Anyone read 'The Gift of Fear'?

[Blueridge]

I was going to download it to my Kindle :) but was wondering if you thought it would be a good/beneficial book for my 16dd to read, too. Opinions? Thanks!

[5forMe]

Yes, I thought it was excellent. I think I enjoyed Protecting the Gift, by the same author even more.

 

Enjoy!

[FO4UR]

I read Protecting the Gift not long ago, same author. I highly recommend it to a 16yo, so long as she's emotionally ready for some of the scary accounts in the book.

 

Pre-read it first, iow.

[cathmom]

Yes! It's a great book, especially good as she starts being interested in relationships.

[smrtmama]

Yes, it's a book everyone (especially women) should read.

[dangermom]

Yep, definitely a book everyone should read, esp. women.

[Spy Car]

Yikes!

 

Reading the previews, that book looks seriously twisted. I don't know how you teach "intuition" by reading a book, but what a way to mess with a child's head.

 

Better to teach self-defense and how to say NO!

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I don't think you teach intuition either, but you can teach someone to TRUST his or her intuition. This, I think, is the point of the book.

 

And you do that by exposing them to rape stories?

 

Isn't teaching a child to trust their instincts, and instilling self-defense a basic part of child rearing? These goals can be accomplished without making children paranoid. This book seems positively traumatizing.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Unfortunately, many girls are raised to "be nice," which translates to "don't question authority" and "ssshhh, be quiet" and "don't make a scene" and whatnot.

 

If that's the way these girls are raised, I don't see a book on fear-mongering helping the situation in the slightest. Better to put the girls in a Krav Maga class so they can have the tools to defend themselves.

 

Walking around with confidence deters attack, walking around carrying an aura of fear (which I strongly suspect reading this book would heighten) makes one more likely to be a victim.

 

These messages aren't directed in the context of potential rape, of course, but they are powerfully sent in myriad circumstances. Thus, some girls don't really trust their instincts.

 

Of course the opening chapter is a rape.

 

And if you raise a girl to be "passive" how does reading traumatizing tales really help? There is a root cause to be addressed. And I don't think rape stories are the best means to do that from either a psychological or practical perspective. I really don't.

 

Bill

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

Better to put the girls in a Krav Maga class so they can have the tools to defend themselves.

 

Bill

 

:iagree:

 

If I had teen girls, I'd be signing them up for Krav Maga (and might do that later on with my boys, as well). I'd be there in a heart beat, but I haven't been able to invest that sort of time in evening classes with 3 little guys at home.

 

Incidentally, though, I did attend a self defense class for women taught by an awesome Krav Maga instructor. He had both The Gift of Fear and Protecting the Gift on his display table and highly recommended them. I read Protecting the Gift a couple years ago and thought it held some excellent advice. I wasn't traumatized by it, even though I tend to be on the anxious/fearful side (that might be an understatement). I haven't read The Gift of Fear, though, so therefore cannot comment on it.

[Blueridge]

Wow, I am really glad I asked! I'm going to read it myself, then decide. My daughter is really quite savvy and outgoing, but we have been a little sheltered, so I was hoping to find something of this type of book to add to her collection of books. I did not know that rape was a major topic...:tongue_smilie: This was actually *inspired* in me after a 'close call' with an insurance adjuster who came on way to strong TO ME, and I honestly was not prepared. We live a quiet life in the country, and try to think the best of people, but this type of trusting attitude was not wise of me in that instance. I did send him packin' out the door. :D So how do we teach our kids to be street-wise but not fearful, so they understand that not all people who ring the doorbell or talk to us in the grocery store line are nice? Thank you all!

[nono]

If that's the way these girls are raised, I don't see a book on fear-mongering helping the situation in the slightest. Better to put the girls in a Krav Maga class so they can have the tools to defend themselves.

 

Walking around with confidence deters attack, walking around carrying an aura of fear (which I strongly suspect reading this book would heighten) makes one more likely to be a victim.

 

 

 

Of course the opening chapter is a rape.

 

And if you raise a girl to be "passive" how does reading traumatizing tales really help? There is a root cause to be addressed. And I don't think rape stories are the best means to do that from either a psychological or practical perspective. I really don't.

 

Bill

 

Hey, have you read the book or just the reviews?

 

I'm one of the most aggresive women out there, physically able, and can probably take you :tongue_smilie:, and the book was still a useful read for me. Quite frankly, why should I have to put all the physical effort out to quell an attack if by reading a few detailed stories, I can learn to fine tune my hearing and other senses to avoid the situation from developing into an attack??

 

Also, our children come with their own personalities -- even if I am not raising my child to be "passive," she may still have those personality instincts in her. Teaching her ways to "tune in" to how a weirdo/attacker tests for those passive traits will give her more tools in her arsenal and possibly help her.

 

The book also focuses on HR issues -- like the candidate who won't go away or the "unfireable" employee, so it's not all about reading rape stories.

 

But, considering the age of the student in question, I do think you have a point...

 

To the OP, I'd probably read the book myself and then teach the object lessons to your daughter, so she can skip the more graphic areas.

[Spy Car]

Hey, have you read the book or just the reviews?

 

I only read the first rape chapter, and another "Surprise Me" chapter that suggests firing employees late-in-the-day so when they go on a violent rampage loss of life and property are minimized.

 

That was enough for me.

 

I didn't read the reviews, did someone make some sensible points?

 

EBP: Lot's of good One Star reviews, including a recommendation from a law enforcement officer here in Southern California for Krav Maga. Which is sensible advice, since this Israeli form of self-defense very efficiently teaches one how to "fight dirty" when you need to save your life. As opposed to the years of discipline required to master Eastern-style Martial Arts where one (hopefully) learns to fight "clean".

