Atheist Content- lol: Combatting religious influences

[justamouse]

As I type this you've got to not the irony of what is sitting in the window in front of me. Two candles from the box that we used for Halloween and a Buddha statue are sitting on top of a book about the Easter bunny, a book of evolution, and a book of wisdom stories from around the world along with a carved dragon from the wizard shop. But my dd recognized a statue of Ganesh when we saw one last week in the oriental store, can tell you the five pillars of Islam, and knows what the Pentecost is. She bows her head when my brother says prayers at dinner out of respect for his beliefs, declines when invited to Awanas, would never serve meat to a Buddhist, believes that people cannot own the earth or its resources, believes it is wrong to eat a fertilized chicken egg because it is alive, and knows that she isn't the only the only atheist in the world.

 

That is just beautiful.

[MSNative]

I try to remind my daughter that I like to think that the concern that religious people show for atheists (well, concern that SOME show for atheists) is out of true compassion and that their belief system dictates that people who don't believe miss out on the good stuff: blessings/benevolence/immortality.

 

That's hard to remember when another homeschooling mom is IN MY FACE (literally, could feel her spittle upon my lip) asking me, "WHY AREN'T YOU A CHRISTIAN ANYMORE?"

 

At times like that it is difficult to remember the warm and fuzzy stuff I wrote in the first paragraph, but....just like not all christians are not like HER, not all atheists are in your face debaters like the Rude Atheist that most christians claim to have encountered.

QUOTE]

 

Ugh, I hate reading stories like that. As a Christian, they make me cringe. I'm sorry so many of you have had bad experiences like that. I've had the rude athiest experience(aw heck, fill in the blank. We've all had those rude whoever experiences) and you're right that though it's hard, we do have to remember that that person does not represent everyone who shares his/her beliefs. Although, the spittle does just make it that much harder. Ewww.

 

Back to the topic at hand, my kids respond well to biographies. Perhaps you could find some books on some famous athiests (or skeptics).

[Audrey]

My goal is not to raise atheists, but to raise skeptics. Individuals who can think for themselves and question everything.

 

 

:iagree: I'm not raising an atheist either. We pretty much keep it to a "this is what *I* believe" level, because dh and I do not have the same spiritual philosophy (close, but not the same).

 

There was a time when ds was around 6, he said "what if I want to be a Christian?" and I do admit that it made me feel so sick at heart, but I realized I had to tell him the truth -- that if that is what he truly believed, he should look into it further. As it turned out, he'd just been watching a whole bunch of Lego Bible stories, and he thought that was cool -- not so much the stories, but the Legos.

 

Over time, he's been exposed to many different walks of spirituality, and he does lean toward a Buddist philosophy (which is the faith of neither dh or me). I find that he's taught me a lot about it in our discussions of what he's read. I could definitely see him following that path. It seems to suit his innate personality.

 

Although it bugs the heck out of me, the fundy-evangelical exposure he's had has actually had an interesting effect. It's left a very negative impression of that faith for him. He is very questioning (skeptical?) of those kinds of people in his life, but I always pull him back from what I fear might be a reply that would get him ostracized. I don't know why I do that, because I would not hold my tongue when so hostilely confronted, so why should he have to do that? That's my own conundrum.

[secular_mom]

I always pull him back from what I fear might be a reply that would get him ostracized. I don't know why I do that, because I would not hold my tongue when so hostilely confronted, so why should he have to do that? That's my own conundrum.

 

YES! Why do we do that?

[Audrey]

YES! Why do we do that?

 

I don't know?? Maybe our experiences have conditioned us that way?? "Those kinds" of people don't seem to have a problem with being so outspoken and offensive, so why is it that we feel we have to hide what we think and feel?? I really don't want to pass that sense of having to hide and "be the polite one" all the time to my son. I know that has set me up for attacks, and I don't want set him up for them either. He should be able to stand up for himself, even if it does mean telling someone who insists there is only one true god that there are no gods at all. But, every time I see it start to go in that direction, I pull him back. I really should stop doing that, shouldn't I? :glare:

[Cindyz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Audrey

I always pull him back from what I fear might be a reply that would get him ostracized. I don't know why I do that, because I would not hold my tongue when so hostilely confronted, so why should he have to do that? That's my own conundrum.

 

YES! Why do we do that?

I do not wish to upset anyone but I believe the reason we do this is because we are aware that many religious people may make the decision to not have anything more to do with our child if they do so. This thread has brought me to a conclusion that there IS a difference between the way that many religious families and atheist families instruct their children in this matter. Many religious families teach their children to believe as they do. The idea that there is only one right belief and it is ours, etc. While many atheist/alternative belief families are looking more for their children to be free thinkers and question and observe and to come to their own conclusions.

 

I do let my kids know that it's inappropriate to challenge someone else's beliefs (no win situation, waste of time!) even when directed at my kids, BUT that when judged it's totally appropriate for them to assert that they don't share the person's beliefs and don't wish to hear any more directed towards them. I've encouraged them to dialogue with people of different faith cultures when the situation was non-confrontational, both in words and by example.

This is exactly what I hope to instill in my child.

 

I've been looking toward the Unitarian Universalist Church in the area and wondering if their religious education classes would be a good fit for our family. It appears to offer instruction on all different religions and gives the children practice with learning to behave as the above quote describes.

 

Is anyone here a member of a UU church? When I read their websites, I'm nodding in agreement and ready to go. My husband who is atheist is a little more skeptical about going to church and I'm still in the convincing stage with him. He's just worried that it's a veiled Christian indoctrination and I really believe that it's not.

[secular_mom]

I really should stop doing that, shouldn't I? :glare:

 

I don't know. :tongue_smilie:

I don't want my children to think that their feelings are more important than the feelings of others, but I don't want them to think that the feelings of others are more important either, KWIM?

