s/o: Paying For "Women's Work"

[Murphy101]

Martha, can you fill in what you mean by the first statement? By the context, I am going to guess you mean the government does not value your choice to stay at home, but I want to be sure before I respond.

 

 

I suppose we could blame govt, but really on thus issue I think govt is a reflection of society.

 

When people talk about giving a low income mother the "choice" to work by assisting with daycare, clothing, education, and so forth - very few view this with the scorn of welfare and even few would argue against it.

 

But when it comes to offer the same options/funds to mothers, regardless of whether they work outside the home for a paycheck - very nearly without exception people tend to view that as living on the dole, mooching, and whatever other negative adjectives and adverbs you'd like to insert. Why? If we really want to give mothers education and choice, why do we not give them a genuine choice? Why is working out of the home the only socially acceptable choice for low income parents?

 

 

I've had the same experience. Or people think there is some "secret" that we have (including the secret trust fund!) when I think the secret may be a lot less secretive than they imagine.

 

It is interestingthere is opposition on the part of certain women's groups (he cites Feminist Economists) to anything like a child-care tax credit for those who take care of their own families.

 

Yeah. That's me too. Many, many people are downright shocked at the at how well live when they find out how little money we make. And many of them don't think we do all that well because we do without many things they would not consider giving up.

 

I do not know why so many feminist feel threatened by the idea of giving women the true choice to stay home.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Martha

[Saille]

I do not know why so many feminist feel threatened by the idea of giving women the true choice to stay home.

 

I've been wondering this too, and the best conclusion I can come up with is that none of the women who feel threatened by the idea are women who would want to stay home. Which begs the question, what about reciprocity? If I, as a SAHM, can support the right to work, the right to equal pay, etc., why not do the same for me? Surely it can't be that difficult to conceptualize. OTOH, we don't talk about providing income credit for men who stay home, either...

[Murphy101]

I've been wondering this too, and the best conclusion I can come up with is that none of the women who feel threatened by the idea are women who would want to stay home. Which begs the question, what about reciprocity? If I, as a SAHM, can support the right to work, the right to equal pay, etc., why not do the same for me? Surely it can't be that difficult to conceptualize. OTOH, we don't talk about providing income credit for men who stay home, either...

 

I do. I'm 100% okay with either parent staying home full time. :)

[Saille]

I do. I'm 100% okay with either parent staying home full time. :)

:cheers2:

 

I'm specifically talking about the feminists who are threatened by the idea of a woman choosing to stay home. I think there's a subtext there that we're not *supposed* to want to. Like they think we're still victims of cultural brainwashing. But the conversation would change somewhat if men wanted some sort of validation/compensation to stay home.

[Colleen in NS]

Very true. Does Canada have a tax exemption for children?

 

According to Revenue Canada's website: "Line 367 - Amount for children born in 1992 or later

 

You can claim $2,089 for each of your or your spouse’s or common-law partner’s children who are under 18 years of age at the end of the year if the child resided with both of you throughout the year.

 

The full amount can be claimed in the year of the child's birth, death, or adoption."

 

This doesn't appear to be income-dependent. We have a couple of other things, too - a GST refund, that is income-dependent - it is paid quarterly. It's sort of a refund of part of the goods and services taxes that you pay for shampoo, car repairs, etc. (and if you don't buy a lot of goods and services, this can work out to actually getting paid!). We also have the working income tax benefit or something like that, which is sort of like a supplement to low-income earners - not welfare/social assistance - it's income-dependent, too. Very helpful.

 

I think I may have gone way off track here. But again, it seems like a lot of the frustration is among Stateside homeschoolers because of the way things are set up there. The only bit of flack I can remember getting had more to do with an educational choice than an economic concern.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

But when it comes to offer the same options/funds to mothers, regardless of whether they work outside the home for a paycheck - very nearly without exception people tend to view that as living on the dole, mooching, and whatever other negative adjectives and adverbs you'd like to insert. Why? If we really want to give mothers education and choice, why do we not give them a genuine choice? Why is working out of the home the only socially acceptable choice for low income parents?

 

Yeah. That's me too. Many, many people are downright shocked at the at how well live when they find out how little money we make. And many of them don't think we do all that well because we do without many things they would not consider giving up.

 

I do not know why so many feminist feel threatened by the idea of giving women the true choice to stay home.

 

I am a feminist here and strongly support a woman's choice to stay home:D. I am a feminist in that I believe that when women are treated badly then chances are men are treated badly as well. I think men and women should be afforded the same opportunities and treated equally. It saddens me that feminism has a bad name since I see it as an extension of human rights. I am very, very grateful to be able to stay home now:) I also agree that low income moms should have a choice to stay home.

 

My 2 cents:)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I do. I'm 100% okay with either parent staying home full time. :)

 

:iagree::D

[TXMomof4]

I've throughly enjoyed reading through this thread. I agree with 99% of what has been said so far. I do want my choices to be seen as equally valid as the choice of the mom who is employed outside of the home. I do spend as much time or more "working" and I do want the same respect given my choices.

