Any unschoolers here?

[Sue G in PA]

So, if you are brave enough to admit it on the WTM board...could you tell me a bit about what your day looks like? I've been reading a lot of books on unschooling lately. Since my ds8 refuses to do any schoolwork that looks anything like "school" (bookwork) we have had to change our style. Classical worked well for my oldest daughter and ds10 (who are both in ps now). Nothing is working for ds8. He simply is not ready for formal work. It's hard for me to wrap my brain around this, but I have read that MOST 8yo boys really are not ready for formal schoolwork that you would see in a public school. Crazy, but let's assume this is true. So, unschooling...child-led school...interest-driven learning, whatever you call it. How does it work and what does it look like at your house? Past few days as we have all been snowed in, I have seen some glimpses of how unschooling might work. We have played Bananagrams until our eyes were crossed...spelling, phonics, vocabulary? And ds8 LOVED it. I told ds8 I'd pay him $1 per chapter book...and he read 2 (yes 2) short chapter books last night before going to bed. :001_huh: And he could tell me about them. :001_huh: We made Valentine cards for relatives, baked cookies, read lots of books together, played with legos, played Leapster math games, etc. Not formal work, but he learned stuff. Anyway, this got too long, but I'm really wondering if this unschooling might work for this kid.

[Faithr]

I have bounced back and forth between classical and unschooling for most of my homeschooling life! I've done bouts of radical (didn't work for us; we are couch potatoes unless there is something external to drive us!). For the last two years I've done LCC relaxed. That is we do sit down for a short period of time and do math, Latin (sometimes Greek) and writing. I also read aloud a lot to my kids. But the kids get lots and lots of free time the rest of the day to pursue their own passions.

 

Unschooling looks so different depending on your family's style. Some people do a kind of loose Montessori where there are learning centers all around the house and the kids just gravitate to them as they will. Others let their education be guided by outside things like 4-H and clubs, classes, etc.

 

Other people collaborate on a monthly calendar with their kids to plan what they are going to learn about. Everybody finds their own groove. I like to have a little bit of structure so I know that we are getting the basics in. I try to give my kids lots of room within this requirement. Today we really didn't do any sit down work. I read aloud to them, they painted birdhouses they helped their dad build, they played with puppets, they animated on the computer, they listened to music and drew pictures, they watch educational TV, they helped me clean the house. My 12th grader went to his Comm Coll class and then practiced music all afternoon. My 14 yo read a lot and played on the computer a lot. Usually on Fridays we have a small co-op in the a.m. and my 14 yo has a science class he goes to in the p.m. but both were canceled because of our huge snow storm. So this was an off day.

 

The one thing I've found very valuable when being unschoolish is to journal all the learning that goes on. That includes conversations, play, books, games, projects, tv shows, etc.

[LittleIzumi]

There's actually a Classical Unschoolers social group here ;). I do a mix of unschooling and... whatever else we feel like :lol:. Right now, we start with scripture and songs, then after breakfast we get in a some AAS and a little MUS (they call it "silly math"). And the rest is pretty much open. I have NOEO but I'm waiting for the library book I need to be returned so I can use it. We usually read aloud a lot, and the girls gets lots of playtime (we have mostly imagination-based toys). Dd will pick her own unit studies--she'll see a book on a subject at the library and then want to check out almost every book on that subject, read them all over and over and over, watch Youtube videos and check Web sites about it, do experiments and make art about it, etc, etc. Right now it's volcanoes. Today we made bread (fractions, basic chemistry). We also use some DVDs--Bill Nye, Signing Time, Schoolhouse Rock, that sort of thing. Normally we have lots of outdoor time as well, but I'm a wuss about winter, lol. I'm thinking of teaching dd to handsew or finger knit soon. She'd LOVE that. She was pretending to knit earlier today--knitting a door for ladybugs :D. I want to start lapbooking what we do (what she chooses to do in her unit studies). She'd like that. We made a giant digestive system for the wall when we studied that. We also go to museums & such--hitting the dinosaur museum again tomorrow.

[AngelaNYC]

My philosophy has always centered around unschooling, we just happen to use a curriculum. Let me explain...

 

I believe unschooling is allowing your child to learn how they like, what they like, and when they like. It sounds crazy when said like that, but kids are natural-born learners. They come out curious and when allowed to forge their own educational path, that curiosity (and determination, eagerness, and enthusiasm) doesn't go away. What kills a child's love of learning is coersion and demands. This usually starts taking it's toll in school at around 2nd-3rd grade.

 

We spent several years without any curriculum. I suggested to the kids one day to write down everything they love to do. The lists were awesome (they were 9 and 4 at the time). They included things like: gardening, going to the playground, readalouds, math workbooks, (educational) online quizzes, (educational) CD Roms, dancing, putting on plays, drawing, going to museums and the science center, science experiments, making dioramas, etc. Then I said we could do lots of those things every week, so maybe we can put some on a list for each day of the week.

 

They loved the idea of a schedule, so they created their own. We did reading, math, science, and art almost every day. We went on tons of field trips and did science experiments a couple times a week. They loved nature walks and I came to realize that the only books dd really liked and "got into" were classics. I didn't coax them into choosing academic things, they just did. It was amazing. I'd always had a bunch of fun learning materials around the house and the kids always gravitated toward them. They looked forward to "doing work" every day, because they were in control of their schedules. It didn't matter that things weren't structurally cohesive, the kids minds made them so. They made so many connections that everything they were learning just went together beautifully.

 

It reminded me of the time I gave each of my young dds $5 at the supermarket and told them to get anything (no really, anything) they wanted without going over. Oh what a fun game! Would you believe, instead of candy, chips, and garbage, they came back with fruit, crackers, cans of ravioli, yogurt, and dried fruit snacks? This is the foundation of what unschoolers believe. Have the trust that your kids really do know what they're doing. Parents complain that their kids would never make smart choices if left to their own - they'd be in front of the tv or video game all day. No they wouldn't. They do that now as a form of downtime and to relieve stress. Their brains need to be off for a while (especially kids who go to school). New unschoolers need to allow that downtime. It's called "deschooling". After a week or 2 (or maybe longer), kids regulate and start learning how to be themselves, think for themselves, and creativity and enthusiasm slowly creep back in. (this mainly applies to the child older than 7).

