I'm spineless and I hate it!!

[Kelli in TN]

I no longer open the door for people I do not know. I do have a locking storm door and once in awhile I will lower the screen a couple of inches to hear them, but I will not unlock the door. I have no problem closing my door, and deadlocking it, right in their face.

 

I was not always this way and we have some expensive purchases made because we wanted someone to go away or the salesgirl was so sweet or yada, yada, yada. It has been years since we did anything like that.

 

The worst to me is the ones selling Christian books. Way to spread the Good Word there, by overcharging for Christian materials.:glare:

 

Of course I am a telemarketers nightmare too. Dh and I like to compare and brag to each other about how we get rid of unwanted calls.

[Denise in IN]

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/products/pro03.pdf

 

Here is something that might help. The 3 day cooling off rule is mandated by federal law, not state law. If they didn't provide a valid phone number for you to call to cancel your sale (and it appears they didn't), I think you are absolutely within your rights to put a stop payment on the check. If the bank is still open, I'd do it now and not wait until tomorrow. As someone else said, they're probably already at their bank depositing the check!

 

Yes, what she said! You have a right to cancel within 3 days for any reason. You should have a sales receipt that provides that information. If you don't, cancel the check.

 

Here's my advice on how to help yourself say no. Make a "family policy". Blame it on your dh if you have to. ;) But make a policy that you will not buy anything from door to door salespeople, over the phone, etc. Or if you just really like to talk to these people, make it a policy that you (or your dh) will not buy anything from door-to-door or over phone without consulting the other.

 

Then you can "blame your policy" rather than have to come up with reasons/excuses. "I'm sorry, but we have a policy of not purchasing these items without consulting the other spouse. I'll be happy to take information on your product." Repeat as often as necessary. Do not try to think of other reasons. Do not give in to the pity party. Just repeat your line as many times as it takes!

[GothicGyrl]

Oops. There's a bit of conflict in your advice to Jul, Toni.

Not really conflict--more of the first time I posted that I was worried that they would be back and then the more I thought on it, I wanted her to know that there is a good chance they won't be back--at least not tonight and especially not if they try to cash the check.

 

I might not have made that clearer the second time I posted, but the more I think on it, the more I am not worried about them coming back at all. These guys are more hit and run artists than anything. Of course, there is the odd chance they could--just like with anything else, but I doubt it now.

 

And I hope I am right. I don't want them coming back, but I do want her prepared in case they do.

[Just a Jen in Mississippi]

Well I called the local police, they told me to call the state police and then she transferred me to voice mail????

 

So I have the kids shoes lined up by the back door in case we need to run and a cell phone in my pocket.

 

I am so nervous!

 

Bless your heart! I'll say a prayer that this is resolved quickly and easily. This is one of those tough lessons learned. I bet you'll be strong as an ox the next time you have to say no to a pushy salesman. Best of luck to you!

[Colleen]

I'm glad you followed the advice offered here and cancelled the check. I understand your husband's point, to an extent, but these were unusual circumstances. I do want to add something to the advice that's been extended. Most people who replied were disturbed by the behavior on the part of these so-called salesmen; I'm disturbed by that, too. I'm equally, concerned, though, with the role you played in this.

 

Please understand; it's not my intent to make you feel even worse about what happened. But I do think you need to work to understand what prevents you from asserting yourself and saying, "No, thank you". I find that quite often, people who consider themselves "spineless" are trapped in this cycle. When faced with the need to say, "No", they cave to self-talk: "I'm horrible at saying no. Why don't I just say no? I don't want to go along with this. Here I go again..." It's an excuse of sorts ~ excusing themselve from saying no, even while they know deep down that they'll regret not doing so later.

 

Your inability (or unwillingness, I'd term it) to say no should be addressed, particularly given the fact that you had children at home ~ and, as you mentioned, you want to set a good example for them in this regard. Others have suggested practicing saying no; I think that's a fine idea. But maybe you need to dig deeper, to consider why you aren't doing what you say you want to do. Hope that makes some sense, and I wish you all the best!

[MelissaMinNC]

I did this EXACT thing a couple years ago. The good news is, it pretty much cured me from being afraid to tell people no. Well, sort of. Sometimes, when I'm not feeling up to repeatedly saying no thanks, and possibly getting suckered/beaten down again...I just don't answer the door. If dh is home, I let him deal. It's not ideal by any means, but I haven't bought in to any more "crazy deals" since the meat fiasco.

