How much is too much? College loans...

[mom2abcd]

Ds has been accepted to three colleges and today received his first financial aid package. The university costs $35,000/year, but after scholarships, grants, etc. the loan amount would be $18,600 for the first year.

 

($10,000 of that is a Fedearal PLUS loan which it says creditworthy parents can get... Dh is heading back to graduate school himself so we will both be working part-time and have NO money to help ds. We've always said the kids will have to take care of their college costs themselves, as I did.)

 

Now the university may find some funds when they know for sure that our income will be lower. But I don't know that.

 

My question is: How much is too much for a kid to take on as college loans? I know couples who would have liked for the wife to be a stay-at-home mom, but feel she needs to work to pay back loans. I'd hate for ds to get in this situation (and I realize we don't know if his future wife will have loans).

 

Ds plans to be a civil engineer so he will hopefully make pretty good money. He plans to graduate in four years and then live simply to get everything paid back ASAP. But $74,000 in loans?! It seems like too much.

 

How much were your college loans and how long did it take to pay them back? Mine were $1,500 and I paid it back my first year of teaching.

 

How much is too much?

[*anj*]

IMNSHO $74,000 is too much.

And if you consider what happens to the best laid plans of mice and men...

 

Think of the hard work and discipline required to pay back a debt of that enormity. For this reason I don't entirely agree with the "they'll have to pay their way just like I did" thing. Oh, don't get me wrong--I understand that parents don't have the money to bankroll it. But you said that your loans were $1500. My loans were about $8,000, dh's were about $3500. It took us a long time to pay ours off, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to what your ds will need to repay. And then that's assuming he doesn't feel the need to go to grad school. Or take a 5th year. Or a summer session, you know?

 

If there is any other way to get him educated, I'd recommend going that route.

 

This is hard stuff, isn't it?

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I just think of how much time it's taken to pay back our combined total of $12,000 (still not completely done) and I cringe at that amount. I would look at options.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it's too much.

 

Quote from http://www.bls.gov/k12/build05.htm

The middle half of all civil engineers earned between $51,430 and $79,920 per year in 2004. The lowest-paid 10 percent earned less than $42,610. The highest-paid 10 percent earned more than $94,660.

According to a 2005 salary survey, people with a bachelor's degree in civil engineering started at $43,679 a year on average. People with a master's degree started at $48,050 a year. People with a Ph.D. started at $59,625 a year.

 

They start out at an average of $43,679 a year. What if he also finds his future wife while in college and they want to start out their lives together? I just think $74K sounds like a lot of debt for a young couple to burden. I would consider small schools that may offer more help in the way of scholarships or large state schools that are less expensive.

[Mrs. H.]

Dh's student loans from law school were $60,000. They are set up to be paid off 30 years from when they started, at about $275 per month. We can pay more anytime we want, and pay them off early. The interest rate on them is about 2.75%.

 

Just thought I'd give you our scenario, so you know about how much the monthly payments run.

[3littlekeets]

I bought an extra house in student loans. Though I have a career I love, in retrospect, there were other ways to go. First, most large state schools offer CE. Why a private or out-of-state?

 

Also, he can always go to a state school and transfer, if he is very diligent in making sure the classes he takes will transfer.

 

I think that is too much, from someone who has btdt! Though, my interest rates are much, much higher!

[FriedClams]

I think it's an outrageous amount. I had no student loans - but I went to a military academy. Wasn't always fun - that's for sure - but 10 years after graduation I left with money in the bank, a college degree, a graduate degree and an amazing resume, (which I using daily as a SAHM homeschooling mom, LOL!!),. There are other ways to make school happen - ROTC, community college to state school or state school transfer to private. There's also taking a little longer and working - or working and taking online classes in conjunction with regular classes. I am anti debt - it's just too hard for an 18 year old to say that they want to be at x place in x years - and financially plan on it. There are also TONS of scholarships out there - search Dave Ramsey's site and get applying. I've heard stories of students spending a summer applying to 1000 scholarships, getting 10% and paying for 4 years. Yes, it's work, but it's better than having to make choices at 35 for decisions you made at 18. JMHO.

[Marie in Oh]

Even though it seems like he's gotten alot to help out with. I just wouldn't be comfortable with that amount of debt.