 

However, it seems to have taken the turn that the choices will only be seen as valid if I am compensated for them in some way. I don't need monetary compensation to give my choices weight. How many of us have yelled and screamed that receiving money for hs would in the end remove many of our freedoms in hsing? We argue that the gov. should have no say in my choices as a hs parent and will go to great lengths to maintain our autonomy there.

 

My sister is going through a divorce right now and has little education and child support will be minimal. She is exploring different options for aid from the gov. but they all come with strings attached. They will give financial aid for education IF she chooses certain fields. They will approve help with childcare IF she uses a gov. approved facility. She got in an arguement at wal-mart the other day because they were sure watermelons weren't approved on her WIC vouchers.

 

All that to say that once you start looking for the gov. to endorse your choice to stay at home, you start losing a little bit of the freedom that choice has given you.

 

I really have enjoyed reading through this. Hope I'm not taking it off course.

[WarriorMama]

Colleen, the calculator I used showed for my family, with the ages of my dc and our current income, we would get something like $2400 a month. That's a lot more than you are saying, so the calculator must have been wrong. When I re-figured using these numbers, it was more in line with the tax credits + food stamps.

 

Actually, that doesn't sound too far off to me.

[Murphy101]

However, it seems to have taken the turn that the choices will only be seen as valid if I am compensated for them in some way. I don't need monetary compensation to give my choices weight. How many of us have yelled and screamed that receiving money for hs would in the end remove many of our freedoms in hsing? We argue that the gov. should have no say in my choices as a hs parent and will go to great lengths to maintain our autonomy there.

 

All that to say that once you start looking for the gov. to endorse your choice to stay at home, you start losing a little bit of the freedom that choice has given you.

 

I really have enjoyed reading through this. Hope I'm not taking it off course.

 

:iagree:

 

I very much agree with you! I'm nit wanting govt involvement. My point was simply to illustrate that there is a valid reason to be concerned about the lack of value for unpaid labors in our society is a cause for concern bc it stands to reason that the financial and legal Situations created will reflect that intolerance.

 

Oddly enough I think this is why forced labor without pay (aka required volunteer hours) has recently become a common requirement. If one doesn't live in a society that values unpaid labor many of the things our grandmothers did without thought at now thought to be unworthy of our time. Iow, if you can't pay - you don't deserve another persons effort. So very many many things used to be done for free with lots of family and community support. I'm not just talking about SAHMs either. Elder care, an aunt or grandmother moving in to help with kids when a spouse dies or gets sick. Watching the neighbor pets/ plants when they are on vacation and so much else used to only occasionally required paid services to manage.

[justamouse]

What a flipping fantastic thread!

 

 

It's not that the skills my daughters have aren't valued. They are valued as long as they are carried out in the public arena. An individual's contribution to the home and family is what we undervalue as a society. Maybe it's because we, above all things, value the individual?

 

This, but this x10. If it were a man/boy's contribution, wouldn't it be easier to put in a transcript?

[Rosie_0801]

I do not know why so many feminist feel threatened by the idea of giving women the true choice to stay home.

 

I've been wondering this too, and the best conclusion I can come up with is that none of the women who feel threatened by the idea are women who would want to stay home. Which begs the question, what about reciprocity? If I, as a SAHM, can support the right to work, the right to equal pay, etc., why not do the same for me? Surely it can't be that difficult to conceptualize. OTOH, we don't talk about providing income credit for men who stay home, either...

 

Some people are stuck back in second wave feminism, I think, and don't know anything about the first wave, or the third wave.

 

I am a feminist here and strongly support a woman's choice to stay home:D. I am a feminist in that I believe that when women are treated badly then chances are men are treated badly as well. I think men and women should be afforded the same opportunities and treated equally. It saddens me that feminism has a bad name since I see it as an extension of human rights. I am very, very grateful to be able to stay home now:) I also agree that low income moms should have a choice to stay home.

 

 

Yeah, and equal doesn't mean the same because men and women are equal, but anyone who wants to argue they are the same has been living a very solitary life.

 

I also suspect those who refuse to call themselves feminists believe very similar things to us third wave feminists :)

 

Rosie

[Saille]

I've throughly enjoyed reading through this thread. I agree with 99% of what has been said so far. I do want my choices to be seen as equally valid as the choice of the mom who is employed outside of the home. I do spend as much time or more "working" and I do want the same respect given my choices.

 

However, it seems to have taken the turn that the choices will only be seen as valid if I am compensated for them in some way. I don't need monetary compensation to give my choices weight. How many of us have yelled and screamed that receiving money for hs would in the end remove many of our freedoms in hsing? We argue that the gov. should have no say in my choices as a hs parent and will go to great lengths to maintain our autonomy there.

 

My sister is going through a divorce right now and has little education and child support will be minimal. She is exploring different options for aid from the gov. but they all come with strings attached. They will give financial aid for education IF she chooses certain fields. They will approve help with childcare IF she uses a gov. approved facility. She got in an arguement at wal-mart the other day because they were sure watermelons weren't approved on her WIC vouchers.

 

All that to say that once you start looking for the gov. to endorse your choice to stay at home, you start losing a little bit of the freedom that choice has given you.

 

I really have enjoyed reading through this. Hope I'm not taking it off course.