 

By the time dd was almost 12, she asked me to make a better schedule for her. She started feeling a bit aimless and wanted more structure. I told her I could try, but maybe we could look at some already-made schedules (i.e. different curricula) that might catch her eye. The one we stopped on was AmblesideOnline. It incorporated everything she loved and things she'd love to try. It had readalouds, nature study, classic books, and poetry. She loved the idea of copywork, poetry, narrations, dictation, artists & composers, and a book of centuries. She thought it was so fun. You see, unschooling is not about the tools you use. You can use no books or a full curriculum of textbooks and still be unschooling. It's all about what the child wants to learn and how they want to go about it.

 

So, we tried it. Ds (7 at the time) was all for it as well. He wanted to try it too. And this brings us to today. Dd tweaked the heck out of AO, but still holds tight to the Charlotte Mason method. Ds took to AO like a duck to water and we're currently half way through Year 2 and going strong.

 

The kids enjoy the schedules and know they have the choice to change things whenever they want. This hasn't happened much, though. We're done with the schedule in about 2 hours. The whole afternoon is spent being a kid, having fun, and playing. Maybe we'll do a field trip or homeschool group class, maybe we'll watch a movie or documentary, or maybe dd will get out her sewing machine and ds will create a new claymation movie.

 

It's all good. Learning is everywhere. They're both advanced, have lots of friends and fun, and are having the best childhoods they could possibly have, so this was definitely the right choice for us. Oh, and dd (13 now) was just accepted to one of NYC's specialized high schools (academically rigorous and known as the best performing arts high school in the country). Allowing her the freedom the choose her own path, has created a child who can choose wisely, think for herself, budget her time, and be independent and self-sufficient, not to mention incredibly happy.

 

I suggest you try it out. Remember to trust, encourage, have fun, be creative, and live in joy. He'll certainly be learning and I think you'll be amazed at the difference in him :)

Edited February 13, 2010 by Abkjw01
remembered something else!

[christine in al]

I wonder about paying someone to read. or any learning,

I find that when one of mine isn't reading as much as I want them too, it's because they aren't bored enough.

books can't always compete with screen time, so that gets cut out when there isn't enough reading going on.

 

other than that personal yellow flag in your post.

child-led sounds cool and I was interesed in reading your post and the answers you got. good for you for exploring what will work.

I'ts a good reminder for me iwth my second who is all about being in charge.

 

~chrsitine in al

[ondreeuh]

I am in no way an unschooler (my son has LDs and it just wouldn't work for him) but we do science as an interest-led subject. How that works for us is that we have a set time for science and we fill that block doing various sciencey things ;). We just finished a space explorer simulation program, and we do snap circuits, IMAX movies over Netflix, and we've raised ants ... soon we'll do butterflies, learn about magnetism, etc. He loves science and IMO it's the most fun to teach because there's no worry about standards or memorization.

[SeekingSimplicity]

We've done a lot of unschooling. Here lately we're doingmuch more structured school tho. But we're out in the country and we can't just get up and go to the library, or take a field trip or anything; those are things that take planning and have to be done on our one trip to town each, or every other, week. We don't have the ability to be very spontaneous, which is something I see as being necessary for radical unschooling. Plus if we try radical unschooling we do absolutely nothing, at all. 'Somewhat unschooling' is better for us. But I don't know, maybe I'm more eclectic than unschooly. Really, I go with what ever works at the moment LOL

 

Since we're stuck here at home, I keep plenty of curricula on hand for all subjects. We've only this year discovered classical education and added in lots of writing and latin. I try to make sure we cover all the subjects each week. If the kids don't want to do something I have planned, I'm usually OK with that as long as they have a valid alternative. Don't want to do WT? Want to write a letter to your uncle instead? Sure, go for it! You'd rather play Monopoly than do math? OK have fun.

 

 

We take big breaks throughout the year, so we do summer school. Well, also I like the idea of them not associating learning with school. Learning is something you do all the time, all day all year. During the summer, we drop the curricula and they have a 'shopping list' for the library. They have to get certain types of books- a biography or historical, poetry/plays/folk lore, science, math, art/music, and a couple books of their choice- the books can be about anything they want so long as they get ones on those subjects. That way everything is covered. If we had a bigger library, we could happily do this all year, but with our tiny library it wouldn't take long to exhaust all possible materials. LOL

[Mommyfaithe]

So, if you are brave enough to admit it on the WTM board...could you tell me a bit about what your day looks like? I've been reading a lot of books on unschooling lately. Since my ds8 refuses to do any schoolwork that looks anything like "school" (bookwork) we have had to change our style. Classical worked well for my oldest daughter and ds10 (who are both in ps now). Nothing is working for ds8. He simply is not ready for formal work. It's hard for me to wrap my brain around this, but I have read that MOST 8yo boys really are not ready for formal schoolwork that you would see in a public school. Crazy, but let's assume this is true. So, unschooling...child-led school...interest-driven learning, whatever you call it. How does it work and what does it look like at your house? Past few days as we have all been snowed in, I have seen some glimpses of how unschooling might work. We have played Bananagrams until our eyes were crossed...spelling, phonics, vocabulary? And ds8 LOVED it. I told ds8 I'd pay him $1 per chapter book...and he read 2 (yes 2) short chapter books last night before going to bed. :001_huh: And he could tell me about them. :001_huh: We made Valentine cards for relatives, baked cookies, read lots of books together, played with legos, played Leapster math games, etc. Not formal work, but he learned stuff. Anyway, this got too long, but I'm really wondering if this unschooling might work for this kid.

 

I am a part-time unschooler:

 

I am totally set on 3 r's....we use CLE for LA, Math and Reading instruction...BUT we are pretty free wheeling on everything else. My adult kids followed their interests and are very successful as adults...so far. I look to the bent of the child and try to go with how God made them, introducing them to Art, Music, and the beautiful things in llife. if i micro-manage...and believe me, I TRIED....we are all miserable and do not have time for LIFE, which is what i want my children to learn. That is why I Homeschool. I want my children to expoerience and love life, beauty and the Lord...(Not in that order.)