 

I'm one of the most aggresive women out there, physically able, and can probably take you :tongue_smilie:,

 

You wanna piece of me? Do ya??? :D

 

I joke

 

...and the book was still a useful read for me. [/color]

 

Yeas, but you're "one of the most aggresive women out there" and we are talking about a sweet 16 year old.

 

Quite frankly, why should I have to put all the physical effort out to quell an attack if by reading a few detailed stories, I can learn to fine tune my hearing and other senses to avoid the situation from developing into an attack??

 

I think one can promote awareness without promoting paranoid fears. And children should be taught to see danger, avoid them, say NO!, and failing all else be trained to defend themselves.

 

Also, our children come with their own personalities -- even if I am not raising my child to be "passive," she may still have those personality instincts in her. Teaching her ways to "tune in" to how a weirdo/attacker tests for those passive traits will give her more tools in her arsenal and possibly help her.

 

So probably better you teach her than to hand her a book (especially this one), no?

 

The book also focuses on HR issues -- like the candidate who won't go away or the "unfireable" employee, so it's not all about reading rape stories.

 

Yes, but I found these just as weird (an inappropriate for a 16 year old) as the rape scene. Well, may not AS weird and inappropriate, but still weird and inappropriate.

 

But, considering the age of the student in question, I do think you have a point...

 

Note to self: Try to read ahead before you start to answer:lol:

 

To the OP, I'd probably read the book myself and then teach the object lessons to your daughter, so she can skip the more graphic areas.

 

Perhaps, if one isn't prone to fear, anxiety, and paranoia themselves. If so, better to do Mommy and Me Krav Maga.

 

Affectionately,

 

Bill

[nono]

You wanna piece of me? Do ya??? :D

 

I joke

 

 

 

Me too -- I was echoing your earlier "with confidence" line. :)

 

In all seriousness though, having a quiver of arrows is not a bad idea, eh? I mean, what if the weirdo/attacker has been trained in Krav Maga? Relying on one solution, like one math program ( :D ), can be limiting...

 

And, really, no one book is going to appeal to everyone. Maybe deep down, this is simply a "woman's book." Because I don't think on a general basis, men have rape on their minds nearly as much as women do. It's like terrorism. The threat alone...

[cathmom]

Me too -- I was echoing your earlier "with confidence" line. :)

 

In all seriousness though, having a quiver of arrows is not a bad idea, eh? I mean, what if the weirdo/attacker has been trained in Krav Maga? Relying on one solution, like one math program ( :D ), can be limiting...

 

And, really, no one book is going to appeal to everyone. Maybe deep down, this is simply a "woman's book." Because I don't think on a general basis, men have rape on their minds nearly as much as women do. It's like terrorism. The threat alone...

 

My husband is the one who recommended this book to me. It's a very good book. It's not about fear-mongering; it's about getting rid of unproductive fear and listening to your instincts, plus how to handle various situations. It's been years since I read it so I don't remember a lot of specific stories. There's chapters about dealing with stalkers and dealing with abusive relationships. We wish one of dh's coworkers would have read - she got a restraining order, stayed home from work a couple of days, went back to work and her dh was there waiting for her. He shot her and then himself in front of the building where my dh worked. Oh, how we wish the people in her life had steered her to The Gift of Fear!

[OfcDaddyMan]

I'm a LEO, been a martial arts instructor for around a decade, and have been involved at various levels in women's self defense and personal safety classes.

 

Gift of Fear is a great book and does an excellent job of distinguishing fear (survival mechanism triggered by real danger) versus anxiety (negative physiological reaction to imagined danger) which is necessary for awareness and confidence without the paranoia or stress.

 

I didn't care for the chapter on gun control but that's my POV and, as always, YMMV.

[Spy Car]

Me too -- I was echoing your earlier "with confidence" line. :)

 

In all seriousness though, having a quiver of arrows is not a bad idea, eh? I mean, what if the weirdo/attacker has been trained in Krav Maga? Relying on one solution, like one math program ( :D ), can be limiting...

 

I'm with you, one should be multi-dimensional. And one hopefully has highly-refined intuition. But isn't that part of life-lessons? And isn't learning "intuition" from a book rather like learning to be spontaneous from a book?

 

Besides I don't see this book really teaching intuition, so much as fear and paranoia.

 

 

And, really, no one book is going to appeal to everyone. Maybe deep down, this is simply a "woman's book." Because I don't think on a general basis, men have rape on their minds nearly as much as women do. It's like terrorism. The threat alone...

 

Well, I think if a 16 year old didn't have the fear of being raped hanging over her head before reading this book, she would after-wards. That's part of the problem. Living in fear sucks. And I do understand the ugly realities of our world.

 

So better (as a parent) to train a child not only to be observant, but to give her (or him) the skills they need to disable an attacker if-- may it never happen--they are assaulted. There are very specific means of counter-attack very woman should know. Easily taught, and effective.

 

Fearful people are not observant. Confident people are more intuitive.

 

Bill

[smrtmama]

I think it's also worth mentioning that I have an anxiety disorder and this book not only did NOT create more anxiety, it gave me much better tools for distinguishing between anxiety and my intuition picking up on warning signs.

[Daisy]

I'd be interested in a book that educated me (with my hang-ups) on how to teach my daughter to be careful and watchful without transferring my anxiety onto her. I bounce back and forth between thinking I'm holding onto her too tightly or not tightly enough. Sigh.

[OfcDaddyMan]

I'd be interested in a book that educated me (with my hang-ups) on how to teach my daughter to be careful and watchful without transferring my anxiety onto her. I bounce back and forth between thinking I'm holding onto her too tightly or not tightly enough. Sigh.