 

We have friends who's oldest in a similar boat. College of choice is 33K and he's gotten 26K in scholarships and grants. So, 7K a year to either borrow or work. I think that is doable, but then he wants to go to medical school. Yikes.

 

What about a job for him at the school? Is that a possibility? If he could make 10K working, that would really cut down on the debt.

[KidsHappen]

Combined my dh and I borrowed about $35,000 but we borrowed when the interest rate was 9% and during that very small window when you couldn't refinance to a lower rate. We also deferred out loans for quite a while because we couldn't afford the payments early on. We currently owe $80,000and with a 30 year payment schedual we pay $600 a month on our student loans. That's a huge chunk of change. More than a car payment. I seriously doubt that we will ever have a second car because of it. Our mortgage will be paid off before our student loans. I DON"T recommend this. Student loans are basically forever even if you change your mind and decide to do something else. Or as in my case put your degree to no use what-so-ever. Encourage him to find a cheaper school.

[Ottakee]

Can he start out at a smaller local college or community/junior college for his first 1-2 years and then transfer? That might save a lot of money.

 

I would try to avoid loans as much as possible. Can he apply for every scholarship under the sun? I have heard of kids that apply and apply and apply and end up getting almost a free ride because they spent 10-20 hours a week applying for scholarships. It is a lot of work but the payoff is great if he gets some of them.

[Jenny in Florida]

Personally, I know I signed those student loan promissory notes without really understanding just exactly what a burden the loans would be in my future. Granted, I was a full partner in getting myself into financial trouble in the years immediately following college, but those loans were a factor, and they are still hanging over my head to this day.

 

And I didn't borrow anywhere near the amount you're talking about. I think I wound up with about $15,000 in loans, and I haven't managed to pay them back yet (20-plus years later).

 

I would definitely steer my child away from such a plan.

 

--Jenny

[Claire]

$74,000 in loans is too much, IMO. I translate that into the down payment on a house, all furnishings for said house, a new car, and a nice honeymoon -- and that's without any interest payments on the loan amount! It's also a heck of a lot of co-pays and medical/dental bills if your son or his wife/children experience a health-threatening problem.

[Legomom]

When it comes to a career, I always think that it is beneficial to treat yourself as a business. Find out as many of the financial facts ahead of time before making a decision.

 

I would recommend creating a detailed post-college budget before making this decision.

 

Find out specifically what the pay back terms on the loans would be i.e. interest rate, length of loan etc and create an amortization schedule (there are many amortization calculators online).

 

As best as possible, have your son determine where he would like to live after he graduates ( what city, part of the country) and make a detailed budget of the expenses there. Look at current rental prices online based on what kind of living situation he would find acceptable and liveable. Same for a car. Remember insurances costs, professional wardrobe etc. This will give him an idea of the lifestyle that he can have post-college while still paying his loans.

 

While he may change his mind regarding where he wants to live etc. this budget will give him a starting point and a set of parameters for making decisions.

 

Also, try to determine as best as possible the monetary value of the education at this college versus another less expensive option. Ask around and find out what the pay differential is for an employee with a degree from the expensive university versus a less expensive one. This will help determine the true cost of the education. Of course, the nonfinancial aspects of the education must be considered as well.

 

If he decides that he really wants to go to the more expensive college, I wouldn't necessarily worry about accelerating payments on the loans. If he can get a low interest rate, just pay the loans per the schedule. Calculate how much interest he will be paying over the life of the loan. The actual dollar amount may not be that much. If it is 3% or so it is cheap money.

 

Another question to ask himself would be -- if I don't particularly like my career after I graduate, am I willing to work in it for 5 years (or whatever the length of the student loans) in order to pay back the loans before making a job change if that job change would mean I make less money.

 

No matter what he decides to do, if he can make the decision with as many facts as possible it may lessen regrets and "what ifs" in the future.

[G5052]

We have too many friends who have and are still struggling with their student loans because they took out rather large ones. Granted, in some cases there isn't any way around it (several are doctors -- it's pretty tough to work and go to medical school, others got very specialized majors), but in some cases the loans were for majors that they could have pursued at less expensive schools and done just as well. Yes, engineers make good money, but you really don't know the future -- there could be significant medical expensives for a spouse/child, a change of plans, etc. etc.

 

I worked for 15 years before children in scientific research and program management and my degrees were from "upper middle" state schools. I did just fine in comparison to "name" school coworkers who had huge loans. Huge loans are not always necessary.