 

This is a really excellent point. I have memories of a friend on the WIC program only being able to buy really awful sugary cereal with those coupons, and horrible sat. fat. hydrogenated oil peanut butter. When she got food stamps, she started riding with me up to the Wild Oats in Columbus once a month, b/c they took the food stamp card and local health food stores didn't.

[stripe]

However, it seems to have taken the turn that the choices will only be seen as valid if I am compensated for them in some way. I don't need monetary compensation to give my choices weight.

Well, given that various aspects of my life already impact the amount of taxes I pay (e.g. marital status, children), I don't think it necessarily is so that simply having a tax credit for those who take care of their own children (or other family members) would be intrusive and lead to "regulation." I do think it's curious that various other decisions, such as putting one's child in day care, ARE compensated by the government, and I think if we really wanted to imagine a society with great family values, certain things, such as parental leave and child care tax credits, and more support for those who take care of other family members in need, would be acknowledged. The only way the income tax form does things is through the "reward" of a tax credit type of situation. That does suggest that the government is supporting your decision. Otherwise, it's empty talk to say we support parents and children, but it's financially punitive to stay at home with your children. I don't think the tax status is neutral exactly because it does subsidize child care by others, so I am suggesting evening the playing field by subsidizing both.

 

Sort of like the government has decided to financially encourage home ownership as a sort of position that it's good for the country. One can get tax benefits for home ownership to offset some of the costs of a mortgage that are not available for apartment dwellers.

 

I do agree that we too shouldn't suggest something is not valuable simply because it's free or goes financially unrewarded.

[Colleen in NS]

I think if we really wanted to imagine a society with great family values, certain things, such as parental leave and child care tax credits, and more support for those who take care of other family members in need, would be acknowledged. ... I don't think the tax status is neutral exactly because it does subsidize child care by others, so I am suggesting evening the playing field by subsidizing both.

 

:iagree:

 

And the Universal Child Care Benefit that I previously mentioned is for *anyone* with children under 6, no matter the income, no matter where the child is cared for, as long as the payment receiver is the one responsible for overseeing the child in general. In other words, it doesn't go to, say, a daycare provider - it generally goes one parent/guardian, to use for child care as he/she sees fit.

 

From the website about it:

 

"3. My child(ren) does/do not go to daycare. Can I receive the UCCB anyway?

The UCCB supports Canadian families in their child care choices, whether or not the children are in institutionalized daycare programs."

[Renee in NC]

According to Revenue Canada's website: "Line 367 - Amount for children born in 1992 or later

 

You can claim $2,089 for each of your or your spouse’s or common-law partner’s children who are under 18 years of age at the end of the year if the child resided with both of you throughout the year.

 

The full amount can be claimed in the year of the child's birth, death, or adoption."

 

This doesn't appear to be income-dependent. We have a couple of other things, too - a GST refund, that is income-dependent - it is paid quarterly. It's sort of a refund of part of the goods and services taxes that you pay for shampoo, car repairs, etc. (and if you don't buy a lot of goods and services, this can work out to actually getting paid!). We also have the working income tax benefit or something like that, which is sort of like a supplement to low-income earners - not welfare/social assistance - it's income-dependent, too. Very helpful.

 

I think I may have gone way off track here. But again, it seems like a lot of the frustration is among Stateside homeschoolers because of the way things are set up there. The only bit of flack I can remember getting had more to do with an educational choice than an economic concern.

 

I might have factored in some of those other credits when I was looking at the $2400 a month figure. I'm not frustrated with the way things are set up here, but I have been interested in how Canada does this. I've been very interested in how the gov't of other countries support a parent staying home (especially the fact that it doesn't seem gender dependent.)

[Peela]

So anyway, I guess I see Canada's as a family-friendly system compared to the CTC in the States. So it made me wonder if Australia had something similar, because of Peela's and Rosie's relaxed posts. I think it IS frustrating for some of those living in the States, to have so much around you pulling you down in your hard work. We parents work hard!! And I like to feel valued in what I do, too!

 

 

Yes Colleen, we have good benefits- perhaps even better than Canada's. I hadn't thought of that before you mentioned it. Until recently, I received around $350 a fortnight for rent assistance, and tax benefits for my two kids (now that one has turned 16, we are applying for a different payment for her called Youth Allowance, which still gets paid to me, but I don't know how much it will be yet). We are a slightly above average income family, but having only one income makes us quite eligible- the threshhold does change for income but you have to have a pretty high income to receive nothing. That money is what I have used to homeschool- classes, curricula etc. There is also quite a significant lump sum ($3000 I think? ) paid to mothers for each newborn nowadays (I missed out on that one!).

No, we dont get food stamps but by the sounds of it I wouldn't like the type of food you can get with them.

But yes, our government does support families (with our taxes mind you!) and perhaps that is at least part of why there is less of an "attitude" towards SAHMs here. It is understood by many I talk to that it is barely worth going to work unless you have a high income job, because of daycare costs etc. Although- daycare is subsidised too.

I guess these could be significant factors in why I find it hard to relate to the attitude expressed here....and kudos to those who homeschool considering it must be harder to do so on one income there, than here.

[Murphy101]

Sometimes it very much is gender dependent and that's not necessarily bad. For example, some countries give lots of time for bf-ing mothers at work. Extended breaks and such. Some give a ton of PAID maternity leave.