 

Unschooling works...NON_SCHOOLING...does not work.....there is definitely a difference.

 

~~Faithe

[LND1218]

You should read the Bluedorn's book Teaching the Trivium. They support delaying formal education. I haven't read it in ages, but they talk about delaying until they student is older. That may be the approach your child needs.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Steph

[MelanieM]

We're unschoolers here, too. (If we're defining unschooling as child-led learning and/or allowing kids the ultimate choice in what they learn.) I see my role as facilitator and helper to the kids, who are learning every minute of every day. I introduce them to things that I discover and think they might like, and they get to choose whether or not they do anything with it.

 

My daughter sounds like Angela's daughter (only younger!) in that she really enjoys a schedule and some structure. Because of that, we're pulling together a weekly/daily plan. She's going to have a checklist for each day that includes all the things she wants to cover, and we're pulling the resources together in a folder so everything is there waiting for her. (It's pretty much a simplified workbox approach.) But while it will look very school-ish in many ways, it is entirely in her hands as to whether or not she sticks with it or chooses to do something different. (We have folders for my son as well because he wants to be included, but again, all his choice whether or not he does anything with it.)

 

We do have curricula in the house for various subjects. This helps me come up with ideas, and helps meet the kids' desires for structured activities. Also, they really, really love workbooks and anything that looks remotely like school! My daughter will do that type of activity for hours every day. For example, I just got the SWO level C book for her this past week as she's been asking to work on spelling, and she did the first four lessons (about 20 pages) in two days. She was asking me to create "math sheets" for her constantly so I got Math Mammoth, and she went through the entire 2A level of materials in about a week. She's just that kind of kid, and always has been. (She was the toddler that sat still for an hour and a half while you read to her or coloured with her.)

 

We play a lot of games together, and both of my kids have a fabulous grasp of basic math concepts from this approach. In fact, I often wonder why people seem to be particularly stressed over math curriculum in the early years, as elementary math seems to be the easiest subject to learn organically. Math is *everywhere*. You'd almost have to go out of your way *not* to learn it!

 

So... lots of games, lots of books, lots of playing, lots of computer games and educational videos, lots of exploring the world, and lots of time talking together. I think that's the recipe for a great education. I think what makes it unschooling (as defined by child-led learning) or not is how much choice the child has in how it all looks and flows together.

Edited February 13, 2010 by MelanieM

[calandalsmom]

I am just back from the Unschoolers Winter Waterpark getawy in OH and let me say I am not an unschooler and neither is anyone else who unschools "part time" based on the hardcore attitudes of the philosophers I met there. At the same time I feel like there MUST be a spectrum and that in that spectrum I am closer to unschooling than to school at home. Except for I do use AAS.

[Mynyel]

Ok so I am intrigued...but stuck....how do you squeeze math in? If I left it up to my kids they would never (I mean never) do math.

i am not talking about lower level...that is easy enough to teach but what of Algebra, Trig....Calculus? My daughter wants to get into a science field but still doesn't like math. She needs it. Especially in college. So what do you do then? I just can't wrap my brain around it :)

[calandalsmom]

Ok so I am intrigued...but stuck....how do you squeeze math in? If I left it up to my kids they would never (I mean never) do math.

i am not talking about lower level...that is easy enough to teach but what of Algebra, Trig....Calculus? My daughter wants to get into a science field but still doesn't like math. She needs it. Especially in college. So what do you do then? I just can't wrap my brain around it :)

 

The unschoolers would say you dont do it. If they dont want to do it then I guess they dont really have the goals they claim to have (they would say).

 

The whole "they neeeed it for life" would be called fear based/ controlling parenting.

[SeekingSimplicity]

I am just back from the Unschoolers Winter Waterpark getawy in OH and let me say I am not an unschooler and neither is anyone else who unschools "part time" based on the hardcore attitudes of the philosophers I met there. At the same time I feel like there MUST be a spectrum and that in that spectrum I am closer to unschooling than to school at home. Except for I do use AAS.

 

I think there must be a spectrum too, and I have no problem with part time unschooling.

When I read John Holt books, I feel like he wasn't telling people to radical unschool so much as he was telling them to get away from assembly line education. Go out and do what works for you and works for your child, and give your child the freedom to learn. I don't think he could have been completely against 'doing school' at home if that's what works- after all, he recommended Calvert materials. Just my thoughts. :001_smile:

[calandalsmom]

John Taylor Gatto spoke and one of the things he said which went over the heads of the truely radical unschoolers was that civility was essential and crippling shyness should be dealt with b its well, crippling. But the unschoolers flt you should honor your child's shyness if that is how they are.

[Mynyel]

The whole "they neeeed it for life" would be called fear based/ controlling parenting.

 

:001_huh:

[MelanieM]

Ok so I am intrigued...but stuck....how do you squeeze math in? If I left it up to my kids they would never (I mean never) do math.

i am not talking about lower level...that is easy enough to teach but what of Algebra, Trig....Calculus? My daughter wants to get into a science field but still doesn't like math. She needs it. Especially in college. So what do you do then? I just can't wrap my brain around it :)

 

Does she understand that she needs it to get into a science field? I would be inclined to remind her of that pretty frequently, and then support her in finding an approach to learning those things that suits her.

 

You might also find some experts in the field she is interested in and have them explain to her how and why math is important to their daily work. Grasping how the abstract applies to the concrete can be a great motivator! And she might just discover that math isn't as (boring, dry, useless?) as she thinks!

 

That said, I would also be ok with not pushing it at a younger age, with the understanding that she could always catch up if she wants to once she is more mature and "gets it". It is possible to learn trig and calc as an older teen or adult, especially when you are highly motivated. (Don't you think you could learn trig now if you had to to get to a goal you really wanted to achieve?)

 

So in my mind, the real thing kids need to learn is *how* to learn, so that they can be prepared to pick things up that they really need when it suits them.

[Guest]

I was pleased to see another poster mention that math is one of the subjects people most often think unfitted for unschooling. Lots of people have grammar and math programs while finding unschooling fine for everything else. So I'd like to come out of the academic closet and admit that we have never used a specific, formal math curriculum until this year (8th: algebra).

