Sigh* Ignore my post below. Are Americans hated in other countries?

[pqr]

Justifying and saying "there are reasons for this that we can work on" are two different things. Saying one has nothing to do with the other IS to ignore history and sociology. It is saying "this is a character issue, it has nothing to do with me, it's not a problem I need to worry about or fix."

Of course there are reasons and we can work on them. Who ever said that we should not work on them? I simply refused to tie race to crime.

[Melissa in Australia]

BTW, pqr, although I'm not going to directly address each point (because too much of it has nothing to do with the rest of the thread), I will say that your post #108 of this thread is a classic example of why many people in the rest of the world find Americans arrogant and ethnocentric. It also classic example of someone who (perhaps willfully?) misunderstands of the social structure within the US and real history of the US.

 

I also think you win the ultimate Godwin for putting a fellow forumite in the company of Mao Tse Tung, Hitler, Mussolini and Lenin while placing yourself in the company of Ghandi (laughable), Orwell, Malcom X (hilarious) and JFK.

:iagree: and can I say Hear !Hear!

[Jenny in Atl]

I'm not so sure that saying that people in other countries don't like "Americans as a whole, but like us individually" is such a good thing.

 

I also don't think it's such a good thing that they "like" us because we spend money in their country.

 

My grandfather, who is a raging racist, hates black people, but when he's face-to-face with a black person he will admit that "that" black person is ok. So, even though he knows and likes a lot of black people as individuals, he still is a horrible racist.

 

So, sure, other people from other countries can say, "Oh, now that I've met you, I like you," but at the same time they can still have prejudices and racism against Americans.

 

And liking Americans because they spend money could mean they're puting on their game face and are being nice to the money. Sort of like when you're extra nice to your boss (who is a real jerk) because you need the job, even if you can't stand the boss.

 

Anyway--I have no idea what people from other nations think about Americans. But the argument that "they like us when they get to know individuals" or "they like us sooo much because we're giving them money" doesn't necessarily equate to them really liking us.

 

So, how many Americans say they ((love)) Pakistanis? Iraqis? Iranians, Venezuelans, I could go on & on... I'm sure there are just as many folks from the US who dislike or say they dislike "groups" of people, given their country of origin, but then find individuals from these countries to be copacetic.

 

When in a group, people are faceless, but one on one, that's a whole other matter.

[Mrs Mungo]

No more than conversations that I have had all over the world.

 

But I'm not dismissing your claims, you are the one who has repeatedly dismissed mine. I'm sure your experience is valid. My experience is valid. You claim I cannot be the "voice of the military." I claim the military is a diverse group of individuals and that there is no "voice of the military," anymore than there is a "voice of ex-pats" or "voice of America."

 

 

Give me something in the form of a poll, an internal study, something.

How about something different.

 

Countries that allow homosexuals to serve in the military: Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, the Philippines, Romania, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and Uruguay.

 

Now, none of THOSE armies have suddenly fallen apart. There was an article posted earlier about the policy change in the UK (which was rather recent), did you read it? Members of our military are *frequently* joined up on exercises (tactical and training) with soldiers from those countries. How is that currently being handled?

 

Countries that don't allow it? Cuba, China, Egypt, Greece, Iran, Jamaica, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Singapore, South Korea, Syria, Turkey, the US, Venezuela and Yemen. Errr...granted, in some of those countries male-male sex is sort of a cultural norm but that doesn't technically make them homosexuals, I guess?

 

Russia is a special case, "well adjusted" homosexuals are allowed to serve, those with identity problems are not. I don't know how this is determined.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[Rosie_0801]

...how big of a sampling we're talking about? Across how many branches of the armed forces?

 

My husband's experience has been somewhat different. (There's an Aussie contingent here (OK base), working with a particular subset of the Air Force, and folks in this field work closely with the Australians).

 

Would you mind elaborating?

 

No, I wouldn't. :) I was basing my comment on a few comments I have heard, which provides information, but not in a very scientific way. Even if I had a survey form collected from each member of the Australian armed forces, I still wouldn't. There are certain subjects I prefer not to discuss with Americans :)

 

Rosie

[Melissa in Australia]

No, I wouldn't. :) I was basing my comment on a few comments I have heard, which provides information, but not in a very scientific way. Even if I had a survey form collected from each member of the Australian armed forces, I still wouldn't. There are certain subjects I prefer not to discuss with Americans :)

 

Rosie

:lol::lol:

[pqr]

But I'm not dismissing your claims, you are the one who has repeatedly dismissed mine. I'm sure your experience is valid. My experience is valid. You claim I cannot be the "voice of the military." I claim the military is a diverse group of individuals and that there is no "voice of the military," anymore than there is a "voice of ex-pats" or "voice of America."

 

 

 

But the military has, in poll after poll, spoken. You will not accept that. I will.