 

Realistically, the only way to teach your daughter without transferring the anxiety is to model calm awareness. One book is not going to make that happen, but Gift of Fear would probably add some tools to your belt and give you some meaningful ideas and stories to reflect on.

[FO4UR]

Bill, I see your point...and I've argued it with my dh a few times (must be a "man" thing:tongue_smilie:)...

 

Perhaps "Protecting the Gift" is a better fit for what the OP wants...I've never read the "Gift of Fear."

 

I will say, the author breaks down a predators' moves into a predictable pattern. That "women's intuition" isn't merely intuition...it's sensing these things occuring and concluding "I am not safe. I need to take steps to get safe."

 

I've personally had a close call....before reading this book...and my intuition did exactly as the author instructed. Thankfully, I didn't have to physically fight....the man had a large pole for picking up trash, and I had a van key. I had to use other resources...

 

"Protecting the Gift" specifies other resources. Whether or not it's appropriate for a 16yo to read is not up to me, but I highly recommend teaching the lessons within the book.

[KristenS]

So, would I, as an adult with a diagnosed panic disorder and a deep passion for children's safety, benefit from reading one of these titles? And which one? (My kids aren't old enough, so at least I don't have to worry about that.)

 

With an anxiety disorder, you begin to lose the ability to trust your intuition ... because EVERYthing makes you anxious. (And yes, anxious people do observe a lot ... and can take a line of reasoning to some really long distances!)

 

I'd love to be able to discern better when to take action and when to tell myself to calm down ... my therapist is great, but I'm one who really does learn well from books. But I don't want to scare myself silly either.

[FO4UR]

 

 

 

Well, I think if a 16 year old didn't have the fear of being raped hanging over her head before reading this book, she would after-wards. That's part of the problem. Living in fear sucks. And I do understand the ugly realities of our world.

 

 

 

Fearful people are not observant. Confident people are more intuitive.

 

Bill

 

I agree with the bolded 100%. You assume that people who have fear are not confident. Everyone has fear. Fear is a tool, and when we recognize fear for what it is we can then analyze if the fear is warranted or not...if we need to act fast or not. I think knowing what fear means empowers and imparts confidence.

 

The thing is....being raped is a realistic fear for 16yo girls. It just is. It is empowering to be able recognize that there are usually warning signs and patterns to these things.

[smrtmama]

So, would I, as an adult with a diagnosed panic disorder and a deep passion for children's safety, benefit from reading one of these titles? And which one? (My kids aren't old enough, so at least I don't have to worry about that.)

 

With an anxiety disorder, you begin to lose the ability to trust your intuition ... because EVERYthing makes you anxious. (And yes, anxious people do observe a lot ... and can take a line of reasoning to some really long distances!)

 

I'd love to be able to discern better when to take action and when to tell myself to calm down ... my therapist is great, but I'm one who really does learn well from books. But I don't want to scare myself silly either.

 

Gift of Fear is the one geared towards adults. I found it VERY helpful in terms of discerning between reasonable and unreasonable fears. It also gave me some good tools for stopping fearful situations.

[brehon]

I'm with you, one should be multi-dimensional. And one hopefully has highly-refined intuition. But isn't that part of life-lessons? And isn't learning "intuition" from a book rather like learning to be spontaneous from a book?

 

Besides I don't see this book really teaching intuition, so much as fear and paranoia.

 

Note: I'm talking about Protecting the Gift. I've read both and prefer this one.

 

It's actually not teaching either intuition or fear/paranoia (if by fear one means a crippling feeling leading to the inability to live or act). Not to get all psychoanalytical on ya, but it validates the intuition to correctly "read" situations/people that all of us have. It helps people (especially females) realize that it's OK to think "there's something not right about that well dressed man over there. I'm getting a bad feeling about this situation. I need to take steps to protect myself." AND, more importantly, to act on that feeling. Too many women sense danger, but either dismiss their instinct (their intuition) outright or don't take appropriate action to protect themselves because they don't want to make a scene or have someone think they (the women) aren't nice or any one of a number of societally conditioned responses women (generally) have.

 

And then couple the above mentioned general societal norms (which, unfortunately, are what they are) with the realization that most abuse/rape/molestation/etc occurs by family or close family friends. This book helps people recognize that it's OK to do what you have to do to protect yourself (or your family) from others (even family) who would harm you.

 

Well, I think if a 16 year old didn't have the fear of being raped hanging over her head before reading this book, she would after-wards. That's part of the problem. Living in fear sucks. And I do understand the ugly realities of our world.

 

Yes, living in fear stinks. deBecker doesn't advocate that. He advocates being aware and trusting that little voice we all have. And 16 yo females do have to be aware that they could very easily be raped -- date rape, family "friend", step-dad, neighbor, you name it.

 

So better (as a parent) to train a child not only to be observant, but to give her (or him) the skills they need to disable an attacker if-- may it never happen--they are assaulted. There are very specific means of counter-attack very woman should know. Easily taught, and effective.

 

This I whole-heartedly agree with. My ds' TKD instructor (a 5th degree black belt in TKD and he has various degree black belts in other martial arts as well) holds self-defense courses for women. He unreservedly recommends this book to everyone, not just women.

 

Fearful people are not observant. Confident people are more intuitive.

 

I'm not sure I totally agree with you here. I think I know what you're saying; though, I would say that confident people are less likely to be targeted and fearful/anxious/paranoid people are more likely to be targeted. This is one of the points de Becker makes: the fear based in anxiety/paranoia can very easily prevent the survivial instinct from doing its job. I don't think confident people are necessarily more intuitive, though, of course, they very well may be more likely to be so.