 

I didn't start out planning this. But my daughter had some fairly extreme fine motor and vision problems as a young child that made it nearly impossible to make most of her work paper-based. And I was astonished at how quickly math becomes worksheet-based for very young kids, to the exclusion of anything else.

 

So I'd look through Miquon to get an idea of what skills the books focused on, but we approached them differently, though games -- lots and lots of them -- using real money, playing with pattern blocks and logic books (logic problems were like mind candy for this kid), math picture books, etc. Peggy Kaye's "Games for Math" was wonderful. For years one of my daugher's favorite games came from that book (Rainbow Math). My daughter loved the Sir Cumference books so much that we acted them out over and over. "Measuring Penny" was such a hit that she made her own book based on our dog. She loved making booklets recording personal information such as how high she could jump, how many pancakes she could eat at one sitting, how long it took her to read one page of a book, etc. We made LOTS of these.

 

When she was in about fourth grade I began using the Marilyn Burns math replacement units with her. These are not workbooks or textbooks but a series of investigations into concepts or skills; they're often hands-on, making or using manipulatives and then moving to paper. Some of these activities again were interesting enough that my daughter would ask to do them for fun. We mixed them up with books, math connected with science, board games and spatial and strategy games. Whenever we moved toward more conventional math books she was very capable of doing the pages but lost interest almost immediately and said she "hated" math. (In my insecurity I would give her assignments periodically to see whether she could do them.) But she continually asked to do math in other ways.

 

For junior high I hit on "Crossing the River with Dogs," a book based on different ways to approach math problems. My daughter actually took to this book like a duck to water and we went through nearly all of it in a year. This is the closest to conventional math we've ever come.

 

Now that she's older (13), I've talked with her about college math requirements, so she is pretty diligent about working through an algebra textbook at the moment. But I am truly surprised to see that all our messing around has put her way ahead of the game. Sometimes the textbook seems to mess up her earlier, more instinctual understanding. We read math books: "The Numbers Game" at the moment. And I'm a big fan of the original Math Circle -- NOT the Math Olympiad breeding ground it has turned into in most cases, but the exploratory math it was originally founded on: discussion-based, non-graded, very challenging conceptually.

 

Sorry for the LONG LONG post, but as textbook math is so entrenched in our understanding I thought someone out there might be interested to see ways to branch out with a child who resists conventional worksheets, etc.

[woolybear]

One thing I would add about unschooling, IMO, is that it is not only child led. Unschoolers often "strew" ideas,activities,books, throughout their house and their children's lives. Many unschoolers work hard to introduce all kinds of interesting things into their children's world.

 

Also, it doesn't necessarily not look like school, it just isn't forced if there is resistance.

 

I have had to adapt our hsing to be much more schoolish to meet one of my dc needs, interests, etc.

 

I often thought, "I didn't sign up for this." Lol. Perhaps like you, but going in the opposite direction. It has led me on quite a journey, including leading me to these boards and I have learned a lot.

 

I don't even consider us unschoolers anymore, or at the very least I find it unnecessary to label what we do. We are doing this now for a multitude of reasons.

 

Initially, I did not try to teach my ds to read. Then I tried, a little. When he didn't like it we stopped. By last year (he was 8) we were really working on it and it still wasn't clicking. For him, if I waited till he learned by osmosis (doubtful in his case) he would've been very sad, frustrated and defeated by the whole process. I do not think unschooling in reading would've been the best for him. He is just now (9 1/2+) FINALLY starting to get it. WOO hooo!

 

Although we definitely do school and not always when or if they want to, I do back off at times and do other things. This week has been one of those weeks. AND this is the week he started reading and his little brother started writing. So......I'm not sure what is best.

 

This post sounds a bit confused to me. Perhaps because of the week we've had. It really does make sense here.

 

I say we are Charlotte Mason hsers. Perhaps I should be saying Charlotte Mason unschoolers. I don't know. I've been reading LCC and that is sending me in another direction. Maybe we will become LCC CM unschoolers. Hee hee.

 

 

Hope something here is a little helpful.

 

Wooly

[LittleIzumi]

Does she understand that she needs it to get into a science field? I would be inclined to remind her of that pretty frequently, and then support her in finding an approach to learning those things that suits her.

 

You might also find some experts in the field she is interested in and have them explain to her how and why math is important to their daily work. Grasping how the abstract applies to the concrete can be a great motivator! And she might just discover that math isn't as (boring, dry, useless?) as she thinks!

 

That said, I would also be ok with not pushing it at a younger age, with the understanding that she could always catch up if she wants to once she is more mature and "gets it". It is possible to learn trig and calc as an older teen or adult, especially when you are highly motivated. (Don't you think you could learn trig now if you had to to get to a goal you really wanted to achieve?)

 

So in my mind, the real thing kids need to learn is *how* to learn, so that they can be prepared to pick things up that they really need when it suits them.

 

:iagree: She can choose--but she has to realize that if she chooses not to pursue the math, she will be choosing NOT to pursue that science field too! They go hand in hand. Hopefully that will help.

[homeschoolally]

You should read the Bluedorn's book Teaching the Trivium. They support delaying formal education. I haven't read it in ages, but they talk about delaying until they student is older. That may be the approach your child needs.

 

That was my first thought when I read your post. I remember feeling very relieved when I read what the Bluedorns had to say about delayed academics for boys. Some 8 year old boys just aren't ready yet. When my oldest was that age, we leaned toward an unschooling approach. What I found was that at around 10 he was ready for the structure. He caught up to his peers for the most part, and is ahead in some areas. Taking it easy at ages 8-9 didn't hurt us in the least. :001_smile:

[MelanieM]

One thing I would add about unschooling, IMO, is that it is not only child led. Unschoolers often "strew" ideas,activities,books, throughout their house and their children's lives. Many unschoolers work hard to introduce all kinds of interesting things into their children's world.

 

I often hear people talking about unschooling as if it means that the children need to be the ones to suggest every learning opportunity they are involved in in order for it to "count". But in my mind, a child-led education can easily stem from parental suggestion; I am simply one avenue through which my children might discover something fun and interesting to learn about. And just as I would share something with my husband if I felt it would be of interest to him, I do the same for my kids.

 

For example, this past week I was looking through a stack of magazines and initiated this conversation with my daughter:

 

Me: Hey, we have all these Zoobooks magazines here and haven't really looked at them too much. Would you like to read one together?

DD: Ok! Let's do elephants!

Me: Sounds good! Do you want to do a lapbook about elephants this week?

DD: Yeah!

Me: Ok. I'll print some stuff off tonight and we'll look at it tomorrow.

 

I consider this a part of her child-led education because of the choice she has over whether or not we do anything with it. If she said she wasn't interested, that would have been fine by me.

 

I really can't imagine living with my kids and never suggesting things to them based on my discoveries and what I think they might be interested in. I would think the vast majority of unschoolers do share interests and make suggestions to their children, as it seems nearly impossible that you could spend every day with someone and do otherwise.

[calandalsmom]

I did not hear the word strewing once in all the workshops I went to but i heard a lot about not limiting screentime and I heard the "honored guest" line at least twice.

 

Which is not to say that what Gatto calls "the guerrilla curriculum" isnt in existance in these homes but it was not the focus of teh talks or the conversations.

[momto2Cs]

I agreed with much of what Angela wrote! While I may have nice tidy organized schedules, booklists, etc., on my blog, it isn't always that simple. We tend to unschool more than not! I do read aloud, and we do math, and some language arts on a fairly regular basis, but I am seeing a shift, both in myself and my children. Tey still love to be read too, and they love classics, so that will continue. I am trying to find more engaging ways to teach math and language arts, through games, songs, rhymes, and so forth.

 

My kids are very curious about the world around them, and have a lot of interests, so having a direction to go isn't very difficult. For example, ds8.75 picked out a solar-powered building kit at a science museum today. When we got home, he sat down, built the motor, and then built all 6 different models. Now he wants to learn more about how solar power works. We had a recent dr's appointment for nasty infectious colds, and when we got home, the kids had a zillion questions about ear canals, eyes, and more, so we have started a study of the human body. We got a copy of this great book, and they are really excited that they get to put together a human body made of paper!

 

We currently fall somewhere between Charlotte Mason and unschooling. Our lessons, when we're that organized, tend to be short. We read good books. Neither child does a lot of writing, but I think that's because they're not ready (CM mentioned around 10 or 11 for more writing, and we're not there yet).

 

I am learning to trust that my children will learn regardless of sitting down for lessons everyday!

[calandalsmom]

My ds and I found that book to be NOT easy but we are not crafty.

[Sue G in PA]

Thanks everyone. I am feeling encouraged. I must keep reminding myself that this is the same kid who learned to read on his own...b/c he wanted to. He is very creative, a wonderful artist, can design the most complicated track/road systems (very visual/spacial), remember almost every line from all his favorite movies and in what scene certain music is played, etc. He is very bright...just not motivated to do formal schoolwork. I'm reading more of Holt's books and others on unschooling and feeling very good about this. I plan to ask ds8 what HE wants to learn and focus on that. I will still try math everyday but do more hands-on math activities and games. He does love games. He catches on to concepts rather quickly and becomes bored if it is too redundant. So, I did figure out a while back that he doesn't like a ton of review. Once it clicks, it is there for good with him. Going to put more of our arts and crafts supplies on lower shelves as well as games, playdoh, etc.for them to peruse at their leasure. I do want to have some schedule in place, b/c if not the kid will opt to watch tv all day.

[lovemykids]

I wouldn’t say I am an unschooler. (maybe a classical unschooler, which I feel has a very different definition) But I do I swing back and forth between scheduled, rigorous, “sit down and get to work” days, and unscheduled, “follow our hearts and be creative”, or “just read a lot” type of days. As a result, sometimes we drop very scheduled plans and opt for just reading books out of order instead! The kids love to do their own arts and crafts, and they are very creative.

 

My oldest dd has always been largely “interest led” in science, although I have made lesson plans, used curricula, etc. For the most part, we never actually completed any given curriculum or schedule. And many times, I just simply let her take the reigns and create her own science plans. It’s that time of year again, and we are dropping everything in science, (except our newest side venture, Story of Science w/ a science kit) and dd is going to be interest led again and study through books we own and the library. She is uninterested in all of the science curriculums that I have picked out for next year, so we may simply buy Carbon Chemistry, TOPS, and let her unschool herself through science for the rest of the year (this year and next year). It’s amazing how much she picks up this way, and if it brings back her love of science, I’m all for unschooling this portion of our studies! When she reaches high school, she will have to choose which path to take if she still wants a career in science. (Possibly buckling down and completing a curriculum.) We’ll see, things always change.

 

I use curricula in a relaxed way. Sometimes I use several programs at once, and skip around in various TMs, half a year we may do a little moreAO, another half we can be found doing something else entirely. I may start with a very detailed lesson plan for the year, and a list of curricula, but that quickly changes and we end up going with the flow. Only to find later that I am, once again, making detailed daily lesson plans.

 

I don’t think we have ever used the same grammar program for two subsequent years; we have tried different things. Some years we have done that with math (not recommended) ;)and other subjects as well. I use at least three or four writing programs at the moment, while I try and assess what works for us. (I think they all are working for us, so it’s even more confusing. Ha!) We came from almost no writing program to this, (well I call WTM and CM writing a plan, and that is what we actually used previously) but I am all about trying new things and switching things up so as to avoid monotony, and also to teach to different learning styles, or just to have the child gain the experience of a different method. So, I guess I see the value in letting up from a rigid schedule or even the same program, and relaxing a bit here and there. Children do learn in an unstructured environment. I have seen it with my own eyes! It can work.

 

I also partially unschool my son; we swing back and forth as well. Some days all we do is math and then I let him have free reading. Other days we work on Spanish, handwriting, phonics, science, Bible, etc., etc. With my youngest dd, I feel like she is unschooled because she has so much free time. She completes all of her assignments very quickly and then she has tons of time to do what most unschoolers do; play games, play with her siblings, do arts and crafts and read a multitude of books! She is the easiest to homeschool by far, she loves worksheets and curricula, and she always asks for the next thing (after finishing most of her work). The other two are very anti-worksheet type of kids and they would easily fall into the unschooled type of kid category. (if that was a category)

 

I hope this made sense, I am tired and I have been stressed and depressed lately. (death in the family) I do not feel like I have been explaining myself all that well lately, but I wanted to comment on this.

 

:)

[2squared]

We are very relaxed and very CM at the same time. The 3rs are structured, but that's it. I am too Type A to be completely relaxed! The rest of it I direct, but the kids don't realize that I'm pulling strings in the background. I do control access to materials. Here are some of the things I do:

*I don't "teach" academics before K, and my K kids have 10-20 min of phonics or math a day. If my kids pick up phonics before K, great. If not, great.

*We live on 5 acres in the country, so we do a ton of nature study and exploration.

*I get books from the library and strew them around the house. We just covered Abraham Lincoln, but I'm sure none of the kids realize it was schoolwork.

*I don't buy a lot of books since I believe less-is-more, but the few reference titles we have are appealing for the kids. My 5yo loves reading DK Eye Wonder books.

*I add handicrafts to their lives - jewelry making, cooking, knitting, woodworking, etc - and they don't see it as schoolwork.

*I limit TV and other screen time so they have plenty of time to be bored. I also have trained them to enjoy playing outside for hours every day - even in the MN winters.

*I play classical music while we do chores.

*I play religious music (catchat CDs are awesome if you are Catholic), poetry, and audio books while we run errands.

*I just started picking read alouds that can be followed up by a movie version (The Tale of Desperaux (sp?), How to Eat Fried Worms, etc).

*I talk, talk, talk with my kids and try to help them answer every question that comes up.

*We have family game nights for the older two, and we have introduced strategy games which are very important for science and math.

 

On my good days, I see how much can be learned just by being in the moment with my kids and responding to them. On the other days (when I'm not being the mom I think I should be), I panic and start dreaming of more structured learning materials.

 

Thanks for asking this question. It has been therapeutic to remind myself of how I want my kids to learn. Sometimes this board sure can push me in another direction!

[Faithr]

Grrr. I get so frustrated with radical unschoolers and their ideology! I would never have made it through an unschooling conference! I'd be too irritated with the one-size fits all families attitude that is pushed. I think radical unschoolers have twisted what John Holt had to say. I realized this one time when I was reading a little vignette about how Nancy Wallace (one of the pioneers of unschooling) was embarrassed because John Holt was visiting them and her daughter was crying over the Algebra the mom had insisted she learn because if her dd ever wanted to go to college she'd need to know it. Here was Holt the great reformer and father of unschooling and he would see how Nancy was such a failure at being the perfect unschooling mother. When Holt realized the situation what did he do???? Did he lecture Nancy on how she should let her dd choose and that it wasn't meaningful and real education because Nancy was forcing it on her dd? To the point of tears??? No he did not. Instead he sat down with the daughter and tutored her in the Algebra she was having trouble with!!!!!!

 

Pat Farenga who took over the reins from Holt when he died has defined unschooling as: giving your child as much freedom in learning as the parent is comfortable with! Yes, both Holt and Farenga think parental input is important. It is not about being a slave to your child's autonomy to the point of defying common sense which is often what radical unschoolers seem to say.

 

So I definitely think learning is a spectrum and that at one end you have formal learning and at the other end you have folks who teach themselves but in between there are all sorts of variations on a theme. The important thing is to recognize that children learn naturally, that the best motivation is when it comes authentically from the child and that children do not have to learn in lockstep with what some institutional mindset has arbitrarily commanded. You are not 'behind' if your child isn't reading by first grade, etc. There can be lots more freedom in an excellent education than what the school system imagines. But it doesn't mean that the parent can't ever insist on something for the child's own good.

 

I never understand why, if education is just supposed to be part of life and not artificially separated from it, as radical unschoolers insist, why 'safety' issues are okay for parents to insist on but for some reason education is different and parents can't insist on that. To me that is artificially separating education from life!

 

Unschooling principles have greatly influenced the way we homeschool. But because of the radical unschoolers insistence on owning the definition of it and making sure there are those who are 'in' and those who are 'out', I instead say I'm relaxed, or unschoolish or unschooling-influenced.

[Susie in CA]

Grrr. I get so frustrated with radical unschoolers and their ideology! I would never have made it through an unschooling conference! I'd be too irritated with the one-size fits all families attitude that is pushed. I think radical unschoolers have twisted what John Holt had to say.

 

 

 

I am so glad you posted this. I have been feeling like this for a long time! It is the radical unschoolers who make me avoid the term unschooling altogether even though we do many unschoolish things. The things is we learn on purpose and we learn in real life. I really don't think one has to exclude the other at all. Listening to the people I know (IRL) who call themselves unschoolers, though, clearly they are right and everyone who has any requirements just doesn't know any better.

 

Susie

[MelanieM]

So I definitely think learning is a spectrum and that at one end you have formal learning and at the other end you have folks who teach themselves but in between there are all sorts of variations on a theme. The important thing is to recognize that children learn naturally, that the best motivation is when it comes authentically from the child and that children do not have to learn in lockstep with what some institutional mindset has arbitrarily commanded. You are not 'behind' if your child isn't reading by first grade, etc. There can be lots more freedom in an excellent education than what the school system imagines. But it doesn't mean that the parent can't ever insist on something for the child's own good.

 

Very well said!

 

Unschooling principles have greatly influenced the way we homeschool. But because of the radical unschoolers insistence on owning the definition of it and making sure there are those who are 'in' and those who are 'out', I instead say I'm relaxed, or unschoolish or unschooling-influenced.

 

Yes, there seems to be such a mis-understanding of what unschooling is (and I don't attribute that all to the radical unschoolers, for what it's worth) that the term no longer refers to what it originally meant. I tend to say we're eclectic or relaxed as well. Plus, it has less negative connotations as it isn't 'un' anything. I also like the term life learners, for similar reasons.

[woolybear]

I like to differentiate between unschoolers and radical unschoolers. In the end though, the arguments surrounding semantics can just inhibit what we can do rather than enable us to follow various paths. I find it best to try not to label, but I guess it does help to identify somewhat what we do.

 

One of the things I found frustrating in the radical unschooling world was this fantasy vision of all these really happy families, joyously just living their lives. When I attempted RU, I kept saying, "Where's the joy?" Ds just didn't love this approach and I also do not think it is for everyone.

 

There is so much more to say on this subject, but I will sum up my comments. There is a lot we can all take away from unschooling (though not necessarily radical unschooling--not bashing RU here, by the way).I have seen it work wonderfully well in many homes and seen it done in many different ways.

 

Although we have been greatly influenced by unschooling and it continues to circle in and out of our lives, we are much more peaceful and happy here having moved away from it.

 

Woolybear

[Faithr]

Woolybear, that reminds me of someone I know who tried radical unschooling for a year and said what they wound up with was radical boredom! When I tried radical unschooling (twice for almost a year each time) my kids were sooooo happy to get back into a more schoolish routine. They ate it up!

[lovemykids]

Originally Posted by Faithr

So I definitely think learning is a spectrum and that at one end you have formal learning and at the other end you have folks who teach themselves but in between there are all sorts of variations on a theme. The important thing is to recognize that children learn naturally, that the best motivation is when it comes authentically from the child and that children do not have to learn in lockstep with what some institutional mindset has arbitrarily commanded. You are not 'behind' if your child isn't reading by first grade, etc. There can be lots more freedom in an excellent education than what the school system imagines. But it doesn't mean that the parent can't ever insist on something for the child's own good.

 

Very well said!

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, there seems to be such a mis-understanding of what unschooling is (and I don't attribute that all to the radical unschoolers, for what it's worth) that the term no longer refers to what it originally meant. I tend to say we're eclectic or relaxed as well. Plus, it has less negative connotations as it isn't 'un' anything. I also like the term life learners, for similar reasons.

:iagree:

 

When I get together with the local unschoolers, I feel very old school and a little like I am doing something unnecessary by schooling my children at home. And sometimes when I come here, I feel like I should hang my head in shame if we are not always completing all of our studies, or if we don't have a set schedule.

 

Thankfully, there is a middle ground and I feel like we are on it. I am pretty happy with the progress we make and I feel like my children are being challenged, yet they also have time to enjoy themselves.

 

Oh, not that anyone actually cares, but we do finish things like spelling, writing, and math. (the important things ;) And yes, we do grammar!

PS doesn’t actually finish a lot of their curricula either, so I still feel like my children are getting a better education at this point. As we reach high school, we could become either more scheduled, or possibly just more organized. If my oldest dd wishes to design her own science curriculum, she can, but it will have to be documented and mostly finished etc. I doubt she will want to do that, but it’s a possibility.

Edited February 15, 2010 by lovemykids

[justamouse]

I am loving this thread! Just want I needed. I've been...changing in my thinking concerning homeschooling. I happened on some fantastic homeschooling books that bent toward unschooling with focus and I realized we'd all be a lot happier if I started to implement it. It's been hard, I'm a total Type A and FEAR ruining my kids. But the more I let the leash go, the more they surprise me with the cool stuff they come up with. And they're learning-they just don't realize it! How awesome is that? :001_smile:

[lovemykids]

Recently I planned an earth science program for all of us, nothing fancy, I simply threw together a bunch of books we already owned and checked out a few project books from the library. We all sat down to do it, but instead of reading the day’s lesson my children started telling me all about the topic. I was amazed at how much they knew. I began quizzing them using various books. Well they “tested out†of our earth-space study. They would have been bored to tears if I made them complete an entire study….we still plan to do some fun projects over the summer and go to the planetarium again, but there is no need to sit around and relearn all of that information. :) They learned most of it by themselves, because they wanted to. :D

[sweetbaby]

We are relaxed homeschoolers which is somewhat a form of unschooling. Although, it's interest led learning from children, relaxed homeschooling is more parent guided, if that makes sense. Based on each child's educational needs, I set specific goals for the week, year, etc and I choose curriculum or learning tools to assist in achieving those goals.

 

I use curriculum for most subjects but history and science are interest led. Each home is different but the key is not becoming a slave to curriculum....schedules and what not. We don't test but use narration and other means of assessment. We don't follow a structured schedule of events. Learning is a lifestyle so we are always bombarded with opportunities to learn whether it's by helping mom calculate measurements for a recipe, calculate footage for new flooring, comparison price shop on a grocery store trip, playing educational games, viewing educational videos, observing nature, exploring on a field trip, or even a trip to the dentist or doctor's office. You can be a Traditional, Classical or Charlotte Mason homeschooler at the same time. Those are approaches. Unschooling or Relaxed Homeschooling is a mindset so you are simply changing the way that you think about "school".:)

[Aludlam]

I'm LOVING this thread as well! We are leaning towards some more relaxed studies as well. What are the best hands on things you've tried (ie. games, manipulatives, videos)? We need some more "learning is fun things!"

 

Angela

[calandalsmom]

 

One of the things I found frustrating in the radical unschooling world was this fantasy vision of all these really happy families, joyously just living their lives. When I attempted RU, I kept saying, "Where's the joy?" Ds just didn't love this approach and I also do not think it is for everyone.

 

There is so much more to say on this subject, but I will sum up my comments. There is a lot we can all take away from unschooling (though not necessarily radical unschooling--not bashing RU here, by the way).I have seen it work wonderfully well in many homes and seen it done in many different ways.

 

Although we have been greatly influenced by unschooling and it continues to circle in and out of our lives, we are much more peaceful and happy here having moved away from it.

 

Woolybear

 

 

Thankyou for saying this. I was really insulted by one of the speakers at the UWWG. She and her husband said two things: one was if the dishes left all over the house by the kids bother me "you have two hands, you pick them up." and the other was that "if you choose to live with conflict that's your choice." (wrt housekeeping AND your kids behavior).

 

The third thing that bugged the heck out of me was "expectations lead to resentment." I imagine you could do a separate thread on expectations and lack of and what either too much or to little can lead to.

 

I definitely get a fantasyland vibe off some of what RUs say.

[Faithr]

Ha! That line about choosing to live in conflict is too funny. I just read in a book a line concerning that. It said that living with others always involves some conflict. The only people who don't have conflict are in the cemetery! It is la-la land to think conflict should never happen. Unnecessary conflict, yes, but regular, every day, getting-along-with-consideration-for-others-conflict, that you need to learn to constructively deal with. And that is an invaluable life lesson!