 

I do wish that men were given more paternity benefits if for no other reason than these days the spouse might be the ONLY support a mother has since so many do not have family who can help or that live near enough to do it even if they could take off work. The days of grandma or sister coming to stay for a few weeks to helps out are lonnnnnng gone. Heaven help the mother who is bedridden or has a hard delivery.

 

It would be nice if you didn't have to justify the relationship. Yk. Yeah we'll give the mother time off to help her kid, but not her sister or grandbaby. Same goes for men too of course. Even if they limited how much time off (which they do anyways) it would be a great relief to many people I think.

[Renee in NC]

Yes Colleen, we have good benefits- perhaps even better than Canada's. I hadn't thought of that before you mentioned it. Until recently, I received around $350 a fortnight for rent assistance, and tax benefits for my two kids (now that one has turned 16, we are applying for a different payment for her called Youth Allowance, which still gets paid to me, but I don't know how much it will be yet). We are a slightly above average income family, but having only one income makes us quite eligible- the threshhold does change for income but you have to have a pretty high income to receive nothing. That money is what I have used to homeschool- classes, curricula etc. There is also quite a significant lump sum ($3000 I think? ) paid to mothers for each newborn nowadays (I missed out on that one!).

No, we dont get food stamps but by the sounds of it I wouldn't like the type of food you can get with them.

But yes, our government does support families (with our taxes mind you!) and perhaps that is at least part of why there is less of an "attitude" towards SAHMs here. It is understood by many I talk to that it is barely worth going to work unless you have a high income job, because of daycare costs etc. Although- daycare is subsidised too.

I guess these could be significant factors in why I find it hard to relate to the attitude expressed here....and kudos to those who homeschool considering it must be harder to do so on one income there, than here.

 

Food stamps can buy any food item, even seeds and plants for a garden. WIC is the one that only offers certain foods and specified types.

 

I found the Australia Family Assistance website and I am in shock! How does that work? Could a family live on $46,000 per year there? Are the payments taxed?

 

We're not moving or anything.:D I remember hearing something about a declining birth rate in Australia - is that why they "reward" people who have children?

[Melissa in Australia]

Yes Colleen, we have good benefits- perhaps even better than Canada's. I hadn't thought of that before you mentioned it. Until recently, I received around $350 a fortnight for rent assistance, and tax benefits for my two kids (now that one has turned 16, we are applying for a different payment for her called Youth Allowance, which still gets paid to me, but I don't know how much it will be yet). We are a slightly above average income family, but having only one income makes us quite eligible- the threshhold does change for income but you have to have a pretty high income to receive nothing. That money is what I have used to homeschool- classes, curricula etc. There is also quite a significant lump sum ($3000 I think? ) paid to mothers for each newborn nowadays (I missed out on that one!).

No, we dont get food stamps but by the sounds of it I wouldn't like the type of food you can get with them.

But yes, our government does support families (with our taxes mind you!) and perhaps that is at least part of why there is less of an "attitude" towards SAHMs here. It is understood by many I talk to that it is barely worth going to work unless you have a high income job, because of daycare costs etc. Although- daycare is subsidised too.

I guess these could be significant factors in why I find it hard to relate to the attitude expressed here....and kudos to those who homeschool considering it must be harder to do so on one income there, than here.

have fun trying to get youth allowance while homeschooling. In Victoria they do not let homeschoolers get youth allowance at all. I had to fight to continue getting FTB at all for my son just turned 16, because of less regulation on homeschooling in VIC.

[Melissa in Australia]

Food stamps can buy any food item, even seeds and plants for a garden. WIC is the one that only offers certain foods and specified types.

 

I found the Australia Family Assistance website and I am in shock! How does that work? Could a family live on $46,000 per year there? Are the payments taxed?

 

We're not moving or anything.:D I remember hearing something about a declining birth rate in Australia - is that why they "reward" people who have children?

 

The baby bonus of $3000 was to encourage people to have children.

 

Yes a family can live on less than $46,000 per year.

my husband gets a disability pension for a work accident. That plus the Family Assistance puts our total income per year at under $40,000 . You have to remember we don't have to pay any health insurance.

we live very frugally, and have no debts, including no mortgage. we live fairly well.

Half of the family benefit is taxed

[Peela]

have fun trying to get youth allowance while homeschooling. In Victoria they do not let homeschoolers get youth allowance at all. I had to fight to continue getting FTB at all for my son just turned 16, because of less regulation on homeschooling in VIC.

 

Hopefully it will be ok because dd is doing a TAFE course- correspondence- and her home school moderator doesn't think she should be on her books anymore, although it is a grey area. We didn't mention she was home schooled on the forms because they didn't ask.

[Rosie_0801]

:iagree: with Melissa. We were living completely off welfare for most of the last year and a half. We lived quite comfortably for the most part, though our standards of comfort would aren't high. We did live in the cheapest rental property in town, we only have one car (dh is epileptic so this wasn't a financial choice :) ) lived walking distance to the shops, and library so barely used the car, are mostly vegan, don't even own a dryer and we only have two little kids. The bummer is that now dh is employed, we aren't able to live much better but that'll improve over time. Our new house is still a dump, but it has three instead of two bedrooms and a heater, so it's a palatial dump. It really rubs it in your face when the apprentice kid who comes to fix the gate expresses his disgust at the state of disrepair and hardly believed me when I explained the last place was worse!