 

 

How about something different.

 

Countries that allow homosexuals to serve in the military: Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, the Philippines, Romania, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and Uruguay.

 

Now, none of THOSE armies have suddenly fallen apart. There was an article posted earlier about the policy change in the UK (which was rather recent), did you read it? Members of our military are *frequently* joined up on exercises (tactical and training) with soldiers from those countries. How is that currently being handled?

 

I do not think I claimed that the military would fall apart. If I did please quote me. I simply said that this does not seem to be the wish of most of the military and that there is no need. It seems that we might lose more servicemen than we would gain and I do not see that this is the time (the US being involved in a war) to impose a divisive change.

 

As to how joint exercises are handled, I do not know.

 

It is late in Europe. I bid you a Good Night. I am certain this will continue on the morrow.

Edited January 8, 2010 by pqr

[KJB]

Is this true? Heather disagreed in her response - saying she does use Malaysian hospitals. When we were in Oman, the US embassy sent their staff home to give birth. There was no basis for this. Hospitals in Oman were excellent (complete placenta previa, emergency C-section birth here, so I have had experience). And the US was the only country I knew of who did this.

 

Wealthy Omanis who needed specialised care often went to Malaysia or Thailand (due to cost and treatment options). These countries have excellent reputations for medical care (as does Singapore).

 

US embassies in less developed countries either "stork nest" to military facilities or send their people home.

 

Most smaller embassies are staffed by tiny health care units. The medical attache has an interest in sending home complicated cases including pregnancies.

 

The standards of care in different countries are often very very different. In some countries, having all patients naked is standard. In some places, pain meds for births are limited or non-existent. In some places, medical staff don't routinely wear gloves when treating patients or handling blood products for a few examples.

 

Care may be excellent in terms of outcomes, but standards and cultural expectations often differ so much that sending people home (or choosing to go home) is the best option.

 

And, as an example of someone who probably could have been treated a lot closer to home:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1922205320070519

Edited January 8, 2010 by KJB

[Mrs Mungo]

But the military has, in poll after poll, spoken. You will not accept that. I will.

 

No, a SEGMENT of the military has (the poll you claim as evidence), the segment that subscribes to The Army Times (the website is the military times, it encompasses info from its newspapers: The Army Times, The Air Force Times, The Navy Times, etc, the poll was among Army Times subscribers, I believe) and participates in such polls. Such polls are never considered scientific as those who answer the polls are self-selecting.

 

I do not think I claimed that the military would fall apart. If I did please quote me. I simply said that this does not seem to be the wish of most of the military and that there is no need. It seems that we might lose more servicemen than we would gain and I do not see that this is the time (the US being involved in a war) to impose a divisive change.

This is pure supposition, either way. We don't know if we would ACTUALLY lose service-members or if service-members are just talking smack.

 

To quote from the article regarding the poll regarding the number of people who said they would leave the service:

“That’s a smaller number of career officers than who in the 1970s said they would leave the service if women were admitted to West Point,” Segal said. “They were expressing a strongly held attitude. But when women were admitted to West Point, there was not anything near that kind of exodus from the service.”

As to how joint exercises are handled, I do not know.

I think we need to find out because it directly pertains to how this can possibly be handled. Edited January 8, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[lovemyboys]

So, how many Americans say they ((love)) Pakistanis? Iraqis? Iranians, Venezuelans, I could go on & on... I'm sure there are just as many folks from the US who dislike or say they dislike "groups" of people, given their country of origin, but then find individuals from these countries to be copacetic.

 

When in a group, people are faceless, but one on one, that's a whole other matter.

 

Good point.

 

Another thing that makes the US so different from many other countries is that the US is a melting pot due to its origins. It is a mixture of many different cultures and nationalities that work together to make this system work. Most other countries have their original population and culture that dominate in the political, social and business of that society. Here it's pretty much open. And most of those looking for opportunities know it.

 

That's the mirror that other people see and we often miss.

 

It's in vogue to "dis" the US, in some countries it has been for a long time. Doesn't mean we have to fall for it. Or let it determine our foreign policy.

 

Who's on the ground within hours, no matter when, no matter which country, if a natural disaster strikes?

[KJB]

Actually, it's AMERICANS who now have to go overseas for surgeries, because they don't have adequate coverage here.

 

Well, as I wrote, when the *wealthy* of the world get sick....

[asta]

It seems that we might lose more servicemen than we would gain and I do not see that this is the time (the US being involved in a war) to impose a divisive change.

 

 

Because, as we all know, only the US is involved in a war.

 

Go to bed pqr.

 

 

a

[Impish]

While obviously these people who accost you are being clumsy in their attempt to communicate....I do feel its important that Americans realise that they are voting not just for themselves, and that their votes impact teh whole world. America happens to be top of the heap right now....it will pass, but for now they are the most powerful world power and that does affect the whole world. They cant afford to think only of their own needs if they want to maintain so much power over everyone else's.