 

And the expectations leads to resentment line of thinking is just so off. Don't they have expectations that their children will grow up to be loving, capable, responsible human beings? To have less than that is doing your children a real disservice.

 

I do think that many RU's are walking wounded who were so beaten down by the school system or overbearing parents that they can not emotionally or intellectually distinguish between authoritarianism and authoritativeness. One is being a tyrant and the other is responsibly using one's authority as a leader. Big difference. Good parents try to do the latter and avoid becoming the former.

[AngelBee]

Grrr. I get so frustrated with radical unschoolers and their ideology! .

 

This is why I stopped identifying as an unschooler.

 

Anything I did that wasn't ok with the movement was bashed on and discounted. I hated feeling like I had to prove to others that I was "unschooly" enough.

 

Our approach is very unschool-y. But due to each child's strengths and weaknesses, we have added some curriculums and structure. The kids are part of that decision.

[lovemykids]

We are relaxed homeschoolers which is somewhat a form of unschooling. Although, it's interest led learning from children, relaxed homeschooling is more parent guided, if that makes sense. Based on each child's educational needs, I set specific goals for the week, year, etc and I choose curriculum or learning tools to assist in achieving those goals.

 

I use curriculum for most subjects but history and science are interest led. Each home is different but the key is not becoming a slave to curriculum....schedules and what not. We don't test but use narration and other means of assessment. We don't follow a structured schedule of events. Learning is a lifestyle so we are always bombarded with opportunities to learn whether it's by helping mom calculate measurements for a recipe, calculate footage for new flooring, comparison price shop on a grocery store trip, playing educational games, viewing educational videos, observing nature, exploring on a field trip, or even a trip to the dentist or doctor's office. You can be a Traditional, Classical or Charlotte Mason homeschooler at the same time. Those are approaches. Unschooling or Relaxed Homeschooling is a mindset so you are simply changing the way that you think about "school".:)

:iagree:

 

Hey, there is a website! I read that book years ago, it really resonated with me. The Relaxed Homeschool. :) I like the word, relax, LOL. I tend to stress out very easily if I get too much on my plate. I constantly have to remind myself to relax. ;) Curriculum is a tool, that's all.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

I happened on some fantastic homeschooling books that bent toward unschooling with focus

 

Will you share the titles? Pretty please? :)

[woolybear]

This is why I stopped identifying as an unschooler.

 

Anything I did that wasn't ok with the movement was bashed on and discounted. I hated feeling like I had to prove to others that I was "unschooly" enough.

 

 

 

I think sometimes I even made choices that I might not otherwise have made trying to fit into an unschooly mode. There was always this sense of being pc in the unschooling world. Ugh.

[calandalsmom]

I think sometimes I even made choices that I might not otherwise have made trying to fit into an unschooly mode. There was always this sense of being pc in the unschooling world. Ugh.

 

At one point this weekend I heard myself say "I mean, we dont have rules, exactly." But it was like they could smell my inner control freak.;) Somehow they just knew.

[Donna T.]

Hi, Sue! I haven't read all of the responses to your post yet, but I did search the thread to see if Teaching the Trivium had been recommended to you and found that it had. I just love what the Bluedorns have written. I thought I'd post the link to their article Ten Things to Do Before Age Ten. The book gives lots more info. but this is a good start to learning about their methods.

 

 

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/articles/ten_to_do_before_ten.php

[angela in ohio]

I do think that many RU's are walking wounded who were so beaten down by the school system or overbearing parents that they can not emotionally or intellectually distinguish between authoritarianism and authoritativeness. One is being a tyrant and the other is responsibly using one's authority as a leader. Big difference. Good parents try to do the latter and avoid becoming the former.

 

That has been my experience with unschoolers IRL.

[kdeno]

:001_smile:

At one point this weekend I heard myself say "I mean, we dont have rules, exactly." But it was like they could smell my inner control freak.;) Somehow they just knew.

:smilielol5:

[forevergrace]

My take is that it is a plain disservice to the child, not to teach them and provide them tools to succeed successfully in this world. It is all very nice to let a child tell you when and what they want to learn, but it just does not cut it in the real world. I love my dh, and want her to have a chance. I won't always be there to take care of her.

 

It really does not matter what career she decides to do, just that she has the chance to do it. I mean, don't we all want our children to be able to go out in the big, blue, world and not feel less then, because they can't keep up w/the kid that did go to that lousy PS? Do I want my child to have to rely on welfare, because it is easier to say; "I just don't feel like doing it today?"

 

Honesty, respect for herself and others is what I want her to accomplish. To stand up and be accounted for when she fails, and to bask in triumph when she succeeds. This only comes from discipline, not beatings or abuse (or lack of direction). But realization that order does exist, and one can accomplish anything given the right tools and willingness to do the hard work. Whether that goal is of becoming a doctor, lawyer, dentist, teacher, therapist, social worker, counselor, etc. Yes, it all takes work.

 

Why should I not help her from the start? That is the very essence of what I found in the WTM, and most of all the people that I know that have succeeded in this very hard and difficult world. My job is to help her in every way possible. Could I just allow her to dictate to me what she would like to learn today? Absolutely not, I'm the MOM, and guess what? She knows she's safe, she knows without a doubt she's loved! Most important of all: she doesn't have to be an adult just yet (plenty of time for that later).

Forevergrace

[MelanieM]

Forevergrace, your post works under the false assumption that no one ever wants to "work hard" or learns anything of value unless it is imposed on them (however good the intentions or kindly the approach) by someone else. Many, many people have found this not to be the case in their families. I know lots of children that are thriving and learning a lot of very useful, practical skills through an interest-led education. I know lots of adults doing it, too.

 

I don't think unschooling is the right approach for everyone, and I think it's actually harder (for me) than a structured school situation in many ways. (I'm glad my kids ask for "school-y" stuff and schedules! Planning is way easier than following their interests on a whim!) Just as a classical education isn't for everyone, or a unit-study based education isn't for everyone, or... But the whole point of homeschooling is that we get to come up with this awesome custom-tailored education plan for each person in the family -- including the parents! -- and I think that's a fabulous thing, whatever path a family chooses to take.