 

Such is life :)

 

P.S Grr at you Peela! You got more rent assistance than I paid in rent! I only got $40 a week or maybe a fortnight. How tight is that? :D

 

Rosie

Edited July 7, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Colleen in NS]

Yes Colleen, we have good benefits- perhaps even better than Canada's. I hadn't thought of that before you mentioned it. Until recently, I received around $350 a fortnight for rent assistance,

 

Wow! That reminds me; for the past couple of years, we have qualified locally for a property tax rebate - half back! And a few years ago, we got a huge municipal grant to replace our unsafe chimney. There may have been an agreement to pay part of it back if we sold the house before the next five years, but it would have been paid out of proceeds of sale.

 

I am in shock!

 

I guess so!!! Hmmm....Peela makes "sunny Australia" sound so appealing.

 

including no mortgage.

 

Do you rent? If not, I'd like to hear your story! :D

[Melissa in Australia]

 

Do you rent? If not, I'd like to hear your story! :D

No We don't rent. we just don't buy anything until we can afford it. when we got married, my husband had already bought the land ( 5 acres) he is alot older than me (15 years) so he had some money saved. we lived in a pop up caravan for 2 years. think canvas sides, it had so little floor room, that only one could stand at a time. We slowly built a small cottage. the minimum size, and lived in that with hardly any furniture, and no electricity for 2 more years. etc.etc.

we have extended the house in the last 3 years, and still save up for things before getting them. I have had no kitchen cupboards for 15 years. my husband started making some last year ( very exciting) .

 

over the years, we have even saved up enough to buy the neighbouring property.

People look at out beautiful house and well looked after property, and think we must be rich. they don't realize how carefully we have saved to get where we are.In fact we live the way our parents lived and their parents before them, by saving up until we can afford things, even if it takes time. Everything comes to he who waits, and sometimes it makes it more exciting having to wait.

 

Now I am completely off topic

[Melissa in Australia]

Hopefully it will be ok because dd is doing a TAFE course- correspondence- and her home school moderator doesn't think she should be on her books anymore, although it is a grey area. We didn't mention she was home schooled on the forms because they didn't ask.

 

If her TAFE course is considered full time, she shouldn't have a problem. The problem I had with FTB was trying to prove that my DS was not just bumming around, and was really studying all day,, as there is no way to get curriculum approved in VIC. there are no moderators, and my registering for homeschooling certificate wasn't enough.

[Renee in NC]

The baby bonus of $3000 was to encourage people to have children.

 

Yes a family can live on less than $46,000 per year.

my husband gets a disability pension for a work accident. That plus the Family Assistance puts our total income per year at under $40,000 . You have to remember we don't have to pay any health insurance.

we live very frugally, and have no debts, including no mortgage. we live fairly well.

Half of the family benefit is taxed

 

That's pretty interesting. We live on much less than that here (meaning the $46K), but we do pay health insurance. Your no mortgage story is amazing! I am guessing there wasn't a building department to give you a hard time about how you built it? We had a neighbor who built a small cabin with no water/electricity where we used to live, but she did it "on the sly" because they *never* would have let her build it otherwise. She says it is her "shed"!:lol:

Edited July 7, 2010 by Renee in FL

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I understand. To me its not so much wondering why y'all care what others think so much as having my eyes opened as to how far further along the (not so healthy) track your culture is than here in Australia...it doesnt look good. Here, although homeschooling often takes people by surprise and is an even less well known option and less popular than in America....being a SAHM is really not such a big deal at all.

 

My personal experience growing up in Australia was vastly different. The message was made clear to me from rather young, and reinforced through church no less, that being a SAHM was for those who couldn't "do better" and have no ambition - on par, as far as esteem and value went, with being a "dole bludger" as they use to call it. Basically, you must be either lazy or stupid.

[Colleen in NS]

No We don't rent. we just don't buy anything until we can afford it. when we got married, my husband had already bought the land ( 5 acres) he is alot older than me (15 years) so he had some money saved. we lived in a pop up caravan for 2 years. think canvas sides, it had so little floor room, that only one could stand at a time. We slowly built a small cottage. the minimum size, and lived in that with hardly any furniture, and no electricity for 2 more years. etc.etc.

we have extended the house in the last 3 years, and still save up for things before getting them. I have had no kitchen cupboards for 15 years. my husband started making some last year ( very exciting) .

 

over the years, we have even saved up enough to buy the neighbouring property.

People look at out beautiful house and well looked after property, and think we must be rich. they don't realize how carefully we have saved to get where we are.In fact we live the way our parents lived and their parents before them, by saving up until we can afford things, even if it takes time. Everything comes to he who waits, and sometimes it makes it more exciting having to wait.

 

Now I am completely off topic

 

I just love reading stories like this. We're pretty frugal and have no debt except mortgage, but I sometimes really wish I could go back to before we bought a house and decide things differently. I really do not like having even a mortgage for a house that seems to be rising in value hanging over my head.