 

One thing I was able to do though, was call the guy up who sold me the (not very good tasting, I'm sorry to tell you) meat, and tell him that he needed to let me pay for it in installments. He came back the next day, returned my check to me, and I was able to make 2 slightly less horrendous payments, instead of the one that would have kept us from actually eating anything BUT the meat. Ugh.

 

Oh, the other good news is - the crazy deal meat guy has never come around here again. They know they'll never sucker you twice on the same deal, they don't even try.

 

HUGS, sorry it happened to you!

Melissa

[Scarlett]

Wow! I am soooo glad you cancelled the check. I am shocked that it all went down the way it did. I agree with Colleen that you need to get to the bottom of why you would let 2 strange men intimidate you into doing something all the while your entire being screaming no!

 

I guy came to my door the other day....selling...???? magazines I think. He was dressed nicely with a tie...and had some sort of name tag on the waist band of his pants. I was on the phone with a friend and rather distracted and thought it would be my son coming home from the neighbors. So I opened a door I normally would not have opened. Anyway, after I opened it, I kept the phone to my ear (and my friend was there on the other end listening) and told him no. He saw me looking him over and he said something very defensive like, 'What's the matter, aren't I dressed for the part?' Well, I immediately started my 'no I'm not interested' speech...and he was very persistant. I said no about 6 times and finally just shut the door.

 

He was on our 24 house cul-de-sac street with no car....and about them my dh came home and saw him walking and called the police. Police came but didn't even talk to him! Anyway, later my neighbor called me and told me I had him pegged because she talked to him and when she looked over his material she said she told him it was too expensive and he got REALLY angry...He said she had wasted his time and 'how do you think I feel about right now?' She said, 'well according to your body language I'd say your'e po'd.' He said, yes. She said, 'I think you better leave. Now.' Her dh was home though.

 

Yikes. Yes. Do go to the mirror and practice. Hey I do it all of the time when I practice conversations with my psycho MIL. :)

[MoniMoni]

I think those same guys came to our house during the summer and they've tried to come back (we didn't buy the 2nd time). I am just the same way but I'm getting better....although I did buy some dead sea salt scrub the last time I was at the mall because the woman wouldn't take no for an answer{{sigh}}. I'm starting to think the reason a lot of people are curt or rude nowadays is because of things like this, they don't want to get talked into buying something. Ugh. I hope your meat is better than ours was...

 

Hey Angela! :ohmy: You wrote my post! Right down to the dead sea salts! Our meat wasn't great either, although I talked them way down on price. (I buy on price per pound) and I called DH for backup. I also allowed myself to be talked into Kingfisher (I think) books I didn't need by the nice College kids that go door to door in the summer. I keep thinking the kids shouldn't be out by themselves, and feel sorry for them. They are good books though. :001_smile:

[Remudamom]

Please cancel the check anyway. Don't let someone bully you into this. Much better to pay for the cancelled check than all that meat.

 

Someone comes into your house, shoot them.

[Julpost]

I just wrote a letter notifying the "company" (if there is one) that I am asserting my 3 day cancellation right and cancelling my order. I emphasized they needed to CALL before arriving to pick up the beef. I even added that I had been advised by our local police department to not open the door unless there had been prior arrangement for pickup. At the end, I said they should inform their salespeople that they are required by the FTC to notify customers of their right to a refund within 3 days of purchase. I'm going to both fax the letter and send it by certified mail.

 

Hear. Me. Roar.!!!!

 

I feel so empowered. I have to admit, I feel a tiny bit bad for the salespeople, I'm sure they're trying to make a living....but if I can't afford it, I can't afford it. Anyway, according to my online research tonight, a lot of these meat scams sell really awful meat.

 

And I can say pretty seriously that this will never happen to me again. I have a lot of practice to do at saying no, etc. but this was just awful. I can't let this happen again!

 

Thanks for all the advice. If I hadn't had so many messages saying cancel the check, cancel the check, I wouldn't have. No way.

 

I'm so glad I did.:) Although until I get a reply and they actually pick the meat up, I'm going to be a little on edge. I've got all the doors locked and lights on tonight! I don't usually lock screen doors but all everythings buttoned up nice and tight around here.

[Crissy]

 

Someone comes into your house, shoot them.

 

Words to live by, eh, Remudamom?

 

LOL!!:D

[Remudamom]

Well, dang, either shoot em or sic your dogs on em. If I'm outside I usually have at least a bb gun in my back pocket!

[OnTheBrink]

Please cancel the check anyway. Don't let someone bully you into this. Much better to pay for the cancelled check than all that meat.

 

Someone comes into your house, shoot them.

 

And shoot 'em dead, don't shoot to injure. I had a retired LAPD tell me this once. If you shoot to injure, they can, and often will, come back and sue you for it! No, you want an intruder dead on the floor and holding a weapon in his hand.

 

Thankfully, I've never had that happen, but I have had meat salesmen, cleaning product salesman and magazine subscription salesmen at the door. Barking beagles are often a good deterrent.

[beansprouts]

WTG Juls!!

 

I'm proud of you, woman :thumbup:

[Free Indeed]

 

Someone comes into your house, shoot them.

 

:iagree: Can I just say AMEN!!?? :rofl: :thumbup: :smilielol5:

[Kate CA]

I'm glad you followed the advice offered here and cancelled the check. I understand your husband's point, to an extent, but these were unusual circumstances. I do want to add something to the advice that's been extended. Most people who replied were disturbed by the behavior on the part of these so-called salesmen; I'm disturbed by that, too. I'm equally, concerned, though, with the role you played in this.

 

Please understand; it's not my intent to make you feel even worse about what happened. But I do think you need to work to understand what prevents you from asserting yourself and saying, "No, thank you". I find that quite often, people who consider themselves "spineless" are trapped in this cycle. When faced with the need to say, "No", they cave to self-talk: "I'm horrible at saying no. Why don't I just say no? I don't want to go along with this. Here I go again..." It's an excuse of sorts ~ excusing themselve from saying no, even while they know deep down that they'll regret not doing so later.

 

Your inability (or unwillingness, I'd term it) to say no should be addressed, particularly given the fact that you had children at home ~ and, as you mentioned, you want to set a good example for them in this regard. Others have suggested practicing saying no; I think that's a fine idea. But maybe you need to dig deeper, to consider why you aren't doing what you say you want to do. Hope that makes some sense, and I wish you all the best!

 

This is a gracious and important post. Thanks for sharing it, Colleen. :)

[KidsHappen]

If you are interested I have a very old set of encyclopedias I can sell you. I have since learned that if I answer the door to someone I don't know to start saying no before they even start talking. I tell them straight out that I will save them the time because there is no way I am buying. We do not buy anything from our front door, not even girl scout cookies. If they continue talking I just close the door on them and I don't even feel bad about it.

 

Same story on the phone. We are on the do not call registry and if someone happens to get through all I say is we are on the list so please remove us from your list. Click.

 

You can do this!

[abbeyej]

And I can say pretty seriously that this will never happen to me again. I have a lot of practice to do at saying no, etc. but this was just awful. I can't let this happen again!

 

I'm sure glad to hear that -- horrible as I think this scam is, it distresses me even more that you would *let* them perpetrate this on your family.

 

I really don't think you have anything to fear in terms of your physical safety, whether these people come back or not. But I worry a lot about the future if you're timid enough to be so easily railroaded by unscrupulous people.

[abbeyej]

We do not buy anything from our front door...

 

I think this is an *excellent* policy. It's not even one you need to explain to strangers at your door. As soon as you discover they're selling something (whether a tangible object for which they want cash, or their particular take on eternal salvation), you just say, "Oh, I'm so sorry--" and you shut the door. Firmly. And you don't open it again (or communicate through the window).

 

I'm not an unfriendly person. But I don't owe *anything* to strangers who show up at my door trying to get me to buy something (that I could acquire perfectly well on my own, thank you very much) or support their alleged charity (which I could support perfectly well on my own *and* feel more assured that the money was going where I want it to).

 

(I'm much more polite to children, of course, but not to strange teenagers who come to my door.)

[CookieMonster]

We do not buy anything from our front door...

 

I think this is an *excellent* policy. It's not even one you need to explain to strangers at your door. As soon as you discover they're selling something (whether a tangible object for which they want cash, or their particular take on eternal salvation), you just say, "Oh, I'm so sorry--" and you shut the door. Firmly. And you don't open it again (or communicate through the window).

 

I'm not an unfriendly person. But I don't owe *anything* to strangers who show up at my door.

 

(I'm much more polite to children, of course, but not to strange teenagers who come to my door.)

 

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly!

[neesek]

I am so sorry that this happened to you. I think you got some excellent advice and I am glad you canceled the check. It infuriates me when people take advantage of my telephone and come to my house, then put me in that kind of predicament where I feel I have to be unkind to get my point across. My telephone and door are for my use, not theirs.

[Kelli in TN]

I also allowed myself to be talked into Kingfisher (I think) books I didn't need by the nice College kids that go door to door in the summer. I keep thinking the kids shouldn't be out by themselves, and feel sorry for them. They are good books though. :001_smile:

 

Me too. Not once but twice. We bought a big brown book called "Basic Knowledge" or something like that. And we bought an overpriced Bible.

 

That company sends the nicest, clean cut, polite college age kids out to sell and I fell for it twice.

 

I find the meat people easy to say no to because they are usually not polite and often look kind of dirty and unkempt. Well, at least the ones that have shown up in my driveway looked that way.

[Remudamom]

I thought about this post today when I paid the man who delivers our propane. He's not considered a stranger (to the adults around here) and generally stands right inside the door while I write his check. Today he just barely stepped in and put his back to the wall and stood very still. Facing him was my little heeler, who considers herself a rabid crocodile trapped in a dog's body.

 

When I commented on his chosen position, he just said, "Yep, I got yer dawgs figgured out!"

 

My dogs are usually a PIT...F(anny) but every once in a while they are very handy.

[j.griff]

Here in San Diego, I've been targeted by young adult magazine salespersons in parking lots. No kidding.

They start talking to me about having to talk to so many people in order to earn credit for a class and win a trip. I cut them off and tell them I don't want to buy any magazines- they tell me "Oh, no! That's the LAST thing I'd ask you to do". I tell them, "Indeed, it IS the last thing you are going to ask me to do, after you think you've won my confidence by chatting and asking personal questions. Don't bother!"- smiling the whole time. I think I shall call the police or report them to the management of the store next time and have a big burly manager escort me to my vehicle. Blech.

[Julpost]

I faxed the letter (stating the stopped pymt. on the check and for them to call to set up a time to pick up the meat) to the only number listed on the brochure and sent the same letter by certified mail to the only address listed. I waited and waited and waited for a reply (assuming that SOMEONE received my fax) and would be either calling to say I sent it to the wrong number or to discuss the situation. I didn't hear from anyone, at all, all day.

 

So, tonight, as I'm leaving with a friend to go to a homeschool moms meeting and my dh is pulling out of the driveway with our van loaded with all the kids to go to AWANA, and what do you know, I see the white van pass our street!

 

Desperate to get this over with (and feeling bold with my dh and friend there to support me) I have my friend chase the truck down and stop them as they are pulling out of a neighbors driveway. I run up to the truck, real friendly like, say "hello!" and proceed to ask the salesman if he got my fax, that I wanted to cancel the order, yada, yada. He says basically no way, I should have read the back of the brochure, there are no refunds. I say, actually it's my right, according to the FTC, that I can cancel any purchase I make in my home within 3 days. He says it doesn't matter who I spoke to, I can't cancel. I say, go talk to my dh, he's waiting for you in the van at the end of the street, I've got to go, I'm late for a meeting.

 

So he drives to meet dh and we follow. I jump out to introduce him to dh, dh says very plainly "we are returning the meat." The guy keeps arguing, saying I don't know who you talked to, it doesn't matter, we don't do returns. My dh just stuck right in there saying, we are returning the meat, it's our right, and it's being returned. (I was so proud of him). So I had to leave at that point because my friend, who was my ride, had to be at the meeting early and we were already late. I felt horrible having to leave.

 

When I got home tonight, my dh was pretty tired but told me they were coming back by tomorrow at 6pm. I guess they said they will have to talk to their home office in Florida. Then he went to sleep.

 

So we'll see what they say tomorrow. All I know is, they are not coming inside this house, if we have to argue about it in the driveway-so be it, and I am so thankful that we cancelled the check.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you ladies!!! I wish I could buy you all a coffee!

