I am so angry. Anyone know who to write concerning a juvenile judge?

[Lolly]

Yes we are! :D We're only giving others a good example of how to move past differences! :D

 

 

Lolly, sorry to take over your thread! I'm praying your dd is okay, and can move forward well! :grouphug:

 

And, how to up your post count.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

I've run across people like her and the problem lies with them. So in that aspect, you could be right. Can you imagine living your life with such venom? I would feel sorry for her.

 

OTOH, I've seen teen girls cry at the drop of a hat in order to get a lesser punishment too. Not saying your DD is one of them, but when you're working with teens, you tend to see a lot of manipulation. Again, not saying your DD is one of those teens.

 

I guess my whole point is that I completely understand your anger. I also know how frustrating it can be working with teens. I'm sure your DD is a lovely girl, but this judge doesn't know her. I would tend to just remind your DD of that fact.

 

I've worked with kids my entire life. I started babysitting at 10. I was teaching gymnastics classes for pay at 12. I worked in daycare during college. I went into education and taught middle school grades until dd was born. It is not that difficult to tell when a teen is crying from frustration and fear vs manipulation. This was a frustrated/fear crying. She couldn't come up with answers to the simplest questions like "what is your mother's name and what grade are you in?"

 

Bottom line, there is no debating whether what this woman did was wrong or not. It WAS wrong. Under no possible circumstances would anyone think it was right or just if they had witnessed it.

 

Dh called this afternoon. He is composing a letter to send to someone, not sure exactly whom but he knows, about the incident. Dh was also livid when we left. He is detailing the manipulation, lying, and racist remarks (against Mexicans) we were forced to endure during the interview. It will be mailed after dd turns 18. Any other incidents we may have to deal with will be moved to a different court in another county. (We had that option this time, but did not know that we were dealing with a monster at this location.)

 

Martha, I didn't quote you, but you are so totally on target. This was truly an accident. I wasn't there and do not know what happened. I do know that dd says she checked for cars. She was driving safely. Not speeding. Not changing the radio. Not on the phone. Not eating or drinking. I suspect that the other driver was most likely driving in dd's blind spot. (One of the biggies when we are teaching driving is NEVER ride in one spot beside a car in another lane. They have a very good chance of not noticing you are there.) When dd went to change, there was suddenly a car. It happens. I've started to change lanes only to suddenly notice a car appear many times. I dare say that every single person on this board has.

 

Truthfully, I feel like any reasonable adult at the hearing would have looked at the situation and come to the conclusion that it was over and done. If it were a necessary point of law for her to have to take an approved class based on the point system because of her age, so be it. In fact, so be it anyway. But it was not a point of law. It was a decision. I think several people thought it was a legal requirement. Paying the fine was the only legally required portion of the law.

[Gretchen in NJ]

And, how to up your post count.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

 

 

I've worked with kids my entire life. I started babysitting at 10. I was teaching gymnastics classes for pay at 12. I worked in daycare during college. I went into education and taught middle school grades until dd was born. It is not that difficult to tell when a teen is crying from frustration and fear vs manipulation. This was a frustrated/fear crying. She couldn't come up with answers to the simplest questions like "what is your mother's name and what grade are you in?"

 

Bottom line, there is no debating whether what this woman did was wrong or not. It WAS wrong. Under no possible circumstances would anyone think it was right or just if they had witnessed it.

 

Dh called this afternoon. He is composing a letter to send to someone, not sure exactly whom but he knows, about the incident. Dh was also livid when we left. He is detailing the manipulation, lying, and racist remarks (against Mexicans) we were forced to endure during the interview. It will be mailed after dd turns 18. Any other incidents we may have to deal with will be moved to a different court in another county. (We had that option this time, but did not know that we were dealing with a monster at this location.)

 

Martha, I didn't quote you, but you are so totally on target. This was truly an accident. I wasn't there and do not know what happened. I do know that dd says she checked for cars. She was driving safely. Not speeding. Not changing the radio. Not on the phone. Not eating or drinking. I suspect that the other driver was most likely driving in dd's blind spot. (One of the biggies when we are teaching driving is NEVER ride in one spot beside a car in another lane. They have a very good chance of not noticing you are there.) When dd went to change, there was suddenly a car. It happens. I've started to change lanes only to suddenly notice a car appear many times. I dare say that every single person on this board has.

 

Truthfully, I feel like any reasonable adult at the hearing would have looked at the situation and come to the conclusion that it was over and done. If it were a necessary point of law for her to have to take an approved class based on the point system because of her age, so be it. In fact, so be it anyway. But it was not a point of law. It was a decision. I think several people thought it was a legal requirement. Paying the fine was the only legally required portion of the law.

Ah :grouphug: Lolly. Sorry, you had to go through this. I hope you can get away from the judge soon.

[FloridaLisa]

I would not take on the judge.

 

It will only serve to continue the angst that you and dd are now feeling. Sometimes police officers/judges/authority figures just aren't that nice. But, in the end, they are the authority over that matter and pressing back will only continue to entangle you (and dd) in the situation and be a bitter pill in the end.

 

Lisa

[asta]

I've worked with kids my entire life. I started babysitting at 10. I was teaching gymnastics classes for pay at 12. I worked in daycare during college. I went into education and taught middle school grades until dd was born. It is not that difficult to tell when a teen is crying from frustration and fear vs manipulation. This was a frustrated/fear crying. She couldn't come up with answers to the simplest questions like "what is your mother's name and what grade are you in?"

 

Bottom line, there is no debating whether what this woman did was wrong or not. It WAS wrong. Under no possible circumstances would anyone think it was right or just if they had witnessed it.

 

{gently}

 

I suspect this was probably a turning point for this official. And perhaps why she launched into a tirade about having a job, doing volunteer work, and paying for her own insurance.

 

There are a lot of sensitive kids out there. Being a sensitive soul does not make them a non-conscientiousness driver. By the same token, they may not, prior to having been in a serious accident, ever been in a situation of extreme stress on a roadway. It is quite possible that this official, faced with a teen who literally collapsed under what most people would consider simple questions (what is your mother's name), saw someone who would also collapse under a stressful driving condition (sudden blinding rain or fog, a jack-knifing 18 wheeler, etc.).

 

While I sympathise with your mama bear instincts, no amount of defensive driving courses can change this - only age and maturity can, and I think this is what the official was trying to impress upon your family.

 

 

asta

[Lolly]

{gently}

 

I suspect this was probably a turning point for this official. And perhaps why she launched into a tirade about having a job, doing volunteer work, and paying for her own insurance.

 

There are a lot of sensitive kids out there. Being a sensitive soul does not make them a non-conscientiousness driver. By the same token, they may not, prior to having been in a serious accident, ever been in a situation of extreme stress on a roadway. It is quite possible that this official, faced with a teen who literally collapsed under what most people would consider simple questions (what is your mother's name), saw someone who would also collapse under a stressful driving condition (sudden blinding rain or fog, a jack-knifing 18 wheeler, etc.).

 

While I sympathise with your mama bear instincts, no amount of defensive driving courses can change this - only age and maturity can, and I think this is what the official was trying to impress upon your family.

 

 

asta

 

 

 

I know people want to believe that a public official with this type of job was trying to do good. They want to think that people in positions of responsibility are good and looking out for the public welfare. It makes us feel safe to think that. It just isn't the case here. I think she was taking pleasure in causing pain. The more pain she caused, the harder she hit. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. She has absolute power in that room. She has been corrupted absolutely. She should have her power taken from her. The question is who is brave enough to stand up to her? Hopefully, more than just myself and dh. It will take multiple complaints and effort to do anything about her if it is even possible. When you see tyrrany, you either cower in fear or act. I am not one to cower. And, honestly, too many people are. That is why our country is where it is today. I actually fear for the coming generations. Soon, there will be no where left in this world that you can turn to to find freedom.

[Guest]

...OTOH, I've seen teen girls cry at the drop of a hat in order to get a lesser punishment too. Not saying your DD is one of them, but when you're working with teens, you tend to see a lot of manipulation. Again, not saying your DD is one of those teens.

 

I guess my whole point is that I completely understand your anger. I also know how frustrating it can be working with teens. I'm sure your DD is a lovely girl, but this judge doesn't know her. I would tend to just remind your DD of that fact.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure most, if not all, of the teenaged girls go in there crying.

 

I'm sorry, FLmom. I totally agree, teen drivers tend to feel invincible. I'm also sure many,many teens begin crying while in front of a judge, so the tears probably had no effect on the woman. I would not have been moved by them, either, without knowing the teen.