 

My personal experience growing up in Australia was vastly different. The message was made clear to me from rather young, and reinforced through church no less, that being a SAHM was for those who couldn't "do better" and have no ambition - on par, as far as esteem and value went, with being a "dole bludger" as they use to call it. Basically, you must be either lazy or stupid.

 

Well, that blows my theory! :lol:

[MelanieM]

Fabulous discussion!

 

About the difference between Canada and the US...

 

I think there's been some comparison between the US tax credit and the Canadian Child Tax Benefit, but in Canada we also have a tax credit for dependant children. So here, it's three fold -- tax credit, CTB, and UCCB (universal child care benefit). I think the tax credit is a base amount per child, but it may fluctuate with income. The CTB is based on income and the UCCB is for everyone. The UCCB is taxable as income, so it's a little bit of a give and take back scenario, but you still get more than they take!

 

We also have universal health care, which means there's no monthly insurance payment happening unless you want to go above and beyond the basic care model and aren't covered through work. (Most employers offer some additional health care benefits that cover part dental, prescriptions, alternative care options, etc. You may or may not have to pay into these plans, depending on the employer.)

 

We also have 16 weeks of maternity leave and 36 weeks of parental leave. Most of the time people refer to this as maternity leave, but only 16 weeks of it is intended for maternal recovery. The other 36 weeks can be used by either parent. Benefits in the amount of 45% (I think?) up to a maximum are paid during leave. And if you're lucky, you'll have an employer that offers top-up pay for a set amount of time... when my third was born my husband was able to take 9 weeks off at full pay, which included 3 weeks vacation and 6 weeks of top-up. It was *amazing*.

 

In Alberta and BC parents are able to get a homeschooling credit, which can be very helpful. The programs differ in how they operate and the amount offered, and I can't speak to the specifics.

 

I still think there's more that could be done here, but I am thankful for what we do have available. :)

Edited July 7, 2010 by MelanieM

[Murphy101]

Wow. There's always more that could be done, but that's still so far beyond what anyone can hope for in the USA as to be embarrassing to us as a nation.

[stripe]

Speechless.

[Mejane]

Wow. There's always more that could be done, but that's still so far beyond what anyone can hope for in the USA as to be embarrassing to us as a nation.

 

Yes! For such a "progressive" nation, we can certainly be backwards in many areas. :tongue_smilie:

[Colleen in NS]

I think the tax credit is a base amount per child, but it may fluctuate with income.

 

I mentioned it earlier; it doesn't seem to fluctuate with income. Also, I think some provinces do charge a small fee for basic insurance coverage, but still....I am very grateful for what we have here for family support.

[SproutMamaK]

Warning - slight thread hijack ahead.

 

We also have 16 weeks of maternity leave and 36 weeks of parental leave. Most of the time people refer to this as maternity leave, but only 16 weeks of it is intended for maternal recovery. The other 36 weeks can be used by either parent. Benefits in the amount of 45% (I think?) up to a maximum are paid during leave. And if you're lucky, you'll have an employer that offers top-up pay for a set amount of time...

 

I believe it's actually 55 or 60%. I'm certain it was more than half, at least when I first took mat leave 6 years ago (I don't think it's changed since then). I think it's largely due to our long mat leave policies that breastfeeding is so much more accepted up here. I don't think I know ANYONE that hasn't bf'ed, at least to start, even from my corporate days.

 

There's also, in Ontario, the Ontario Child Benefit for family with "low incomes", which I believe has a relatively generous income cap - 35 or 40K, perhaps? And as the prent of a special needs child.... I get at least $1200 extra each month because of the boys autism, not to mention the additional $3300/month (you read that right) that the government will pay for the oldest's therapy and therapy/educational supplies. I can't go through that if I tried. 90% of my curriculum was able to be funded through that program (despite the fact that I would have had to pay for curriculum even if they had no disabilities), and it didn't even put a dent in the amount of therapy he received that quarter - we had that much left over. Honestly, they're practically throwing money at us - it's honestly too much. I feel like I'm mooching off the system, but they're not really giving me an option NOT to get the money.

 

Why is being a SAHM mom to a disabled child (or two in my case) worthy of so much honour and so many "I'm amazed at what you do every day" comments, when if the boy were totalyl fine it would somehow be a waste of time?

[Murphy101]

Omh! Tell me the warmest place in Canada to live and I'm otta here.

Only half joking there.

 

Geez. Are taxes insane high there to fund these programs or what? Hasn't the economy required cuts?

[Melissa in Australia]

That's pretty interesting. We live on much less than that here (meaning the $46K), but we do pay health insurance. Your no mortgage story is amazing! I am guessing there wasn't a building department to give you a hard time about how you built it? We had a neighbor who built a small cabin with no water/electricity where we used to live, but she did it "on the sly" because they *never* would have let her build it otherwise. She says it is her "shed"!:lol:

 

Believe me, the building commission is extremely regulated here. you have to get permits and expectations for everything. you are not aloud to build a shed without having a house first!. you can live without electricity though.

