follow the law while working to change it. If they disagree with one of my rules they are free to make a case as to why it should be changed. Sometimes, they make a good case and I change the rule.

[Peela]

No, I don't teach my kids to follow authority blindly and without question- in this day and age I don't feel that is appropriate I try to teach them to be intelligent and when appropriate, to follow their gut feeling.

 

I think basic intelligence and an alert and open mind is sufficient. One follows the rules at Scouts unless one wishes to suffer the consequences of not following the rules- same on the roads and at home.

If one finds a rule stupid, inconvenient or unwise...one considers the consequences of not following it, and then chooses a pathway.

Most of teh time, following the rules is just easiest and most appropriate. But if my kids can give me a valid reason for breaking a rule, (such as at home) I will accept it. I don't just say "they are the rules no matter what" if they can prove to me the rule is sometimes stupid.

 

I don't follow all rules blindly. There is a mall nearby that has a turn right only exit, and I always turn left there because I think it is a stupid and inconvenient rule, and I am hurting no one by turning left safely. I notice many other cars doing the same. Hopefully one day they will change the rule.

I walk my dog in a no dog area after hours when the ranger wont be on duty. I pick up after my dog.

I speed sometimes.

 

I think blind trust for authority and rules is not appropriate and it is how we as a society are controlled and manipulated by big business and vested interests. Think all the people who listen to the medical profession as if they are God, without checking for themselves. Think all the people who accept bank rulings even when the bank made a mistake. IN Australia, our prime minister is not revered..he or she is just an ordinary person and they are not generally hugely charismatic people that we look up to particularly.

I really think the time for trusting authority just because they are considered authority, is past. Yes, there is a certain convenience in following most rules.

 

I teach my kids to accept the consequences, and do what they feel is right or best. Most of the time that is just goign to be to follow the rules.

My son does not accept that his Scout leader, a very dominating and sometimes bullying woman, deserves his respect. He does not respect her authority, because of how she treats him and others. She abuses her authority. But he generally will follow the rules anyway, and every now and then he wont just to be a rebellious teen who wont be controlled. I don't usually support his rebellion because it is often immature, and I cop it a lot at home, but I do respect his independent spirit and don't wish to break his spirit in the name of obeying authorities who behave ridiculously.

[Farrar]

I've never fully understood the idea that one should question the law then always follow it, working for change from within. I would say that sometimes, yes, that is the right thing to do. Or it could be the right decision for someone personally. However, sometimes I think civil disobedience is important. There have been a few times in my life that I've engaged in civil disobedience and I was prepared to accept the consequences. I would never teach my kids that if a law or rule is wrong that they must follow it. I would say they have to make an informed decision based on their own needs and their convictions. Also, I would add that you have to take into account the source of the rule. Government laws, for example, are things to be taken very seriously. Some other authorities get less weight, at least from me.

 

Sort of a tangent, but one of my sons is very, very concerned with following the letter of the rules everywhere we go. It's completely an anxiety issue for him. Sometimes, when rules have been poorly made (as in conflicting, vague or poorly phrased rules, which are in more places than you would imagine) it causes all of us headaches. Grammar and logic can be important in writing rules.

[Aggie]

There is a fine line here, imo.

 

Traffic laws, for instance, are in place to protect everybody, no just YOU. We all (obviously) don't know enough about physics to determine that 80mph is not just as safe as 40mph on that curve. If it was just going to be you to get hurt or killed, fine...go ahead and do 80. It's who you may take with you, like people in the oncoming car. And it's not just a matter of childishly being afraid of being caught and suffering the consequences. (FTR, though I may not like many traffic laws, I realize they aren't all just random whims of some power hungry individual.:001_smile:)

 

As an employer, I can't imagine having an employee who questioned *every* thing before doing her job. (I know parents who are raising their dc like this.) Or having one who decided not to do her job because she didn't feel it was right. Unless, of course, it was illegal or immoral.

 

On the other hand....if anyone ever tries to take our guns...there will be lots of noisy civil disobedience. :lol:

[FaithManor]

I think that the conundrum is a matter of right and wrong and how those terms are defined.

 

Our children are taught respect for authority so long as the authority figure does not violate moral law nor ask them to do so. Once they have crossed that line, authority is out the window. But, that is a problem for a lot of people because we no longer have a country in which what is right and what is wrong is commonly held belief.

 

We also teach them the difference between religious law, natural law, and civil law. Ultimately, our family beliefs hold to a religious law that trumps everything. But, we also teach them that if they must commit an act of civil disobedience, they must also gracefully take the consequences and this can include forfeiting your life as the case would be in some countries for practicing our faith. Faith trumps law in the moral realm, it may not save you from the physical realm.

 

Our kids are pretty obedient young people but we try to instill in them the sense that "if the little alarm in your head or heart goes off....ring, ring, ring, and you have that little voice saying, don't do that even though the person in charges says, 'do that' ", then you don't do that, go find an adult, leave if you can, stand up for what is right, call home, whatever you need to do. Yes, it is going to be pretty uncomfortable, maybe even awful, but that is what you must do....you do not violate your conscience.

 

It's very hard to balance the need for respect and for authority figures, with personal liberty and moral integrity and that's especially true for kids today as they watch the personal lives of politicians and authority figures splashed all over the media and stories of abuse of power are everywhere. The constitution is no longer upheld and so there is more and more discontent amongst the populace. That makes this issue even more difficult to address because everyone's opinion of the right thing to do is all over the map. That's why we keep coming back to the tenets of our faith as the root for this kind of discussion.

 

I don't want my kids to conform for the sake of conforming. But, I don't want them to see rebellion as some sort of wonderful expression of individuality either. It's not and has a whole host of problems that go with it!

 

Now, that just was a CLEAR AS MUD! Wasn't it?

Faith

[LibraryLover]

OP, you might like to read the book Outliers to see what happens to some people who do not question authority.

 

Although, follwoing reasonable guidelines (like FB age restrictions because of lawsuits) isn't the same as blind obedience. That's a gigantic leap. I might even consider the child who had no interest in FB as being more the nonconformist, as opposed to the child begging to have an account.

 

Of course, I say this as one who very much enjoys FB. ;) So far, in our family of 6, 3 have an account, 3 do not, and the youngest has never even asked for one. She has asked me to tag photos and PM certain friends and her sibs, however. ;)

Edited July 15, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Medieval Mom]

I must be missing something, since everyone is referencing FB laws for minors :confused: If this is a discussion about conforming to FB laws, I apologize for being way off base in my previous post!

 

Sorry!:001_unsure:

 

FWIW, I agree with others about following the FB guidelines. If you don't agree, don't join!

Edited July 15, 2010 by Medieval Mom

[angela in ohio]

I teach my dc that you have to have a compelling reason to break rules. "But I want a FB account," would not count. IMHO, rules should be broken for safety or morality issue, but not for personal desires or a feeling of being "above the law." I don't think 'following rules' = 'can't think critically' or the opposite. I know a lot of people who disobey any rule they come in contact with without any thought whatsoever, just because they want to think they are "free spirits." :D That's not critical thinking, any more than blindly following a bad rule is.

 

A lot of times people don't follow rules because they don't see the reason for them. It takes a mature person to know that they don't know everything, and that the person creating the rule may have a better insight than they do. We talk through this with our dc, helping them see that they don't always know everything or know better than everyone else, and that there may be reasons they don't understand for rules (from us or from others.) They can and have disobeyed things we tell them when the situation calls for it, once they reach an age to be able to think it through themselves (for example, when two guidelines we have given them conflict in a situation and they must choose the more important and disregard the other.) But they don't do it just because they don't like the rule.