 

Bill

 

Oops, duty calls -- let me (hopefully) finish my thoughts after I get back from saving the public from itself. <much later> Sorry, this took awhile. You'll notice I changed the title of the book up at top of my reply...I got the two books confused. Bill, I think that some 16 yo's can handle the material in the book and some can't. Perhaps the best path if the OP doesn't think her dd is ready for some of the stories is to read the book (and I think Protecting the Gift is better for practical ideas) and then discuss it with her dd.

Edited March 3, 2010 by brehon

[nono]

I'm with you, one should be multi-dimensional. And one hopefully has highly-refined intuition. But isn't that part of life-lessons? And isn't learning "intuition" from a book rather like learning to be spontaneous from a book?

 

Besides I don't see this book really teaching intuition, so much as fear and paranoia.

 

 

 

Are you really living in an area where a woman can get these life lessons on a regular basis? That's heavy. One mistake in this area can be quite consequential. The book helps gather scenarios to give us some collective history, so we don't have to live those life-lessons ourselves. It's like tapping into The Borg.

 

If you read the entire book, or even half of it, perhaps you'd have a different impression of the book. And maybe not. However, several people on this thread have said it did NOT make them paranoid or fearful.

 

Anyway, do you have other book(s) to suggest to the OP instead? (since you've already mentioned your preferred self-defense method)

[Spy Car]

Are you really living in an area where a woman can get these life lessons on a regular basis? That's heavy.

 

One need not be attacked to have a sense of ones surroundings. Awareness and a sense of potential danger is a good survival skill in a metropolitan area (or any other area for that matter).

 

The book helps gather scenarios to give us some collective history, so we don't have to live those life-lessons ourselves. It's like tapping into The Borg.

 

Which sounds great for a woman who is prepared to fight back.

 

Perhaps, less great for a naive 16 year old who has never learned self defense.

 

If you read the entire book, or even half of it, perhaps you'd have a different impression of the book. And maybe not. However, several people on this thread have said it did NOT make them paranoid or fearful.

 

I'm impressed by that fact that poster I greatly respect value the book. I really am.

 

Anyway, do you have other book(s) to suggest to the OP instead? (since you've already mentioned your preferred self-defense method)

 

It doesn't have to be Krav Maga. Any good self-defense program aimed at women where you learn eye-gouging, head-butting, finger twisting, foot-stomping, screaming, and any of a number of fighting techniques would be a good start IMO.

 

Bill

[sleepymommy]

I've not yet read Gift of Fear (it's currently being held for me at the library), but I'm presently reading Protecting the Gift. Thus far, I think this book is fantastic. If Gift of Fear is anything similar, I would think that it helps one to distinguish "red flags" along with your intuition. Together, one could better trust their feelings in a situation. It doesn't set out to make someone paranoid or overly fearful.

 

To the OP, like I said, I haven't yet read GOF, but I do think that a 16 year old would benefit from reading PTG. I know it's meant for adults about their children, but there is still much that a teenager could glean from it. Especially, the parts about "danger signs" regarding husbands, these same signs are pertinent to boyfriends.

 

As far as self defense goes, PTG does encourage parents to get their children involved in self-defense programs too.

[cathmom]

Learning self-defense and reading a book are not mutually exclusive.

 

One of the best parts of Protecting the Gift is teaching children to go to a woman for help if they need it.

[dangermom]

Bill, read the whole book. Really, seriously--read the whole thing and then I want to know what you think. It seems to me that you've taken small chunks only and are assuming a lot from them, and a lot of your assumptions are the opposite of the point of the book. :001_smile:

 

It's true, however, that Gift of Fear is aimed at adults--so is Protecting the Gift IIRC. I seem to remember that there was one for teens, but if not a parent should certainly read the book and pass on the lessons.

 

My buddy the cop, one of the smartest and best guys I know, recommends this book to absolutely everyone. So there you go, my buddy the cop said so. :D

[Mom-ninja.]

Well, I think if a 16 year old didn't have the fear of being raped hanging over her head before reading this book, she would after-wards. That's part of the problem. Living in fear sucks. And I do understand the ugly realities of our world.

 

So better (as a parent) to train a child not only to be observant, but to give her (or him) the skills they need to disable an attacker if-- may it never happen--they are assaulted. There are very specific means of counter-attack very woman should know. Easily taught, and effective.

 

Fearful people are not observant. Confident people are more intuitive.

 

Bill

 

The book is called The Gift of Fear. Fear is a good thing. Primal fear, survival fear is good. Anxiety is not. The author explains the difference. So a 16 yr old girl living in fear of rape is good for her. It should be on her mind. She is a target.

 

Bill, you say you understand the realities of the world. However, you don't *live* those realities as a woman/girl does. You can't. You are not a woman. When you walk out the door you are not a target in the same way a woman is. A woman's reality is very different from a man's.

 

DeBecker knows what he's taking about.

 

Besides, you haven't read any of the books. You can't form a good opinion without having done that.

 

Everyone should read the book. Oh, and the very things you say a parent should teach children is what DeBecker says.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Kleine Hexe

[Garga]

I read Protecting the Gift by the same author and it changed the way I viewed things considerably. Instead of living with nagging fears, it freed me from them. I now feel confident in my ability to determine when I'm in danger, and how to respond, and also how to avoid dangerous situations in the first place.

 

I went from worrying about when/if I'd be a victim, to knowing how to avoid these things and take charge/control of events.

 

Bill, you've told stories of playing football and tackling people in bars. As a 5'3 small woman with no strength to speak of, we live a different life! If someone attacked you (which they wouldn't be likely to do in the first place) you would be fighting back from a position of power. If someone attacked me (which would be much more likely as a small female) I would have a complete disadvantage. I mean, complete. I have no physical defenses against the average male. You've maybe not ever thought how that would color parts of your life, if it were your daily reality.