I think, by seeing the responses to others, that the OP is still highly emotional. If I were the OP, I'd calm down, stop concentrating on it and try to get the dd to do the same, retake the silly class, and chalk it up to another life lesson. Plus, I'd probably give thanks(again) that ther were no physical injuries to anyone.

 

 

Last of all, if something like this will actually cause your dd to be a worse driver, then perhaps she shouldn't be driving. A driver needs to be mature enough to set emotions aside and focus on what's important. And yes, the woman was probably overly harsh, but that beats being one that doesn't give a flip. I'm sure they're allowed to give "advice" on whatever aspect of the teen's life, too, whether needed or not. There's the rub-they're in charge in that room, not the parents.

 

:iagree:100%.

 

As far as the bolded part, that's exactly what I was saying earlier. I think the OP's dd may just be a little too young to have such a large responsibility (driving). This is not an insult to the OP's dd... I think a lot of teenagers are not ready for different reasons. This one just seems too emotionally fragile, and again, that's not an insult. I would not want her to endanger herself, or someone else, and with her mother saying she is a worse driver now... well, that's extremely worrisome!

[Guest]

I know people want to believe that a public official with this type of job was trying to do good. They want to think that people in positions of responsibility are good and looking out for the public welfare. It makes us feel safe to think that. It just isn't the case here. I think she was taking pleasure in causing pain. The more pain she caused, the harder she hit. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. She has absolute power in that room. She has been corrupted absolutely. She should have her power taken from her. The question is who is brave enough to stand up to her? Hopefully, more than just myself and dh. It will take multiple complaints and effort to do anything about her if it is even possible. When you see tyrrany, you either cower in fear or act. I am not one to cower. And, honestly, too many people are. That is why our country is where it is today. I actually fear for the coming generations. Soon, there will be no where left in this world that you can turn to to find freedom.

 

I have heard of out of control officials. As a matter of fact I recently came across a website all about this (will post link when I find it). However, these judges are doing crazy things, like taking children away from their mothers for no reason and then the children are killed. That's serious business there. Being rude isn't on the same level. Sure, she might have been mean, but she didn't do anything to your dd. If you put in a complaint, what would you say? She was mean?

[m4given]

Lolly ~ :grouphug: I'm sorry this happened to your dd. I wish I could see a video of this, but the idea of getting a transcript is a great idea. None of us (except you & your family) were there to hear the tone & see the mannerisms in which the verdict was delivered. I feel for you all.

 

This one just seems too emotionally fragile, and again, that's not an insult. I would not want her to endanger herself, or someone else, and with her mother saying she is a worse driver now... well, that's extremely worrisome!

 

My question is this: If I'm emotionally fragile as an adult, should that disqualify me from driving?

[Guest]

...My question is this: If I'm emotionally fragile as an adult, should that disqualify me from driving?

 

Are you also now a worse driver because of it? Then, hands down, yes. Does no one seem to grasp the seriousness of how many people die in car accidents? It's heartbreaking to hear all the stories... and it's even more so to hear about all the children who have died from another person's bad driving. Sorry, but you have no point here.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Are you also now a worse driver because of it? Then, hands down, yes. Does no one seem to grasp the seriousness of how many people die in car accidents? It's heartbreaking to hear all the stories... and it's even more so to hear about all the children who have died from another person's bad driving. Sorry, but you have no point here.

 

I'm sorry but I have to agree here. Yes, the judge may have been overly harsh with your child. If your daughter broke the law and had points on her license, then it is up to the discretion of the judge what punishment should be applied by law. We wouldn't say that an over 18 driver should have their mom/dad decide punishment for a traffic infraction. The law decides whether that is a ticket, a fine, a suspension, a driving class...

Your child is old enough to drive. If she accepted that responsibility, then she also accepted the consequences of mistakes from driving. Even minor mistakes.

I lost a child I was carrying 5 years ago due to a teenage driver. He was 17. He was trying to turn out into 5 lanes of traffic going left. Another driver stopped to let him out not realizing he was turning left not right and waved him on. I never saw him until too late. I t-boned his vehicle going 35 mph. I had a 4, 3, and 2 year old in the car. I was 3-4 months pregnant. His father had a heart attack on scene. He was in the vehicle. When I hit him, he was spun into another truck coming from the other direction. That vehicle was totalled. I had complications after the wreck. High blood pressure, leaking fluid, and finally lack of heart beat from the baby. We wrecked on Feb. 18, 2005. I lost Leecy on April 5, 2005.

His insurance told me he had some minor infractions before that. I wish to God that he would have had to go to a class or a judge would have scared the daylights out of him. Instead, I have a tree planted to watch grow instead of a child.

So your child got yelled at a bit for breaking the law. At least you have your child.

[Lolly]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure most, if not all, of the teenaged girls go in there crying.

 

 

 

:iagree:100%.

 

As far as the bolded part, that's exactly what I was saying earlier. I think the OP's dd may just be a little too young to have such a large responsibility (driving). This is not an insult to the OP's dd... I think a lot of teenagers are not ready for different reasons. This one just seems too emotionally fragile, and again, that's not an insult. I would not want her to endanger herself, or someone else, and with her mother saying she is a worse driver now... well, that's extremely worrisome!

 

You know what? This woman would have upset you tremendously. You would have most likely been in tears yourself. And, she would have enjoyed watching that.

 

When I said dd was a worse driver, I did not mean that she was a dangerous driver now. I meant it lowered her confidence level. She is not dangerous. It is a relative term. She IS more dangerous than she was previously. In fact, in order to boost her confidence, she is REQUIRED BY ME to drive daily. She is NOT allowed to keep herself from being behind the wheel. Do you have teens? Do you have any drivers? Have you ever taught someone to drive? A part of driving is about having confidence. It is something that comes with experience. Quite honestly, that is the only way to get it. She is, by far, a better driver than most adults. Being a good driver doesn't mean that you will not occasionally have an accident. It doesn't mean that you won't miss one little detail out of the millions that you are processing. Everyone who drives misses little details all of the time. Most of the time, it makes no difference. Every once in a while, it causes a wreck. Sometimes, it causes a fatality. Most of the time a fatality is involved, it is because of some type of gross negligence. But, even then, not always. That is a chance you take every time you get on the road.

 

Jinnah, I suggest you not get on the road at all; not in a car, bus, bicycle, horse, or walking. You do not seem to grasp the inherent danger involved. No matter what, no matter how careful, no matter how attentive, there are just so many variables involved in driving that accidents WILL happen. People WILL die. Harassing innocent drivers who have made a single mistake will not stop it or alter it in any form.

[Tidbits of Learning]

You know what? This woman would have upset you tremendously. You would have most likely been in tears yourself. And, she would have enjoyed watching that.

 

When I said dd was a worse driver, I did not mean that she was a dangerous driver now. I meant it lowered her confidence level. She is not dangerous. It is a relative term. She IS more dangerous than she was previously. In fact, in order to boost her confidence, she is REQUIRED BY ME to drive daily. She is NOT allowed to keep herself from being behind the wheel. Do you have teens? Do you have any drivers? Have you ever taught someone to drive? A part of driving is about having confidence. It is something that comes with experience. Quite honestly, that is the only way to get it. She is, by far, a better driver than most adults. Being a good driver doesn't mean that you will not occasionally have an accident. It doesn't mean that you won't miss one little detail out of the millions that you are processing. Everyone who drives misses little details all of the time. Most of the time, it makes no difference. Every once in a while, it causes a wreck. Sometimes, it causes a fatality. Most of the time a fatality is involved, it is because of some type of gross negligence. But, even then, not always. That is a chance you take every time you get on the road.

 

Jinnah, I suggest you not get on the road at all; not in a car, bus, bicycle, horse, or walking. You do not seem to grasp the inherent danger involved. No matter what, no matter how careful, no matter how attentive, there are just so many variables involved in driving that accidents WILL happen. People WILL die. Harassing innocent drivers who have made a single mistake will not stop it or alter it in any form.

 

Your child is not above the law. You are not the final say in the law of the road. The laws of your state are the final say. Confidence is important, but also knowing that she was in the wrong and caused an accident is important.

Do you not hear how many people are citing loved ones lost due to small driving errors?

Be happy that the accident isn't worse, that you have your child, and no one was killed. She had to listen to a lecture. Let it go.

Some of us can never let go the pain and hurt of an accident. I can never hold my child. I never got to see my child. I had to sign a horrible paper and have a d&e b/c I was bleeding internally and would have died to give birth to my stillborn child caused by a 17 year olds minor traffic infraction. It really irks me that you are so defensive b/c your child was lectured sternly by a judge. We all have to deal with power trips by those in authority. If she is old enough to drive, then she should be old enough to deal with the consequences. I will never see my child old enough to drive or teach her to drive. You are being terribly insensitive to those that have lost loved ones to accidents that started out as a minor mistake.

You need to get off the defensive and really think about what you are writing. You are being very immature and wishing all kinds of bad things on someone who is just disagreeing with you.

Your child accepted the rules of the road by getting a license. You need to accept that sometimes that means if she makes a mistake no matter how minor that you aren't the final say in how it gets dealt with concerning punishment. We all have to answer to the state and the laws of the road. It should not be any different for a minor who lives at home.

[Guest]

You know what? This woman would have upset you tremendously. You would have most likely been in tears yourself. And, she would have enjoyed watching that.

 

When I said dd was a worse driver, I did not mean that she was a dangerous driver now. I meant it lowered her confidence level. She is not dangerous. It is a relative term. She IS more dangerous than she was previously. In fact, in order to boost her confidence, she is REQUIRED BY ME to drive daily. She is NOT allowed to keep herself from being behind the wheel. Do you have teens? Do you have any drivers? Have you ever taught someone to drive? A part of driving is about having confidence. It is something that comes with experience. Quite honestly, that is the only way to get it. She is, by far, a better driver than most adults. Being a good driver doesn't mean that you will not occasionally have an accident. It doesn't mean that you won't miss one little detail out of the millions that you are processing. Everyone who drives misses little details all of the time. Most of the time, it makes no difference. Every once in a while, it causes a wreck. Sometimes, it causes a fatality. Most of the time a fatality is involved, it is because of some type of gross negligence. But, even then, not always. That is a chance you take every time you get on the road.

 

Jinnah, I suggest you not get on the road at all; not in a car, bus, bicycle, horse, or walking. You do not seem to grasp the inherent danger involved. No matter what, no matter how careful, no matter how attentive, there are just so many variables involved in driving that accidents WILL happen. People WILL die. Harassing innocent drivers who have made a single mistake will not stop it or alter it in any form.

 

Honestly, after reading what OpenMinded just posted, I just really don't care what you have to say, with all due respect.

 

I am not harrassing innocent drivers who made a single mistake. I haven't said one word to your dd. To me it sounds like you need to relax a little. You are upset, so you aren't seeing the big picture! Maybe after some time has passed, you will realize what everyone is saying here. Good luck to you on that.

 

Oh, and no, I wouldn't be crying. My father is a Superior Court judge that deals with murderers and child abusers (much more serious than traffic violations), so judges/courtrooms do not intimidate me. I have been in many a courthouse (as a spectator), and seen different judges in action. Lots of people cry and boo hoo, but you know what? Most wouldn't be in there if they hadn't done something wrong. I know your dd didn't do anything terribly wrong, but even murderers are in there boo hooing. It gets old. My father would not have been rude to your dd, as he is very sweet, but maybe this woman who was has seen some horrible accidents and maybe she will prevent something more serious from happening to your dd. When your dd does drive, she will definitley not want a repeat, right?

 

ETA: error

Edited May 26, 2010 by Jinnah

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Your child is not above the law. You are not the final say in the law of the road. The laws of your state are the final say. Confidence is important, but also knowing that she was in the wrong and caused an accident is important.

Do you not hear how many people are citing loved ones lost due to small driving errors?

Be happy that the accident isn't worse, that you have your child, and no one was killed. She had to listen to a lecture. Let it go.

Some of us can never let go the pain and hurt of an accident. I can never hold my child. I never got to see my child. I had to sign a horrible paper and have a d&e b/c I was bleeding internally and would have died to give birth to my stillborn child caused by a 17 year olds minor traffic infraction. It really irks me that you are so defensive b/c your child was lectured sternly by a judge. We all have to deal with power trips by those in authority. If she is old enough to drive, then she should be old enough to deal with the consequences. I will never see my child old enough to drive or teach her to drive. You are being terribly insensitive to those that have lost loved ones to accidents that started out as a minor mistake.

You need to get off the defensive and really think about what you are writing. You are being very immature and wishing all kinds of bad things on someone who is just disagreeing with you.

Your child accepted the rules of the road by getting a license. You need to accept that sometimes that means if she makes a mistake no matter how minor that you aren't the final say in how it gets dealt with concerning punishment. We all have to answer to the state and the laws of the road. It should not be any different for a minor who lives at home.

 

Honestly, after reading what OpenMinded just posted, I just really don't care what you have to say, with all due respect.

 

I am not harrassing innocent drivers who made a single mistake. I haven't said one word to your dd. To me it sounds like you need to relax a little. You are upset, so you aren't seeing the big picture! Maybe after some time has passed, you will realize what everyone is saying here. Good luck to you on that.

 

Oh, and no, I wouldn't be crying. My father's a Superior Court judge that deals with murderers and child abusers (much more serious than traffic violations), so judges/courtrooms do not intimidate me. I have been in many a courthouse (as a spectator), and seen different judges in action. Lots of people cry and boo hoo, but you know what? Most wouldn't be in there if they hadn't done something wrong. I know your dd didn't do anything terribly wrong, but even murderers are in there boo hooing. It gets old. My father would not have been rude to your dd, as he is very sweet, but maybe this woman who was has seen some horrible accidents and maybe she will prevent something more serious from happening to your dd. When your dd does drive, she will definitley not want repeat, right?

 

I'm sorry, but after reading this entire thread my thoughts are summed up in these posts as well.

 

A mother can enable her daughter to be a delicate, fragile, china-dish sort of person, but there are trade-offs for that. One of the trade-offs might be that the daughter is not prepared to be responsible for two tons of steel that are traveling 30 to 70 mph.

[Audrey]

I'm sorry but I have to agree here. Yes, the judge may have been overly harsh with your child. If your daughter broke the law and had points on her license, then it is up to the discretion of the judge what punishment should be applied by law. We wouldn't say that an over 18 driver should have their mom/dad decide punishment for a traffic infraction. The law decides whether that is a ticket, a fine, a suspension, a driving class...

Your child is old enough to drive. If she accepted that responsibility, then she also accepted the consequences of mistakes from driving. Even minor mistakes.

I lost a child I was carrying 5 years ago due to a teenage driver. He was 17. He was trying to turn out into 5 lanes of traffic going left. Another driver stopped to let him out not realizing he was turning left not right and waved him on. I never saw him until too late. I t-boned his vehicle going 35 mph. I had a 4, 3, and 2 year old in the car. I was 3-4 months pregnant. His father had a heart attack on scene. He was in the vehicle. When I hit him, he was spun into another truck coming from the other direction. That vehicle was totalled. I had complications after the wreck. High blood pressure, leaking fluid, and finally lack of heart beat from the baby. We wrecked on Feb. 18, 2005. I lost Leecy on April 5, 2005.

His insurance told me he had some minor infractions before that. I wish to God that he would have had to go to a class or a judge would have scared the daylights out of him. Instead, I have a tree planted to watch grow instead of a child.

So your child got yelled at a bit for breaking the law. At least you have your child.

 

:grouphug: I'm so sorry.

 

I hope the OP finally "gets it" after reading your post. In the end, it isn't about her dd. At. All. It is about the safety of everyone on the road. So, a judge got all power-trippy and scary. So what? She sees this every. single. day. And, she's probably angry to have to see it all the time, so she may go a bit overboard trying to scare every teen she sees into being more responsible drivers. Because even minor infractions and completely innocent mistakes can lead to irreversible tragedies.

 

THAT is what it is about.

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but after reading this entire thread my thoughts are summed up in these posts as well.

 

A mother can enable her daughter to be a delicate, fragile, china-dish sort of person, but there are trade-offs for that. One of the trade-offs might be that the daughter is not prepared to be responsible for two tons of steel that are traveling 30 to 70 mph.

 

:grouphug: I'm so sorry.

 

I hope the OP finally "gets it" after reading your post. In the end, it isn't about her dd. At. All. It is about the safety of everyone on the road. So, a judge got all power-trippy and scary. So what? She sees this every. single. day. And, she's probably angry to have to see it all the time, so she may go a bit overboard trying to scare every teen she sees into being more responsible drivers. Because even minor infractions and completely innocent mistakes can lead to irreversible tragedies.

 

THAT is what it is about.

 

Thank you, both of you. Very well said.