 

I'm thinking that maybe I need to figure out a phrase/one liner to teach my dc to use in response to such situations. Something that conveys their disagreement, discomfort and frustration without going 'too far'. I still want my dc to come out 'on top' as the more reasonable participant (bigger person) in such situations :D but they need to be armed with a tool to 'draw the line'. Or maybe I just need to get some t-shirts printed for us all to wear in public that say something like, "I'm an atheist. DEAL with it!" ;)

[Cindyz]

Also, many of the books in this thread especially the Parenting Beyond Belief and Raising Free Thinkers (which I have not read yet as I'm waiting for it from the library), will equip you with ideas of how to teach your child to handle these situations.

[secular_mom]

Yes, maybe there's a 'canned response' in one of the books, lol.

[Daisy]

I don't know?? Maybe our experiences have conditioned us that way?? "Those kinds" of people don't seem to have a problem with being so outspoken and offensive, so why is it that we feel we have to hide what we think and feel?? I really don't want to pass that sense of having to hide and "be the polite one" all the time to my son. I know that has set me up for attacks, and I don't want set him up for them either. He should be able to stand up for himself, even if it does mean telling someone who insists there is only one true god that there are no gods at all. But, every time I see it start to go in that direction, I pull him back. I really should stop doing that, shouldn't I? :glare:

 

Perhaps you just pull him back because you want to teach him politeness? I mean, I understand your negative experiences with Christians, but I would certainty pull my child back and expect them to be polite to your son. Perhaps there are just those of us out in the world who still believe in manners.

 

I don't think your child or mine should have to hide who they are or what they believe, but I bet we'd both expect them to be polite and well-mannered on the playground. I've told this to many of my secular friends. I'm sorry they've experienced so much rudeness. You and your child is every bit as deserving of respect as my child is.

 

I've taught my children that people will believe very differently then they do. They should always respond with graciousness and respect without compromising on what they believe to be true. They say, "Okay mommy," and run across the street and play with the agnostic's children.

 

Only one time have I had to reign my kids in and that was over Awanas. They wanted the neighbor boy to go with them so bad. Not because they thought they'd convert him but because they have fun and wanted him to have fun, too. I had to explain that when he says, "No, thanks," he means it because of what his family believes and not because he wants you to convince him of how much fun it is.

(And I realize it may be annoying to have a Christian respond to your obviously secular thread. My apologies.).

Edited May 23, 2010 by Daisy

[HRAAB]

And then this whole issues gets very tricky when both parents started off on the same page, but over 25 years one parent has not only moved off the page but is in an entirely different book. We seem to have reached somewhat of a balance where each of our differing beliefs receive respect. Thankfully my dh is not a 'my way is the only way' type of believer nor am I. I still attend church with my family and am seeing that my children are raised in that faith, however, I will not pretend to be something I'm not. I did that for quite a few years, and it was devastating, not only to me personally but to our marriage. There are a few times when I feel like I'm the one compromising my beliefs, but when we started this family, we were both agreed our children would be raised Christian, and since I'm the one that has changed, I try my best to remain faithful to that promise.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Ishki

[elfgivas]

we found the film "judgement day" to be a great discussion starter.

here's a link http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-404729062613200911#

 

it is about evolution and intelligent design, but it does a great job of listening to a woman whose father was a fundamentalist talk about how that impacted his thinking....

 

sam harris is great; both our 10 and 11 year old are fascinated. he studied philosophy, religion and the neuroscience and does a great job of talking about beliefs and why it is not okay to believe anything we want... in a very accessible fashion. here's a good starting point for him

 

 

and "inherit the wind" is the movie about the scopes monkey trial that again opens up a lot of religious discussion.

 

unlike someone else's suggestion, we don't treat atheism as any other belief.... we look at individual parts of the fundamentalist belief (the age of the earth, for example) and then look at the science. (editing to add: this is because we don't want our kids to just blindly believe anything.... we want them to learn how to think for themselves, evaluate what they're hearing, reading, thinking.... and develop a set of skills that will help them navigate this wonderful world)

 

we also did media awareness and critical thinking as a piece to the puzzle. and discussions about false dichotomies. (it is possible to believe in a Christian God and evolution without dissonance; Ken Miller has some good discussion on this.

 

and then we breathe deeply, and mostly don't talk back to folks here in our little bible belt.... but there are times when we've decided that it is not okay to stay silent, and so we take a deep breath and walk boldly in where angels fear to tread.

 

good luck,

ann

[Audrey]

(And I realize it may be annoying to have a Christian respond to your obviously secular thread. My apologies.).

 

 

Not annoying from you, Daisy. Obviously, you and and your children are respectful of others. It's nice to hear that there are people out there like you. It's also a good reminder for those times when it feels like there isn't.

[ImAhomeSCHOOLmama]

Regarding negative influences, so far we've had very few incidents with other faiths, we teach tolerance, but we do NOT and will NEVER teach "tolerance of the intolerance" and teach them to remain passive when they notice intolerance and hatred camouflaged in a religion.

 

By your own statement you teach intolerance. Saying that you will never teach tolerance of intolerance you are actually teaching intolerance. Because you cant be tolerant and intolerant at the same time. So to say that tolerance of intolerance is not to be tolerated you are actually being intolerant not tolerant. Your whole statement is self defeating.;)

[Melinda in VT]

Is anyone here a member of a UU church? When I read their websites, I'm nodding in agreement and ready to go. My husband who is atheist is a little more skeptical about going to church and I'm still in the convincing stage with him. He's just worried that it's a veiled Christian indoctrination and I really believe that it's not.

 

Not the UU church we used to attend. Our head of children's Religious Education was an atheist, and our minister was raised UU with Jewish cultural background and atheist leanings. Many in the congregation were atheists or agnostics.

 

(We loved it there, and only quit attending when we moved out of state, although I alternated Sundays with a Christian denomination.)

[Just Robyn]

Is anyone here a member of a UU church? When I read their websites, I'm nodding in agreement and ready to go. My husband who is atheist is a little more skeptical about going to church and I'm still in the convincing stage with him. He's just worried that it's a veiled Christian indoctrination and I really believe that it's not.