My husband got into BIG trouble for "illegally" putting on the roof of the extension. he didn't have a roofing licence (only plumbers have one). The plumbing commission was the ones that prosecuted him. He had to go an a one year good behavior bond, and was told if he did any more illegal things, they might have to depot him.:lol: ( he is not an Australian citizen)

[Colleen in NS]

Omh! Tell me the warmest place in Canada to live and I'm otta here.

Only half joking there.

 

Geez. Are taxes insane high there to fund these programs or what? Hasn't the economy required cuts?

 

Either British Columbia, or Nova Scotia or PEI! Come on up! Move to Nova Scotia! Near me! :D

 

Taxes will vary according to many factors, but my experience has been that with dh self-employed and not making a ton of money, he doesn't have to pay very much. There is the goods and services tax (GST) on things like shampoo, vehicle repairs, etc., which currently is 15%, but then there is the gst REFUND that comes quarterly! The refund depends on your income, not your outgo, so if you live frugally, a low income family could actually get paid, not just refunded.

 

And speaking of the GST refund, I just got our notice today of what the quarterly payments will be for the next 12 months, and found yet another benefit attached: the Nova Scotia Affordable Living tax credit - thankyouverymuch!!! It makes being a SAHM/homeschooler MUCH easier. As for "not contributing to society," well, I am. I am raising my kids, we pay taxes according to the law, and when my kids are grown, I will do something to earn money, volunteer, contribute some more.

 

You should move to NS - it's much more affordable than BC. :D It's 90 degrees F today, if that gives you an idea of warmth. :D Plenty of Catholic churches around here, too. :D

[Audrey]

Either British Columbia, or Nova Scotia or PEI! Come on up! Move to Nova Scotia! Near me! :D

 

Taxes will vary according to many factors, but my experience has been that with dh self-employed and not making a ton of money, he doesn't have to pay very much. There is the goods and services tax (GST) on things like shampoo, vehicle repairs, etc., which currently is 15%, but then there is the gst REFUND that comes quarterly! The refund depends on your income, not your outgo, so if you live frugally, a low income family could actually get paid, not just refunded.

 

And speaking of the GST refund, I just got our notice today of what the quarterly payments will be for the next 12 months, and found yet another benefit attached: the Nova Scotia Affordable Living tax credit - thankyouverymuch!!! It makes being a SAHM/homeschooler MUCH easier. As for "not contributing to society," well, I am. I am raising my kids, we pay taxes according to the law, and when my kids are grown, I will do something to earn money, volunteer, contribute some more.

 

You should move to NS - it's much more affordable than BC. :D It's 90 degrees F today, if that gives you an idea of warmth. :D Plenty of Catholic churches around here, too. :D

 

 

Just to clarify.... GST is only 5%. If you are in a province that uses HST (Harmonizes sales taxes) you might be at 15%. Other provinces have PST (Provincial Sales Tax) which ranges (ours is 7%). GST is charged on almost everything except food and things like children's clothes and a few other things I can't think of at the moment. PST is charged on most things that GST is charged on, but not all.

 

As for the high taxes question... I think that's funny because dh and I TOGETHER pay less than 1/2 in federal and provincial income taxes than I ALONE paid for health insurance for myself when I was an American. Plus I had to pay income taxes on top of that. And that figure does not include the any of the tax rebates we get.

 

IME, all things considered and compared, this place is a paradise AND a bargain! :001_smile:

 

Also, our economy has weathered the storm reasonably well. Canada may be politically boring, but it's quite solid and reliable, with some very good regulations keeping our economy in line.

 

P.S. But don't move near me, Martha... Even though I've got tons of Catholic churces, I'm in one of those really cold provinces. Going skiing tomorrow actually. ;)

Edited July 7, 2010 by Audrey

[SproutMamaK]

Thanks to all of the tax credits we receive due to the boy's disabilities, we paid $700 in income taxes last year (aside from the taxes paid at the register when purchasing items) Without those credits, we would have paid about $5K (we already get a fair bit back due to tax incentives and lots of charitable donations. I believe however that an average income family pays about 30-35%. No stats to back that up, just a guess.

[Murphy101]

Why wasn't I born Canadian???

 

It sounds like the month of cold is the only (altho major) draw back?

 

What about sizes and cost of property and houses?

 

:auto:

[MelanieM]

I believe it's actually 55 or 60%. I'm certain it was more than half, at least when I first took mat leave 6 years ago (I don't think it's changed since then).

 

You're correct -- 55%, up to a maximum yearly benefit of $43,200, or $437 per week.

 

Either British Columbia, or Nova Scotia or PEI! Come on up! Move to Nova Scotia! Near me! :D

 

 

We're considering a move to Nova Scotia, and are planning a visit to Halifax in September. :D Where are you located?

 

(My husband grew up in Halifax; I'm originally from Newfoundland.)

 

Geez. Are taxes insane high there to fund these programs or what? Hasn't the economy required cuts?

 

I don't think we have more taxes than most places in the US. We just use our tax money differently than you all do.

 

What about sizes and cost of property and houses?

 

 

 

That really depends on where you want to go. Here's a site that gives average house prices across the country, to give you an idea.

[Murphy101]

We paid $140K 3 years ago for a 5 bedroom 3 bath 2 living 2 car garage here in an average to nice neighborhood, so those housing prices look really :svengo: to me. But then again, it took us years to get this house what was an approx $40K per year income.