[Tidbits of Learning]

:grouphug: I'm so sorry.

 

I hope the OP finally "gets it" after reading your post. In the end, it isn't about her dd. At. All. It is about the safety of everyone on the road. So, a judge got all power-trippy and scary. So what? She sees this every. single. day. And, she's probably angry to have to see it all the time, so she may go a bit overboard trying to scare every teen she sees into being more responsible drivers. Because even minor infractions and completely innocent mistakes can lead to irreversible tragedies.

 

THAT is what it is about.

 

:grouphug: Thank you.

[m4given]

Are you also now a worse driver because of it? Then, hands down, yes. Does no one seem to grasp the seriousness of how many people die in car accidents? It's heartbreaking to hear all the stories... and it's even more so to hear about all the children who have died from another person's bad driving. Sorry, but you have no point here.

 

I was not trying to make a point. I was just trying to further understand your position. Thanks for addressing it. This (the privilege of driving) is something that I've thought about on the "other side of life" with elderly neighbors and so on.

Edited May 26, 2010 by m4given
Correct a typo.

[Laura Corin]

:grouphug: I'm so sorry.

 

I hope the OP finally "gets it" after reading your post. In the end, it isn't about her dd. At. All. It is about the safety of everyone on the road. So, a judge got all power-trippy and scary. So what? She sees this every. single. day. And, she's probably angry to have to see it all the time, so she may go a bit overboard trying to scare every teen she sees into being more responsible drivers. Because even minor infractions and completely innocent mistakes can lead to irreversible tragedies.

 

THAT is what it is about.

 

I was stopped by police in California for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign. The manoeuvre was completely safe - I could see thirty yards up the road I was joining - but it was illegal and exactly the kind of minor infringement which might point up a cavalier attitude to road safety. I was in the wrong. Despite having caused no accident and put no one in danger, I was fined and forced to watch a horrendous film about drink driving (although I had drunk no alcohol that day) scenes from which have stayed with me ever since. They wanted to scare me because I had acted irresponsibly. That's fine. I was in the wrong.

 

Laura

Edited May 26, 2010 by Laura Corin

[Jean in Newcastle]

Perhaps some counseling for the daughter and family might be in order? The emotional responses here seem to be more extreme than the norm.

 

This sounds so stilted - that's because I've sat for 2 days trying to work out the courage to suggest what I know could be taken very badly. My heart behind my suggestion is that I know that I would not want to hold on to so much anger. . .or so much anxiety.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[silliness7]

Your child is not above the law. You are not the final say in the law of the road. The laws of your state are the final say. Confidence is important, but also knowing that she was in the wrong and caused an accident is important.

Do you not hear how many people are citing loved ones lost due to small driving errors?

Be happy that the accident isn't worse, that you have your child, and no one was killed. She had to listen to a lecture. Let it go.

Some of us can never let go the pain and hurt of an accident. I can never hold my child. I never got to see my child. I had to sign a horrible paper and have a d&e b/c I was bleeding internally and would have died to give birth to my stillborn child caused by a 17 year olds minor traffic infraction. It really irks me that you are so defensive b/c your child was lectured sternly by a judge. We all have to deal with power trips by those in authority. If she is old enough to drive, then she should be old enough to deal with the consequences. I will never see my child old enough to drive or teach her to drive. You are being terribly insensitive to those that have lost loved ones to accidents that started out as a minor mistake.

You need to get off the defensive and really think about what you are writing. You are being very immature and wishing all kinds of bad things on someone who is just disagreeing with you.

Your child accepted the rules of the road by getting a license. You need to accept that sometimes that means if she makes a mistake no matter how minor that you aren't the final say in how it gets dealt with concerning punishment. We all have to answer to the state and the laws of the road. It should not be any different for a minor who lives at home.

 

:crying: Now I'm crying. I'm so sorry for your loss OpenMinded :grouphug:

 

and :iagree:100% with your assessment of the situation. Thank you for sharing your story.

[2cents]

I would not take on the judge.

 

It will only serve to continue the angst that you and dd are now feeling. Sometimes police officers/judges/authority figures just aren't that nice. But, in the end, they are the authority over that matter and pressing back will only continue to entangle you (and dd) in the situation and be a bitter pill in the end.

 

Lisa

 

I have to agree. Judges and their fellow personnel protect each other and you wouldn't be the first to find themselves targeted by a po'd judge who has a God complex. I would recommend contacting the court reporter or whoever is in charge of maintaining the minutes of the proceedings and get a transcript. You never know when that will come in handy. I don't recommend rolling over and allowing her to continue to abuse her position however. From this point on, I would only attend any court appearances with a lawyer and witnesses.

[Gretchen in NJ]

Your child is not above the law. You are not the final say in the law of the road. The laws of your state are the final say. Confidence is important, but also knowing that she was in the wrong and caused an accident is important.

Do you not hear how many people are citing loved ones lost due to small driving errors?

Be happy that the accident isn't worse, that you have your child, and no one was killed. She had to listen to a lecture. Let it go.

Some of us can never let go the pain and hurt of an accident. I can never hold my child. I never got to see my child. I had to sign a horrible paper and have a d&e b/c I was bleeding internally and would have died to give birth to my stillborn child caused by a 17 year olds minor traffic infraction. It really irks me that you are so defensive b/c your child was lectured sternly by a judge. We all have to deal with power trips by those in authority. If she is old enough to drive, then she should be old enough to deal with the consequences. I will never see my child old enough to drive or teach her to drive. You are being terribly insensitive to those that have lost loved ones to accidents that started out as a minor mistake.

You need to get off the defensive and really think about what you are writing. You are being very immature and wishing all kinds of bad things on someone who is just disagreeing with you.

Your child accepted the rules of the road by getting a license. You need to accept that sometimes that means if she makes a mistake no matter how minor that you aren't the final say in how it gets dealt with concerning punishment. We all have to answer to the state and the laws of the road. It should not be any different for a minor who lives at home.

You have it all wrong here. You were not there. You don't even know Lolly, and are twisting her words to meet your world view of the situation. You are inserting your story into Lolly's dd's story. Our system of justice is supposed to be blind.

 

It is one thing for a judge to lecture a driver and another to be verbally abusive to the driver. She was verbally abusive and some of her remarks were racial. That is just plain wrong.

 

A lecture from the judge is fine for the young driver, but she didn't receive one. She received verbal abuse instead. Her parents should have received praise for taking it upon themselves to have their daughter take an extra safe driving course before one was ordered. They did not. If the course was not on the recommended list, then the judge should have seen whether the course met the county's requirements. She is a judge and has the power to accept the course.

 

A job does not make you mature. There are other activities that will do so. Lolly's children are heavily involved in an activity which will make it next to impossible for them to complete school work and have a job at the same time. It is not up to the judge to decide what is right for Lolly's family. It is Lolly and her dh's right to decide.

 

I have been in six car accidents in my life. None of them were my fault, and I was only driving in three of them. I was 26 when the worst one happened to me: number 3. I would like to tell you about it, but I have little or no memory of it and for several days before and after the accident. There were witnesses at the scene who saw the driver turn left into my car. My engine ended up on my lap, and my knees were pinned into my car. If I had not worn my seat belt, I would have been split in half the police officer informed me.

 

Then, there was number 5. I was a passenger. My bf at the time was driving us home from Boston when a drunk driver hit us from behind. Our bumpers locked together. My bf hit his break, his emergency break, and put our car into reverse, and the drunk driver still had us doing 90 miles per hour. We spun and spun and spun around and around and around. It seemed to go on forever. We almost turned over several times. I remember seeing the grass through the passenger side window. Yes, the car was on it's side spinning while it was still attached to the drunk's car. Some how it flopped back down the correct way.

 

Both of these drivers were not teens. I still had years of PT and a few operations. Hmm...none of my accidents involved teens. They were all adults. The drunk didn't even have a license.:001_huh:

[Guest]

You have it all wrong here. You were not there. You don't even know Lolly, and are twisting her words to meet your world view of the situation. You are inserting your story into Lolly's dd's story. Our system of justice is supposed to be blind.

 

It is one thing for a judge to lecture a driver and another to be verbally abusive to the driver. She was verbally abusive and some of her remarks were racial. That is just plain wrong.

 

A lecture from the judge is fine for the young driver, but she didn't receive one. She received verbal abuse instead. Her parents should have received praise for taking it upon themselves to have their daughter take an extra safe driving course before one was ordered. They did not. If the course was not on the recommended list, then the judge should have seen whether the course met the county's requirements. She is a judge and has the power to accept the course.