 

I am not currently a member of a UU church, but I have talked to a few people who are or have been members of a few different UU churches and it seems to just depend on the church. Supposedly the one in my area is pretty new agey, but others are more Christian (though not likely fundie). One church in our area that I went to once which I think is UU (a different one that the aforementioned) has a bookstore in which they sell books on crystal healing and that sort of thing. They also often have classes on A Course in Miracles.

 

I don't know. :tongue_smilie:

I don't want my children to think that their feelings are more important than the feelings of others, but I don't want them to think that the feelings of others are more important either, KWIM?

 

I'm thinking that maybe I need to figure out a phrase/one liner to teach my dc to use in response to such situations. Something that conveys their disagreement, discomfort and frustration without going 'too far'. I still want my dc to come out 'on top' as the more reasonable participant (bigger person) in such situations :D but they need to be armed with a tool to 'draw the line'. Or maybe I just need to get some t-shirts printed for us all to wear in public that say something like, "I'm an atheist. DEAL with it!" ;)

 

I love this atheist shirt. :001_smile:

[ereks mom]

I would approach it the same way we Christians approach these things.

 

Making clear what we believe and our family values all the time while I'm teaching them helps them to see the differences for themselves. When they are confused, they ask.

 

I don't try to turn everything into a lesson on "We belive this, they believe that, this is the difference..." I really do want kids who think for themselves and can form their own opinion on religious matters without my influence. At some point they're going to have to do that, right?

 

When I see an absolutely confusing situation, be it in a conversation with someone, or a life-situation with someone, and I see that they are trying to process it all, I ask them if they want to talk. If they say yes, I let them lead the conversation. If they say no, as hard as that is for me, I let it go.

 

All this to say, that honestly, most of their confusion has come from Christians who don't live up to what they say they believe rather than from athiests (eventhough we get plenty of exposure to them). I'll bet it's the same for your dc. They see inconsistencies in the walk of people who are supposed to believe as they do and it gets a tad confusing.

 

ETA: I don't want to indoctrinate my dc. I want them to have a PERSONAL relationship with God. When they choose how that will look for them, then, and only then, will it be hard for anyone to sway them from their beliefs. I would assume that's the same with athiests.

 

:iagree:

[Blessedfamily]

I have noticed a certain behaviour where I live. People are non-aggressive, both Christians and non-Christians. Sometimes one or the other will fall silent when the conversation turns to matters of religion or non-religion. It's all very polite and .....southern.

 

And then they drive off in cars covered in bumper stickers that say exactly what they wanted to say but didn't. I mean, bumper stickers are in every town, but I've never seen this much where I've lived before.

 

I'm not at all against free speech. To each his/her own. It's just an observation that people will say nothing directly, but do their talking from the bumpers of their cars. (Not just bumper stickers stating who they are, but addressing other groups of people in a very inflammatory way.)

Edited May 23, 2010 by Blessedfamily

[Ester Maria]

By your own statement you teach intolerance. Saying that you will never teach tolerance of intolerance you are actually teaching intolerance. Because you cant be tolerant and intolerant at the same time. So to say that tolerance of intolerance is not to be tolerated you are actually being intolerant not tolerant. Your whole statement is self defeating.;)

A tricky thing about tolerance - it cannot be absolute without destroying you. Unless you're an extremist of the "love thy enemy" and "turn the other cheek" kind of person, you probably behave that way too. Other than those scenarios - in which you're actually putting yourself in a big danger and working quite against you not counting with the fact that there will be intolerant peole - tolerance has to come with that exception, not tolerating those who don't tolerate.

 

Consider it this way, you probably believe in the concept of personal freedom. But do you agree with the freedom of the person who puts other people's freedom and safety in danger? You'd probably like those behind the bars. It comes down to the old cliche of one person's freedom ending where the other person's freedom begins.

It doesn't mean that the whole concept of freedom as we know it is flawed (unless you go with some extreme schools of thought in both biology and politics which DO indeed think that way... but let's stay out of those discussions), it means that our concept of freedom is not absolute freedom. Same with my tolerance - it's not absolute tolerance, because if it were, it would destroy me.

 

Simply put, I'm okay with you being different, as long as the part of your-being-different isn't an attempt to destroy me or others who are not like you. If that's the case, we cannot normally coexist in peace - no grounds for tolerance in that case.

 

I better stop here because if I start elaborating on those concepts more, it'll go wrong again. Gotta keep a low profile regarding some stuff. :D

[hillfarm]

Regarding those who call themselves Christians but who are rude or hurtful to people of other beliefs, the Bible says,"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." 1 Cornithians 13:1

 

They resemble the meat-eating Hindu, the alcoholic Muslim, or the Jewish woman with a beloved pigskin purse. In other words, someone who is failing to meet up to the entire standard of their belief system. Of course, none of us is perfect and we all fall short in some aspect or other. But please be assured that a so called Christian who treats others poorly is NOT a good reflection of their stated religion.

 

We are evangelical Christians and strive to be kind and polite to everyone regardless of their religious, economic, or social status. We are teaching our dd to focus on what our denomination calls lifestyle witness--IOW, to live her life as an example of her faith and to let that be her testament. If others ask us about our beliefs, we are glad to share, but we see little value in harrassing other people regarding theirs. The fact is that many more people asked about our beliefs when we were washing the dozens of loads of flood water soaked laundry of the area college students who were displaced by a local disaster than have ever asked when we were carry Bibles on our way into church.

Edited May 24, 2010 by hillfarm

[redheadeddaughter]

One of my best "girl" friends is an athiest. I'm the daughter of a hard core Christian minister, and hold my own Christian beliefs very dear and close. We are so different. She is kind. I try to be. We raise our children differently (apart from the religious aspects). She is very permissive and I am the super strict mommy. But she is there for me. Shares with me and just accepts who I am, who my kids are. Incredibly open and loving as a person.