We can be patriotic about our own country at the same time as realising all people everywhere are very similar in our emotions, our passions, our love for our children, our care for our families etc...we are all the same. I personally feel everyone should have a mind for the whole world nowadays, not just their own country, when they vote or do anything that has impact on other countries.

One of the reasons Americans are disliked at times is because of a perceived attitude that Americans feel they are somehow more special than any other country, and more righteous. I suspect that is changing though.

I've witnessed such behaviour first hand. Has no change in how I feel about 'Americans' but rather the individual.

[lovemyboys]

I bring up his service, in this case, because it's relevant. I bring it up at other times because there are too many on this board who say "IF you were PATRIOTIC you would believe the way I do..." or other such tripe.

You're all too quick to dismiss the opinions of military wives and prior-service females here. It really smacks of patting us good little girls on the head and telling us you know better.

 

 

 

Actually, Mrs. Mungo, I have to disagree here. I'm not hearing that in his posts. It's good to have a male perspective and one associated with the military here. It sounds like you have spirited dinner table discussions with your dh and his peers. And you bring that perspective here.

 

However, it's not the only military perspective nor the definitive one.

[Mrs Mungo]

Actually, Mrs. Mungo, I have to disagree here. I'm not hearing that in his posts. It's good to have a male perspective and one associated with the military here. It sounds like you have spirited dinner table discussions with your dh and his peers. And you bring that perspective here.

 

However, it's not the only military perspective nor the definitive one.

 

I agree and I never said that it was. More clarification here:

But I'm not dismissing your claims, you are the one who has repeatedly dismissed mine. I'm sure your experience is valid. My experience is valid. You claim I cannot be the "voice of the military." I claim the military is a diverse group of individuals and that there is no "voice of the military," anymore than there is a "voice of ex-pats" or "voice of America."

[IsabelC]

Perhaps you should think on the words of one of our Founding Fathers.

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither- Ben Franklin

Fantastic quotes is probably my favorite about the US. I might be forced to teach my kids all those famous speeches "give me liberty or give me death" and "Four score and seven years ago our forefathers" and "I have a dream..." etc etc etc because our history are totally lacking in inspiring rhetoric.

 

 

 

 

As for gays in the military, I just can't quite make up my mind on that one. And then I'm wondering if they have straight men's showers and gay men's showers, where are the bi recruits going to shower? All on their lonesome? Or maybe the gay men could shower with the straight women and the lesbians could shower with the straight men? The mind boggles.

 

What if conscription is brought back in and all the draft dodgers suddenly come out as gay?

 

Funny thing is, I would have thought that in a combat situation, I'd be more bothered by the fact that I'm trying to kill people (and they're trying to kill me) then whether anyone in my team might possibly view me in a sexual context.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Hotdrink

[Slartibartfast]

I do want to mention...subscribing to the Army/Navy/Air Force Times does not require actually having served or currently serving in the Military.

 

The Army Times is a decent publication in its own right. I wouldn't consider a magazine poll to be very reflective of the opinion of those serving.

[Mrs Mungo]

I do want to mention...subscribing to the Army/Navy/Air Force Times does not require actually having served or currently serving in the Military.

 

The Army Times is a decent publication in its own right. I wouldn't consider a magazine poll to be very reflective of the opinion of those serving.

 

Maybe we could do a poll seeing how many real military families subscribe? We don't. Everyone I know who subscribes is a retired government contractor but that's purely anecdotal, of course.

[Peela]

I'm not so sure that saying that people in other countries don't like "Americans as a whole, but like us individually" is such a good thing.

 

I also don't think it's such a good thing that they "like" us because we spend money in their country.

 

My grandfather, who is a raging racist, hates black people, but when he's face-to-face with a black person he will admit that "that" black person is ok. So, even though he knows and likes a lot of black people as individuals, he still is a horrible racist.

 

So, sure, other people from other countries can say, "Oh, now that I've met you, I like you," but at the same time they can still have prejudices and racism against Americans.

 

And liking Americans because they spend money could mean they're puting on their game face and are being nice to the money. Sort of like when you're extra nice to your boss (who is a real jerk) because you need the job, even if you can't stand the boss.

 

Anyway--I have no idea what people from other nations think about Americans. But the argument that "they like us when they get to know individuals" or "they like us sooo much because we're giving them money" doesn't necessarily equate to them really liking us.

 

I think it's quite different to feel negative toward a country because of their policies towards other countries, their domination of many world affairs, the wars they enter, and their attitudes which can seem superior and arrogant....and feeling negative toward a people simply because of the colour of their skin and nothing else. Completely different and incomparable prejudices. What we are saying is that there is a prejudice against the image of America, not the individuals, and that is not the same at all as saying we have a prejudice against the image of a race because of the colour of their skin.

 

I find it interesting that Americans can get so defensive about this. It is just what is and many countries also get upset with their own governments over the same issues they get upset with America. Would you rather know or not? The original question of the OP seemed genuine and sincere enough.The defensivness to the answers has just made it even more obvious as to why the image is there.

[Laura Corin]

It is just what is and many countries also get upset with their own governments over the same issues they get upset with America.

 

The British government is in trouble with a large portion of its electorate about the war in Iraq; similar American policies are also opposed by those same British people.

 

Laura

[lionfamily1999]

I think it's quite different to feel negative toward a country because of their policies towards other countries, their domination of many world affairs, the wars they enter, and their attitudes which can seem superior and arrogant....and feeling negative toward a people simply because of the colour of their skin and nothing else. Completely different and incomparable prejudices. What we are saying is that there is a prejudice against the image of America, not the individuals, and that is not the same at all as saying we have a prejudice against the image of a race because of the colour of their skin.

 

I find it interesting that Americans can get so defensive about this. It is just what is and many countries also get upset with their own governments over the same issues they get upset with America. Would you rather know or not? The original question of the OP seemed genuine and sincere enough.The defensivness to the answers has just made it even more obvious as to why the image is there.

I agree with you. I'm not big on China. They pollute too much, they're oppressive, they took all the manufacturing jobs, etc. However, I have no problem with Chinese individuals. The destruction their country is responsible is separate from them as people.

 

Of course, I would be surprised if someone from China wouldn't take offense, or at least get defensive, when faced with what I just typed. Even if they agreed with me, it's sort of like calling someone's mother fat. Their mom could be roughly four hundred pounds over weight, but you still can't call their mother fat, unless you want to deal with them, iykwIm.

[IsabelC]

I don't get the sense that Americans are necessarily more defensive than people of other nationalities, I suspect it's more that they are (on average - warning: gross generalization coming up) more patriotic and therefore more bothered by actual or perceived criticism. The reason I don't feel offended if people criticize Australia isn't because I'm less defensive than others (believe me, I feel very defensive when people ignorantly criticize home schooling lol), it's because I just don't take it personally. I might think "Yes, that criticism is very valid" or "Nope, don't agree with that" and that's it. A lot of people here - at least in my particular social milieu - don't even particularly identify by nationality so it's just not such a concern.

 

 

 

Btw, did you know there is actually a book called Why do People Hate America (I haven't read it so can't say whether it's interesting or a load of moopoo).

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Maybe we could do a poll seeing how many real military families subscribe? We don't. Everyone I know who subscribes is a retired government contractor but that's purely anecdotal, of course.

 

Actually, the Military Times Poll-and it was a 2007 Year End Military Times Poll gave the following explanation of how they conducted the poll.

 

HOW WE DID IT

 

On Dec. 10, we e-mailed a selection of active-duty, National Guard, reserve and retired military subscribers of our four military weeklies, asking them to take part in our annual poll. The respondents were directed to an independent polling firm that hosted the survey and tabulated the results. The poll was closed Dec. 17.

This is the fifth year that the active-duty force has been surveyed. It’s the first year for the retired military and the Guard and reserve. E-mails went to 14,552 active-duty subscribers, with 1,468 responding; to 5,595 Guard and reserve subscribers, with 945 responding; and to 8,999 retirees, with 2,937 responding.

The margin of error in the survey of active-duty and Guard and reserve members is plus or minus 3 percentage points at the 95 percent confidence interval, meaning there is a 95 percent probability that results of the poll are accurate within 3 percentage points. The margin of error for the retired military poll is 2 percentage points.

Those polled differ from the military as a whole in important ways — they tend to be older, higher in rank and more career-oriented.

Even so, it is perhaps the most representative independent sample possible because of the inherent challenges in polling service members, according to polling experts and military sociologists. The annual poll has come to be viewed by some as a barometer of the professional career military.

 

 

If you would now please visit the Military Times website at militarycity.com/polls/index.php#2004 you can read for yourself the results of the question at hand. The results are divided into to the three categories mentioned above and not combined. Therefore contractors' and retired military members' responses are kept separate.

 

The poll response runs at upward of 50% of people in each category not wanting openly homosexual people to serve in the military.

 

Whether I agree with this or not is irrelevant when attempting to discuss the opinions of the military. So before bashing sources let's actually double check them. The military has one public voice and many private voices and those that don't speak openly on this board are not necessarily quiet because you are speaking for them.

Edited January 8, 2010 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[Rosie_0801]

I agree with you. I'm not big on China. They pollute too much, they're oppressive, they took all the manufacturing jobs, etc. However, I have no problem with Chinese individuals. The destruction their country is responsible is separate from them as people.

 

Of course, I would be surprised if someone from China wouldn't take offense, or at least get defensive, when faced with what I just typed. Even if they agreed with me, it's sort of like calling someone's mother fat. Their mom could be roughly four hundred pounds over weight, but you still can't call their mother fat, unless you want to deal with them, iykwIm.

 

 

Sure, except the OP *asked.* What if she came here and said "I truly want to know your opinion. Do you think my Mamma is fat?" She'd probably get opinions, huh? What if her sister got on here and said "What rude people you are! How dare you say my Mamma is fat!" What would we reply? "Hey, your sister asked, we answered her question. If you don't want to know our opinion of your Mamma's waist measurements, don't read this thread! Nobody made you read it, that's your responsibility OP's Sister!"

 

I don't get the sense that Americans are necessarily more defensive than people of other nationalities, I suspect it's more that they are (on average - warning: gross generalization coming up) more patriotic and therefore more bothered by actual or perceived criticism. The reason I don't feel offended if people criticize Australia isn't because I'm less defensive than others (believe me, I feel very defensive when people ignorantly criticize home schooling lol), it's because I just don't take it personally. I might think "Yes, that criticism is very valid" or "Nope, don't agree with that" and that's it. A lot of people here - at least in my particular social milieu - don't even particularly identify by nationality so it's just not such a concern.

 

Yup. We don't really understand why Americans (or anyone else) really get caught up with this whole patriotism thing. Our government tries it on us now and then. Some people seem to go for it as an excuse to bag whoever they want to bag (Muslims rather than Asians, these days) but for the most part we laugh at our government when they try that.

 

Rosie

Edited January 8, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Mrs Mungo]

If you would now please visit the Military Times website at militarycity.com/polls/index.php#2004 you can read for yourself the results of the question at hand. The results are divided into to the three categories mentioned above and not combined. Therefore contractors' and retired military members' responses are kept separate.

 

Thanks, I actually looked for this information and could not find it on the site (I tried LOADS of different searches to try and come up with it). That's why I said "I believe," rather than stating it was a fact.

 

The poll response runs at upward of 50% of people in each category not wanting openly homosexual people to serve in the military.

 

Whether I agree with this or not is irrelevant when attempting to discuss the opinions of the military. So before bashing sources let's actually double check them.

 

How was I "bashing" the source? I asked a question, I could not find the information on the site, as I said.

 

The military has one public voice and many private voices and those that don't speek openly on this board are not necessarily quiet because you are speaking for them.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're implying here. Once again, I don't claim to be the voice of the military, I claim the military is not a homogeneous organization but a diverse one.

[TravelingChris]

I took a sociology class on the military back in the 80's. I remember reading a large scale study of the officers of the different branches. The Navy was most liberal and the Air Force was the most conservative. It wasn't why my dh joined the AF but having spent 23 years moving place to place with him, I would have to agree that my experience with the military has been that we have felt completely comfortable in the community and we are conservatives. The few Navy people we did meet (at NATO) were more liberal than the typical AF person. I tend to have met mostly officer and upper enlisted members and their spouses just because of the places where my dh worked (technical areas) tended to be officer dominated and the enlisted were usually better educated than the average and also older.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Thanks, I actually looked for this information and could not find it on the site (I tried LOADS of different searches to try and come up with it). That's why I said "I believe," rather than stating it was a fact.

 

Fairly simple "Military Times 2007 Poll" and then track to the source.

How was I "bashing" the source? I asked a question, I could not find the information on the site, as I said.

 

By implying that first-the service members were not honestly responding and secondly by implying, as I quoted above, that a poll of "real military families" might be different as you knew no active duty members who subscribed. Thereby implying that MT was surveying someone other than who they said their responders were.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're implying here. Once again, I don't claim to be the voice of the military, I claim the military is not a homogeneous organization but a diverse one.

 

The tone you use implies that you speak for all military wives/spouses and that you do so with the authority of time and experience. There are many service members' families here and I'm fairly certain not all agree with you. Many of the military wives I've had the pleasure to know certainly don't agree with everything you say. You tend, in your style, to be very confusing as to when you are presenting your personal opinion and when you are endeavoring to represent military wives as a whole.

[Mrs Mungo]

By implying that first-the service members were not honestly responding and secondly by implying, as I quoted above, that a poll of "real military families" might be different as you knew no active duty members who subscribed. Thereby implying that MT was surveying someone other than who they said their responders were.

 

1. I think we are partly talking at cross-purposes here because there is more than one poll involved in some of those posts. Questioning is not bashing. I questioned the poll, true, but I did not find the information. The quote regarding whether the members were honestly responding (I have to assume this applies to whether or not they would leave the service?) was referenced with a direct quote from the article posted in the first place. Yeah, people say they would leave the service but Hollywood liberals said they would move to France if Bush was re-elected. Did they? No. Did military members leave in droves when women were admitted to West Point? No. It's not a matter of honest or dishonest answers, it's a matter of expressing a strong opinion v. what you would really do. I can tell you what I THINK I would do in all sorts of situations but when face-to-face with a situation I might do something entirely different. kwim?

 

 

The tone you use implies that you speak for all military wives/spouses and that you do so with the authority of time and experience. There are many service members' families here and I'm fairly certain not all agree with you. Many of the military wives I've had the pleasure to know certainly don't agree with everything you say. You tend, in your style, to be very confusing as to when you are presenting your personal opinion and when you are endeavoring to represent military wives as a whole.

 

Many military members and wives post here and post all sorts of opinions on all sorts of matters. When it comes to my posts *here* (as opposed to other places) I am often confronting an idea that "EVERYONE in the military believes X" or "ANYONE who is patriotic would believe Y," I usually seek to press the point that the military is a diverse population with diverse opinions.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

1. I think we are partly talking at cross-purposes here because there is more than one poll involved in some of those posts. Questioning is not bashing. I questioned the poll, true, but I did not find the information. The quote regarding whether the members were honestly responding (I have to assume this applies to whether or not they would leave the service?) was referenced with a direct quote from the article posted in the first place. Yeah, people say they would leave the service but Hollywood liberals said they would move to France if Bush was re-elected. Did they? No. Did military members leave in droves when women were admitted to West Point? No. It's not a matter of honest or dishonest answers, it's a matter of expressing a strong opinion v. what you would really do. I can tell you what I THINK I would do in all sorts of situations but when face-to-face with a situation I might do something entirely different. kwim?

 

I suspect that at this point we have to trust the people who were polled and assume their statements on the poll mean that it would be their desire to leave the military under these circumstances. You are correct-they may opt to suck up their dislike and keep their "sure thing" paycheck in order to feed their families. The poll still tells you what they think about this proposal.

 

Many military members and wives post here and post all sorts of opinions on all sorts of matters. When it comes to my posts *here* (as opposed to other places) I am often confronting an idea that "EVERYONE in the military believes X" or "ANYONE who is patriotic would believe Y," I usually seek to press the point that the military is a diverse population with diverse opinions.

 

Yes, the military is diverse. But you are still presenting your personal opinion. Your opinion may or may not reflect the opinion of other military wives. Unfortunately, that is how it often comes across. In my experience with military wives, your opinions would be deemed outside the mainstream.

[Jill- OK]

No, I wouldn't. :) I was basing my comment on a few comments I have heard, which provides information, but not in a very scientific way. Even if I had a survey form collected from each member of the Australian armed forces, I still wouldn't. There are certain subjects I prefer not to discuss with Americans :)

 

Rosie

 

Um, okay.

 

:confused:

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes, the military is diverse. But you are still presenting your personal opinion. Your opinion may or may not reflect the opinion of other military wives. Unfortunately, that is how it often comes across. In my experience with military wives, your opinions would be deemed outside the mainstream.

 

I was a La Leche League Leader for several years. I once had a neighbor who, at a social gathering, went on and on one day about extended nursing and how bad it was and she never knew *anyone* who had nursed beyond a year, etc. BUT, everyone else there had nursed their kids for at least a year and a half. She didn't know it, because they didn't discuss it with her. They knew she thought it was weird and disgusting and outside the mainstream.

 

I know a lot of conservative military wives, that's true. I know a lot of liberal military wives. It's my experience the latter keep their mouths shut unless they know you're not going to think ill of them or their opinions.

[Jill- OK]

I have this foggy notion that nobody likes Americans and that everyone thinks Americans are stupid and lazy. I really dont know why I think this, so I thought it would be nice to know what others think.

 

I know non-Americans who aren't crazy about our culture, lol, and I know others who love aspects of it, and make a point of vacationing here.

 

::Shrug::

 

It's not new...there has always been a certain anti-American sentiment around, but I think the face of it has changed, somewhat, in the last couple of decades.

[Slartibartfast]

The tone you use implies that you speak for all military wives/spouses and that you do so with the authority of time and experience. There are many service members' families here and I'm fairly certain not all agree with you. Many of the military wives I've had the pleasure to know certainly don't agree with everything you say. You tend, in your style, to be very confusing as to when you are presenting your personal opinion and when you are endeavoring to represent military wives as a whole.

 

All she said was that it was diverse. She has stated multiple times that she wasn't speaking for soldiers or their families.

 

I don't see what is confusing about it at all.

 

She is a military wife, she has the right to her opinion.

 

I am really getting irritated with how y'all are talking to her. She isn't a super conservative, not all military people are.

 

Get over it.

 

 

You are telling her she can't speak "for the military" (which she isn't doing) while speaking for "friends" who aren't even here?? :lol:

Edited January 9, 2010 by Sis

[Rosie_0801]

Originally Posted by Rosie_0801

No, I wouldn't. :) I was basing my comment on a few comments I have heard, which provides information, but not in a very scientific way. Even if I had a survey form collected from each member of the Australian armed forces, I still wouldn't. There are certain subjects I prefer not to discuss with Americans :)

 

Rosie

 

 

Um, okay.

 

:confused:

 

 

Look, I'm not being a shmuck. The guys your hubby work with probably think he's a top bloke, but if they didn't and are being nice to his face for the sake of politeness, would you really want to know? Open and honest communication isn't always good, especially when you have to live and work with people. I'm trying to be polite, that's all; and I'm quite willing not to be if I think it's going to help in some way.

 

Rosie

Edited January 9, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Jill- OK]

[/i]

 

 

 

 

 

Look, I'm not being a shmuck. The guys your hubby work with probably think he's a top bloke, but if they didn't and are being nice to his face for the sake of politeness, would you really want to know? Open and honest communication isn't always good, especially when you have to live and work with people.

 

Rosie

 

I wasn't saying anything about what anyone who worked with my husband thought of him...I thought we were talking opinions about the U.S.? The military?

 

I was just wondering about the scope of your comment. (How many folks? Across how many branches?) That's it.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Jill, OK

[Mrs Mungo]

All she said was that it was diverse. She has stated multiple times that she wasn't speaking for soldiers or their families.

 

I don't see what is confusing about it at all.

 

She is a military wife, she has the right to her opinion.

 

I am really getting irritated with how y'all are talking to her. She isn't a super conservative, not all military people are.

 

Get over it.

 

 

You are telling her she can't speak "for the military" (which she isn't doing) while speaking for "friends" who aren't even here?? :lol:

 

Apparently, me, my dh and our other moderate and liberal military members and their wife friends are figments of my imagination. I really thought calling my views "outside the mainstream" is beyond the pale. How does not sharing the opinion of the vast majority of the 50% (you said around fifty percent, right) who think gays should not be allowed to serve in the military make me outside of the mainstream?

[Rosie_0801]

I wasn't saying anything about what anyone who worked with my husband thought of him...I thought we were talking opinions about the U.S.? The military?

 

I was just wondering about the scope of your comment. (How many folks? Across how many branches?) That's it.

 

I can't give any more scientific information than it appears to be a widely held opinion, and that's not very scientific.

 

Rosie

[Garga]

I think it's quite different to feel negative toward a country because of their policies towards other countries, their domination of many world affairs, the wars they enter, and their attitudes which can seem superior and arrogant....and feeling negative toward a people simply because of the colour of their skin and nothing else. Completely different and incomparable prejudices. What we are saying is that there is a prejudice against the image of America, not the individuals, and that is not the same at all as saying we have a prejudice against the image of a race because of the colour of their skin.

 

So, you're saying that there's a prejudice against our government's policies? I thought the OP was asking if other nations thought that individual Americans were stupid. That's what I was answering. I understand that people can like the American people, but still think the American gov't isn't any good.

 

I find it interesting that Americans can get so defensive about this. It is just what is and many countries also get upset with their own governments over the same issues they get upset with America. Would you rather know or not? The original question of the OP seemed genuine and sincere enough.The defensivness to the answers has just made it even more obvious as to why the image is there.

 

I haven't noticed a lot of defensiveness for the people answering the OP. (I have only skimmed over the bizarre argument about gay people--what's the OP's question have to do with that?? Maybe that's where you're seeing the defensiveness? I haven't bothered reading all that.) And I sure hope you didn't think I was defensive, because I certainly don't feel that way.

 

There were 2 points repeatedly brought up somewhere near the beginning of this thread that people liked individual Americans, or that they liked Americans because the Americans spend money in their country.

 

I was just commenting that saying you like individual people of a group doesn't always mean that you like the whole group. So a person could like "a few" Americans, but still really think Americans are stupid and immoral, etc.

 

Or a person could be liking what that individual is doing for them (like the people who like it when Americans spend money) without liking the group at all, and still considering the Americans to be stupid, brash, having a superiority complex, etc.

 

I was just looking at the logic of the argument (and when I say argument, I just mean "making a case" not being angry and having an argument.) I'm not saying at all how other people view Americans. I was just saying that liking a few Americans or liking the fact that Americans spend money doesn't conclusively mean you don't think Americans are stupid, etc.

 

I was just being overly logical and saying that A + B doesn't necessarily add up to C. Didn't mean to come across upset about anything.

[Jill- OK]

...about my husband hearing 'open and honest communication' from co-workers, lol; years of serving with non-American forces have proven that many of them are quite comfortable expressing their sentiments (good and otherwise) about the U.S. :D

[Stacy in NJ]

It deal with the perception of Americans in Europe and Anti-Americanism.

 

It's a very fun, witty, and sweet movie. Here's a link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109219/

 

 

Here's a trailer: http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi4223140121/

 

Also, here's a great book on the same topic: http://www.amazon.com/Reconstructing-America-Symbol-Modern-Thought/dp/0300084536/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263001585&sr=8-1

Edited January 9, 2010 by Stacy in NJ
more

[Melissa in Australia]

Yup. We don't really understand why Americans (or anyone else) really get caught up with this whole patriotism thing. Our government tries it on us now and then. Some people seem to go for it as an excuse to bag whoever they want to bag (Muslims rather than Asians, these days) but for the most part we laugh at our government when they try that.

 

Rosie

 

I really think you have a point here. us Aussies have a great sense of humor, and don't mind laughing at ourselves and our government. I think this freedom to laugh at ourselves makes Australia the best country in the world. I really think we are world leaders in this regard.:lol::lol::lol: every Australian knows we are the real world leaders, just listen to any Aussie news report. :lol:

 

 

personally I will take Aussie freedom over America's version of freedom any day!

[lionfamily1999]

Sure, except the OP *asked.* What if she came here and said "I truly want to know your opinion. Do you think my Mamma is fat?" She'd probably get opinions, huh? What if her sister got on here and said "What rude people you are! How dare you say my Mamma is fat!" What would we reply? "Hey, your sister asked, we answered her question. If you don't want to know our opinion of your Mamma's waist measurements, don't read this thread! Nobody made you read it, that's your responsibility OP's Sister!"

 

Rosie

:lol: Except that people do get offended. Isn't that why little white lies are considered little?

 

I was just agreeing with Peela while also pointing out where the defensiveness could come from.

[Peela]

I really think you have a point here. us Aussies have a great sense of humor, and don't mind laughing at ourselves and our government. I think this freedom to laugh at ourselves makes Australia the best country in the world. I really think we are world leaders in this regard.:lol::lol::lol: every Australian knows we are the real world leaders, just listen to any Aussie news report. :lol:

 

 

personally I will take Aussie freedom over America's version of freedom any day!

 

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol:Love it, Melissa.

I am pretty sure most Aussies wouldn't want to be in America for anything more than a holiday for anything. But that could be a case of the devil you know. We do not tend to take our politiicians very seriously at all and to us they are just the bloke next door who happened to end up politician. We do find it surprising that Americans kind of seem to worship their politicians to almost godlike status at times- or at least movie star status. But thats just one of those American quirks.

[IsabelC]

I am pretty sure most Aussies wouldn't want to be in America for anything more than a holiday for anything.

Well most Americans probably wouldn't want to live here either, which is probably just as well considering there are 20 million of us and 300 million of them, so we'd all have to learn to speak American instead of Strine :tongue_smilie:

[lionfamily1999]

Well most Americans probably wouldn't want to live here either, which is probably just as well considering there are 20 million of us and 300 million of them, so we'd all have to learn to speak American instead of Strine :tongue_smilie:

:lol:

 

I know plenty of Aussie wannabees, but don't tell ;)

[Rosie_0801]

I really think you have a point here. us Aussies have a great sense of humor, and don't mind laughing at ourselves and our government. I think this freedom to laugh at ourselves makes Australia the best country in the world. I really think we are world leaders in this regard.:lol:every Australian knows we are the real world leaders, just listen to any Aussie news report. :lol:

!

 

Oh the Australian sense of humour :lol:

 

And our system of spelling is better. "Humour" looks so much classier with a "u."

 

 

:lol:

 

I know plenty of Aussie wannabees, but don't tell ;)

 

:rofl: Are you serious? That's the funniest thing I've heard all week!

 

:D

 

Rosie

[Melissa in Australia]

And our system of spelling is better. "Humour" looks so much classier with a "u."

 

 

 

Rosie

:blush: Oh, my! I used spell check!:leaving:

[Rosie_0801]

:blush: Oh, my! I used spell check!:leaving:

 

Aw, it was sweet of you to switch dialects in honour of our hosts.

 

:D

Rosie

[IsabelC]

Don't laugh, but I adjust my posts here to make them look easier for the majority to read, using -or instead of -our and -ize instead of -ise. I try to remember to use the American words, eg diaper for nappy, although I must confess I still find it hard to remember the words for different school years (took me a while to realize that high school over there starts in grade 9!).

[keptwoman]

Don't laugh, but I adjust my posts here to make them look easier for the majority to read, using -or instead of -our and -ize instead of -ise. I try to remember to use the American words, eg diaper for nappy, although I must confess I still find it hard to remember the words for different school years (took me a while to realize that high school over there starts in grade 9!).

I never do. It's good for them to see the PROPER way to write. :D We are superior in spelling as well as humour, healthcare, guns and politics.