[Joaly]

I think that 74,000 is much too much debt for someone to take on.

 

Here is another point to consider: a friend of mine graduated with her JD and a similar amount of college debt. She landed a very lucrative position, but because of her debt ratio (primarily from her student loans) she could not get a mortgage to buy a home.

 

This was devastating for someone who had worked so hard to achieve her dream job.

[Nestof3]

IMO, it's too much to pay for college -- period. My brother went to a community college and lived at home for the first two years. He then transferred to the University of Virginia -- his diploma only mentions UVA. Who needs to know?

 

With the houses costing so much, and overall things costing so much, I would never encourage my son to incur that much debt.

[at the beach]

Well, it seems like a lot. My dd is in pharmacy school (an 0-6 Pharm.D. program) and she is incurring debt, but not at that amount but after she finishes it may be that much or more because the last two years are considered grad school and the scholarship amounts are lower. We are paying out of our pockets to the tune of $10,000 plus a year right now, and she won an outside scholarship from hubby's employer. She also works and she was able to save close to $3,000 last summer toward tuition. She puts 80% of her check away to put toward tuition. Plus, next year, she'll make more $ because she'll have an intern license.

 

As for the debt, we took into account her choice of career. Pharmacists around here (in retail pharmacy) are in high demand and start at around $130,000 per year with hefty sign on bonuses of about $30,000 right now. Her college has a 100 percent placement rate. I don't feel uncomfortable for her coming out with what might be considered hefty debt because she will have a job that pays well. If she were going into a field that wasn't in high demand, etc. I would have advised her not to take on a lot of debt. We were also pretty confident that she would see the program through. She isn't the type who changes her mind about things like this. She's slow to decide what she wants but once she makes up her mind, that's it.

 

Now, in engineering, I know that there are co-op programs out there were kids will go to classes two quarters and work one. Those would be five years and I imagine debt goes way down that way. I don't know if those are available in civil engineering or not, but your ds might want to look into that. If your ds has his heart set on this school and there is no better option for him to achieve the same thing cheaper, I would probably not discourage him. BUT I would make sure he understands he has an obligation to work to pay toward this and get that debt amount down. There are options at most schools, like being an RA in his second year that can lower the amount because they'd give him his room for free. If it's a four-year program and he gets through in time, he'll be quite young. He could move home for a few years and really pay that debt down quickly. Even if he meets his future wife at college, there's no reason a 22 year old needs to marry right away IMHO, especially with that kind of debt. He should work to pay it down so he can *then* build his future with someone else. Just my opinion on that.

 

When we first got my dd's financial aid package, I about fell over. LOL. I thought we could never do it. But we're managing. You really need to lay it all out, see what options are available, etc. You know your son best. If he's a responsible, thrifty kid, he'll probably be fine. If he's not, well, the debt may cause issues later.

 

Just some random thoughts... Good luck!

[Danestress]

I'd consider it under the right circumstances.

 

I think you have to look at the degree program and whether a comparable degree would be available somewhere else for less. My local community college does not offer a civil engineering degree that would be comparable to, say, Cornell. And if my child could get in a top ranked school, I would take that into account. I really don't know that much about Engineering, but I imagine that NC State (which my child could attend for maybe $5k in tuition) is a pretty darned good program. So for my child, I might choose the "petty darn good" State University over "the best in the nation."

 

***** Attention: Well Trained readers, I'm not saying Cornell is the best engineering program. This was just a hypothetical. It might not even have a civil engineering program, and if it does, everyone knows that *your* alma mater (whichever that is) has what is actually best ********

 

 

But I don't consider $74,000 totally out of the realm of possibility for a child who is very hard working and responsible, who wants to earn a degree in a profession where he is actually likely to be employable, from a University with a record of placing most of it's graduates in that degree program in jobs in the field within 3 months of graduation.

 

So I guess I fall into the "it depends" category. We oriented toward higher education around here. I would not want my child to forgo a great college experience and go to community college if that weren't his best option academically (not saying it couldn't be best, just saying *if*) because, "I could buy a new car (or any other "stuff") with that kind of money. Earning a living is important and having a great eduction is important. Having furniture in your 20s isn't really (or a honeymoon or new car either).