[OnTheBrink]

Good for you!

 

I'd also speak with your Attorney General and see what sort of complaint you can lodge on them. What they're doing is illegal.

[Mom2jnb]

Julpost,

 

I am glad that you stood up for yourself.

 

Good for you!!! You have done the right thing.

 

Alison

[StacyWithFourRugrats]

I am glad they appeared to listen to you and your husband and yourself stuck to your guns. I often feel guilty when I get pretty close to slamming the door on people like this (luckily our neighborhood doesn't get this much), but it is better in the long run.

 

Tho I am a sucker for all the school fundraisers ;)

[Janet in WA]

When I got home tonight, my dh was pretty tired but told me they were coming back by tomorrow at 6pm. I guess they said they will have to talk to their home office in Florida. Then he went to sleep.

 

So we'll see what they say tomorrow. All I know is, they are not coming inside this house, if we have to argue about it in the driveway-so be it, and I am so thankful that we cancelled the check.

 

 

So you're only going to let them come back to your home when your dh is home, right?

[KidsHappen]

I hope that it goes smoothly tomorrow.

[Julpost]

OH YES! They will be coming over after dh is home from work. Actually I'm not sure if they are coming over or calling.

 

I had put notes up on both the side entrance and front door saying: ALL AMERICAN STEAK and SEAFOOD: Please call between the hours of 7pm-9pm to arrange pickup. That kept me from worrying whether they were just going to show up before dh got home tonight. I figured they could read the note and go on their merry way. I had no idea we'd actually see them driving around my neighborhood!!

 

 

I just filled out a consumer complaint from on the attorney general's website. I tried calling yesterday (left a message) and today. I hope I'll hear something tomorrow. I spoke to a state trooper today and she emphasized I needed to get his license plate. (forgot to do that tonight.)

 

It feels great to be doing something about this. Just can't wait for it to be all over. I was so nervous today, I didn't want to go home because I was afraid they'd show up. I felt like a fish in a fishbowl at home. I wanted to stay out all day, driving around and shopping. I hated feeling like that in my own home!

[gardenschooler]

Julpost, I am SO PROUD OF YOU!!!

 

But I do have one concern, and that is, the conversation that might take place when they come to pick up the meat.

 

Whatever it is supposed to be, they already came and didn't pick up the meat tonight. To me, that's not a good sign. I think they'll come back in with some scare tactics tomorrow.

 

I would put the meat in a grocery bag on the porch around a quarter to six, and be GONE for an hour or so. Or at least get everyone (including dh) off on a walk (not that your dh would be swayed or intimidated by these crooks, just that he shouldn't have to hear whatever it is they have to say). None of you needs to hear one word they have to say, really.

 

I would put a note on the meat, saying:

This meat was placed on the porch 2 minutes ago (but don't list a time, lol), so there should be no qualms about its return. Please remove it and vacate the premises at once. We have contacted the Attorney General concerning your company and its sales practices.

 

And no matter what they do, if they come back, if they call, do not talk to them. Especially if there are two of them. You just never know what they might try to pull on you. They might lie and say you said you'd changed your mind about the return, or who knows. Just don't talk to them.

 

And warn your neighbors!!

[Aubrey]

I tell you what. I don't buy stuff from people who show up at my door...I'm not going to make a decision off-the-cuff like that, but...if nothing else, I'll *never* buy meat from these guys now. I mean, I'd always wonder where it had been! Ya know?

[Julpost]

I've just finished reading some hair raising stories about mainly magazine selling door to door salesmen. I really don't think I'm going to sleep tonight. I was going to post the link but I don't want anyone else shaking like a leaf like I am right now. I CAN NOT BELIEVE HOW MANY CRIMES OF RAPE AND MURDER HAVE BEEN COMMITTED BY TRAVELING SALESMEN. It's a much scarier, scarier world than I thought. All I can say is...I am thankful this has happened...I'm thankful I'm ok....and I'm thankful to know how dangerous people can be.

 

I'm got all the screen doors locked as well as the regular doors. I've got my cell phone with me (did you know some burgulars cut the power and phone lines before entering??) and I'm passing on this info to everyone I know. I'm not going to live in fear but I'm going to take this very, very seriously. We have a big dog (she's a big teddy bear but can look scary).

[gardenschooler]

Julpost, don't be afraid. You be strong.

 

They're probably not going to try any physical violence - didn't they already have the chance for that, when they were in your house with you? Still, I'm glad you won't be letting anyone in your door ever again!

 

I would be more concerned they'd seek revenge by going through my garbage and trying to steal my identity, or pull some other scam on me. They won't be happy about the canceled check and no chance of trying to get you reeled back in. That's why I suggested not even being around. And be very leery of any 'special offers' you get in the next few weeks. They might run more than one scam. These are not nice people; don't treat them as such.

[Hope]

As he turned to go the car, I said "never mind I am not interested." He pushed a little more, but I kept saying no and he gave up. Boy, am I ever thankful now that I did!!! I am so sorry that happened to you.

[LizzyBee]

You know one thing that's been bothering me about this thread? There used to be (and maybe still are) some reputable companies that sold premium meat door to door. They had legitimate phone numbers that you could call if you wanted to order more before they were in your neighborhood again. Bringing it to the home was a matter of convenience. When we lived in Baltimore, we bought meat that way when we could afford it, and it was way better than what we bought in the grocery stores. But here in NC, someone came to my door selling meat, I bought some, and it was not "premium" at all. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't anything special either. I was so disappointed with it; now I'm realizing that I should just be thankful none of us got sick from it. :ack2:

[Julpost]

A man called claiming to be from All American Steak and Seafood saying he received my fax. He says he does not have any salesmen in VT and does not know the person who sold me the meat. So who were those guys? Or is this guy telling the truth??

 

Is this just crazy or what? I don't know whether to believe him or what. I guess the cops can figure this out. I'm venting here because the state trooper I've been talking to has been out on the road all day so I had to leave her voice mails.

[CookieMonster]

A man called claiming to be from All American Steak and Seafood saying he received my fax. He says he does not have any salesmen in VT and does not know the person who sold me the meat. So who were those guys? Or is this guy telling the truth??

 

Is this just crazy or what? I don't know whether to believe him or what. I guess the cops can figure this out. I'm venting here because the state trooper I've been talking to has been out on the road all day so I had to leave her voice mails.

 

Wow, are you in the middle of it!

 

I would let the cops figure it out - who it is that's telling the truth.

[JudoMom]

That's crazy! It just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. I'm glad you've stopped payment and the police are involved.

[ConnieB]

Curious....you stopped payment, and apparently filed a police report (very good idea first because if these guys ARE fraud which I think sounds very probable, then they need to be caught....and second, if they aren't then you need the protection so YOU don't get in trouble.).

 

Ok, so now you've been told by the company that they or their sales people didn't sell the meat to you. Sounds more and more like you definitely have fraud happening.

 

So, curious........do you plan to eat the meat? I'd be very worried about it's quality.

 

And did you contact your local newspaper and/or TV news folks? At this point, I'd probably be more concerned with getting the word out to the rest of my town folks, than in trying to track down the company.

 

We recently had a similiar door to door thing going with a "security company" But when one smart neighbor called the company they supposedly worked for, the company said they don't sell door to door. These "salesmen" were collecting deposits with promises to order the equipment and come back for installation the next week. Because we had a rash of thefts, people were on edge. The fact that the teenager responsible was caught red-handed a week before the salesman appeared didn't seem to calm people. The salesmen made several thousand dollars in "deposits" in just a few days. Thankfully I refuse to talk to anyone selling door to door...just too much fraud out there....so when they tried the scare tactics with me, I informed them of the arrest and he left. It was a few days later that I learned they had bilked neighbors! If only I'd known that when they came by, I'd have immediately called the police to let them know they were in the neighborhood.

 

Ok, sorry for the long story....but I'm just trying to say, it's great that you are doing detective work....but please, please, get the word out to your community. It might save someone else the same heartache you're feeling.

[beansprouts]

Wow!

 

That's all.

[Julpost]

No, no, no....we're not eating the meat. Just thinking about it makes me feel queasy.

 

You're right though-I do need to let the community know. I've called some of my neighbors to alert them and I'll call more tomorrow.

 

Interestingly enough, the guys never called us tonight. I hope I never hear or see them again. I've had enough of this!

[beansprouts]

I don't think you will hear from them again - not unless they are REALLY STUPID!