 

Even so, I'm ashamed to admit I have had many thoughts about "shielding" my children from the influence of her family. My own mother is quite worried about the friendship (especially for my oldest). I don't let my kids stay over at her place to play unless I am present, although she has offered generously many times to watch them, and asks me to help out also. My husband has strong feelings on this even if I didn't. (We don't know her husband well, although he seems like a nice guy... the "not knowing" part is why he objects). I felt, and still feel, that I have good reasons for this. My children act differently, more wild, less obedient, after spending time with them. My friend requires less of her kids and they are less respectful of property, for instance. She probably thinks I require too much, and stifle their creativity! :)

 

But, (big BUT), after reading this thread, I realized she may well be struggling with the same concerns, but going the other way. My children freely talk about the Bible, Awana, memory or poems that are religious in content, church events, etc. Does this bother her? Does this worry her? Does she think I can (or would want to) muzzle my children? Is she thinking her children will be more interested in religion b/c our family is so, well, religious? Can I admit I would love it if that happened?

 

Now, I'm not one of those women that go around saying "praise the Lord" and "I am so grateful to God for..." and "Lord willing..." all the time. I do speak this way with fellow church goers. Which is silly. It's kind of like a code for, "I am a gracious, loving Christian who seeks peace with everyone." The church, and the Christians in it are certainly flawed, as we all are. But even though I refrain from speaking this way around her, does she still sense us trying to sway her beliefs? I guess I think about it often. I want to ask her to come to church with me... it's a big part of my life, this God thing. :)

 

We are a strange pairing, that's for sure. But this thread has given me a little more insight into where she might be coming from. I never, in a million years, thought she would be trying to protect her family from the influences of someone like me. My strict mommy ways are likely way too structured for her waldorfy, eccentric ap family. But she remains my friend, and is continuously generous with her heart and her time. And now I am just that much more grateful for her. And her tolerant ways. :)

 

The humbled mom.

[secular_mom]

Regarding those who call themselves Christians but who are rude or hurtful to people of other beliefs, the Bible says,"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." 1 Cornithians 13:1

 

They resemble the meat-eating Hindu, the alcoholic Muslim, or the Jewish woman with a beloved pigskin purse. In other words, someone who is failing to meet up to the entire standard of their belief system. Of course, none of us is perfect and we all fall short in some aspect or other. But please be assured that a so called Christian who treats others poorly is NOT a good reflection of their stated religion.

 

 

 

I really don't mean to be rude, and I'm trying really hard to find the 'right' words to say here. Hearing people say things about other people who share the same/similar faith such as 'so called Christian' or 'so called Muslim' does not really shine any sort of positive light on the faith- at least not for me.

 

It really doesn't matter to me, whether someone follows (the rules of) another person's version of their faith or not. They ARE mistreating people in the name of X, and In Their Opinion they are behaving in accordance with their faith. No, every member of that faith does not behave that way, but it seems to be a good representation of THAT person's faith. KWIM?

[Carrie12345]

Even so, I'm ashamed to admit I have had many thoughts about "shielding" my children from the influence of her family. My own mother is quite worried about the friendship (especially for my oldest). I don't let my kids stay over at her place to play unless I am present, although she has offered generously many times to watch them, and asks me to help out also. My husband has strong feelings on this even if I didn't. (We don't know her husband well, although he seems like a nice guy... the "not knowing" part is why he objects). I felt, and still feel, that I have good reasons for this. My children act differently, more wild, less obedient, after spending time with them. My friend requires less of her kids and they are less respectful of property, for instance. She probably thinks I require too much, and stifle their creativity! :)

 

But, (big BUT), after reading this thread, I realized she may well be struggling with the same concerns, but going the other way. My children freely talk about the Bible, Awana, memory or poems that are religious in content, church events, etc. Does this bother her? Does this worry her? Does she think I can (or would want to) muzzle my children? Is she thinking her children will be more interested in religion b/c our family is so, well, religious? Can I admit I would love it if that happened?

 

<snip>

 

We are a strange pairing, that's for sure. But this thread has given me a little more insight into where she might be coming from. I never, in a million years, thought she would be trying to protect her family from the influences of someone like me. My strict mommy ways are likely way too structured for her waldorfy, eccentric ap family. But she remains my friend, and is continuously generous with her heart and her time. And now I am just that much more grateful for her. And her tolerant ways. :)

 

The humbled mom.

 

What I'm reading is that you don't want your kids to pick up her kids' brattiness. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way!!!

 

But then you compare it to the possibility that she may not want your religion to rub off on her kids. That's an entirely different idea, unless you're under the impression that her atheism is what is causing her kids' obnoxious behavior... which is something I would take issue with.

 

There are plenty of kids I don't want my kids around. I just consider those kids (and/or parents) brats. I don't know or care to know what their religious views are b/c it's irrelevant.

[secular_mom]

Yes, this sounds like a clash of parenting styles, maybe. Your friend might not be offended at all by you asking her if she'd like to attend church with you. Really, I have no idea how she'd feel about that or about your family having an influence on hers. CA is REALLY a totally different atmosphere AFA religion is concerned, at least IME it is. You can seek out people who are like-minded, but most people there don't seem to make the assumption that you believe what they believe, KWIM? Here in the Bible Belt it's a totally different matter. People make awful 'jokes' and comments assuming I share their thoughts. People are just plain rude here at times, not EVERYone, but LOTS of people. It's just harder here. I would have a really hard time trusting someone raised here, in this environment who is a religious person to NOT try to influence my children. On one hand, I understand that Christian people care about us and want us to have the 'good stuff' that they do. OTOH, it is very offensive for them to try to undermine MY parenting and MY boundaries about what my children are exposed to. I really don't want my young children being told that they are sinners or that they will go to hell if they don't hold the same beliefs as someone else. I really don't want my young children thinking they need to be forgiven for being human, that they are defective somehow. That is MY choice. I do not wish to shield them from others' beliefs forever, but I sure do not want them steeped in such dogma at this time. I plan to discuss things more in depth with them when the time is right for them as individuals, and no other person in the world- no matter how well meaning, has the right to intercede.