 

For what it's worth, I told my son who wasn't really an ambitious student (though he had good grades), and who was planning on a liberal arts college, that he had to go to a state school. Or at least that's all DH or I would pay for. His track record just wasn't such that I was inclined to pay private school costs. But for a highly motivated, hard working student for whom a particular private college really was the best option academically and professionally, I would take out a second mortgage.

[Carol in Cal.]

Still, I would start further back in working on this.

 

I would go back to the basics.

 

Is this a 'big name' college? Is your DS VERY determined to participate in this field? If so, attending this school may be extremely valuable to him. IME, companies do look at what college you attend, and some won't even intervew you if you're not from a 'name' college.

 

And going to it all 4 years would probably be best if he can manage it. Lots of kids who start at community colleges don't end up getting engineering quality lower division classes, and end up spending 3 years at the university anyway, getting those 2 years of upper division work completed.

 

So those are the basics for him.

 

For you, the basics should be really, really scrutinizing your offer of support to make sure that it accurately reflects your actual financial picture, and appealing it if possible. I have known people who did this, and it completely changed the equation for them.

 

Only after getting through all of that would I consider whether to accept the loans or not.

[KS_]

Dh and mine were somewhere around $30-$35,000, which was too much. . . I don't know if they changed how they do them now, but when we were in school, no one *ever* mentioned how much it would be for the monthly payments for the amounts borrowed. It was a huge burden after we graduated and we found out how much the total monthly payments were (and I was staying home and we had started a family by then). We thankfully have been able to pay them off faster than required and hope to have them completely paid off in the next 3-4 years (and I graduated college in '97, dh in '98).

 

I would be as conservative as possible with the amount borrowed - it just makes things so much easier to have less to pay back rather than more.

[Plaid Dad]

We are on a 25-year payback plan for my dw's college loans and they are a fraction of that amount. Granted, our income is low, but even when we were making three times what we do now, the monthly payments on the loans were way beyond what we could manage. We consolidated and refinanced to get a more reasonable monthly payment, but that meant stretching the payments out to what feels like forever. Our dd will likely be out of college before we're done paying them off, and student loans are the number one reason we will probably never own a house. I have friends in their 20's who are beginning their married lives with close to $200,000 in debt - and that's before any mortgage, car payments... It's truly frightening.

 

So, yes, I think that's way too much to take on and would strongly urge you to look at other options.

[Josie]

I would look hard for less expensive options. That is a LOT of money.

[mom2abcd]

GOOD NEWS!!!

 

Today ds got the package from his #1 choice... "only" $11,000 in loans the first year (the other was $18,000 or so).

 

That might be more maneagable. He'll earn a couple thousand this summer and at this point, he's ready to put it ALL towards college:o) Work study will take off a couple thousand and he may be able to handle working more hours off-campus.

 

He's sure he can live very frugally and pay it back quickly after graduation.

 

I hope it works out for him since he really likes this university and it's in the top 15 for engineering schools in the US.

[SparrowsNest]

How much is too much for a kid to take on as college loans?

 

I think since he is an adult, the thing to do is advise him as best you can, compare debt-repayment schedules for different amounts as compared to his potential earnings and a reasonable budget, and then let him choose his own path. He is the one who will incur the debt, after all.

[Audrey]

 

How much is too much?

 

This will NOT earn me popular points, but I'm of the opinion that ANY student loan debt is too much. Too many people are practically driven into poverty upon graduation just because of the load of their student loan debts. It is heartbreaking. I also think it borders on criminal the way the loan system is set up. It looks so attractive and easy while you're in school, but once you graduate and reality sets in... that's a totally different story then.

 

FWIW, I did work my way through university. I had occasional help from my parents -- nothing regular, and nothing extravagant either. It took me longer than the standard 4 years to get my bachelor's, but it was a good lesson in life. I made the mistake of taking loans for my graduate work. Although they weren't nearly the level of what other colleagues had taken, they were enough to keep me stressed out, miserable and scrambling to work extra jobs just to make the payments. It wasn't worth it. at. all. I finally paid them off, though. If I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have taken those loans. Period.

 

That's just my opinion, but you did ask. ;)

[Jenny in Atl]

:svengo:

You would have to get one heck of a job after graduation to pay those loans back!

[mom2abcd]

This will NOT earn me popular points, but I'm of the opinion that ANY student loan debt is too much.