[Impish]

Why wasn't I born Canadian???

 

It sounds like the month of cold is the only (altho major) draw back?

 

What about sizes and cost of property and houses?

 

:auto:

The 'month' of cold? :smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

 

Just as with the States, everything depends on location. Here, you can't get a house under $200-250k, and then its probably pretty rare, in the city, anyway. We only look at acreages though. Where my parents are, its more like $300k+

 

In BC, where the weather can be warmer, you also can have over 30 days of rain, depending on where. The province I'm in now, we can't move too south or the constant weather changes will cause my head (migraines) and arm (RSD) to blow the heck up.

 

I remember moving to this province and going grocery shopping...I just about passed out. Bread was at least 50% more than I'd been paying, cheddar cheese was over doubled in price...cereal same as bread.

 

Then there was the incident of frost bite my first winter...Not even in Canada is everything equal. That said, we're the one province without PST (Provincial Sales Tax). I'm somewhat convinced, though, that the higher prices are why :tongue_smilie:

[Rosie_0801]

My personal experience growing up in Australia was vastly different. The message was made clear to me from rather young, and reinforced through church no less, that being a SAHM was for those who couldn't "do better" and have no ambition - on par, as far as esteem and value went, with being a "dole bludger" as they use to call it. Basically, you must be either lazy or stupid.

 

Well, that blows my theory! :lol:

 

Attitudes have changed quite a lot over the past decade, I think. The attitude RecumbentHearth describes is what I remember from my childhood too, but as Peela and I have described, there is much, much less of that now.

 

Rosie

[Danestress]

I don't only value things that help my family. But honestly, I don't know if the average woodworker feels "valued" by me because I don't use his services in a direct way. I wonder if mechanics, engineers, farmers and woodworker forums are filled with posts full of angst about whether their efforts are properly valued.

 

I think most people are fine with me being a housewife. Maybe they aren't but are too polite to say. Occasionally someone give me a hard time about when I am going to go back to practicing law. But honestly, I don't feel less "valued" as a SAHM than I did as an attorney. Sure, my clients valued me. But their opponents hated my guts. As a SAHM, I just sort of do my thing. I'm not sure I know if people value and approve or if they disvalue and don't approve, and I don't really care. I enjoy my kids and DH, and they enjoy me. When I practiced law, I got to wear better clothes, had a secretary, and took home pay. That was nice. I had to put up with the lawyer jokes though. Can you imagine the screaming that would occur on this board if a bunch of "SAHM" jokes started circulating?

 

I don't expect to be paid for the work I do as a wife and mom, and as long as I believe it is valuable and DH does, that's what matters. How would I even measure whether others value it? The market does not compensate well for it, but that is just one way to measure.

[cathmom]

I am ready to move to Nova Scotia! Who's coming with me?

[Renee in NC]

I am ready to move to Nova Scotia! Who's coming with me?

 

I'll be there as soon as the equator migrates 1000 miles north....:lol:

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Attitudes have changed quite a lot over the past decade, I think. The attitude RecumbentHearth describes is what I remember from my childhood too, but as Peela and I have described, there is much, much less of that now.

 

Rosie

 

As it happens, it's been almost an entire decade that I've been away. :D

 

With many things considered in regards to particular absurdities going on over here these days and what I've learned about how things have changed over there since I've been away I've reminded DH a couple of times recently that we do have the option of moving to Australia. :D

[Colleen in NS]

It sounds like the month of cold is the only (altho major) draw back?

 

What about sizes and cost of property and houses?

 

:auto:

 

The 'month' of cold?

 

:lol: It's a little more than a month, sorry! But hey, this past winter, even heating oil prices were down, and in the past, yes, many people received REBATES for heating oil! As well as not having to pay a portion of what I mistakenly called the GST (in my mind, 15% is all I need to know, but Audrey provided a good breakdown) for the oil. I believe it's the east or west you'll want for least time spent cold, but the east is generally cheaper.

 

Although I have to say, your housing costs in OK are looking pretty enticing to me....I wonder what a 3BR 1Bath would cost?

 

You can get huge houses here (like you described), but they are going to cost a lot more than what you paid. If you can make use of a smaller house, you might like all the other benefits of living here.

 

About the cold: I'd say, here, the beautiful months are May/June to December. January/Feb can get pretty cold, March starts showing some sunny, warmer days, but we still can get snowstorms/rain/cold through April. This past winter, though, was quite mild here. My birthday is March 20, and I sat outside in 70 degree sunny weather. It was like that for several weeks - very unusual.

 

We're considering a move to Nova Scotia, and are planning a visit to Halifax in September. :D Where are you located?

 

Halifax Regional Municipality. :D Are you applying for jobs here?

 

Attitudes have changed quite a lot over the past decade, I think. The attitude RecumbentHearth describes is what I remember from my childhood too, but as Peela and I have described, there is much, much less of that now.

 

OK, I retain my theory. :D

 

I am ready to move to Nova Scotia! Who's coming with me?

 

I'll be there as soon as the equator migrates 1000 miles north....:lol:

 

Yay! I'll be waiting for you!