I understand a Christian hoping that their friend will become Christian. I don't understand people developing/maintaining a friendship for the sake of hopefully converting them. That would be offensive.

[amsunshine]

Yes, maybe there's a 'canned response' in one of the books, lol.

 

I see this as basically an issue of boundaries -- maintaining one's own while respecting another's. The point is not to defend one's own beliefs and not to attack another's -- doing either of these just provokes destructive emotions within both participants in the conversation. It's kind of like "passing the bean dip". I've been thinking a lot about what a child's version of "You are entitled to your opinion" would sound like, but haven't come up with anything really good yet. The closest I've come is "That's nice" and changing the subject.

 

I'd personally love to hear any other suggestions in this regard. :)

[Crimson Wife]

CA is REALLY a totally different atmosphere AFA religion is concerned, at least IME it is. You can seek out people who are like-minded, but most people there don't seem to make the assumption that you believe what they believe, KWIM? Here in the Bible Belt it's a totally different matter. People make awful 'jokes' and comments assuming I share their thoughts. People are just plain rude here at times, not EVERYone, but LOTS of people. It's just harder here.

 

Actually, you'd be surprised at how often those of us who are religiously devout feel the exact same way about CA. If I had a nickel for all the snarky comments I've heard about religion in the four years we've lived in the S.F. Bay Area I could probably afford to take the whole family on a weeklong Disneyland vacation. :mad:

 

Anytime where there's a majority of one type of worldview, people's ugliness seems to emerge...

[kalanamak]

The humbled mom.

 

My only worry, as that mom, is that one of your children would go through a phase of carrying on about religion (some young teens do this) and it would cause a rift to develop, or that your child would hear someone (not you) say she should not hang out with your kids to not have their non-belief rub off on them, and my child would be hurt by the snub.

 

That would be my fear, not that the religion would "rub off on" my kids. As I said above, I was raised in the bible belt by non-believing parents and it has never crossed my mind to believe. I was around a lot of religious people. (And then I went to a religious med school, still didn't rub off!:))

[kalanamak]

 

Anytime where there's a majority of one type of worldview, people's ugliness seems to emerge...

 

I just long for the time when people has more manners than that. I don't remember any snark one way of the other when I was growing up. Maybe at home behind closed doors, but not to the face.

[secular_mom]

Actually, you'd be surprised at how often those of us who are religiously devout feel the exact same way about CA. If I had a nickel for all the snarky comments I've heard about religion in the four years we've lived in the S.F. Bay Area I could probably afford to take the whole family on a weeklong Disneyland vacation. :mad:

 

Anytime where there's a majority of one type of worldview, people's ugliness seems to emerge...

 

I have experienced that too, I do try to avoid people who behave that way. Like the atheist lady who was practically bragging that her 10yod was very loudly disrespectful toward a religion while touring their church. It is embarrassing. People do seem to feel 'safe' and 'let their hair down' (rather, show their true colors) when there are like-minded people near.

It is a rotten experience, no matter the offender or the offend-ed's POV.

[mommyrooch]

Ah, but that has little to do with her faith and more to do with her poor personality.

 

Gandhi said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." While it certainly doesn't apply to all Christians, and likely not even most, it does refer to what some people through their own flawed character do with the faith itself. And it applies to everyone - whether of faith, or faithless.

 

I hear you though. When I encounter people like that, I think of the above quote.

 

:iagree: It is these kinds of people (poor character) that I would consider toxic...

 

BTW. I absolutely love this quote. I am copying it to use as my own personal mantra. I am faced with these kinds of people on an everyday basis and this sums up exactly how I feel when faced with them.

[mommyrooch]

 

Regarding negative influences, so far we've had very few incidents with other faiths, we teach tolerance, but we do NOT and will NEVER teach "tolerance of the intolerance" and teach them to remain passive when they notice intolerance and hatred camouflaged in a religion.

 

:iagree: :hurray: :iagree:

 

This is exactly how I feel!!

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

:iagree: It is these kinds of people (poor character) that I would consider toxic...

 

BTW. I absolutely love this quote. I am copying it to use as my own personal mantra. I am faced with these kinds of people on an everyday basis and this sums up exactly how I feel when faced with them.

 

Be careful. I once had that Gandhi quote in my siggy line and got some very trollish remarks/PM's.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Re: the poster who said that she has had 'so many atheists' making comments in CA....

 

I am guessing that when the non-dominant group has dealt with YEARS AND YEARS of insults and denigration, after awhile they start to fight back.

 

It is NOT right, but I wonder if that is what happens.

 

Few things infuriate me more than hearing a xian say, "we are soooo persecuted in America". Pu-lease! To that I would say, "try being an atheist in the freakin' buckle of the bible belt."

 

It is absolutely unreal how much xianity is just the default and anything 'other than' is DIFFERENT and to be viewed with great suspicion.

 

It gets old REALLY fast.

[mommyrooch]

Be careful. I once had that Gandhi quote in my siggy line and got some very trollish remarks/PM's.

 

Thanks for the advice. ;)

[mommyrooch]

Re: the poster who said that she has had 'so many atheists' making comments in CA....

 

I am guessing that when the non-dominant group has dealt with YEARS AND YEARS of insults and denigration, after awhile they start to fight back.

 

It is NOT right, but I wonder if that is what happens.

 

Few things infuriate me more than hearing a xian say, "we are soooo persecuted in America". Pu-lease! To that I would say, "try being an atheist in the freakin' buckle of the bible belt."

 

It is absolutely unreal how much xianity is just the default and anything 'other than' is DIFFERENT and to be viewed with great suspicion.

 

It gets old REALLY fast.

 

Oooh, I can only imagine your frustration.

 

I am a Christian in the buckle of the Bible belt and I absolutely, completely feel condemned and judged here. Dh and I are considered very liberal here. For example, we voted for Obama and are OEC. Definitely not popular choices among the homeschool population around here! And this is just icing on the cake. Our views are different from I would dare say 90+% of the home school population here. We do NOT fit in here.

 

Most homeschoolers we know around here are deliberately exclusive. Especially within the context of support groups. You are not allowed to just be Christian. You must be the "right kind" of Christian.

 

:grouphug: ThatCyndiGirl. I can imagine how you must feel because Dh and I feel much the same way. Don't feel bad though. At least they're consistent. Most homeschoolers I have met around here even go to great lengths to exclude fellow Christians if they don't believe just the right way. They are terrible about trying to force their beliefs on everyone else and if you don't comply then you are judged and excluded.

 

At least this has been our experience with those we have gotten to know.

[hillfarm]

I really don't mean to be rude, and I'm trying really hard to find the 'right' words to say here. Hearing people say things about other people who share the same/similar faith such as 'so called Christian' or 'so called Muslim' does not really shine any sort of positive light on the faith- at least not for me.

 

It really doesn't matter to me, whether someone follows (the rules of) another person's version of their faith or not. They ARE mistreating people in the name of X, and In Their Opinion they are behaving in accordance with their faith. No, every member of that faith does not behave that way, but it seems to be a good representation of THAT person's faith. KWIM?

 

I may be particularly dense tonight, but no, I don't KWYM:confused:. My point was that there are members of all religious groups that do things that are actually out of line with their religion's standards. And based on that, I wanted to point out that Christians are instructed in the Bible to not go around yelling at others, that we are told that if we speak without love, then we are no more than a clanging gong--a painful irritation.

 

Certainly, there is little excuse for such aggressive and hurtful behavior, other than the fact that we are all humans and we all make mistakes. But IMO, it should be viewed as more of a reflection on the individual exhibiting the behavior and not as an indictment of the entire religion or all others who are adherents.

 

The fact is that I consider myself as a pretty hard core evangelistic Christian, but have had other people who also claim to be Christians criticize me because I am not dresses-only, or don't wear a head covering, or love to dance, or observe any number of other social conventions differently than they do. Believe me, I too have heard some of those clanging gongs. And sadly, I am not always the most fabulous representative of Christ myself, I get cranky and speak in anger, or allow worry to crowd out faith, or become prideful and take too much upon myself. We Christians know better than anyone else that the term Christian is not synonymous with Perfect.

 

My intention in my first post was to provide information that perhaps some non-Christians might not be aware of, that we are supposed to speak in love only. And perhaps you could point out to your dc that anyone who spoke to them in an unloving manner was not really a very good embodiment of Christian Scripture.

[Audrey]

At least they're consistent. Most homeschoolers I have met around here even go to great lengths to exclude fellow Christians if they don't believe just the right way. They are terrible about trying to force their beliefs on everyone else and if you don't comply then you are judged and excluded.

 

At least this has been our experience with those we have gotten to know.

 

IKWYM. As rotten as I've been treated by xians, I've never experienced the depth of disdain that many xians seem to hurl at fellow xians. It gets downright vitriolic. I've seen it ad nauseum on this forum alone.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I may be particularly dense tonight, but no, I don't KWYM:confused:. My point was that there are members of all religious groups that do things that are actually out of line with their religion's standards. And based on that, I wanted to point out that Christians are instructed in the Bible to not go around yelling at others, that we are told that if we speak without love, then we are no more than a clanging gong--a painful irritation.

 

Certainly, there is little excuse for such aggressive and hurtful behavior, other than the fact that we are all humans and we all make mistakes. But IMO, it should be viewed as more of a reflection on the individual exhibiting the behavior and not as an indictment of the entire religion or all others who are adherents.

 

The fact is that I consider myself as a pretty hard core evangelistic Christian, but have had other people who also claim to be Christians criticize me because I am not dresses-only, or don't wear a head covering, or love to dance, or observe any number of other social conventions differently than they do. Believe me, I too have heard some of those clanging gongs. And sadly, I am not always the most fabulous representative of Christ myself, I get cranky and speak in anger, or allow worry to crowd out faith, or become prideful and take too much upon myself. We Christians know better than anyone else that the term Christian is not synonymous with Perfect.

 

My intention in my first post was to provide information that perhaps some non-Christians might not be aware of, that we are supposed to speak in love only. And perhaps you could point out to your dc that anyone who spoke to them in an unloving manner was not really a very good embodiment of Christian Scripture.

 

I get what you mean. I would like to say though, that in the US I doubt there are even a handful of people of any mindset (atheist, pagan, whatever) who are not familiar with most of the tenants of Christianity. Sometimes a sincere attempt to educate, coming from the mistaken viewpoint that if someone is not a Christian, they must be ignorant of the faith can come across as patronizing at best.

[Blessedfamily]

Be careful. I once had that Gandhi quote in my siggy line and got some very trollish remarks/PM's.

 

I don't see the violation of board rules in that remark. And I detest the practice of pm'ing to "chastise" someone who didn't ask for the sender's opinion.

[mommyrooch]

IKWYM. As rotten as I've been treated by xians, I've never experienced the depth of disdain that many xians seem to hurl at fellow xians. It gets downright vitriolic. I've seen it ad nauseum on this forum alone.

 

Yep. around here it is almost like they go out of their way to aggressively attact you if your Christian views don't line up with theirs. I don't know if my views threaten them or if they feel an exagerated need to correct me since I am Christian in hopes of converting me but it certainly is laid on very thick for us.

 

The depths of the disdain and the judgments go deap. Most do not hesitate to tell me how wrong and confused I am and that I really need to get myself right with God. :001_huh:

 

In our hearts we ARE right with God. I have a very close relationship with him. In fact, I dare say that my actions towards others are MUCH more Christlike than a lot of other Christians I encounter in my everday life.

 

I have accepted it for what it is though. Par for the course for being "different" and having "different" views. That concept is very much frowned upon here where I am from. It does make it really hard on us though (my kids especially) because we often times are made to feel very isolated from others because of the deliberate exclusions and verbal attacks.

 

BTW.. I don't think it is this bad everywhere. At least I hope it isn't. I do think that these kinds of things can be better or worse depending on where you live.

 

Also, I have met some amazing Christians. Not all are like the ones I have described. Those that I described however are in the majority around here.

[secular_mom]

My intention in my first post was to provide information that perhaps some non-Christians might not be aware of, that we are supposed to speak in love only. And perhaps you could point out to your dc that anyone who spoke to them in an unloving manner was not really a very good embodiment of Christian Scripture.

 

 

Hmmmmm. Again, I'm trying very hard not to sound rude/harsh/etc.

You can't speak for or against another person's faith, even if you wear the same label. IMO, each person owns their individual faith and that individual's behavior for the most part IS a reflection of their 'beliefs'. Many people say that being Christian does not mean they are perfect, just forgiven. Sometimes that seems to be 'reason' enough for someone to treat someone poorly and not feel guilty about it. Also the verse that says people will become easily offended, that seems to give others (some) a license to offend. I wish those people would focus more on the stumbling block and plank in your eye verses instead. ;)

BUT, IMO, if someone claims to be a Christian, then they ARE a Christian, whether their behavior meets the 'standards' of other Christians or not.

[Orthodox6]

I would like some ideas on how to combat the influence religion has on my children when they've been exposed to fundamentalist ideas via friends and family. I don't want to shelter my children from others and their beliefs, at least not completely. I have a hard time though, explaining why their friends and extended family behave the way they do and believe the things they do. These influences have NOT been positive, but I'd really rather avoid getting specific as I do NOT want to ruffle feathers.

 

I think I'll leave it at that, I'm too afraid of saying something offensive and that is NOT my intent. I wish there was a large and active secular/atheist message board for homeschoolers, LOL. (if anyone knows of one, feel free to send me a link)

 

I'd appreciate any input- advice, commiseration, book rec's, links and anything else. Thanks for reading.

 

Gin (who hopes she gets some helpful input and hopes she is not starting a flame war by asking for support)

 

Light-years away from being an atheist; however, many Christians share your same problem of raising a family when surrounded by fundamentalist culture. As others have posted, the same practices of patience and good manners are required for all of us, no matter what our religion.

 

At home we teach that other beliefs are wrong. That is what parents should do within the private family circle. I certainly expect an atheist to be firm with her own children, within her own home, when teaching what she believes to be true.

 

When interacting with other people from other religious (or non-religious) backgrounds, the tenets of ones own faith for how to live in the world govern behaviour. So whereas I may be hurt by, and may pity members of a Christian sect who treat me like dirt (and I don't keep track of how often this happens), I recognize that they are "living their faith" as it is taught them. Oddly, they don't seem to understand how such behaviour destroys all possibility of them converting me to their way of thinking !

 

Our children are taught to take people as they are, where they are. Change for anybody is voluntary, and usually comes slowly. We do not attempt to force our beliefs on anybody else, and that also is a core practice of our Orthodox faith. We try to make Christ available, if someone freely wishes to listen, which is 100% different from clobbering people over the head with Him. We respect free will absolutely, and do not proselytize other Christian groups. My personal interior wrath rages whenever I read about Christian groups going to Russia, to Greece, or to Eastern Europe to convert the people -- who already are Christian ! (It is a disgraceful practice.)

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I don't see the violation of board rules in that remark. And I detest the practice of pm'ing to "chastise" someone who didn't ask for the sender's opinion.

 

It was never an issue of board rules. Just rudeness (IMO) directed toward me by those who were very offended by the quote. I even had some very rude remarks posted about me publicly, with sugary-sweet apologies PM'd by the same poster. Ugh. That is the reason I now have the PM function turned off. And, I refrain (mostly) from revealing my true thoughts/feelings. So in a way, they've won. Yay them.

[Laurie4b]

Yep. around here it is almost like they go out of their way to aggressively attact you if your Christian views don't line up with theirs. I don't know if my views threaten them or if they feel an exagerated need to correct me since I am Christian in hopes of converting me but it certainly is laid on very thick for us.

 

The depths of the disdain and the judgments go deap. Most do not hesitate to tell me how wrong and confused I am and that I really need to get myself right with God. :001_huh:

 

In our hearts we ARE right with God. I have a very close relationship with him. In fact, I dare say that my actions towards others are MUCH more Christlike than a lot of other Christians I encounter in my everday life.

 

I have accepted it for what it is though. Par for the course for being "different" and having "different" views. That concept is very much frowned upon here where I am from. It does make it really hard on us though (my kids especially) because we often times are made to feel very isolated from others because of the deliberate exclusions and verbal attacks.

 

BTW.. I don't think it is this bad everywhere. At least I hope it isn't. I do think that these kinds of things can be better or worse depending on where you live.

 

Also, I have met some amazing Christians. Not all are like the ones I have described. Those that I described however are in the majority around here.

 

I'm wondering if what you are describing is related more to provincialism than to religion.

 

For instance, I live in a more cosmopolitan area and some homeschool groups have a mixture of secular and religious homeschoolers; others have a mix of Christians from different denominations and I can't say that I've ever heard anybody really attack others personally. I have, OTOH, seen attempts at organizational coups in the mixed secular/religious groups where one side, finding only their side at a particular meeting, votes for a policy that would exclude the others (I've seen both the Christians do this to tilt the group toward making Christians ascendant and others feel uncomfortable/unwelcome and in another group, saw the secular folks do this to tilt the group toward having the secular folks ascendant and the Christians feel uncomfortable/unwelcome. It doesn't seem to be any easy balance.) BUT, I've not seen people personally attacked or excluded because of their beliefs.

 

On the other hand, in a number of small towns, you can have the same beliefs and be excluded because you were not born there. There is more of a focus on finding differences of any kind and "pecking at them" hen-style.

[HRAAB]

For background - I was raised Catholic and attend the Catholic Church with my family although I'm very much outside of Christianity at this point. Anyway, I've had other Christians approach me to inform me I was going to hell or that I worship statues or something equally ridiculous. I have had other Catholics point out that we're not good Catholics for reasons such as our dd's being altar servers or receiving Communion in the hand. I never realized the division between conservative and liberal Catholics until I started homeschooling. What a shock. I've had an atheist bil point out how stupid I was to believe in God. I've had Christians tell me that my understanding of God (current) basically makes me an atheist (if you don't believe in the true God then you're an atheist). Whatever.

 

Isn't this just human nature? The need to separate and divide, draw lines. 'I believe this - they believe that. I'm right and they're wrong.' The need to compare ourselves to others in an effort to convince ourselves we're right and all good. Just part of our ego? I do feel religion creates an environment that encourages this, but I've found the same behavior across all religions or lack of religions.

[Just Robyn]

Hmmmmm. Again, I'm trying very hard not to sound rude/harsh/etc.

You can't speak for or against another person's faith, even if you wear the same label. IMO, each person owns their individual faith and that individual's behavior for the most part IS a reflection of their 'beliefs'. Many people say that being Christian does not mean they are perfect, just forgiven. Sometimes that seems to be 'reason' enough for someone to treat someone poorly and not feel guilty about it. Also the verse that says people will become easily offended, that seems to give others (some) a license to offend. I wish those people would focus more on the stumbling block and plank in your eye verses instead. ;)

BUT, IMO, if someone claims to be a Christian, then they ARE a Christian, whether their behavior meets the 'standards' of other Christians or not.

 

An interesting case: My friend's mom labels herself Christian, but also says she's not so sure there's really any sort of god and also doesn't behave particularly Christlike (not like she's markedly un-Christlike, just your average human being) and isn't a church-goer. She is somehow both agnostic and Christian? In her faith being Christian just means you call yourself Christian? My friend and I have privately labeled her "culturally Christian."

[secular_mom]

An interesting case: My friend's mom labels herself Christian, but also says she's not so sure there's really any sort of god and also doesn't behave particularly Christlike (not like she's markedly un-Christlike, just your average human being) and isn't a church-goer. She is somehow both agnostic and Christian? In her faith being Christian just means you call yourself Christian? My friend and I have privately labeled her "culturally Christian."

Yes, there are people who call themselves Christian and who don't share many/any of the beliefs of other Christians. Many people just accept the label given to them by their parents and never change it or even think about changing it. There can be such a stigma attached to NOT being Christian that I do understand their desire to retain the label. Some don't want to remove that label because they don't want to cause any emotional pain for family members who truly believe that they will burn in hell for not believing.

[LauraGB]

Yes, there are people who call themselves Christian and who don't share many/any of the beliefs of other Christians. Many people just accept the label given to them by their parents and never change it or even think about changing it. There can be such a stigma attached to NOT being Christian that I do understand their desire to retain the label. Some don't want to remove that label because they don't want to cause any emotional pain for family members who truly believe that they will burn in hell for not believing.

 

And interestingly enough, it is most often those people who will toss out the accusations or be the ones to chastise another. I believe faith (or lack of) is a very personal thing. And I've found that people who are secure in their faith (regardless of what it is or isn't), while they tend to freely discuss it because it is a part of who they are, tend to understand how very personal it is, and are generally not the ones who will offer up an accusatory "you're going to hell for..."

[Blessedfamily]

Hmmmmm. Again, I'm trying very hard not to sound rude/harsh/etc.

You can't speak for or against another person's faith, even if you wear the same label. IMO, each person owns their individual faith and that individual's behavior for the most part IS a reflection of their 'beliefs'. Many people say that being Christian does not mean they are perfect, just forgiven. Sometimes that seems to be 'reason' enough for someone to treat someone poorly and not feel guilty about it. Also the verse that says people will become easily offended, that seems to give others (some) a license to offend. I wish those people would focus more on the stumbling block and plank in your eye verses instead. ;)

BUT, IMO, if someone claims to be a Christian, then they ARE a Christian, whether their behavior meets the 'standards' of other Christians or not.

 

bolding mine-

 

Yes. That is used all the time. (In my opinion incorrrectly) It means people may be offended by the message, not the (rude) messenger.

[sleepymommy]

Light-years away from being an atheist; however, many Christians share your same problem of raising a family when surrounded by fundamentalist culture. As others have posted, the same practices of patience and good manners are required for all of us, no matter what our religion.

 

At home we teach that other beliefs are wrong. That is what parents should do within the private family circle. I certainly expect an atheist to be firm with her own children, within her own home, when teaching what she believes to be true.

 

When interacting with other people from other religious (or non-religious) backgrounds, the tenets of ones own faith for how to live in the world govern behaviour. So whereas I may be hurt by, and may pity members of a Christian sect who treat me like dirt (and I don't keep track of how often this happens), I recognize that they are "living their faith" as it is taught them. Oddly, they don't seem to understand how such behaviour destroys all possibility of them converting me to their way of thinking !

 

Our children are taught to take people as they are, where they are. Change for anybody is voluntary, and usually comes slowly. We do not attempt to force our beliefs on anybody else, and that also is a core practice of our Orthodox faith. We try to make Christ available, if someone freely wishes to listen, which is 100% different from clobbering people over the head with Him. We respect free will absolutely, and do not proselytize other Christian groups. My personal interior wrath rages whenever I read about Christian groups going to Russia, to Greece, or to Eastern Europe to convert the people -- who already are Christian ! (It is a disgraceful practice.)

 

What about the free will of those that are not Christian?

 

I'm sorry, it just really bothers me that even though there is so much disagreement within the various beliefs of Christianity itself, it is still supposedly the "only true way" to God and everybody else needs saving.. so we can then just all disagree about the same religion together I suppose.

 

I, personally, find the effort put in to converting people from any country or of any religion a disgraceful practice.