 

A job does not make you mature. There are other activities that will do so. Lolly's children are heavily involved in an activity which will make it next to impossible for them to complete school work and have a job at the same time. It is not up to the judge to decide what is right for Lolly's family. It is Lolly and her dh's right to decide.

 

I have been in six car accidents in my life. None of them were my fault, and I was only driving in three of them. I was 26 when the worst one happened to me: number 3. I would like to tell you about it, but I have little or no memory of it and for several days before and after the accident. There were witnesses at the scene who saw the driver turn left into my car. My engine ended up on my lap, and my knees were pinned into my car. If I had not worn my seat belt, I would have been split in half the police officer informed me.

 

Then, there was number 5. I was a passenger. My bf at the time was driving us home from Boston when a drunk driver hit us from behind. Our bumpers locked together. My bf hit his break, his emergency break, and put our car into reverse, and the drunk driver still had us doing 90 miles per hour. We spun and spun and spun around and around and around. It seemed to go on forever. We almost turned over several times. I remember seeing the grass through the passenger side window. Yes, the car was on it's side spinning while it was still attached to the drunk's car. Some how it flopped back down the correct way.

 

Both of these drivers were not teens. I still had years of PT and a few operations. Hmm...none of my accidents involved teens. They were all adults. The drunk didn't even have a license.:001_huh:

 

 

Oh my, where to begin here...

 

I'm just going to keep this short and simple. It is a known fact that teenagers cause more accidents. No one ever said ALL accidents, so it doesn't matter that your accidents were caused by adults. We are talking a completely different situation here.

 

You are the one who has it wrong here, not OpenMinded. :confused: You have also now inserted your story, into the situation. :confused: OpenMinded's was relevent, as we were talking about teen drivers.

 

Also, how exactly was her dd verbally abused? What exactly did the judge say? Or are you just taking the word of the OP, who is clearly just angry and may even be exaggerating things. I just can't imagine a whole courtroom of people sitting by letting a non-judge abuse a teenager.

 

Also, maybe the judge did check to see if the class was okay, and it wasn't. If it was not long enough, that could disqualify it right there.

 

I'm still in shock that you would have the attitude that you have towards someone who went through something so terrible. :001_huh: Why go off on her?

[Tidbits of Learning]

I have been in plenty of wrecks myself. Mainly with adults. I do not think a job makes one mature. I think the op was immature for berating someone and saying that they shouldn't be behind the wheel because they don't have the same viewpoint as the op.

Yes, my story is my story. Her story is her story. Your story is your story. I am merely pointing out that a minor traffic violation can have lifelong altering ramifications. Many people wrote of losing loved ones.

The law is the law is the law. I don't know what was said and neither does anyone else that wasn't in the court room. Yet, when you accept responsibility to have a license and drive...you accept that officers of the law and the court system can and will cite you if you are in the wrong.

A minor accident can have major ramifications and it isn't up to a parent to punish for a public accident. It is up to the state that issues the license. You accept these laws when you accept the license. The parent accepts that their child will be seen as a driver in the eyes of the court totally separate from the parent.

My point of view is that she broke the law and got a lecture or a verbal lashing or whatever you want to call it. I have been there done that in front of a judge after running a yellow/red light and causing an accident. I was in the wrong. I broke the law. I listened to the judge berate me and fine me hundreds of dollars.

I do think that it is the job of the court to ensure that the laws are upheld. I would not want every teenager that caused a wreck or had a minor traffic infraction to just be held accountable to their parents. The parents didn't issue the license. The state did and the state has laws that must be followed in order to keep a license.

We can trade words all day long, but the judge didn't break the law. And if the op feels the judge broke the law by berating her child, then she needs to hire a lawyer and file a complaint. Plain and simple. A lawyer would tell you in a few minutes whether you had a leg to stand on in court complaining against the judges actions. A lawyer not the hive mind would be the best place to consult if you truly felt wronged.

Edited May 26, 2010 by OpenMinded

[elegantlion]

Also, how exactly was her dd verbally abused? What exactly did the judge say? Or are you just taking the word of the OP, who is clearly just angry and may even be exaggerating things. I just can't imagine a whole courtroom of people sitting by letting a non-judge abuse a teenager.

 

 

 

Gretchen and I both have had many conversations with Lolly off of this board. In many situations Lolly has been the voice of reason for me. I would characterize her as being the epitome of laid back, very much like her avatar. I've known Lolly for over two years and in that time I have never seen her so upset. She is not just angry and I don't believe exaggeration is a term that could ever be used to describe her behavior.

 

It is not simply the driving issue here. It is the issue whether someone in authority has the right to verbally berate a child and bring issues into the situation, such as volunteer work and a job, that have no bearing upon the citation.

 

Cars are lethal weapons. With the amount of driving that Lolly's family does I have no doubt they are well aware of that fact. I am sorry for the losses people have experienced due to car accidents, I too have had lost family in that manner.

[Gretchen in NJ]

Oh my, where to begin here...

 

I'm just going to keep this short and simple. It is a known fact that teenagers cause more accidents. No one ever said ALL accidents, so it doesn't matter that your accidents were caused by adults. We are talking a completely different situation here.

 

You are the one who has it wrong here, not OpenMinded. :confused: You have also now inserted your story, into the situation. :confused: OpenMinded's was relevent, as we were talking about teen drivers.

 

Also, how exactly was her dd verbally abused? What exactly did the judge say? Or are you just taking the word of the OP, who is clearly just angry and may even be exaggerating things. I just can't imagine a whole courtroom of people sitting by letting a non-judge abuse a teenager.

 

Also, maybe the judge did check to see if the class was okay, and it wasn't. If it was not long enough, that could disqualify it right there.

 

I'm still in shock that you would have the attitude that you have towards someone who went through something so terrible. :001_huh: Why go off on her?

 

I know Lolly and have for years now. I know her not to exaggerate at all. I know her to be a cool level headed extreemly mature person. I also know you and OpenMinded do not know Lolly. If you did, you would not have written your posts as you did on this thread. They show how little you know of Lolly, Lolly's family, and their situation.

 

I do not know OpenMinded at all.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I know Lolly and have for years now. I know her not to exaggerate at all. I know her to be a cool level headed extreemly mature person. I also know you and OpenMinded do not know Lolly. If you did, you would not have written your posts as you did on this thread. They show how little you know of Lolly, Lolly's family, and their situation.

 

I do not know OpenMinded at all.

 

It is an open forum on the internet. We are not all going to know each other and we are not all going to agree.

I do not know Lolly or her child, but she wrote on an open forum and I gave my opinion. It isn't personal. She wrote and we replied. If she didn't want to hear opposing views then she shouldn't put it on an open forum.

If she wanted to know whether the judge was in the wrong, she should consult an attorney. An attorney can listen to court tapes and read the transcript and truly tell her if the judge was out of line.

I, however, believe that a parent isn't the final say in a traffic violation. The law is and that is why they issue the license not the parents.

Also, I rarely tell the story of our loss to people in real life that did not know us at the time. I have never posted the whole story on this board and I am pretty sure I never posted the whole story on the loss board I was on at the time. I saw it as relevant and I am sure anyone in the court system has seen many times what a simple mistake can turn into and how many lives can be changed in a split second.

Edited May 26, 2010 by OpenMinded

[Guest]

Elegantlion and Gretchen in NJ:

 

Ummm, Lolly has given quite a few people a certain impression of her by several of the things she has said, that are far from level-headed:

 

"I have never wanted to do someone bodily harm SO badly. The judge was a little &^%$#! "

 

"It just makes me so very, very angry. Today I am a bit calmer, I'm at the I'd really like to slit you from gullet to tail and leave you hanging alive for the birds to pick at your innards stage. Much calmer than yesterday."

 

These are just two I found quickly. I thought she said more, earlier, but some posts have been edited.

 

Also, she says this judge verbally abused her dd, but did not say how. Normally, one could take another person's word on it, but after the above, you should be able to see how other's might think she is hot-headed or emotionally unstable... not calm, mature, and level-headed!!!

Edited May 26, 2010 by Jinnah

[Tidbits of Learning]

It is not simply the driving issue here. It is the issue whether someone in authority has the right to verbally berate a child and bring issues into the situation, such as volunteer work and a job, that have no bearing upon the citation.

 

 

 

If a child accepts a license, then they accept the laws of the state. If you break the law and go before a judge, then you should be prepared for them to not be so nice about it. It is common practice for community service, jobs, and other outside references to be used to ascertain character and chances of this happening again in juvenile cases.