That's just my opinion, but you did ask. ;)

 

Hey, that's why I asked, too. I was flabbergasted that a financial aid package for a poor family wouldn't be any better. But then, it's been 20+ years since I talked to people much about college loan amounts.

 

We, too, were hoping he could get a full-ride scholarship or enough grants to go for free. Our family has no debt (and no money;o) and ds has that philosophy, too. However, he would like to become an engineer. For that matter, he would like to get a college education;o)

 

Even the public college would be about $11,000 short. Aren't there others here who have kids in college? Ds won't be able to live at home so can't save in that way.

[Carol in Cal.]

GOOD NEWS!!!

 

Today ds got the package from his #1 choice... "only" $11,000 in loans the first year (the other was $18,000 or so).

 

That might be more maneagable. He'll earn a couple thousand this summer and at this point, he's ready to put it ALL towards college:o) Work study will take off a couple thousand and he may be able to handle working more hours off-campus.

 

He's sure he can live very frugally and pay it back quickly after graduation.

 

I hope it works out for him since he really likes this university and it's in the top 15 for engineering schools in the US.

 

Congratulations, this sounds much better and quite a bit more reasonable. I want to encourage you, though, to still go back through their assumptions about what you can contribute and make sure that you appeal if possible. It is REALLY common for them to make mistakes, and not generally in your favor! Also, as others have suggested, your DS may be able to get coop jobs since he is in an engineering field. When I was in school, those were pretty common starting in sophomore year, and participating in a program like that not only paid my college costs (in full!) from then on, but also made my resume stand out when I was applying for jobs at graduation.

[Asma_08]

Hey, that's why I asked, too. I was flabbergasted that a financial aid package for a poor family wouldn't be any better. But then, it's been 20+ years since I talked to people much about college loan amounts.

 

We, too, were hoping he could get a full-ride scholarship or enough grants to go for free. Our family has no debt (and no money;o) and ds has that philosophy, too. However, he would like to become an engineer. For that matter, he would like to get a college education;o)

 

Even the public college would be about $11,000 short. Aren't there others here who have kids in college? Ds won't be able to live at home so can't save in that way.

 

 

Have you thought about co-op program. I don't know what colleges you are considering but I attended a state engineering university and the co-op program was very popular and its wonderful way to gain real world work experience while earning enough to pay tuition. Maybe thats an option for him.

[mom2abcd]

Have you thought about co-op program. I don't know what colleges you are considering but I attended a state engineering university and the co-op program was very popular and its wonderful way to gain real world work experience while earning enough to pay tuition. Maybe thats an option for him.

 

Can you tell me more about co-ops? What I'm remembering is that it adds a year to your schooling and he really wants to finish in four years. Of course, the finances could change all that. (Though we were assuming that four years would cost less than five;o)

[Karen sn]

Ummmm....that's way too much. These loans grow fast - we all have good intentions but you've heard the road to hell is paved with them?

[Susan in IL]

Well, it seems like a lot. My dd is in pharmacy school (an 0-6 Pharm.D. program) and she is incurring debt, but not at that amount but after she finishes it may be that much or more because the last two years are considered grad school and the scholarship amounts are lower. We are paying out of our pockets to the tune of $10,000 plus a year right now, and she won an outside scholarship from hubby's employer. She also works and she was able to save close to $3,000 last summer toward tuition. She puts 80% of her check away to put toward tuition. Plus, next year, she'll make more $ because she'll have an intern license.

 

As for the debt, we took into account her choice of career. Pharmacists around here (in retail pharmacy) are in high demand and start at around $130,000 per year with hefty sign on bonuses of about $30,000 right now. Her college has a 100 percent placement rate. I don't feel uncomfortable for her coming out with what might be considered hefty debt because she will have a job that pays well. If she were going into a field that wasn't in high demand, etc. I would have advised her not to take on a lot of debt. We were also pretty confident that she would see the program through.

 

Our ds is also in a 0-6 PharmD program. When we first met with financial aid, they gave us a sheet with the expected income and with the max. of student loans and the net after the payments. I think the total loan about was something like $66K. It was very feasible to max out loans and still be able to live afterwards. Ask the finacial aid dept. if they have information similar. If it were not for the fact he will have no problem finding a great paying job afterwards, I would not let him go into that much debt.