 

Knowing how to avoid the situation in the first place is extremely freeing to me. I do agree that taking self defense classes is awesome. But best is for me to avoid conflict in the first place.

 

These books do not teach intuition at all. They teach you how to recognize it and know when/how to act on it. They teach you the common danger signs that predators display so you can recognize them instantly.

 

A 16 year old girl knows shes a target for rape. At that age, I knew it and worried about it, because I had no clue how to stop it. I would have preferred to read something that educated me on how to avoid/handle dangerous situations, rather then me just wondering if it would happen to me.

[Spy Car]

Bill, you've told stories of playing football and tackling people in bars. As a 5'3 small woman with no strength to speak of, we live a different life! If someone attacked you (which they wouldn't be likely to do in the first place) you would be fighting back from a position of power. If someone attacked me (which would be much more likely as a small female) I would have a complete disadvantage. I mean, complete. I have no physical defenses against the average male. You've maybe not ever thought how that would color parts of your life, if it were your daily reality.

 

Actually I have thought about it. And have taught a good number of women who've been in my life exactly how to deal with an attacker. How to deal with them if they attack from the back, how to deal with an attack from the front and how to deal with an attacker on top.

 

A 5' 3" woman can do a lot of damage with a thumb or several fingers driven into the eye-socket of an attacker who doesn't expect it. You really do have defenses. But they are skills that need to be cultivated before one is attacked.

 

Knowing how to avoid the situation in the first place is extremely freeing to me. I do agree that taking self defense classes is awesome. But best is for me to avoid conflict in the first place.

 

No argument.

 

These books do not teach intuition at all. They teach you how to recognize it and know when/how to act on it. They teach you the common danger signs that predators display so you can recognize them instantly.

 

OK, you gals are telling me it's great. But I'm reading passages in the rape chapter like:

 

Since he was dressed and supposedly leaving, he had no other reason to close her window. It was a subtle signal that warned her, but it was fear that gave her the courage to get up without hesitation and follow closely behind the man who intended to kill her, She later described a fear so complete that it replaced every feeling in her body. Like an animal hiding inside her, it opened to its full size an stood up using the muscles in her legs. "I had nothing to do with it." she explained, "I was a passenger moving down that hallway."

 

And I'm thinking, this is fear-porn.

 

A 16 year old girl knows shes a target for rape. At that age, I knew it and worried about it, because I had no clue how to stop it. I would have preferred to read something that educated me on how to avoid/handle dangerous situations, rather then me just wondering if it would happen to me.

 

I'm all for girls/women being fully aware of how to defend themselves and/or keep themselves out of potentially dangerous situations. If I'm wrong about this book, I'm just as happy. But I'm not seeing it.

 

I don't buy that fear is a gift. Fear is theft. Theft of piece of mind. Theft of innocence. And a theft of well-being.

 

It's good to be aware, and have self defense skills. But this guy (to my mind) seems to be fetishizing fear as a means to make money off women who are afraid. I understand the fears. And the dangers of living in this world as a female. I just have my doubts that this guy is offering the right solutions.

 

Maybe I'm wrong?

 

Bill

[OfcDaddyMan]

 

I don't buy that fear is a gift. Fear is theft. Theft of piece of mind. Theft of innocence. And a theft of well-being.

 

It's good to be aware, and have self defense skills. But this guy (to my mind) seems to be fetishizing fear as a means to make money off women who are afraid. I understand the fears. And the dangers of living in this world as a female. I just have my doubts that this guy is offering the right solutions.

 

Maybe I'm wrong?

 

Bill

 

Your perception is understandable because you have only read two chapters out of context of the rest of the book. The first chapter is startling, and involves a real circumstance that is just shy of the worst case scenario. He uses that account within a broader context in later chapters to develop some of the book's main ideas. Most notably, he defines fear as something productive, a warning sign of actual danger perceived by the subconscious. The way you use the word fear above is what de Becker labels anxiety.

 

Seems like you have some experience with personal safety topics, so I would be interested to see your assessment of Gift of Fear after you have read it.

[dangermom]

Read the book and you'll find out!

 

The point of the story is that her intuition was what saved her--not her rational mind, which is trained to explain away fear, not her 'polite' self, which put up with an overly-familiar stranger because she didn't want to make a fuss. She didn't need to think "He closed the blind, therefore he has something in mind that he doesn't want visible, therefore he is lying to me, therefore I need to do something, what should I do?" Her instinct took over and she got out--it's a story of victory through trusting yourself.

 

He's talking about fear as a tool--if you're suddenly afraid for what seems like no reason, it's because your subconscious has noticed anomalies and is reacting. So there's no need to go around afraid all the time "because a rapist might be hiding behind every bush." That's counterproductive. Nor is there a need to dismiss sudden fear as irrational and silly--if you are suddenly afraid, there is probably a reason that you just haven't noticed consciously yet. So you can go about your life in a relaxed way, and when you're afraid, you pay attention and do something about it. Before you allow a stranger into your apartment, and without giving in to manipulation or worrying that he'll think you're rude.

[happygrrl]

Fearful people are not observant. Confident people are more intuitive.

 

Bill

 

Slight hijack: I just read "Last Child in the Woods" and the biggest light bulb moment for me was reading about a mom who, when her child was headed out the door, eschewed "be careful" and instead said "pay attention". Wow!

[Mom-ninja.]

I have heard this book is good too.

 

Bill, you're still basing your opinion on a book that you have not read. Your definition of fear is different from DeBecker's. Also this guy, DeBecker, has the experience to know what he's talking about. With his career I highly doubt he's just trying to make money off of scaring women.

 

Here's an excerpt to Q&A from DeBecker on a page for his new book. He explains what his book Gift of Fear is about.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Kleine Hexe

[Joanne]

I'm all for girls/women being fully aware of how to defend themselves and/or keep themselves out of potentially dangerous situations. If I'm wrong about this book, I'm just as happy. But I'm not seeing it.

 

I don't buy that fear is a gift. Fear is theft. Theft of piece of mind. Theft of innocence. And a theft of well-being.

 

It's good to be aware, and have self defense skills. But this guy (to my mind) seems to be fetishizing fear as a means to make money off women who are afraid. I understand the fears. And the dangers of living in this world as a female. I just have my doubts that this guy is offering the right solutions.

 

Maybe I'm wrong?

 

Bill

 

Bill, I'm feeling a bit frustrated and disregarded as an informed grown woman who's actually read (both) books by the author.

 

Wrong?

 

Yea, I'll say.

 

You have formed strong opinions on what women need for safety and the feeling of safety as a man and formed opinions on books you haven't read. :confused:

 

The *reality* is that you will never understand the physical threat and vulnerablity of women. I recently counseled a mom whose (submissive minded) husband wanted to wait on needed vehicle repairs. A disconnect happened because his experience of being stranded with a non working vehicle is not the same experience of HER being stranded.

 

I'd say your posts in this thread have a similar challenge.

 

No amount of classes will make a women's experience and vulnerability like yours.

 

The "fear" that de Becker writes about in both books corresponds to intuition which is actually discernable *information* that is given. This information is often stuff children, especially girls, are socialized to disregard, dismiss, ignore. De Becker gives readers the reasons behind the "intitution", he decodes the communication and hints about predators, he *empowers* readers to trust that feeling.

 

Honestly, I'd rather not be told by some guy who hasn't read the book what I, as a woman, should esteem as useful for my safety.

[smrtmama]

Bill, I'm feeling a bit frustrated and disregarded as an informed grown woman who's actually read (both) books by the author.

 

Wrong?

 

Yea, I'll say.

 

You have formed strong opinions on what women need for safety and the feeling of safety as a man and formed opinions on books you haven't read. :confused:

 

The *reality* is that you will never understand the physical threat and vulnerablity of women. I recently counseled a mom whose (submissive minded) husband wanted to wait on needed vehicle repairs. A disconnect happened because his experience of being stranded with a non working vehicle is not the same experience of HER being stranded.

 

I'd say your posts in this thread have a similar challenge.

 

No amount of classes will make a women's experience and vulnerability like yours.

 

The "fear" that de Becker writes about in both books corresponds to intuition which is actually discernable *information* that is given. This information is often stuff children, especially girls, are socialized to disregard, dismiss, ignore. De Becker gives readers the reasons behind the "intitution", he decodes the communication and hints about predators, he *empowers* readers to trust that feeling.

 

Honestly, I'd rather not be told by some guy who hasn't read the book what I, as a woman, should esteem as useful for my safety.

 

 

My husband (OfcDaddyMan, commented on the previous page) is a cop, martial artist, and women's personal safety seminar instructor. The reason he doesn't like to call it "women's self defense" is because the goal should be to AVOID getting to the point where you're having to physically defend yourself from an assailant. The class he and another LEO/martial artist designed pulls heavily from DeBecker's awareness techniques and from crime statistics from our area.

 

I'm sure Bill means well, but if he realistically thinks the average-sized woman, even with "self defense" classes, is going to be able to easily defend herself from a large male assailant, well...I believe in complete social equality, but that might be taking the idea of men and women being equal to the wrong conclusion.

[Spy Car]

The *reality* is that you will never understand the physical threat and vulnerablity of women.

 

Hey Joanne, I'm sorry you are feeling frustrated, but how in the world do you know what I understand (or don't)???

 

This is a book clearly aimed at adults (like yourself) but I question its use with a naive 16 year old, based on admittedly small sampling of the book, but one that hit me as fear-porn.

 

If it helps you (or anyone else) great. I hope women have skills to feel and (as importantly) actually be less vulnerable. We are not on different teams in this regard.

 

I'd say your posts in this thread have a similar challenge.

 

And I'd say you are making me a whipping-boy for opinions I don't hold. Do you really think I don't understand the vulnerabilities women face? Really???

 

I

No amount of classes will make a women's experience and vulnerability like yours.

 

No argument. But a woman who is effectively trained in "dirty" fighting techniques can save her life.

 

And, in case you missed it, I believe raising a child (male or female) to be aware of their surrounding is something that should be inculcated in their upbringing, and not left till age 16, at which point you toss them a book that starts with a rape.

 

So it's about the "means" one uses, not the ends.

 

The "fear" that de Becker writes about in both books corresponds to intuition which is actually discernable *information* that is given. This information is often stuff children, especially girls, are socialized to disregard, dismiss, ignore. De Becker gives readers the reasons behind the "intitution", he decodes the communication and hints about predators, he *empowers* readers to trust that feeling.

 

The man could have titled his book "The Gift of Intuition" but he didn't. He no doubt knows you make a lot more money off fear. And he can try to re-define "fear" to mean something other than "fear", but he makes his money off fear.

 

Honestly, I'd rather not be told by some guy who hasn't read the book what I, as a woman, should esteem as useful for my safety.

 

Honestly Joanne, if you want to be rude and dismissive, and call me "some guy," my feelings will be bruised.

 

Bill

[Joanne]

And I'd say you are making me a whipping-boy for opinions I don't hold. Do you really think I don't understand the vulnerabilities women face? Really???

 

Yes, really.

 

I will never understand my husband's current reality of being an unemployed *male* in this culture. I get, intellectually, that being an unemployed male is different than an unemployed female.

 

But truly understand? Of course I can't. I haven't been living as a male for 58 years in Western culture.

 

You haven't been living as a female in this culture; don't try to tell me you understand.

[Spy Car]

Also this guy, DeBecker, has the experience to know what he's talking about. With his career I highly doubt he's just trying to make money off of scaring women.

 

 

I'm kind of hoping to back out of this thread, but Gavin De Becker runs a 200-member consulting firm that sells security service to scared people. He makes his living in the fear industry. This industry works by feeding people paranoia, then telling them you will make them safe.

 

Just read my book "This book can save your life" or hire my firm (if you have the dough). I work in Hollywood. I've worked with stars who've been sucked into the fear-industry (body-guards, coordinated movements) and much bigger ones who have not. The latter lives better live IMO.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Yes, really.

 

I will never understand my husband's current reality of being an unemployed *male* in this culture. I get, intellectually, that being an unemployed male is different than an unemployed female.

 

But truly understand? Of course I can't. I haven't been living as a male for 58 years in Western culture.

 

You haven't been living as a female in this culture; don't try to tell me you understand.

 

You play that way of thinking to its logical conclusion, and no one will every understand anyone else.

 

Personally, I think this is an absurd way to look at the world.

 

Bill

[smrtmama]

I'm kind of hoping to back out of this thread, but Gavin De Becker runs a 200-member consulting firm that sells security service to scared people. He makes his living in the fear industry. This industry works by feeding people paranoia, then telling them you will make them safe.

 

Just read my book "This book can save your life" or hire my firm (if you have the dough). I work in Hollywood. I've worked with stars who've been sucked into the fear-industry (body-guards, coordinated movements) and much bigger ones who have not. The latter lives better live IMO.

 

Bill

 

You're passing a lot of judgments on a book you've never read, Bill. I would think you would know better than that.

 

If the man is an expert in the field of personal safety, why should he not have a consultation firm providing services in that field? Is he obligated to provide his services for free? Is someone's advice suspect because they charge for related services elsewhere?

Edited March 3, 2010 by smrtmama

[hornblower]

Bill, I typed up a response, deleted it (because it had all been said, I thought) and then you posted again. And here I'm back at it.

 

I really object to your use of the phrase fear-porn regarding DeBecker's work. I've been a fan of his for a long time now & I believe you're mischaracterizing him.

 

I believe that we actually are hard-wired to be fearful and suspicious. There are evolutionary advantages to animals who are reasonably cautious, who are - deep inside - fearful of strange clans, of outsiders, of different tribes.

 

Many of our social interactions and rituals are about appeasing fears. Open hands, sharing of meals, gestures of hospitality, etc etc etc.

 

As our world has gotten crowded and mixed globalized, most of us are no longer members of one tribe, warily checking out another tribe which came over a hill. (though often politics still has that feel to it).

 

We've often had to deeply suppress our caution about new people and things. BTW, I believe that fundamentally evolution favours the cautious. The risk takers in the population do have an important role because they WILL take risks and so will make a lot of mistakes - sometimes fatal "ooops, this berry/mushroom/root is poisonous. Don't eat it. Learn from my mista...."<dying gasp with a gurgly chortle> - from which the rest of the population can learn. Of course every once in a while a risk taker will find out something tremendously useful: "hey, this berry isn't poisonous and it tastes good too! We won't starve after all!".

 

So - I think we have a deep predisposition to be cautious and careful and yes, fearful of new things and people, but our lifestyles and culture has been pushing that down deeper and deeper. Fundamentally you can't really live in any modern, metropolitan area without pushing that down.

 

What DeBecker is saying though is that there is still some value in learning to listen to that inner gut fear. Not always, not so that you're in a constant state of fear. But to listen to it, to acknowledge it and to understand that often it's trying to tell us something worth while.

 

In Protecting the Gift he talks about how whenever serial killers are found there will always be a neighbour or a relative or a co-worker who will say "There were no signs. He seemed like a normal guy." DeBecker calls BS on this. There WERE signs. There always are. We're not paying attention to them. That's all.

 

That's what it's about.

 

Fundamentally, they're empowering books - I think that's why you're getting flacked on. We who have read and learned from these books feel stronger - not weaker or fearful.

[smrtmama]

Fundamentally, they're empowering books - I think that's why you're getting flacked on. We who have read and learned from these books feel stronger - not weaker or fearful.

 

Exactly.

 

I also found "fear porn" to be quite offensive and totally off the mark.

[Spy Car]

My husband (OfcDaddyMan, commented on the previous page) is a cop, martial artist, and women's personal safety seminar instructor. The reason he doesn't like to call it "women's self defense" is because the goal should be to AVOID getting to the point where you're having to physically defend yourself from an assailant.

 

Of course, that's the smart thing. Your husband sounds like a nice guy by-the-way (not that I'm surprised).

 

The class he and another LEO/martial artist designed pulls heavily from DeBecker's awareness techniques and from crime statistics from our area.

 

Nothing wrong with that. But this does found like a more appropriate means that tossing a sweet 16 year old (that is what we were discussion here) a book that opens with a rape. The rape might get her attention, but...

 

I'm sure Bill means well, but if he realistically thinks the average-sized woman, even with "self defense" classes, is going to be able to easily defend herself from a large male assailant, well...I believe in complete social equality, but that might be taking the idea of men and women being equal to the wrong conclusion.

 

What I'm saying is a woman who is raised learning to take care of herself has a better chance of foiling an attack that one who has not.

 

Try this at home. Put out your hand flat (palm down). Now fold your fingers back so the tips meet the pads at the top of the palm (not a "fist", flat). Now hold the thumb firmly against the fingers.

 

Now (really really gently) tap on your "Adam's apple" (do you gals have those? :lol:) with that triangular packet of knuckles. Hurts, yes?

 

Imagine what would happen if you could get in a clean shot. A woman who is 5' 2" and 100 lbs could decimate a 200 lb man with this shot.

 

The bottom of the palm (in a hand expended to its most open position, with fingers tucked) driven from below up into a nose-bone. Pretty effective.

 

Somebody grabs you? Get ahold of a finger and try to snap if off backwards. Trust me they will let go. Scream!

 

There are ways to make oneself "more safe." That includes being aware, and having defense skills.

 

It's cool that you husband helps women :001_smile:

 

Bill

[smrtmama]

Of course, that's the smart thing. Your husband sounds like a nice guy by-the-way (not that I'm surprised).

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with that. But this does found like a more appropriate means that tossing a sweet 16 year old (that is what we were discussion here) a book that opens with a rape. The rape might get her attention, but...

 

 

 

What I'm saying is a woman who is raised learning to take care of herself has a better chance of foiling an attack that one who has not.

 

Try this at home. Put out your hand flat (palm down). Now fold your fingers back so the tips meet the pads at the top of the palm (not a "fist", flat). Now hold the thumb firmly against the fingers.

 

Now (really really gently) tap on your "Adam's apple" (do you gals have those? :lol:) with that triangular packet of knuckles. Hurts, yes?

 

Imagine what would happen if you could get in a clean shot. A woman who is 5' 2" and 100 lbs could decimate a 200 lb man with this shot.

 

The bottom of the palm (in a hand expended to its most open position, with fingers tucked) driven from below up into a nose-bone. Pretty effective.

 

Somebody grabs you? Get ahold of a finger and try to snap if off backwards. Trust me they will let go. Scream!

 

There are ways to make oneself "more safe." That includes being aware, and having defense skills.

 

It's cool that you husband helps women :001_smile:

 

Bill

 

"Get in a clean shot" is the issue here, Bill.

 

1. Is an assailant really going to give me a clear shot at his Adam's apple, nose, groin, etc.? Not if he's moving rapidly, too tall for me to reach easily, grabs me from behind, hits me before I have a change to get in a shot, has any martial arts/military training of his own. Also, to be effective, physical techniques need to be practiced to the point of muscle memory, or adrenaline is going to lock you down and make you unable to use those techniques.

 

2. Do I want to focus primarily on self defense methods that require someone getting close enough to me for me to get in a clear shot or do I want my backpack of tools to also include tools for discerning safe situations from unsafe, warning bells from anxiety, the time to exercise manners and the time when I should scream "BACK OFF YOU CRETIN!" Sure, I'm glad I have also learned techniques for escaping after physical contact has been initiated, but DeBecker doesn't suggest a woman doesn't need those, too. Hence, why we keep saying to read the book before you pass judgment. ;)

 

You can make a reasonable attempt to empathize with a woman's situation, but you cannot understand the social pressures of being a woman, especially (as I am) a woman raised in Southern society, where there is such an expectation of being polite, of allowing someone to do things for you or else be called unflattering names. That's a major focus of DeBecker's book, the number of times women have a bad feeling and ignore it because of a desire to conform to social expectations of politeness.

 

Gift of Fear isn't a magic bullet to stop assault, but it's the best tool I've encountered for helping overcome that social pressure and listen to my instinct without worrying about being perceived as a fool or a b*tch. Because of my husband's line(s) of work, I've had the opportunity to try out many, many tools (both physical and mental), bu not every woman has an Officer Daddyman to a make sure they know all that stuff.

[Joanne]

"You can make a reasonable attempt to empathize with a woman's situation, but you cannot understand the social pressures of being a woman, especially (as I am) a woman raised in Southern society, where there is such an expectation of being polite, of allowing someone to do things for you or else be called unflattering names. That's a major focus of DeBecker's book, the number of times women have a bad feeling and ignore it because of a desire to conform to social expectations of politeness.

 

.

 

I also found "fear porn" to be quite offensive and totally off the mark.

 

:iagree: After I read The Gift of Fear and Protecting the Gift, I went through my personal history. I was able to identify the times I felt the "ick factor" and how *spot on* it was every time, how my upbringing as a female factored into my "listening" to my intuition, and even the words of people around me encouraging dismissing the information my intuition was telling me.

 

I finished reading the books empowered, aware, equipped.

 

This has been a week of irony on the boards for me. :lol::001_huh: We are discussing issues of empathy, hostility, "nice" expectations. In the thread, I am accused of "whipping boy" behavior after having challenged a man on his actual ability to understand a woman's experience of being a woman and challenging his visceral reaction to a book he didn't read.

 

Whatever. Back to New Testament class.

:auto:

[sleepymommy]

Bill, from what I've read, De Becker wants to take the reader to that spot in your mind with thoughts that you dread going to. He describes it in detail and then breaks it down into pieces for better understanding. He does this not to make one fearful, but to make one aware. There are many things that we don't want to think about that could very well happen. The thoughts are too harsh, too scary. But his whole point is that those who want to deny those thoughts are the most vulnerable. Knowing the dangerous situation and really dissecting is key to protecting yourself in the future. You come away feeling more empowered because your no longer 'in the dark' about those thoughts, those possibilities, your no long afraid to even think it because you already did.

 

Your comments about exposing a sweet sixteen year old girl to the realities of rape are a little whimsical. The fact is that she IS very vulnerable to rape and empowering her with the knowledge of how to assess and be aware of those situations is much more helpful to her than shielding her from reality.