[Gretchen in NJ]

Ummm, Lolly has given quite a few people a certain impression of her by several of the things she has said, that are far from level-headed:

 

"I have never wanted to do someone bodily harm SO badly. The judge was a little &^%$#! "

 

"It just makes me so very, very angry. Today I am a bit calmer, I'm at the I'd really like to slit you from gullet to tail and leave you hanging alive for the birds to pick at your innards stage. Much calmer than yesterday."

 

These are just two I found quickly. I thought she said more, earlier, but some posts have been edited.

 

Also, she says this judge verbally abused her dd, but did not say how. Normally, one could take another person's word on it, but after the above, you should be able to see how other's might think she is hot-headed or emotionally unstable, not calm, mature, and level-headed!!!

You began you homework, but all of your quotes have to do with this thread. Don't forget to finish reading all of her posts. There are over 2000 for you to read. Then, you will begin to see what Brindee, Elegantlion, and myself are saying.

[Tidbits of Learning]

You began you homework, but all of your quotes have to do with this thread. Don't forget to finish reading all of her posts. There are over 2000 for you to read. Then, you will begin to see what Brindee, Elegantlion, and myself are saying.

 

I do not know Lolly and I am not quoting posts. I simply don't agree that the punishment by the judge is out of line. We can play this is my friend and she is great all day long. There is a reason that the laws are in place and a reason that not everyone on this thread agreed that it was out of line.

If you put yourself out there online, expect not everyone to agree and expect some to cut you to the quick about some of the deepest, most painful events of your life.

Trust me. I learned a lesson that reminds me so much of high school girls right now that I won't forget it again on this site.

[Irene Lynn]

I'm sorry, but after reading this entire thread my thoughts are summed up in these posts as well.

 

A mother can enable her daughter to be a delicate, fragile, china-dish sort of person, but there are trade-offs for that. One of the trade-offs might be that the daughter is not prepared to be responsible for two tons of steel that are traveling 30 to 70 mph.

 

First of all, please hear my post in a pleasant sort of voice. :) I have been thinking about this thread and debating whether to post or not. I am not overreacting to your statement, but it just encouraged me to type out some thoughts.

 

Yes, a mother CAN enable her daughter to be a delicate, fragile, china-dish sort of person, but that does NOT mean that this is the case in this situation. Some kids are just born sensitive and no matter how much a parent works with them and gives them opportunities to grow, they are just a whole lot slower growing in that area. I was proud of how tough I was as a kid. And even now, if you need someone to stand her ground in a tough situation, I can do that. I rarely cried as a child, but I now have a daughter, who cries over everything and it is not for drama. She does not want anyone to respond to her tears, because that will just make things worse, but for some crazy reason she just cries for any sort of stress, happiness, sorrow, etc. When she was little, she cried and became overwhelmed in crowds or too much activity and noise. She is now 16 and working on driving.

 

I agree that a judge yelling at my daughter about her driving might frustrate me, knowing my daughter, but I would understand it and know that you do have to be prepared for all sorts of things, when you take on adult responsibilities. But once the judge started telling her that she "should" have a job and "should" be paying for her own car insurance and "should" be doing more volunteer work, as though she is clearly not a good citizen, then I would have a lot more maternal frustration. My daughter is VERY careful to follow rules and do the right thing. She is a very good student and has been slowly stepping out to do more things on her own as she is ready. (When I push her emotionally and socially, it rarely ever has positive results.) My daughter is also very literal. If a judge said all that about her she would end up feeling like she wasn't worth much.

 

I have been reading all these posts feeling like I can see both sides. I really am a "suck it up" type of person and I agree with those responses, but as a mother of a girl, who JUST. ISN"T that kind of person and who I have worked so hard to get her to grow up in time to be the wonderful adult she can be with legs underneath her, I would be very frustrated with the extra parts of the speech. I would wince, but be fine with the parts of the speech that had to do with driving. It would in no way have scared my daughter straight. It would have made her doubt her own ability to make a decent decision, but I would have been alright with a speech like that. People in court see all sorts and probably very few of them are like my daughter. I totally get that.

 

We have been blessed with a second child, who appears to be much more like me. He is a tough little guy. (Yes, my dh tends to shed tears, too and is sensitive like dd, but in a more guy sort of way.) He is just plain different. It isn't about parenting or overparenting or whatever, but just the way they have been born. In fact he has helped dd grow up some, but then again she was at the right place in her own personal growth to deal with him. If I had only had our son, I would have had a hard time realizing how someone could really be like our daughter. I might have thought that the parents had contributed to the sensitivity. There is a type of person like you suggest, who is spoiled or made to think that the whole world is scary or something, but some are just sensitive in a certain type of way from birth. I am thankful that our son is not.

 

Oh, and oddly enough, our very sensitive daughter takes her responsibilities very seriously, which is why it hurts her so very much, when she is chastised as though she doesn't. (I really do know that your post wasn't about me or my daughter :), but I am just playing it out in my mind how my dd would fit in this situation.) And since she takes it so seriously, having a judge tell her that she was not showing enough responsibility because she wasn't doing all those extra things that the "judge" arbitrarily thought she "should" be doing, would really hurt even more. She is very trustworthy. Now having said that, our dd doesn't have her license yet, because, no matter how intelligent she is, she just isn't quite ready to be set on the roads by herself and she agrees. She is not a natural driver, so we will work on that until I wouldn't be afraid to see her coming my direction. LOL She might be able to pass a test, but we don't think she is ready yet, especially in our city. I have heard too many stories of those beginning drivers lately. Fortunately, no one has been hurt in the situations that I know about personally, but it isn't worth the chance, when those beginners are not ready.

 

Okay, I am done rambling. :tongue_smilie:

[nmoira]

You began you homework, but all of your quotes have to do with this thread. Don't forget to finish reading all of her posts. There are over 2000 for you to read. Then, you will begin to see what Brindee, Elegantlion, and myself are saying.

Oh my, I wish I hadn't come back to this thread.

 

I don't know Lolly personally, but online I've never known her to be at all prone to exaggeration or attention seeking or flighty. To see her as worked up as in the initial post is something completely new to me. If Lolly says the judge's behaviour was unreasonable, I believe her.

[Guest]

You began you homework, but all of your quotes have to do with this thread. Don't forget to finish reading all of her posts. There are over 2000 for you to read. Then, you will begin to see what Brindee, Elegantlion, and myself are saying.

 

 

No thanks... I don't have to read everything else she has ever written when I was just expressing my viewpoint on this topic! Anyone who has said anything against her has been reamed! It's quite unneccessary! Now we have to go read everything she has ever written? Are you kidding? They were HER quotes! She shouldn't have said them if she didn't want to give a certain impression!

 

It's obvious you are all friends, and are going to defend 'till the end, but if she can't handle other's opinions without having her friends jump in to defend her, she shouldn't have posted all this on here. This is all very unneccessary. There is no reason for her friends to be after anyone who disagrees. It's kinda weirding me out, actually.

 

Everyone else: Beware before you disagree!!!

Edited May 26, 2010 by Jinnah

[MagistraMichelle]

Wow, after reading all the replies I think I might delete my thread. I mean, gosh, there were some harsh words.

 

So sorry Lolly. I have a sweet, sensitive daughter who would have been destroyed as well.

 

Keep her driving though, because she needs to overcome this hurdle and she will in time.

 

I have sat in courtrooms where judges behave like demigods. It is rather disheartening.

 

Michelle

who was an EMT and married to a peace officer in a former life.

[Guest]

...Trust me. I learned a lesson that reminds me so much of high school girls right now that I won't forget it again on this site.

 

Exactly. I'm astounded. We're just going to have to "let them win" or this will go on forever, huh?

[nmoira]

Everyone else: Beware before you disagree!!!

Oh please.

 

One can disagree without getting personal. One can agree with the decision of the judge but still show some empathy for the manner in which the girl was treated. One can even approve of the manner in which she was treated without casting aspersions on the manner in which the girl has been raised. But at that point I think we should back off because we simply don't know enough to judge.

[TravelingChris]

Actually I think that volunteer job and/or a paying job have a lot to do with traffic violations or any violation of the law. Judges like to see teens having outside activities besides school and particularly ones that engender responsibility like volunteering or working.

 

My one suggestion for anyone whose child has any traffic infraction or more serious charge is to hire a lawyer to represent the child in court. Will the child get a lecture- maybe - but your rights will be protected and it will all go so much easier.

 

If the OP's poster has confidence problems and anxiety over this issue for six months, I suggest that the girl needs counseling. That is abnormal and this comes from a mother of a child with anxiety issues who does get counseling. Even her anxiety isn't to that degree.

[elegantlion]

If a child accepts a license, then they accept the laws of the state. If you break the law and go before a judge, then you should be prepared for them to not be so nice about it. It is common practice for community service, jobs, and other outside references to be used to ascertain character and chances of this happening again in juvenile cases.

 

Really? It's okay, judges don't have to have sense of decorum? :confused: I wonder if the judge even gave the crying child the time to compose herself and explain the activities she was involved in since the parents were not allowed to speak up.

 

 

 

I agree that a judge yelling at my daughter about her driving might frustrate me, knowing my daughter, but I would understand it and know that you do have to be prepared for all sorts of things, when you take on adult responsibilities. But once the judge started telling her that she "should" have a job and "should" be paying for her own car insurance and "should" be doing more volunteer work, as though she is clearly not a good citizen, then I would have a lot more maternal frustration. My daughter is VERY careful to follow rules and do the right thing. She is a very good student and has been slowly stepping out to do more things on her own as she is ready. (When I push her emotionally and socially, it rarely ever has positive results.) My daughter is also very literal. If a judge said all that about her she would end up feeling like she wasn't worth much.

 

:iagree:

[elegantlion]

No thanks... I don't have to read everything else she has ever written when I was just expressing my viewpoint on this topic! Anyone who has said anything against her has been reamed! It's quite unneccessary! Now we have to go read everything she has ever written? Are you kidding? They were HER quotes! She shouldn't have said them if she didn't want to give a certain impression!

 

It's obvious you are all friends, and are going to defend 'till the end, but if she can't handle other's opinions without having her friends jump in to defend her, she shouldn't have posted all this on here. This is all very unneccessary. There is no reason for her friends to be after anyone who disagrees. It's kinda weirding me out, actually.

 

Everyone else: Beware before you disagree!!!

 

We may be coming to her defense, but you said that she was just angry and possibly exaggerating. You stated "I just can't imagine a whole courtroom of people sitting by letting a non-judge abuse a teenager". Perhaps that is why Lolly IS so upset, because exactly that happened. Honestly, I was staying out of it until I read that. This is a message board of many thousands of people and I don't expect you or anyone else to know them all. I also don't expect to make generalizations about a person's character by reading about one incident in their life. I was simply posting to defend her character and hopefully explain a little more of Lolly's personality.

 

In recent memory there have been several threads of incidents where posters have gotten emotional about an incident and have made angry remarks against neighbors, MILs, etc. I try not to define that poster by that one incident and what they say in it. It may be the one thing that absolutely has blown their top. I would hope if I have one of those incidents and my character is challenged that my friends would post in my defense.

[Lolly]

Gretchen and I both have had many conversations with Lolly off of this board. In many situations Lolly has been the voice of reason for me. I would characterize her as being the epitome of laid back, very much like her avatar. I've known Lolly for over two years and in that time I have never seen her so upset. She is not just angry and I don't believe exaggeration is a term that could ever be used to describe her behavior.

 

It is not simply the driving issue here. It is the issue whether someone in authority has the right to verbally berate a child and bring issues into the situation, such as volunteer work and a job, that have no bearing upon the citation.

 

Cars are lethal weapons. With the amount of driving that Lolly's family does I have no doubt they are well aware of that fact. I am sorry for the losses people have experienced due to car accidents, I too have had lost family in that manner.

 

Exactly.

 

It is an open forum on the internet. We are not all going to know each other and we are not all going to agree.

I do not know Lolly or her child, but she wrote on an open forum and I gave my opinion. It isn't personal. She wrote and we replied. If she didn't want to hear opposing views then she shouldn't put it on an open forum.

If she wanted to know whether the judge was in the wrong, she should consult an attorney. An attorney can listen to court tapes and read the transcript and truly tell her if the judge was out of line.

I, however, believe that a parent isn't the final say in a traffic violation. The law is and that is why they issue the license not the parents.

Also, I rarely tell the story of our loss to people in real life that did not know us at the time. I have never posted the whole story on this board and I am pretty sure I never posted the whole story on the loss board I was on at the time. I saw it as relevant and I am sure anyone in the court system has seen many times what a simple mistake can turn into and how many lives can be changed in a split second.

 

I don't want to know if the judge was wrong. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was. I want to know what can I do about it. Even a lawyer won't take on a judge because the judge has power over them.(Turns out she isn't actually a judge, but has the same powers. I found this out while gathering information to fill out a form that the first responder provided a link for. I never said that a parent should have a final say here. I do think that parents should be allowed to speak and assist their minor children in a court matter.

 

Elegantlion and Gretchen in NJ:

 

Ummm, Lolly has given quite a few people a certain impression of her by several of the things she has said, that are far from level-headed:

 

"I have never wanted to do someone bodily harm SO badly. The judge was a little &^%$#! "

 

"It just makes me so very, very angry. Today I am a bit calmer, I'm at the I'd really like to slit you from gullet to tail and leave you hanging alive for the birds to pick at your innards stage. Much calmer than yesterday."

 

These are just two I found quickly. I thought she said more, earlier, but some posts have been edited.

 

Also, she says this judge verbally abused her dd, but did not say how. Normally, one could take another person's word on it, but after the above, you should be able to see how other's might think she is hot-headed or emotionally unstable... not calm, mature, and level-headed!!!

 

Any editing was adding information, not deleting. Yes, I pretty much lost it on here. Quite honestly, I don't think I have ever been as angry as I was that first day. Never. I have been on this forum for around 10 years if not longer. To me, coming here is like posting to friends. Yes, it is an open forum, but it is also a fairly closed community most of the time. Many of us on here "know" each other fairly well.

 

How many times have people posted this--if you post here, be prepared to not have everyone bow down and kiss your feet!

The OP's daughter broke the law, the law reacted with a decision. End of story. What happened to "accountability"? When the OP declares it's just more proof of tyranny, end of freedom, etc, I can tell just where she's going. It's a BIG stretch tho.

My last remark--IMO, the driver needs to chill, toughen up a bit, and definitely not let mom keep dragging out the situation, because it will probably end up worse.

 

Easy to say when you were not there. Actually, if you go back I have never asked if the woman was out of line or not.

 

The question at hand is NOT whether my dd was at fault. It is not whether teens have more accidents. It is not even whether dd has to take a class or not. If you go back and read it all, you will find that I actually don't have a problem with any of that even if I do not necessarily agree with it. All accountability has been accepted and taken care of. Never was it not so. Responsibility was taken from minute one.

 

The true question is when you see someone who is abusing a position of power, what do you do? No matter what anyone here thinks, this woman is abusing her power. Not only is she verbally abusive to these kids which some of you seem to think is fine; she is misstating laws, making racist statements, and not allowing parents of a minor to have any input during a trial. I am not sure if the last one is illegal or not, but it sure seems like it should be. All this is easily provable by retrieval of information on said cassette which will be done after a certain birthday passes.

 

The funny thing is, I feel like this law was written the way it was to KEEP teens who have true accidents like dd's was from being further punished past the fine. I have a strong suspicion that the thought behind it was that a rational, level-headed official would pass these kids on with a "be more careful, driving is a serious responsibility" and more serious offenses would be given class-time and even more habitual offenders would have their license pulled. Instead, you have a woman on a power trip getting her jollies and getting kickbacks for the state from the class. (Haven't checked on that one, but did you know that judges in regular traffic court have $ going into their retirement fund for EVERY court cost they collect?)

 

So, when you see something happening that you KNOW with every fiber of your being is wrong, what do you do? Rationalize that it is for the person being harmed's good? Stay the heck out of it? Hope if just blows over because it isn't really your problem? Or, do you stand up to the person and try to stop them from doing further wrong? That is the question.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Lolly

[Lolly]

We may be coming to her defense, but you said that she was just angry and possibly exaggerating. You stated "I just can't imagine a whole courtroom of people sitting by letting a non-judge abuse a teenager". Perhaps that is why Lolly IS so upset, because exactly that happened. Honestly, I was staying out of it until I read that. This is a message board of many thousands of people and I don't expect you or anyone else to know them all. I also don't expect to make generalizations about a person's character by reading about one incident in their life. I was simply posting to defend her character and hopefully explain a little more of Lolly's personality.

 

In recent memory there have been several threads of incidents where posters have gotten emotional about an incident and have made angry remarks against neighbors, MILs, etc. I try not to define that poster by that one incident and what they say in it. It may be the one thing that absolutely has blown their top. I would hope if I have one of those incidents and my character is challenged that my friends would post in my defense.

 

I missed this one somehow! As El said, I am not prone to exaggeration. As far as a whole courtroom goes, that isn't how this is worked. It is just the one official, the parents, the minor, and a tape cassette. The minor and parents are not able to say or do anything to stop the official for fear of what she can do to them. She has the power to have someone come in and escort you to jail as well as take the minor's license.

[Dana]

 

 

The true question is when you see someone who is abusing a position of power, what do you do? No matter what anyone here thinks, this woman is abusing her power. Not only is she verbally abusive to these kids which some of you seem to think is fine; she is misstating laws, making racist statements, and not allowing parents of a minor to have any input during a trial. I am not sure if the last one is illegal or not, but it sure seems like it should be. All this is easily provable by retrieval of information on said cassette which will be done after a certain birthday passes.

 

 

 

What about checking with your state representatives? One of mine doesn't respond much but the other has been very available. They may have some ideas for what can be done - and you may be able to get more information about the laws.

 

Another possibility is to talk to a local (or state) newspaper or news station (although if you do have a paper, that could be better). If this is a pattern of behavior, they may be able to request the tape under a Freedom of Information Act - and if there is a pattern, they could draw attention to it.

[Gretchen in NJ]

What about checking with your state representatives? One of mine doesn't respond much but the other has been very available. They may have some ideas for what can be done - and you may be able to get more information about the laws.

 

Another possibility is to talk to a local (or state) newspaper or news station (although if you do have a paper, that could be better). If this is a pattern of behavior, they may be able to request the tape under a Freedom of Information Act - and if there is a pattern, they could draw attention to it.

 

:iagree: Great idea. They might be able to keep you daughter's name out of it too.

[rockermom]

Oh my, I wish I hadn't come back to this thread.

 

I don't know Lolly personally, but online I've never known her to be at all prone to exaggeration or attention seeking or flighty. To see her as worked up as in the initial post is something completely new to me. If Lolly says the judge's behaviour was unreasonable, I believe her.

 

:iagree: with nmoira. Lolly and I have moved in the same online circles for years and she's consistently very laid back.

 

Lolly asked for advice on how to go about filing a complaint. She wasn't asking if the judge was fair.

 

I can't believe some of the things I've read in this thread.

[elizabeth]

 

I do think that parents should be allowed to speak and assist their minor children in a court matter.

 

And I think parents or those acting in loco parentis, should know proper court procedures including that if you want to have an opportunity to speak to the judge, you hire an attorney. This person can speak for you with your concerns to the court or the attorney can simply ask if a witness may give testimony thus permitting the parent to give testimony in response to the attorneys questions. Speaking to the judge directly from the courtroom observer area or in the box is not proper, it is not done . There are proper procedures, they must be followed otherwise we would have anarchy in the courtroom. You now state that the person was not a judge but something else, an administrative law judge, a magistrate etc the same rules for proper procedure and evidence still apply . I am sorry and do not doubt she was unpleasant . Sometimes that is the way it goes. I am a lawyer, dh is a lawyer and sometimes we just have to deal. That is the country we live in , the law we agree to uphold and the best **** judicial system in the world. Be glad she was not hit by a drunk or uninsured motorist with damage to her person. This is so blown out of proportion. If this upset you so terribly I hope she never gets her heart broken by a friend, or disrespected by a male who is not a gentleman, or called an unsavory name or any of the other insults, disappointments, hurts and just unpleasant stuff that happens when you live a life out in the world. It is messy, disorienting and sometimes heartbreaking. That reality is very, very hard to see our children face and believe me I would gladly suffer it all to let dd not have to deal with it. But that is not reality. The best I can do is teach her the best way I know to cope with these pains and injustices with dignity , a sense of humor and an attitude of gratitude. Flame away as you must but I am trying to help.

[Guest]

 

...Any editing was adding information, not deleting. Yes, I pretty much lost it on here. Quite honestly, I don't think I have ever been as angry as I was that first day. Never. I have been on this forum for around 10 years if not longer. To me, coming here is like posting to friends. Yes, it is an open forum, but it is also a fairly closed community most of the time. Many of us on here "know" each other fairly well...

 

 

 

...So, when you see something happening that you KNOW with every fiber of your being is wrong, what do you do? Rationalize that it is for the person being harmed's good? Stay the heck out of it? Hope if just blows over because it isn't really your problem? Or, do you stand up to the person and try to stop them from doing further wrong? That is the question.

 

You know what, Lolly, I've lost it myself plenty of times... that I can understand.

 

As far as the issue at hand, I still haven't heard anything, specific, that this woman said that was verbally abusive. I truly believe, from what you have said, that she was just trying to scare your dd, and that sometimes doing this really can have a positive effect on a teenager. I encourage you to tell us something specific that she said... then you could get advice on whether it truly was an abuse of power. No one can argue that... it either is or it isn't.

 

I do know who to report a judge to in most states. It's the Commission on Judicial Performance. I don't know if you would report a commissioner the same way or not. I truly don't think there is any reason to report her though.

 

On a side note, I think a couple of you owe OpenMinded an apology. It was probably very difficult for her to post her experience on here... some of you made some cruel comments and should be ashamed. I'm not here to argue that, either.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Jinnah

[Guest]

 

I do think that parents should be allowed to speak and assist their minor children in a court matter.

 

And I think parents or those acting in loco parentis, should know proper court procedures including that if you want to have an opportunity to speak to the judge, you hire an attorney. This person can speak for you with your concerns to the court or the attorney can simply ask if a witness may give testimony thus permitting the parent to give testimony in response to the attorneys questions. Speaking to the judge directly from the courtroom observer area or in the box is not proper, it is not done . There are proper procedures, they must be followed otherwise we would have anarchy in the courtroom. You now state that the person was not a judge but something else, an administrative law judge, a magistrate etc the same rules for proper procedure and evidence still apply . I am sorry and do not doubt she was unpleasant . Sometimes that is the way it goes. I am a lawyer, dh is a lawyer and sometimes we just have to deal. That is the country we live in , the law we agree to uphold and the best **** judicial system in the world. Be glad she was not hit by a drunk or uninsured motorist with damage to her person. This is so blown out of proportion. If this upset you so terribly I hope she never gets her heart broken by a friend, or disrespected by a male who is not a gentleman, or called an unsavory name or any of the other insults, disappointments, hurts and just unpleasant stuff that happens when you live a life out in the world. It is messy, disorienting and sometimes heartbreaking. That reality is very, very hard to see our children face and believe me I would gladly suffer it all to let dd not have to deal with it. But that is not reality. The best I can do is teach her the best way I know to cope with these pains and injustices with dignity , a sense of humor and an attitude of gratitude. Flame away as you must but I am trying to help.

 

I agree... very well said, and wonderful points made!

 

I was also trying to help the situation, but apparently, it was not appreciated.

[Gretchen in NJ]

 

I do think that parents should be allowed to speak and assist their minor children in a court matter.

 

And I think parents or those acting in loco parentis, should know proper court procedures including that if you want to have an opportunity to speak to the judge, you hire an attorney. This person can speak for you with your concerns to the court or the attorney can simply ask if a witness may give testimony thus permitting the parent to give testimony in response to the attorneys questions. Speaking to the judge directly from the courtroom observer area or in the box is not proper, it is not done . There are proper procedures, they must be followed otherwise we would have anarchy in the courtroom. You now state that the person was not a judge but something else, an administrative law judge, a magistrate etc the same rules for proper procedure and evidence still apply . I am sorry and do not doubt she was unpleasant . Sometimes that is the way it goes. I am a lawyer, dh is a lawyer and sometimes we just have to deal. That is the country we live in , the law we agree to uphold and the best **** judicial system in the world. Be glad she was not hit by a drunk or uninsured motorist with damage to her person. This is so blown out of proportion. If this upset you so terribly I hope she never gets her heart broken by a friend, or disrespected by a male who is not a gentleman, or called an unsavory name or any of the other insults, disappointments, hurts and just unpleasant stuff that happens when you live a life out in the world. It is messy, disorienting and sometimes heartbreaking. That reality is very, very hard to see our children face and believe me I would gladly suffer it all to let dd not have to deal with it. But that is not reality. The best I can do is teach her the best way I know to cope with these pains and injustices with dignity , a sense of humor and an attitude of gratitude. Flame away as you must but I am trying to help.

I have a question. If you are an adult, you can represent youself. What if you are a minor? Can your parents represent you?