[Asma_08]

Can you tell me more about co-ops? What I'm remembering is that it adds a year to your schooling and he really wants to finish in four years. Of course, the finances could change all that. (Though we were assuming that four years would cost less than five;o)

 

 

Yes, it does add a year to your schooling, you go to school one semester and work the next. Honestly, most engineers take more than 4 years to graduate or maybe that was just my school:) I didn't participate but everyone I know who did ended up with great jobs and you actually get paid very close to entry level engineering salary. You really come out with an advantage over other students due to the work experience.

 

He should contact the school he is interested in and ask if its available.

 

Honestly, I really do think those loan amounts are high, I am really surprised that the state schools don't offer more aid. Anyway, all the best to him, I hope he can find a way to reduce the cost of attending college.

[Carol in Cal.]

But it was pretty uncommon to finish in exactly 4 years in chemical engineering anyway. And, of course, I did not have to pay tuition during the coop job quarters, so I just had to pay my living expenses and save to go back to school.

 

The pay depended on the company, with most companies paying quite well and paying more for students who were further along--ie more for a junior than a sophomore.

 

I know that this experience really made me stand out at the end of my BS, and that it enabled me to get a lot of job offers very easily. It sure was nice, after working so hard and so long, to be able to have companies really, really want me!

 

I don't think that I really lost out financially very much by doing this, and I had a happier life from then on because of it. I had no loans at all, and I also did not have to work during the same months that I was taking classes, so I could really focus. That, combined with the great job offers, really made things better. I can't recommend it highly enough.

[Claire]

I just looked up the expected salary range for a pharmacist on http://www.salary.com . For the zip code I used, and basic pharmacy, the salary range was $98,000-122,000. ($98,000 was the lowest 10% of the salary range.) I used the same zip code to look up civil engineering, which I think was the OP's major interest. For the same zip code and the most basic job category, the salary range was $43,000-60,000.

 

It would be interesting if we could work out a rule-of-thumb for student loan amount in relation to expected salary range after school. Looking at the two examples above, I would venture that a student loan probably shouldn't exceed one year's expected salary. For a lower-salaried job, the student loan shouldn't exceed the lower salary amount. For a higher-salaried job, the student loan could probably equal as much as the ceiling salary for one year (since a higher salary means more money left over to pay down a loan after necessities).

[mom2abcd]

I just looked up the expected salary range for a pharmacist on http://www.salary.com . For the zip code I used, and basic pharmacy, the salary range was $98,000-122,000. ($98,000 was the lowest 10% of the salary range.) I used the same zip code to look up civil engineering, which I think was the OP's major interest. For the same zip code and the most basic job category, the salary range was $43,000-60,000.

 

It would be interesting if we could work out a rule-of-thumb for student loan amount in relation to expected salary range after school. Looking at the two examples above, I would venture that a student loan probably shouldn't exceed one year's expected salary. For a lower-salaried job, the student loan shouldn't exceed the lower salary amount. For a higher-salaried job, the student loan could probably equal as much as the ceiling salary for one year (since a higher salary means more money left over to pay down a loan after necessities).

 

 

That would be helpful! Because we are very frugal, and before I had my eyes opened to the actual (high) costs of college today, I would have chosen total student loans not exceeding 1/4 of a first year salary. But I guess that's pretty unrealistic. It depends on the job, too. Hopefully dc 3 & 4 will major in fields that they can get degrees from inexpensive or free colleges.

[at the beach]

I just looked up the expected salary range for a pharmacist on http://www.salary.com . For the zip code I used, and basic pharmacy, the salary range was $98,000-122,000. ($98,000 was the lowest 10% of the salary range.) I used the same zip code to look up civil engineering, which I think was the OP's major interest. For the same zip code and the most basic job category, the salary range was $43,000-60,000.

 

It would be interesting if we could work out a rule-of-thumb for student loan amount in relation to expected salary range after school. Looking at the two examples above, I would venture that a student loan probably shouldn't exceed one year's expected salary. For a lower-salaried job, the student loan shouldn't exceed the lower salary amount. For a higher-salaried job, the student loan could probably equal as much as the ceiling salary for one year (since a higher salary means more money left over to pay down a loan after necessities).

 

This is a great way to look at it. Makes a lot of sense to me.

[at the beach]

If it were not for the fact he will have no problem finding a great paying job afterwards, I would not let him go into that much debt.

 

:iagree: